[seal]

I just wish they'd errata the Sustaining Focus also limit spell HITS to it's rating, as well as Force.

As written, a high Edge character can in fact generally afford to spend it to pretty much guarantee four hits on, say, Improved Reflexes. Even with a Force 1 spell in a Force 1 Sustaining Focus. It is an mechanically efficient use for Edge.

Most GMs I know do in fact limit hits to the Focus rating, but that's a house rule, not what's actually written.


-k

Limiting hits to the foci force level is not needed. If you have a player that is burning all his edge or most of it to get the best results it is because to are not putting the fear of having their spells dispelled with counterspelling. Remember it is still a force 1 spell and will resist dispelling attempts as a force one spell. I promise that if you start to dispel his edge improved force one spells a few times that they will stop burning all/or most of their edge in this fashion.    

[Nomad Zophiel]

OK, I think the disconnect here between Max and I is in what we mean by overpowered. Max seems to be using the word overpowered in an absolute sense. Anything that will KO a character in one shot is overpowered. Feel free to correct me on that, Max. That's just how I'm reading your side.

What I mean by not overpowered is that Magic is comparable to other alternatives for doing that same thing. That it is powerful, but it is balanced compared to other powerful things PC's can do. For any given effect, look at all the ways of doing it. In this case that effect is to knock someone out with stun damage. If the total benefit minus the total cost is significantly different for one particular option, its unbalanced. I generally use BP for comparison because its the one place that hardware (costs money) and magic (costs Karma) can be compared.

Take the emotitoy as the most obvious example. It provides a +6 to social rolls for 600 nuyen. So the benefit and the cost are pretty straight forward.
BP/bonus point = .02

Empathy Software on its own costs 2100 for rating 6 but you also need a commlink and OS to run it on. So a Novatech Airware, IRIS Orb and rank 3 Empathy 'ware costs a total of 2,850.
BP/point = .16

An Adept with Magic 3 can get three levels of Kinesics. The Adept Quality and the magic score cost a total of 25 BP. Kinesics eats half of that.
BP/Point=4.16

Glamour provides a similar +3 at 15 BP.
BP/point=5

Vomerovasal Organ provides a +2 for 10 BP but also provides a +3 to sense rolls based on smell and has several drawbacks. As a GM I'd say that pretty much anywhere outdoors in seattle smells bad enough to provide penalties. So the power fails outside and the character has to wear a mask.
BP/point = about 5

Tailored Pheromones cost 15,000 per level and .2 Essence/level.
BP/Point=3
Essence/Point=.2

Enhanced Pheromone Receptors bioware gives up to a +2, has less downside than the Vomeronasal Organ and still provides the perception bonus. It costs 15,000 nuyen and .1 Essence.
BP/Point=1.5
Ess/Point=.05

When you break it down that way, its pretty clear which one of these things is unbalanced. The bioware may be cheaper by a factor of two but the Empathy Software in any form is off by a factor of 30. The Emotitoy is cheaper by a factor of 250. That's unbalanced.

With the combat example that we've already beaten to death, mage damage is cleary not off by a factor of 30. A character starting with Magic 6 and 10 spells is 105 BP into being a Mage (discounting other attributes and skills) and has more or less given up on cyberwear entirely. So let's call the base cost for that stunbolt 10.5 BP. It does as much damage as a Stick'n'shock round (give or take a DV point or two per hit) on average. It also inflicts a point or two on the caster per shot. The Mage must use 100% natural line of sight. Also remember that everything that improves Magic costs Karma. Gunslingers can get better with nothing but money.

Compare that to 52,500 nuyen in guns, specialied ammo, targeting bonuses, cyberwear and systems that cut through environmental factors like smoke, darkness and range.
Or compare it to 52,500 in drones with weapon mounts and their software.
Or take any two spells on your Mage and compare to this contact:
Seattle Ancients   Connection 5 Loyalty 6 (+4 size, +4 area of influence, +1 access to magic) 20 BP total, 14 modified Connection
Magic may still come out a little better (except when facing down the Ancients) or it may not but it doesn't come out to be radically more effective compared to its cost: BP, Karma and avoiding cyberware.

[Wraith235]

     I've seen a lot of players, on forums and in person, use power foci for drain tests. This is not the intent of the author's of this book. The Magic attribute does not affect Drain at all. it affects all the other things mentioned, casting spells, summoning and controling spirits, and bypassing astral barriers, but it has nothing to do with drain. If I was a GM, I would say that you cannot use dice awarded from the binding of a power foci to resist Drain. If a GM thinks that is okay, then cool, just know that it would be a house rule, not a Shadowrun rule.

I hope this helped someone improve their role-playing experience.

what fuled the misconception was a difference between SR3 and 4 when a power foci Could be used for Drain ...
the 2nd part of it is in SR4 a Spell Casting Foci could be used for drain
the casting Foci Subsequently lost its ability to be used for Drain in Sr4

[Loki]

So has the power focus. The only focus that will assist with drain is centering.

As the specific example being batted about, I'd like to say several words to Max: Pain Editor and Trauma Dampener. That is all.

[inca1980]

Mages are not overpowered.  If you effectively use cover, it's really hard for the mage to get LOS on you.  Just use 1 simple action to shoot, and then use the 2 free's to duck in and out of cover so that you're always out of LOS.  The only thing the mage can do is either roll higher initiative and hold action to interrupt you during your action-phase at the moment you duck out, or use edge to go before you and do this.  So just have a high intiative and always use your edge to counter-act this.  Even if you don't want to do this, you still get great benefits from partial and good cover.  This is explicitly stated in SR4A pg.160.  So good cover can make up for lack of Counterspelling...imagine getting counter-spelling with good cover.  So if you're shooting behind good cover, and you're buddy is counterspelling you for 4.  That's a +8 to your spell resistance.....a mages nightmare.

But that aside....SR just isn't balanced....i don't feel it's really supposed to be.  The rules are detailed but you can tell that the detail isn't super focus grouped and playtested with the aim of creating "balance".  It's more like "here's a few things you can do, GM should just use the cook-book method we laid out for setting up the rolls for virtually anything you would ever want to do."  Since so so much is left up to the GM's call....it's the GM's duty to balance the game....i.e. hit the group with a huge variety of adversity....at some point everyone in the group will shine. 

Mages really ought to be overpowered because magic is a seriously valuable commodity.

[hemgath]

Start your mage with a simple sustaining focci 3 (12 and price 30k) + Increase reflex...
You can simply cast it @3 and had the very sufisant bonus of +2 pass and +2 init...
But...
Play with a lot of magician (and we corectly used all the rules explained by Joe)...
For our, the real prob for magician is not is overpower but simply the couterspell effect...
It's easy to had a good counterspell skills for one mage of the table, other Mage give him the "teamwork Rules bonus"...
So, the mage aplly his protec to the shadowteam who endup with a massively indescent "counterspell team skills"...
That is the real prob...
With a good spell caster (we play minmax PC table and "highlevel" adventure)
It's a toss... Spell make mega over domage... or nothing...
But it's the same for an average table... or a street level one...

So magic and by extension spell must be power full... for be a prob... and override counterspell.
that is for combat spell...
Starting from this constancy "non combat spell" are more powerful than they should. and make magicain overpowered.
Prob is counterspell (for our table and GM advice).

[Mäx]

As the specific example being batted about, I'd like to say several words to Max: Pain Editor and Trauma Dampener. That is all.

Those maybe keep you in the fight for the second IP(depending on how good a combat mage your against), unless the mage desides to risk 1 point higher drain and do use a manabolt instead of stunbolt.

[Loki]

I also think you are missing several disadvantages to casters. First they can't just walk around with a inc reflexes spell up 24/7 in their focus. Well they can try but the first ward they hit will probably drop it. Also the spell can be dispelled or the focus can be attacked and shut down. Dispelling can't be countered and I don't know many people who think to put counterspelling on their foci (at least not till they meet me). so if it's not active at combat's begining or is dispelled shortly there after they get to spend a complex action to bring it up. Implant reflex enhancement is always up unless it's user shuts it off or it's hacked, which IMO is usually the owners fault for not properly protecting their gear.

Second, even if both mage and sammie have the same level of reflex enhancement which one do you think has a better base init and therefore has a better chance to go first?

[The_Gun_Nut]

Cyberware can technically be hacked, but, in play, this tends to be counter-productive.  By the time the hacker has broken in to the 'ware and turned it off, the fight is usually over because of lead poisoning.

[Loki]

Like I said, to me that is largely user error. If ya don't got it slaved to a comlink with good security, or at least have it running thru a skinlink you deserve to be shot by your own cyberarm. I've played 1 session of 4e and I know that. I am a bit OCD on learning rules tho   and about my own gear not killing me.

[The_Gun_Nut]

Even if they have crap security, by the time it gets hacked the fight should be just about over (if not actually over for that guy).  Just the minimum time involved usually puts the kibosh on that.

But that's with standard goons.  With a cyborg or cyberzombie or a KE Kill Team, yes the hackers need to be doing the hacky thing.

[Kontact]

Yes, a non-magical character can probably resist bullets MUCH better.

*ahem*  ...Spirits.

Take a purposed possession mage with 17 dice for summoning Guardian Spirits (6stat+5skill+2spec+2mentor+2foci).  Summon up a Force 8 Guardian.  Average of 3 services hits with ~3P to soak  Sometimes more, sometimes less.  (Who really cares, Summoning drain generally happens outside of combat, so you can just first-aid it away at your leisure.)  Now the possessed mage has maxed out attributes, (all of them,) and 16 hardened armor.  That means that the shooter would need to get 3+ net hits to injure with stick-n-shock on an opposed test where you're looking at a full dodge pool of 16, and a soak pool of at least 17, should the hit occur.  And with the Skill optional power, you can pick any skill and get busy with a crazy dice pool.

Or, you know what, let's forget this possession nonsense.  How about just a force 8 spirit bearing down on the shooters like a disposable tank.  Nothing really stopping our man from serial-summoning them for all eternity.


The only thing that keeps mages from ruling every aspect of the game is Background Count. 
Any place where a shadowrunner is likely to be ought to have some BC.

[The_Gun_Nut]

Except that the summoner can only whistle up one at a time unless he wants to bind one.  Plus that ignored summoning drain becomes very important.  Bullets also work on spirits now and, hardened armor or not, heavy firepower can bring one down.  Remember, there are always more goons than there are summoners.

Plus, who's to say the other team can't have a summoner?  While this requires magic on the other side, it can easily stymie the summoner who thinks he has an auto-win.  The spirit also has a link to the original summoner, a link which can be traced if someone examines the spirit close enough (very hard, but possible).

[Kontact]

You mean that the only reasonable counter to magic is more magic?

Please, go on...


Average drain is 3DV for summoning a Force 8 spirit.

The drain for casing a Force 1 lightning bolt is 4.

If your mage can't soak 3DV, then bin the sucker. 

Also, 16 hardened armor + massive dodge pool.  Hell, let's go F9 and make it 18 hardened armor.  That gives you the true "average 3 drain."

[The_Gun_Nut]

A dodge pool which continuously diminishes the more attacks are directed at it.  Pretty soon it becomes 0, or inapplicable when someone attacks the spirit without its knowledge (snipers remain nasty, no matter what).

What you seem to completely ignore is that magic is both powerful, and rare.  Yes, magic is potent, but there's only a handful of people that can even use magic.  The per capita on magic use (not mages or adepts or whatever, just folks who have a little juice) is roughly 1%.  That's 99 guys for every mage.  Yes, mages, and magic, is powerful.  But there are only so many of them, and a lot more of the other guys, who have technology backing them up, as well.  If the mage is not present at the scene, then the spirit is going it alone.  And it doesn't matter how tough a character is, that character can go down if he's alone.

You mean that the only reasonable counter to magic is more magic?

Please, go on...

Don't get snide, I mentioned magic countering magic in addition to all the other options listed previously (by myself or others).  I also mentioned the mage can also only whistle up one at a time unless binding, but you coveniently ignored something that didn't fit with what you were saying, instead of addressing it.

If you have something that is new or adds a new twist that we haven't thought of, then please post it, so we can dissect and analyze it for use in game.  But don't get snarky because your argument is weak.