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[SR5] Wireless bonuses?

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Twilight

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« on: <02-23-14/1611:49> »
Not quite a rules question (since the rules are pretty clrear)...

It's clear that the designers decided that devices with wireless on get a bonus because they can be hacked.  However, can anyone come up with any explanation of why this would be the case?  If anything, wired should have an advantage over wireless (less interference, higher bandwidth, etc).

jim1701

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« Reply #1 on: <02-23-14/1619:23> »
In some cases it isn't clear to me while in others I can totally see the benefit.  For example a medkit with Matrix access to online medical databases would totally be more effective than one limited to its own on-board software.  OTOH why reaction enhancers and wired reflexes need the Matrix to work together completely baffles me. 

Sendaz

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« Reply #2 on: <02-23-14/1621:17> »
This has been argued on many threads and will probably continue to do so.

One explanation is that some items can work better with more data, data coming from the Matrix via the wireless connection.

Your First Aid module for example has a fair sized database built in but with wireless it can consult even more databases, so it can deal with all sorts of injuries, toxins, etc..

Your smartgun is supposed to benefit from the wireless because then it can access additional information like wind speed/direction and similar to adjust for this.  How this applies indoors is one of the sore points for this explanation.

But a good few of the bonuses do tend to leave one scratching their head going did this really need to be wireless bonus and could it not have been done in another way?

End of the day, it's your table.  Adjust to taste and have fun.
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WellsIDidIt

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« Reply #3 on: <02-23-14/1635:35> »
There is no explanation for it. There is a thread on this in the Gamemaster forum with more discussion. Wireless bonus was a nifty idea, and there are a couple that make sense, but for the most part there is absolutely  no reason the bonus is restricted to wireless. We have imaging systems now that can calculate wind speeds, there is no reason that 60 years from now you have to access the matrix to do that. Databases for medkits are similar to me. Why does the database offer no dice bonuses at all (just a limit increase) unless its hooked to the matrix? I can see it providing half rating, but none. That seems odd to me.

Likewise, the hazmat suits. The environment analyzer has no onboard database? Why can't we hook a datadrive to it?

It's all just hacker love, and they really didn't need it to begin with.

Novocrane

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« Reply #4 on: <02-23-14/1802:17> »
When I look at wireless bonuses, the problem seems to have been one of communication between devs. Some of them are obviously bonuses for being connected to the matrix, while others would work better as bonuses for being connected to your PAN.
If they had actually created PAN bonuses, too, this wouldn't be a problem ...

WellsIDidIt

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« Reply #5 on: <02-23-14/1918:03> »
It feels like it was designed so every network has to travel over the matrix, which is illogical to me. I think we should have PAN bonuses and DNI bonuses on top of wireless bonuses.

Namikaze

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« Reply #6 on: <02-23-14/1919:05> »
One explanation for it is that the device's processor is more limited than the cloud processing power of the Matrix.  Therefore, the devices get a performance enhancement when processing data via wireless.
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WellsIDidIt

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« Reply #7 on: <02-23-14/1940:54> »
Pretty flawed explanation considering what devices are already able to process in the universe though. It only works if we ignore the past.

RHat

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« Reply #8 on: <02-23-14/2023:28> »
Pretty flawed explanation considering what devices are already able to process in the universe though. It only works if we ignore the past.

Not really.  We simply have to assume that what they're doing NOW is more processing intensive than what they are or have been capable of in the past from an in-setting standpoint.  Just because commlinks have a lot of processing power doesn't remotely mean there can't be things they're insufficient for.
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ProfessorCirno

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« Reply #9 on: <02-23-14/2104:55> »
Other then one or two small edge cases, I've found it rather easy in general to see how/why the wireless bonuses would work.  But really, that's not the problem.  The game isn't - and can't ever - break something into minute details for every single case and example.  If you're onboard with the game mechanic, then the fluff will likely flow to you no problem.  If you dislike the game mechanic, then the fluff won't sit right.  It's so very rarely an actual issue with the fluff, especially given how mutable it's intentionally left.

WellsIDidIt

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« Reply #10 on: <02-23-14/2110:57> »
The problem is that they used to have the processing power to do it themselves. Now, in the future of the setting, they can't make processors that small? That isn't logical. It's fundamentally flawed. SR 3 (10 years ago in setting) mentioned the smartlink calculating windage. Now, it can't, and we have to connect to the matrix to get windage? That doesn't make sense.

It's not about commlinks, it's about the individual items. We can look at individual bits that do far more processing than others would need. We can look at how small storage drives were a decade ago (in setting) and yet now we can't have a database hooked into the medkit? Things are inconsistent and that's an issue.

It sin't a problem with the mechanic. I like the concept of the wireless bonuses a lot. It's just that the fluff behind 95% of them makes me wonder, wait, why couldn't it do that on it's own. Some of them don't even get real fluff to explain it.

ProfessorCirno

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« Reply #11 on: <02-23-14/2147:13> »
There's a few responses here.  I mean, i could launch.

But my actual response inevitably is: Because it's a game.

Every edition has changes.  Some make no sense in comparison to previous editions.  Some things in previous editions won't make sense compared to new ones.  I mean, this goes like 500% for a sci-fi game.  If you went by the stats, half the runners in the world were dwarves for a few years, then suddenly they're all orks, and now they're almost all humans.  I mean, previous editions told us that in dates still in the future we wouldn't have developed wireless internet access yet.  In retrospect that's either quaint or stupid, depending on how generous you're feeling.

But if you really want fluff ansewrs, here we go.

Think of it this way: a few years ago I kept all my data on hard drives, but chunky ones to (that in retrospect held actually very little).  Nowadays I keep most my non-secretive data in emails.  I literally just email myself schedules, work files, important dates, etc.  I don't even OWN physical storage outside of one or two USBs I use to transfer stuff to one of my work computers, which has a janky broken internet connection.  I am not alone in this!  Theoretically this makes me more open to be hacked.  I don't actually care.  Most people don't.  I don't keep a physical contact book.  NOBODY I KNOW keeps a physical booklet with all the contact info for people.  Technically, could my cell phone or my Google account be hacked, giving access to all the various emails or phone numbers I don't care to keep track of?  Yes!  This is a huge security downgrade from literally carrying a book!

It would not in any way, shape, or form surprise me if mandatory net access actually increased in how common it is.  In a setting where the Matrix is intended to be ubiquitous, it would not surprise me in the slightest of stuff was created explicitly to only work fully when connected to it.  For runners, this is the opposite of progress - but this isn't designed for runners.  For the people these products are ACTUALLY manufactured for, everyone from corpsec to civilian gun nuts, this isn't noticeable.  More and more people every day are keeping their credit card and personal info on their cell phones.  Does this seem safer then carrying it in your wallet?  I'm sure lots of people would loudly proclaim: "Good lord, no!"  But it sure is more convenient!  So the new smartlinks are designed explicitly to work over the Matrix,  For Runners this is a potential security hole.  For everyone else, this represents a smartlink that can be surgically implanted into your eye without needing to scoop out the things with a melon baller and replace them with cameras or give you horrifying data ports in your hands.  For runners, having to connect your reaction boosters and wired reflexes to the matrix is a way to access your implements from someone you don't know.  For everyone else, it's  way to ensure your gear is always working at tip top capacity and that potential issues can be fixed through the Matrix without ever requiring you to see the doctor.  And, most importantly, for corps, it means everyone who buys their product is now ALSO a tester and data collector of their product, so hey, they win out all around.

Convenience and profits always win in Shadowrun.  Always.  Every single time they win out. 

The other thing to recall is that you kinda have to push SR4 to the side.  SR4 was where the game started to run away from the "cyberpunk" aspect and embrace the "transhuman" aspect, except those two things are pretty much at odds with each other.  Cyberpunk is almost by definition a dystopia.  It's not a genre where technology owns and always makes everyone's life easier and you never make any sacrifices for it.

And hey, if you want a third excuse/reason, here we go: because cyberpunk is meant to capture the fears of the time and broadcast them onto the future.  In the wake of information theft fears and personal data being sold willy nilly, "your information and personal details are broadcast at all hours" seems like just the thing to add to a dystopia.

WellsIDidIt

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« Reply #12 on: <02-23-14/2203:00> »
Yeah, the "it's beneficial to everyone else" excuse doesn't fly. It's a rather poor attempt to excuse the laziness. You see, obviously it isn't beneficial to everyone else, because runner deckers abuse the other people. Oh sure, Mr. Joe Nobody on the street that doesn't care if he gets hacked because he has .02 nuyen to his name finds it beneficial.

But what about corporate security teams. Why on earth would the corps set their own security up to fail? What benefit is there? There isn't one. What about Military personnel? Again, no reason for it. It makes no sense. Spies? Undercover agents? There are plenty of people it does not make sense for, but the big issue is that there are plenty of devices it doesn't make sense for.

Saying, well I don't care if I get hacked is not an excuse for the sole fact that you don't care if you get hacked. There are people, agencies, and governments that do care if they get hacked. This isn't going to change in 60 years. There is no reason for paramilitary groups to run around as un-secure as possible. No, It's a Game is not an excuse.

As for changes. There is a thing called continuity. It should be kept up. Just because it's a game doesn't mean continuity can be tossed about like a rag doll. When introducing a new mechanic, continuity should definitely be a consideration. Oh, a 10 year old smartlink could do this but we want to make it so it can't now unless it uses some other devices processing power across a wireless connection that is laughably secure. This makes total sense for hardware that's main application is security/paramilitary. Really, that's not a logical thought process at all.

ProfessorCirno

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« Reply #13 on: <02-23-14/2227:19> »
Except it is beneficial to everyone else because it isn't like the corp is having Runs set up against it every day.  Runners are explicitly a very, very stark minority, and it's not like they're doing runs every day.  And paramilitary groups?  Come on, we're doing a run on a local SK station, not literally the dragon's lair itself.  And even if it was?  Do you think major corporations or military groups have never been bitten in the ass by poor security standards?  Really?  In an age where people are more aware then ever of intelligence leaks, you think this is something that doesn't happen?  We have people getting military secrets by burning them onto cds labeled COOL MIX ALBUM #4.

Convenience and profit.  By and large the system works.  The vast majority of the time, the people, agencies, and governments are not being hacked.  That's why corps have spiders, after all.  1% of the time the decker gets through - so you get a better spider.  The benefits are huge - again, corps can receive all data transmitted for data collection on their end.  On user end, smartlinks are smaller and now capable of direct instillation into your actual living eye (something I'm sure wage mages are quite interested in).  You no longer need to visit doctors to get a diagnosis.  I mean, just look at that one.  That's something that's happened IN REAL LIFE.  There's been a plethora of bugs and even some viruses that are transmitted to computers through updating services or packets.  Those services have not stopped - because it's WAY more convenient to keep them on and just deal with the problem every now and then.  It's why places have technical support - because it's easier to let the machine run itself and call in the guy when it breaks rather then lug the system to the guy every single time you need it updated.

You're annoyed that something that exists in real life exists in game.

And you know what?  For all the whinging and bluster?  I've legit never watched a game or even heard of a game where the PC decker started trying to screw with smartlinks.

This is the very definition of inventing a problem that doesn't actually exist.

Twilight

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« Reply #14 on: <02-23-14/2316:16> »
Except it isn't beneficial and doesn't make sense in every case.  Some of the wireless bonuses almost make sense (med kits and the like but they should give you a reduced dice pool bonus without being wireless).  Smartlinks make absolutely no sense to have a wireless bonus - if I run the wire, it should be at least as good as wireless (I can see the extra die for implants).  There are other poorly thought out examples too (I just can't remember them right now as I'm tired).