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SR5 Adept Power - Critical Strike

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Scawire

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« Reply #15 on: <12-19-13/1352:24> »
I still think if they take the adepts damage out of being based on strength and put into based on Magic rating, troll, human, elf, ork, and dwarf are now all at the same strength the you don't have to worry about the over powered troll with massive strength be a problem.

 Well lets see what cool hand to hand adept abilities come out in the magic book. I suggest look at these post and the GM tool box section and use alot of them I'd love abilities made cannon that way you don't have to sweet talk you GM into letting you use an ability.
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martinchaen

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« Reply #16 on: <12-19-13/1428:26> »
Why is a strong troll adept a problem? He has the potential to deal more damage, that's what his kind does...

All4BigGuns

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« Reply #17 on: <12-19-13/1429:58> »
Why is a strong troll adept a problem? He has the potential to deal more damage, that's what his kind does...

It's not. The problem is that they "nerfed" those that aren't Trolls (or to a lesser extent Orks) into oblivion because of what a Troll is capable of.
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martinchaen

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« Reply #18 on: <12-19-13/1542:43> »
And?

All4BigGuns

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« Reply #19 on: <12-19-13/1551:13> »
It shouldn't have happened. The Human and Elf Unarmed Adepts should be just as viable to hit like freight train as the Ork and Troll versions. As is, the Human and Elf are better served as Street Sams.
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ZeConster

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« Reply #20 on: <12-19-13/1555:02> »
Basically, because Strength instead of Strength/2 is now used, they had to choose between nerfing those without massive Strength or allowing for those with massive Strength to hit harder than any weapon in the book. They chose the first (and this is made more annoying to the nerfed ones by Attribute Boost (Strength) not affecting damage), and this has made many people very angry.

martinchaen

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« Reply #21 on: <12-19-13/1556:20> »
Thanks, ZeConster, for actually explaining the issue.

Tough, is my reply. Everything has a price...

Xenon

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« Reply #22 on: <12-19-13/1711:18> »
adepts can be made very hard to hit
cyborgs can be made very hard to kill

pros and cons

if you want to hit very hard in melee, roll a troll - not an elf.
if you want to be very good at negoatiation, roll an elf - not a troll.

some races are better suited than others for special situations.
you can still make viable characters even if you don't have the most optimal race



if your character concept muhamed ali (or colosus, hulk etc.) that will one punch stuff
...then roll troll and go all out strength

if your character concept is more that of bruce lee (or spiderman, daredevil etc) then you can do that as well.
just stack lots of reaction, intuition, combat sense etc.


being physical adept is broader than just dealing more damage than a sniper rifle with your bare fists.....


if you want a weak lookin old sensei that can kill stuff by using vulcan death grips
.. roll a mystic adept and pick up a few touch based combat spells

ProfessorCirno

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« Reply #23 on: <12-19-13/1842:54> »
The problem is not that "troll is always better," it's more that you need to be a troll or ork just to work it unarmed or with a weapon as an adept.  A non-ork/troll with a katana is likely going to be doing heavy pistol damage at best, but with less -AP, and she needs to be in melee range to do anything, AND the katana is much harder to hide.  And if you're going unarmed, unless you sacrifice a point of Essence for 'ware, you're going to be doing even less damage.

Part of it is that damage is a bit funky in Shadowrun just on the whole.  I mean, your common alley thug with a knife isn't a threat to anyone; he can't really do enough damage with his sssstabs to penetrate the most common armored clothing.

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #24 on: <12-19-13/1849:24> »
So he's a threat to everyone who doesn't walk around with armor jackets, including SINners.
How am I not part of the forum?? O_O I am both active and angry!

All4BigGuns

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« Reply #25 on: <12-19-13/2015:34> »
adepts can be made very hard to hit
cyborgs can be made very hard to kill

pros and cons

if you want to hit very hard in melee, roll a troll - not an elf.
if you want to be very good at negoatiation, roll an elf - not a troll.

some races are better suited than others for special situations.
you can still make viable characters even if you don't have the most optimal race



if your character concept muhamed ali (or colosus, hulk etc.) that will one punch stuff
...then roll troll and go all out strength

if your character concept is more that of bruce lee (or spiderman, daredevil etc) then you can do that as well.
just stack lots of reaction, intuition, combat sense etc.


being physical adept is broader than just dealing more damage than a sniper rifle with your bare fists.....


if you want a weak lookin old sensei that can kill stuff by using vulcan death grips
.. roll a mystic adept and pick up a few touch based combat spells

How about you just stop telling people what to play.

The Unarmed Adept that can do decent damage even as a Human or Elf without being Mr. Roid-Rage Muscle-bound has been a staple character in every edition of the game until the current one. It is utterly ridiculous that they've now destroyed them just because of a couple more points of damage and because of what Orks and Trolls are capable of.
« Last Edit: <12-19-13/2045:21> by All4BigGuns »
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Scawire

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« Reply #26 on: <12-19-13/2029:05> »
I'm fine that you made critical strike the way you did I just hope that the magic based cannon book will up my adepts ability to once again be a great martial artist. So I try to give ideas to the writers and hope one or two of them stick and they go with it.

I'd love to see adept abilities like below

-Magic gets flipped out for strength with this ability, maybe with a cap on how high it can go like magic of 9 or 10 then every level above that does nothing.

-Have a linked meridian strike that is like critical strike but only works if you are using the flipped magic in place of strength maybe use a limit like penetration strike where the max is level 3

-You can train the Shaolin strikes to a bag with snake, spider and other poison on it so if you touch someone they to get poisoned the unlucky hand shaker.

-You can train meridian strikes so if you hit a threshold you paralyze a limb for X combat turns plus 1 combat turn for every net hit above the threshold.


I know I put some else where on this site, I'd love to see these and more adept abilities show up in the next magic book. To me critical strike is not a big deal to me but I hope they fix unarmed combat adepts with the next magic books so you don't have to ork, troll or have to play a mystic adept so your martial art skill rocks.
 8)
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ProfessorCirno

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« Reply #27 on: <12-19-13/2301:34> »
So he's a threat to everyone who doesn't walk around with armor jackets, including SINners.

I didn't say armor jacket.

Knife is STR+1.  Armor clothing is armor rating 6.  Assuming for fairly average stats (2's and 3's in stats and skills) the street thug with the knife can't shank pretty much anyone wearing the barest protection.  I imagine the subway stations are just filled with blunted knives.

It isn't entirely a problem as this is a bit of an edge case, but in general, the weapons and armor are designed around a vaguely defined area, number-wise.  With guns that's fine - they do a set damage you can build things around (so armor clothing on average can soak a light pistol firing standard rounds - makes sense, it's what the armored clothing is FOR).  Things get a bit weird with non-guns though, since those are stat-dependent.  To go by the same number, the average strength needed to keep up with armor would be five, the human non-capped max.  That would give knives, the crappiest weapon, light pistol damage - the crappiest gun.  It would also give a katana SMG damage, which is where you start to hit problems, because again, this is the non-capped max.  Now, if you're a sammy, no worries - grab some 'are, pump your stat.  You can fairly decently start with a +3 to your strrength either through cyberlimb or used muscle aug.  This would give you 11, which at least to my eyes seems about right - it's standard AR damage with non-specialized bullets, and will penetrate most armors.  Of course, remember - you've invested way more then some gunbunny with an Alpha at this point, and it's an automatic, so she can empty their dodge pool if she watches for recoil.  Also recall - this is JUST sammy.  If you're an adept, you likely do NOT have that strength boost, but you do have Critical Strike to add the +1, so now you're at 9, which puts you down lower again.

Now, if you go ork or troll, life gets easier.  The ork is going to add 2 to that number so he's doing sniper rifle damage, which is very good indeed, though I would wager he's spent more then enough resources to earn that (having had both his race and his stats locked in).  The troll is going to be doing a LOT of damage, but he's had to give up his A priority to do so, which is no small matter.

This brings me to the problem: it's exceptionally demanding for a dwarf, human, or elf to hit proficiency levels of damage if they go melee, which I am assuming was not the intention.  Every time I've toyed with making a melee dude, I always end up with ork sammy.  When I make adept I start staring at 'ware and fail to convince myself I can do without.  When I go human I stare at my strength and sigh because it's not enough.

In short, melee seems build for goblinized sammies.  Others need not really apply, unless you're going monowhip (which I hate and would nerf in a heartbeat) or shock damage (which seems niche).

martinchaen

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« Reply #28 on: <12-19-13/2320:43> »
Embrace change, All4BigGuns; living in the past gets you nothing but nostalgia. And you might want to take a closer look at what people are posting; no one said that you had to play anything a certain way. In fact, you are equally guilty of this by exclaiming "Oh my lord, Trolls make all other metatypes unplayable!!oneone!11..." [/sarcasm].

And y'all can argue numbers all night, but unless the Bitch Goddess of Luck is on your side, stats mean squat. So pick a character, come up with a background, and then make the game stats fit that concept as closely as possible within the rules as set forth by your GM, and get on with the playing. Oh, I'm sorry, except you, All4BigGuns; I wouldn't presume to tell you how to play. Flame on.

All4BigGuns

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« Reply #29 on: <12-19-13/2346:14> »
I did not say that "Trolls make everything else unplayable". I said that the way the rules changed has made an entire character archetype (the Non-Musclehead, Non-RoidRage Unarmed Adept) that has been a staple of the game throughout its history untenable.

Aside from compensating for Trolls (silly as it is considering that they're the highest Priority--and highest BP under the previous edition's system--'race'), what other reason could there be? I mean come on, Human and Elf would be getting maybe 3 more damage at the absolute natural maximum Strength with Ork maybe getting 4. Big fragging whoop. With how much higher defense pools are in the new edition, there will be fewer net hits to add to damage, so modified DVs would pretty much be a wash.

By the way, Xenon was, in fact, telling people how to play.
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