[firebug]

so now SS weapons not accumulating recoil is completly superflious information, right? 

Yep, SS is back to just being a penalty.

So is that an Action Phase of no firing, or two subsequent Simple Actions of no firing, potentially split over two IPs? I'm still torn myself on which is the fairest.

I'd see it as a whole Action Phase without firing.  Especially when you start getting to really high Initiative scores, the ability to negate your recoil with an Action Phase seems totally fair to me.  It takes a split second or so to correct for recoil in real life.  Even if you had amazing reflexes, it would still take a split second, which I see as reflected by an Action Phase.

Yeah, that's what I'm thinking... I know Xenon said how it's silly for a troll to start getting stupid penalties from just firing a light pistol repeatedly, but considering it'd have to be firing one bullet a second for like 12 seconds, yeah that actually sounds like it'd be hard to control.  I mean, if a turn is 3 seconds, and you have three action phases, that's essentially one second for each shot.

[jim1701]

Given a FA weapon can now rip off constant six round bursts for as long as the ammo holds out is kind of worrying IMO.   

[FasterN8]

I'm totally onboard with the balance considerations mentioned above, but it's worth mentioning that one paradox it creates is that firing your assault rifle in consecutive SA-bursts, (3 rounds per IP) accumulates recoil, while switching to FA and putting out 6 round bursts constantly does not.

Somehow doubling your rate of fire increases your accuracy now.

[ZeConster]

SA bursts means you pull the trigger 3 times, while with FA 6-round bursts you just keep the trigger squeezed. It's finger recoil versus bullet recoil, I guess. But yes, it's weird.

[Agonar]

I'm totally onboard with the balance considerations mentioned above, but it's worth mentioning that one paradox it creates is that firing your assault rifle in consecutive SA-bursts, (3 rounds per IP) accumulates recoil, while switching to FA and putting out 6 round bursts constantly does not.

Somehow doubling your rate of fire increases your accuracy now.

Except that most weapons that can go FA will be doing BF, not SA bursts.  So, they can also lay down continuous BFs without accumulating recoil either.

This recoil errata really seems like a decision made in a moment of confusion.  It doesn't change anything regarding SA bursts, FA (10 round) Bursts, breaks FA (6 round) bursts, and neuters recoil whatsoever with BF and SA weapons. 

As it was before, understanding that you needed a complete Action Phase in which you didn't fire in order to reset recoil, nothing was broken.  Yes, people make the argument that 20 Phases later, a Troll firing a SA weapon might eventually rack up enough recoil that he misses, but it's practically a non-situation.  In that time, no one should be sitting out in the open long enough to allow that many uninterrupted shots.  Maybe someone will have to reload before then, or the target ducks out of sight.  Any number of organic developments to force the SA weapon wielder to reset his recoil.  And if combat develops to that point, well, it's a downside of a SA weapon.  Everyone else will have already had to reload, or come up with some other set of actions in order to reset their recoil multiple times probably.

But this errata actually breaks the 6 rnd FA burst.  And it wasn't even necessary.  If Errata breaks something involved, then something is wrong.

In my Opinion, if you really thought SA was broken, then you could have easily just rules that Single Shots from a SA weapon acted like SS weapons, no recoil.  But anyway.

Since this Errata breaks things in other areas (actually disallowing Adepts from Arcana now, which I also believe was a mistake), I am going to wait to see if this recoil decision is confirmed before I implement it. 

[JackVII]

Since this Errata breaks things in other areas (actually disallowing Adepts from Arcana now, which I also believe was a mistake), I am going to wait to see if this recoil decision is confirmed before I implement it.

Well, that rather depends on which definiton of Magical Skills you are using: the one in the Skills section that directs you to the Magic section for further details or the one in the Magic section.

[Namikaze]

Not to get off topic, but I think the decision to remove Arcana from your available skills if you don't have a Magic rating is a mistake.  The skill description for Arcana has stated before that this is a skill that non-magic users can use to deal with the theorycrafting of magic.  It's about understanding magic, not about manipulating it.  With that said, if they are planning on updating the skill list or adding in something to compensate (perhaps with the Street Grimoire or another errata) then it's not such a big deal.

[Michael Chandra]

Not to get off topic, but I think the decision to remove Arcana from your available skills if you don't have a Magic rating is a mistake.

First of, it hasn't been actively stated that Arcana, which does not use Magic, is unavailable for other characters. Second, page 278 makes clear that Arcana isn't a skill that requires Magic to use.

[JackVII]

In order not to further derail this thread (sorry), I'm going to start another thread about the Magic Skills change so people can hash out that issue.

[Medicineman]

so now SS weapons not accumulating recoil is completly superflious information, right? 

Wait for (the Return of )High Power Ammo in SR5

JahtaHey
Medicineman

[Xenon]

I'm totally onboard with the balance considerations mentioned above, but it's worth mentioning that one paradox it creates is that firing your assault rifle in consecutive SA-bursts, (3 rounds per IP) accumulates recoil, while switching to FA and putting out 6 round bursts constantly does not.

You know, that is how it work in real life as well....

If you have a SA weapon and pull the trigger over and over and over you never take the time to recover the recoil and eventually your aim goes to shit due to fatigue in your arm, vertical kick from the weapon or whatever (depending on how wired you are the time between each round will be 0.375 to 0.75 seconds)

If you have a FA weapon and pull the trigger for a short burst (6 bullets take 0.3 - 0.5 seconds to fire, depending on your rate of fire) and then spend the rest of the action phase not shooting - then you don't suffer from the recoil when you decide to pull the trigger again in the next action phase (depending on how wired you are that would give you a pause between bullets of about 1.1 to 2.6 seconds - or 3 times as long time to recover recoil between bullets compared to the semi-automatic burst example above).

If you have a SA weapon (or BF weapon) and pull the trigger only once and then spend time not shooting (recovering recoil) for at least a simple action you will also not suffer progressive recoil between your shots (depending on how wired you are that would give you a pause between bullets of 1.5 to 3.0 seconds (or 1.3 to 2.8 seconds for BF) - again more than 3 times as long time to recover recoil between bullets compared to the semi-automatic burst example above).


Sniper rifles normally have higher base damage value, base accuracy and armor penetration compared to assault rifles.
Shotguns normally have comparable accuracy but a lot higher base damage value and higher armor penetration compared to SMGs.
Heavy Pistols normally have higher damage value, accuracy and armor penetration value compared to MPs.

Against single extra high armored targets with low defense pool (or no defense pool because they are unaware or surprised) SA weapons often come out ahead. Against single extra high dodge targets FA weapons often come out ahead.

One thing to note about FA weapons is that while it is very possible -it is not trivial- to reach 6 points of recoil compensation. It is even harder to reach 10 points of recoil compensation for moments when you really want to spend the whole action phase doing nothing but shooting bullets (you basically need to invest into strength, replace the sound suppressor for a gasvent, go all out obvious with a gyromount or use one of the few FA weapons that come with a lot of custom built in recoil compensation). Another issue is that you burn ammo faster. Most FA weapons run dry after just 5-6 short bursts. Your players probably have a few extra clips but GMs do (or at least should) put a limit on what you realistically can carry with you.



The difference of using SA weapon over a FA weapon against multiple targets is that you can use a SA weapon against up to three different targets that does not even have to be standing next to each other (but they do need to be at short or medium range as described on p.167 and you need to have a weapon skill of 5+ as described on p.196) while a FA weapon can be used for area of denial by spray n pray a frontal cone area (but this will affect both friends and foe in the area of effect, described on p.179). Both with their different Pros and Cons.



As I see it SA weapons are better suited for skilled and agile (but possible not very strong) sharpshooters while FA weapons are better suited for big and strong (but possible not very agile) commandos.

[martinchaen]

Considering the "split second" mentioned earlier, that is exactly the time it takes to recover from recoil; half a second.

An average real world human being will in Shadowrun terms have between one and two complex actions per 3 seconds (INT 3 + REA 3 = 6 + 1d6). That's two or four simple actions, one every 1.5 or 0.75 seconds. This is, in real world time, more than enough time to control a firearm enough to line up a shot assuming the person has basic (average) firearms training.

Like Xenon, I am for the progressive recoil changes made in the errata. In my opinion, taking that half second to one and a half seconds to regain control of your firearm is more than enough to line up the next shot, be it simple, burst, or full auto.

[FasterN8]

I'm totally onboard with the balance considerations mentioned above, but it's worth mentioning that one paradox it creates is that firing your assault rifle in consecutive SA-bursts, (3 rounds per IP) accumulates recoil, while switching to FA and putting out 6 round bursts constantly does not.

You know, that is how it work in real life as well....

If you have a SA weapon and pull the trigger over and over and over you never take the time to recover the recoil and eventually your aim goes to shit due to fatigue in your arm, vertical kick from the weapon or whatever (depending on how wired you are the time between each round will be 0.375 to 0.75 seconds)

If you have a FA weapon and pull the trigger for a short burst (6 bullets take 0.3 - 0.5 seconds to fire, depending on your rate of fire) and then spend the rest of the action phase not shooting - then you don't suffer from the recoil when you decide to pull the trigger again in the next action phase (depending on how wired you are that would give you a pause between bullets of about 1.1 to 2.6 seconds - or 3 times as long time to recover recoil between bullets compared to the semi-automatic burst example above).

You're missing one very important thing.  That 6 round burst has 6 times the recoil of the individual shots, so even though you have more time to compensate, you're putting 6 times as much mass downrange at the same velocity, so you have a LOT more recoil to compensate for.

The mass differential aside, you should really state your starting assumptions when busting out numbers like that, because I'm not sure how you came up with the intervals between shots.  Here's how I would calculate it:

The AK-47 has a cyclic rate of fire of  600 rounds per minute, making a 6 round burst take .6 seconds.  The M-16 has an upper cyclic rate of fire at 950 rounds per minute making it's 6 round burst about .4 seconds. (ROF numbers drawn from wikipedia)  So we'll assume a .5 second duration for a 6 round burst.

If we assume the character in question takes 2 actions every turn, that's 6 (zero duration) shots for the SA burst shooter over the course of a 3 second turn making it .5 seconds between shots.  The FA burst character takes 2 burst shots each having a duration of .5 seconds each, leaving 1 second between shots. 

So the FA shooter has not 3x, but only 2x as long between shots and has to recover from 6x the recoil.

[martinchaen]

I think it's important to remember the benefits of burst and full auto fire;

Yes, more recoil is introduced by firing more bullets (i.e. more mass) down range.

Yes, this makes the firearm harder to control.

But, the game mechanics represent the benefits of burst and full auto as an increased chance to hit with one or more bullets. With a decent defense pool, you're not likely to do "much" more damage with a full auto burst on average, but you'll be more likely to hit the target.

I do think it odd that the game designers have differentiated between burst fire and full auto mode, however, as most modern firearms capable of these modes only have semi-auto, three-round, and full auto capabilities. To my mind, the fact that there is a difference between Burst Fire and Full Auto as a Simple action is rather odd, as in my experience squeezing the trigger on a fully-automatic weapon is unlikely to fire off more than a few rounds.

In my opinion, the fact that there are no less than 8 fire modes (SS, SA, SA Burst, Simple BF, Complex BF, Simple FA, Complex FA, and Suppressive Fire, not counting multiple attacks) seems somewhat excessive and needlessly complex.

I do however think that the errata on Progressive Recoil more accurately (heh) reflects real world physics. Make of that what you will.

[Namikaze]

In my opinion, the fact that there are no less than 8 fire modes (SS, SA, SA Burst, Simple BF, Complex BF, Simple FA, Complex FA, and Suppressive Fire, not counting multiple attacks) seems somewhat excessive and needlessly complex.

I think you're right.  But I think the names of these actions is only used to reflect the variance in the number of bullets fired.  IMO, if you're firing one bullet it doesn't matter if the weapon is SS, SA, BF, or FA.  It's still one bullet.  So I'd rather see the system like this:

SS becomes a 1
SA becomes a 2
BF becomes a 3
Short FA becomes a 6
FA becomes a 10

The number is used for the purposes of determining the maximum number of bullets that a gun can fire in a single action phase.  It's also a convenient method of remembering the formula for calculating recoil.