Shadowrun

Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: Triskavanski on <04-24-14/1328:01>

Title: [WIP] Technomancer handbook
Post by: Triskavanski on <04-24-14/1328:01>
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1sYeM9xPJSL32yM6N2-dvEeedcg--u_S-51ZgA4ddBxU/edit?usp=sharing

Just something I've been working on, still working on it as I've got to finish up attributes, and start doing gear. Of course a lot of this is my opinions on Technomancers
Title: Re: [WIP] Technomancer handbook
Post by: gmoney999 on <04-24-14/1816:14>
This is good!

I would add a section of sample builds.  For example, can you make a strong technomancer Dwarf?  Elf? Do you think it is possible to make a strong technomancer with a low starting resonance attribute? do you think it is viable to get resources D + spend 10 karma on cash and buy cerebral boosters (you have next to no gear)?

Also I would mention how hard you are to spot as a technomancer in the real world!  A 6+ assensing test is really the only thing that can spot you.
Title: Re: [WIP] Technomancer handbook
Post by: SlowDeck on <04-24-14/1857:15>
They need a sticky with guides in it... this one should be added to that sticky  ;D
Title: Re: [WIP] Technomancer handbook
Post by: FasterN8 on <04-24-14/2145:00>
Yeah, good stuff man. 

Don't forget to mention that Cleaner is pretty much required if you're registering sprites.  Unless you houserule that putting them on standby zeroes out their OS, a registered sprite only ever has about an hour (total) of life after it's next illegal action. 

Cleaner fixes all that.
Title: Re: [WIP] Technomancer handbook
Post by: Triskavanski on <04-24-14/2248:11>
Well, an hour if GOD keeps rolling high.

Otherwise re-registering again, cleans out the the OS score, just like registering does.
Title: Re: [WIP] Technomancer handbook
Post by: Cowdragon on <04-25-14/1907:46>
so the strength of Sprites, isn't that you can summon whatever kind, whenever you need them...but to have several ready to go for whatever mission BEFORE you get there? Intriguing.

What is this "low level sprite resistance" that you are speaking of?

Also, this thing is fantastic btw! Thanks for making it! I really  REALLY like Technomancers.
Title: Re: [WIP] Technomancer handbook
Post by: Triskavanski on <04-25-14/1956:38>
so the strength of Sprites, isn't that you can summon whatever kind, whenever you need them...but to have several ready to go for whatever mission BEFORE you get there? Intriguing.

What is this "low level sprite resistance" that you are speaking of?

Also, this thing is fantastic btw! Thanks for making it! I really  REALLY like Technomancers.

Strength of Sprites - Exactly! You've got one compiled one that you could summon whenever needed, if you needed one. But the true stength (by my finding of them) is to have a small army with you at all times. The first mission of course is going to be rough due to the rules not letting you have them without spending karma (which is a waste) and how long it would take to compile/register them. Having 5 logic, you could have 2 machine spirtes, 1 crack, 1 fault and 1 data.

Low Level Sprite resistance - a level 1 sprite has a 33% chance of failure, regardless of how many hits you get. Its even higher when your registering it. That chance of  auto-failure however slowly starts dropping as the sprite increases in force and your own abilities increase.

Its something I've been tossing around a lot, due to complaints that Technomancers played like deckers aren't as good as deckers. I've only recently found a method of getting around low limits (teamworking with your sprites that have high limits) and thus started putting that into  the guide.
Title: Re: [WIP] Technomancer handbook
Post by: TerraFirst! on <04-25-14/1959:49>
I wanted to point out, especially bc one of the comments on there also made reference to it, a permanent effect doesn't need to be sustained for level rounds before it starts having an effect, rather, taken from page 252, "if you sustain it for its Level in Combat Turns, its effects remain after you stop sustaining it".  Means the effect happens immediately, lasts while you sustain, and becomes permanent after so long.
Title: Re: [WIP] Technomancer handbook
Post by: Csjarrat on <04-25-14/2012:51>
This is good!

I would add a section of sample builds.  For example, can you make a strong technomancer Dwarf?  Elf? Do you think it is possible to make a strong technomancer with a low starting resonance attribute? do you think it is viable to get resources D + spend 10 karma on cash and buy cerebral boosters (you have next to no gear)?

Also I would mention how hard you are to spot as a technomancer in the real world!  A 6+ assensing test is really the only thing that can spot you.

here's a dwarf TM:
He's got a 5/5/6/6 living persona, resonance 7 and passable physical stats so i'd say yes, ou can make TM's that have a meta choice
Quote
Priorities:
A: Resonance (6 +2 R5 skills, +5 CF)
B: Attribs (20)
C: Meta (dwarf, 1)
D: Skills (22)
E: Resources (6k)

Attribs:
BOD 3 (+0)
STR 3 (+0)
AGI 2 (+1)
REA 3 (+2)
CHA 5 (+4)
INT 5 (+4)
LOG 6 (+5)      20/20
WIL 6 (+4)

RES 7
EDG 2 {+10 karma}
ESS 6

Qualities: Exceptional Attribute (RES) -14
           Sinner (national: UCAS) +5
           Common, Mild Allergy- Seafood +10
           Moderate Addiction: Nicotine +9
Net +25 Karma
________________________________________________
Skills:

Free:
Compiling {6} (Crack +2)
Registering 5

Individual:           22/22
Hacking 6
Cybercombat 4
EWar 2 (encryption +2)
Software 6
Computer 3 (Matrix perception +2)
Automatics 2 (MP +2)

Karma:
Perception 1 {2k}
Etiquette 1 {2k}
First aid 1 {2k}
Con 1 {2k}
Disguise 1 {2k}
Athletics Group 1 {5k}
_________________________________________________
Complex Forms:
Diffusion of Firewall
Puppeteer
Resonance Spike
Static Bomb
Static Veil
_________________________________________________
Gear: 6k + 10 karma = 26k

Weapons + Armour:
Cavalier Evanator (MP) 775
+concealable holster 150 
                          925
Lined Coat 900            900

Helmet 100
-image link 25
-motion scanner 100
-microtransceiver 200     425
2250 total
_________________________________________________
Electronics:
Earbuds R2 100
-Audio Enhance R1 500
-SSF R1 250               850

Glasses R4 400
-Flare Comp 250
-Vision Mag 250
-Vision Enhance 1 500
-Image Link 25           1625

Renraku Sensei Commlink  1000
Fake Sin R3              7500
-Fake Gun License R3      600
-Fake Vehicle License R3  600
12175 total                                    14425 spent
_________________________________________________
Misc:
Low Lifestyle (1 month) 2000
>cramped -20%
>dwarf +20%

Yamaha Growler     5000                        26000 spent
Data chip x10        50                       
Standard tags (100) 100
Stealth Tags (50)    50
Bug scanner R6      600
Area Jammer R4      800
Directional " R6   1200
Gold Credstick      100
Disguise Kit        500
Medkit R2           500
Casual Clothing      50

Ammo:
Regular x200        400
x5 spare clips       25
Title: Re: [WIP] Technomancer handbook
Post by: Flip on <04-26-14/1953:27>
This is looking really great. I'm starting my own game soon, and by far the hardest part of SR5 was matrix stuff. This is a nifty little handbook that looks like it'll be great for my players (Who are new to shadowrun entirely) and myself! Looking forward to seeing it hit V1.
Title: Re: [WIP] Technomancer handbook
Post by: Dinendae on <04-26-14/2348:52>
On a Res 6 Technomancer, would it be worth it to lose a point of Res (and Ess) to drop in a Rating 2 Synaptic booster (to help when you're not needed in the Matrix)?
Title: Re: [WIP] Technomancer handbook
Post by: Triskavanski on <04-27-14/0010:54>
If you can get alpha or higher grades, and be able to fit in the Pain Editor. Cause the Pain editor is probably the #1 thing to get, even though it hurts your resonance a little. Basically undetectable, and it lets you quite some time on the matrix.

Cause you'll take less damage, heal faster and all sorts of other lovely things. Like In AR mode, you'd be able to fight for much longer than a decker, since you can go through your stun track and then through your physical track if you really wanted to. (I don't suggest fighting that long.)
Title: Re: [WIP] Technomancer handbook
Post by: Cowdragon on <04-27-14/2158:26>
If you can get alpha or higher grades, and be able to fit in the Pain Editor. Cause the Pain editor is probably the #1 thing to get, even though it hurts your resonance a little. Basically undetectable, and it lets you quite some time on the matrix.

Cause you'll take less damage, heal faster and all sorts of other lovely things. Like In AR mode, you'd be able to fight for much longer than a decker, since you can go through your stun track and then through your physical track if you really wanted to. (I don't suggest fighting that long.)

Maybe TM's just need to be more like Mystic Adepts? lol.

But seriously, I think the primary "problem" with them is that people tend to forget how awesome it is to be "normal" in the shadows sometimes. TM's cannot be detected. Well, not easily. This can be much more effective than a combat monster in many situations.

That said, Shadowrun is a combat and exciting game, so maybe throw TM's a bone and give them some initiative bonuses or something?
Title: Re: [WIP] Technomancer handbook
Post by: Insaniac99 on <04-28-14/0437:40>
That said, Shadowrun is a combat and exciting game, so maybe throw TM's a bone and give them some initiative bonuses or something?

They are currently the only character capable of getting the full 5d6 dice in the matrix.  in 4th edition there is a echo (that ports over easily and will probably be in the matrix book) that let's them use their full VR initiative but in meatspace, as long as they only take as many actions in meat that they would normally.  So a Technomancer with a couple submersions could get those two echos and bet one of the first people to get an action for either matrix or meat.
Title: Re: [WIP] Technomancer handbook
Post by: Cowdragon on <04-28-14/1846:54>
That said, Shadowrun is a combat and exciting game, so maybe throw TM's a bone and give them some initiative bonuses or something?

They are currently the only character capable of getting the full 5d6 dice in the matrix.  in 4th edition there is a echo (that ports over easily and will probably be in the matrix book) that let's them use their full VR initiative but in meatspace, as long as they only take as many actions in meat that they would normally.  So a Technomancer with a couple submersions could get those two echos and bet one of the first people to get an action for either matrix or meat.

See? That's pretty cool stuff. TM's go for the long game then. :)
Title: Re: [WIP] Technomancer handbook
Post by: Dinendae on <04-28-14/2025:03>
That said, Shadowrun is a combat and exciting game, so maybe throw TM's a bone and give them some initiative bonuses or something?

They are currently the only character capable of getting the full 5d6 dice in the matrix.  in 4th edition there is a echo (that ports over easily and will probably be in the matrix book) that let's them use their full VR initiative but in meatspace, as long as they only take as many actions in meat that they would normally.  So a Technomancer with a couple submersions could get those two echos and bet one of the first people to get an action for either matrix or meat.

See? That's pretty cool stuff. TM's go for the long game then. :)

That's assuming it will be in the book: As Run & Gun has shown, a lot of things aren't being brought over from SR4A.
Title: Re: [WIP] Technomancer handbook
Post by: Triskavanski on <04-28-14/2036:26>
Run and Gun isn't arsenal though really. It was just the combat book, so they only did stuff for combat.
Title: Re: [WIP] Technomancer handbook
Post by: Dinendae on <04-28-14/2040:26>
Run and Gun isn't arsenal though really. It was just the combat book, so they only did stuff for combat.
Yes, but it was still missing various equipment that was combat related: mods such as personalized grip, vibro knife and vibro sword, etc. The Matrix book might very well have everything the SR4A did, but automatically assuming it will is pointless; we will not know until it is released.
Title: Re: [WIP] Technomancer handbook
Post by: Triskavanski on <04-30-14/0452:45>
Its also missing mods that it was suppose to have, so said Gun Heaven 3.

I'm pretty sure when "arsenal" comes out, more weapons/armors will be included, including more rules on modding them.
Title: Re: [WIP] Technomancer handbook
Post by: norskface on <04-30-14/1114:16>
Poorly you are missing the part that you need to roll for each Sprite an seperate "Attack action"... to come with them all on the Host to help you, if things get bad.  :'(

I also hoped it would be different, but in this way, I dont see, how I can work with them in a team. (Had this dicussed already once before here...)
Title: Re: [WIP] Technomancer handbook
Post by: Triskavanski on <04-30-14/1203:08>
Actually.. if you put a sprite on standby, you should beable to pull it out while in the host.

But why do you need to roll "attack actions" in the first place to get into a host?
Title: Re: [WIP] Technomancer handbook
Post by: norskface on <04-30-14/1240:43>
Well I ment Brute force or Hack on the Fly, for every Sprite you want to get on the Host, or doing something for you on the comlink.

That was also once my question here in this Forum and I got corrected, that I cant share my marks I have with my Sprites or they cant share them with me. If I want to get "inside" with them together, to be able to work together (if this is possible), me and the Sprites have to Hack into the Host or comlink.... what ever.

I also dont like this and it ruins my whole TM, because I of so many uncleared problems off TMs and Sprites I only can wait for Unwired... and I realy hope this will be possible.
But for now, this is a mayn reason I almost never use Sprites till now.
Title: Re: [WIP] Technomancer handbook
Post by: JackVII on <04-30-14/1248:27>
^ It is a good question and one for which I don't know if we have an answer.

On the spirit side of the house, you can bind a spirit and then send it "away" to the metaplanes, allowing you to call it from somewhere else later. It's never specified, but given the nature of the metaplanes, you can presumably slip through a ward and then call a previously bound spirit with no problems (wards don't extend into the metaplanes, IIRC).

Not sure how that works with sprites, given that hosts and warded areas are a bit different. Given that Standby actually costs a service and indicates that the sprite returns to "the Resonance" I would allow it to be able to be called into a Host without getting a MARK on it, although that in and of itself might raise red flags with the Patrol IC.
Title: Re: [WIP] Technomancer handbook
Post by: Michael Chandra on <04-30-14/1408:26>
There was a trick in Street Magic using a temporary metaplane jump for Spirits to get past wards, which non-free can only do if their Summoner is on the other end, iirc. So yeah, it's quite doable for them. I could understand a comparable move for TMs, though frankly I know about squat about them.
Title: Re: [WIP] Technomancer handbook
Post by: Triskavanski on <04-30-14/2335:42>
Couple of tricks, beyond just the stand by trick.

Puppeteer, or resonance veil might work too
However.. a host is niether a device nor persona, so i assume some gms might rule that you cant use your cimplex forms on a host, which hurts.

Currently vs a host technomances do have some weaknesses obviously. Hopefully if you are being the crew hacker the gm will work with you a little bit, is about all i can give for now. Hopefully some things get better defiened soon
Title: Re: [WIP] Technomancer handbook
Post by: Xenon on <05-01-14/0237:55>
in SR4 a TM had to relearn her hacking skills if she wanted to hack like a decker.
In SR5 she use the same skill set.

This mean a SR5 TM can log on to her cyberdeck 
(using cyberdeck persona, cyberdeck attributes, cyberdeck cyberprograms and not her living persona)
and connect it directly to a device to exploit the direct connection.
..and use the mark to enter a host
and from the host get direct connection to all slaved devices.
She don't need high matrix attributes when she only fight device ratings anyway.

Using her living persona she can spend edge or time (heal stun and try again) to get the mark on the host.
(just like a decker that does not have access to a slaved device)
...once she enter the host she will have a direct connection to all slaved devices.
(just like a decker that enter a host)

Depending on your reading a technomancer can change a protected file without first breaking the protection
(which will alert the host)
A ghost in the shell
...a decker would first have to alert the host by breaking the protection
...and then defend against (or hide from) IC while altering the file


A TM using her living persona can reduce OS by repeat thread low rank Cleaner complex forms.
This way a TM can stay on-line with her marks for a very very long time
Perfect for prolonged surveillance jobs where you, with one single test, can
- Trace physical locations of devices
- Track matrix activities with cookies
- Monitoring all matrix communications with snoop
....basically until you are forced to log out to get some sleep.
(while a Decker only do this, minus cookies, for about 40 minutes)
Title: Re: [WIP] Technomancer handbook
Post by: norskface on <05-01-14/1128:23>
@Xenon: And what has this to do, that you cant bring your tools (Sprites) to the job?
Title: Re: [WIP] Technomancer handbook
Post by: Xenon on <05-01-14/1212:44>
No.
Just random TM thoughts.

Basically; TM are not fubar when it comes to Hosts.
Title: Re: [WIP] Technomancer handbook
Post by: Triskavanski on <05-01-14/1237:16>
Not fubar, but they do have a slight issue when it comes to them. They can deal with the ICs a bit better than a decker, but their complex forms don't seem to function vs a host.
Title: Re: [WIP] Technomancer handbook
Post by: Xenon on <05-01-14/1311:54>
what they need is a way to establish a direct connection to a device so they can grab a mark on a host without fighting host ratings. the best house rule so far i've seen is that all TMs start with a "skin link"- Echo by default that let them establish a direct connection to devices they physically touch.
Title: Re: [WIP] Technomancer handbook
Post by: Novocrane on <05-01-14/1826:10>
What's wrong with a datatap?
Title: Re: [WIP] Technomancer handbook
Post by: Triskavanski on <05-01-14/1830:42>
Its not really a direct connection. At least by the rather poorly defined direct connection that only talks about how normal people do it

When i get back home im gonna update the handbook on this
Title: Re: [WIP] Technomancer handbook
Post by: SlowDeck on <05-01-14/1832:04>
Data taps also require you to plug something into the universal adapter port on them. While male technomancers may have something they can try to plug into a UAP if nature has been unkind to them, technomancers don't actually have anything that doesn't interfere with Resonance or their ability to use their persona that they can use. They could plug in a device and enter it, then try to enter the data stream from the device... but I'm not finding anything in the rules that support them doing this (or anything that says they can't, either). I may be missing a section, though.

Basically, from a practical standpoint, data taps are for deckers.
Title: Re: [WIP] Technomancer handbook
Post by: Novocrane on <05-01-14/1840:33>
I'm going to take it as RAI that was cornered in a back alley during editing, then. It's a wireless device, and (while this doesn't support anything per se ...) the core archetype TM has one.
Title: Re: [WIP] Technomancer handbook
Post by: Triskavanski on <05-01-14/1842:55>
All of this is why i mentioned that to really pkay a technomancer youve got to talk to your gm.
Title: Re: [WIP] Technomancer handbook
Post by: SlowDeck on <05-01-14/1844:28>
I'm going to take it as RAI that was cornered in a back alley during editing, then. It's a wireless device, and (while this doesn't support anything per se ...) the core archetype TM has one.

Actually, under the way it's written up, it's not really a wireless device. Here's a copy of the text:

Quote
Data Tap: You use this hacking tool by attaching it to
a data cable. Once it’s clamped onto the cable, you can
use it via universal data connector. Any device directly
connected to the data tap also has a direct connection
with the devices on either end of the cable (see Direct
Connections, p. 232) and vice versa. The tap can be removed
without damaging the cable.
Wireless: The data-tap can be wirelessly commanded
to self-destruct as a Free Action, immediately and
instantly severing the direct connection. This does not
harm the cable.

Basically, under the way a data tap is written up, the only wireless functionality it has is to blow up. It's one of those "wireless" devices that isn't actually wireless.

Then again, the book itself talks about all data being on the Matrix and all actions involving decking and hacking using the Matrix... and then in security mentions wired systems that are not on the Matrix, which require special devices to gain access but can otherwise be apparently hacked as normal. Which, in turn, suggests there may be entire grids and hosts which are not on the Matrix. If taken as a whole, the rules on Matrix access and what is on the Matrix and who can access what are pretty much GM fiat. Hopefully, the Matrix book clarifies this so the apparent contradiction makes sense.
Title: Re: [WIP] Technomancer handbook
Post by: Xenon on <05-01-14/1911:54>
Wireless bonus does not list all wireless functionality a device have. only extra bonuses.
There are a lot of wireless devices that don't even have wireless bonuses at all
(but have wireless functionality)

A commlink, for example,
commlink does not even have a wireless bonus at all
...does that mean commlink dont have wireless functionality? 
-Of course not!





SR5 p. 360 Wired Security
Wired networks are still vulnerable in many of the same ways as wireless networks. If a wire is breached and tapped anywhere along its length, the signals can be intercepted and retransmitted via wireless anyway.

How do you breach and tap a data wire?
- With a data tap....

TM (or a decker) use wireless data tap on a wired network to access the network wireless.


So get a wireless connection to a wired (wireless OFF) device is not an issue.
However, to get a direct connection you have access the data tap with a cable (to your cyberdeck).

SR5 p. 440 Data Tap
Any device directly connected to the data tap also has a direct connection with the devices on either end of the cable

Then again, a wired (wireless OFF) device does not have access to the Matrix
Hosts only exist within the Matrix (hosts can not exist outside of the matrix)

SR5 p. 216 Host
A self-contained place in the Matrix. Hosts have no physical location, as they exist purely in the Matrix cloud.

So,
while hacking wired networks you don't need to establish a direct connection to bypass host ratings.


This all mean that a TM does not have any harder time snooping a wired network than a decker have
...probably also why the TM archetype on p. 122 carry a data tap



However, this might also mean a TM can't establish a direct connection with her Living Persona to a wireless device slaved to a high rating Host by using a data tap or a wire attached to the universal data connector of the device. THIS is where TM's lack. THIS is why TM's, imo, should start with a "skin link" echo per default. That let them establish a direct connection to devices they physically touch.

Since using a cyberdeck with a direct connection bypass host ratings and since TMs can use the same hacking skills while on her Living Persona as if she is using a persona formed on a cyberdeck (new in SR5) a TM can use a regular cyberdeck if she want to hack devices slaved to a high rating host. it is a nice workaround, but imo not good enough.

some claim you might get a direct connection if you use a living persona, a cable that attach one end to the universal data connector of the wireless slaved device you want to hack and the other end to trodes you have on your head... but i don't really find any support for that in the book.
Title: Re: [WIP] Technomancer handbook
Post by: SlowDeck on <05-01-14/1941:42>
Xenon, consider this bit about wireless function:

Quote
Wireless-enabled items can prevent theft or monitor
the item’s functionality and alert the user of any malfunctions
via their personal area network. For instance, in bone
lacing, sensor tags are a convenient way of monitoring for
stress fractures and other complications. A hacker can’t
hack into your bone lacing and break your bones, but a
hacker can tell your bone lacing that your bones are broken,
causing your bone lacing to tell your commlink to call
DocWagon, or tell your medkit that you need painkillers.

That's from the main section on wireless functionality on pages 420-421. The short of the entire section: A wireless function can be entirely different from the device's main function.

Now note that having both wireless functionality and having a universal access port is considered default. The vast number of items with wireless bonuses don't include special text saying you can only use them wirelessly. Now, here's what it states about the data tap:

Quote
You use this hacking tool by attaching it to
a data cable. Once it’s clamped onto the cable, you can
use it via universal data connector.

Now, ask yourself why, considering that wireless and UAP usage being both possible by default, it is they specified UAP usage on this one. Not "you can use this to get a direct connection via universal data connector," but "you can use this via universal data connector." As worded, it's not saying you use UAP for a specific function, as you are arguing, but that using the device at all is UAP. And while the rules do state that tapping into a wired network can allow you to rebroadcast the wired signal wirelessly, they do not state it would be the data tap doing the rebroadcasting.

Which goes back to what I said about TMs plugging a device into the data jack and connecting wirelessly through it. And what you said about a TM potentially not being able to establish a direct connection.
Title: Re: [WIP] Technomancer handbook
Post by: martinchaen on <05-02-14/0026:14>
Yes, the rules are ambiguous. Check with your GM, and if he doesn't allow Technomancers to access a data tap wirelessly, ask him why he feels like humping an entire archetype.

The rules don't need to make sense "as written", they just Ned to make sense. In this case, it doesn't exactly take a lit if mental agility to consider the options and making a fair ruling if you ask me.
Title: Re: [WIP] Technomancer handbook
Post by: Xenon on <05-02-14/0401:53>
You "can" use it via...

This wording does not rule out that you can "also" connect wireless (they mention it specifically because you dont get a direct connection unless you use a cable… so with a [normal] wireless connection you dont bypass master ratings if the device is slaved to another device).



Yes. Wired Security is not spelled out that you use a data tap to breach and tap a wired network for data... but seriously, what other device do you suggest we use if not a Data Tap...?
Title: Re: [WIP] Technomancer handbook
Post by: firebug on <05-02-14/0438:51>
Do you plan on including a section on augmentations that are worth getting for a TM?  As you stated, Pain Editor is extremely useful (it even improves your Willpower, which I am sure you would love).  Your opinion on Cerebral Boosters would be useful (you seem to find Logic to be rather unimportant despite it being used for a lot of the most commonly used actions).  I love my Skilljack/Skillwires combo on Firebug, using Diagnostics on the Skilljack (which is what's running all the skillsofts, whether knowledge or active, and allows me to swap them without messing up the Sprite Power).

And the usefulness of drugs like Psyche for hacking or Cram to help your meatbody.

They are currently the only character capable of getting the full 5d6 dice in the matrix.  in 4th edition there is a echo (that ports over easily and will probably be in the matrix book) that let's them use their full VR initiative but in meatspace, as long as they only take as many actions in meat that they would normally.  So a Technomancer with a couple submersions could get those two echos and bet one of the first people to get an action for either matrix or meat.

Mesh Reality.  God that was such a badass echo, and it was kinda vital to the concept I had (that being a dronomancer combat biker).  I hope so badly that it comes back, but I have no idea how it'd be implemented.  Still, it would really give TM's something unique and super-cool that wouldn't be terribly unbalanced.  Compared to AR hacking with wires, the decker may have less of a bonus to their dice pool, but they can also take more meat actions.  Plus it's not like the TM didn't pay Karma for it; considering in 4th it would have taken a minimum of 29 Karma to achieve if you got it as early as possible and nothing else.
Title: Re: [WIP] Technomancer handbook
Post by: SlowDeck on <05-02-14/0459:03>
Xenon-

Unless specified otherwise, "can" does not indicate existence of other options; it indicates capacity to use a particular option. In normal usage, the word "can" even shows up often when there are no other usage options. Given that the data tap itself uses a specific wording in a case where that specific wording is not needed unless it is an exception to the normal rule, the specific wording indicates that normal usage does not apply. In this case, the specific wording indicates the usage of the data tap to get into a wired network only works through the UAP.

Note the above does not contradict the rule section that indicates the signals in a wired network can be transmitted wirelessly; it just specifies that the data tap doesn't do such. I can think of several other items in the pages before it that are candidates for doing such.

I do agree that the data tap is what you're intended to use to tap into wired security.

And, personally, I agree with more common sense rulings that it should broadcast wirelessly and let TMs use it for direct connection either wirelessly or with a touch. But at the same time, I'm pointing out that data taps are not that useful for TMs where a wired network is concerned as both TMs and data taps are currently written. It's easily fixed, but there's still going to be GMs potentially screwing over technomancers simply because they don't see any way the TM can be anything except a bullet catcher when the team is up against a wired network.
Title: Re: [WIP] Technomancer handbook
Post by: Xenon on <05-02-14/1040:37>
I dont agree. Data Tap is used wireless like 99.9% of all SR5 devices. If it can not be used wireless then it would specifically state that (in SR5 all devices have wireless capability by default - everything you can do with a wire you can do wireless... unless explicit stated otherwise). Here are a few examples from the book of devices that lack wireless capabilities.

"Certified Credstick ... 're not even wireless - you have to slot them into a universal data connector to ..."

"Datachip … have no wireless capability, so you need to plug them into a universal data connector ... if you .."

"Throwbacks can't be accessed by wireless connection ... cant be controlled remotely or get wireless bonus ... have universal data connector, so you can ..."


Cant access them wireless. You need to. You have to.


Data Tap does not state you "cant use it wireless". That you "need" or "have to" use a wire. Devices with no wireless capability does not (ever) have a wireless bonus. Some wireless devices, including but not limited to data tap, have wireless bonus.

Besides accessing the data tap in the "normal" wireless way you "can" use it via universal data connector. Something you cant do with a data tap is to establish a wireless direct connection. To establish a direct connection you use a data cable directly into the universal data connector of the data tap.


As for Wired Security. The only device that let you "breach" a cable (attaching it to a data cable) and "tap" it for data is the data tap. I cant see how you can accomplish it without a data tap.

...but out of curiosoity...
In your reading what "several other items" let you do that...?
Title: Re: [WIP] Technomancer handbook
Post by: Triskavanski on <05-02-14/1102:09>
On the Subject of RAW vs RAI..

If a GM is going strictly by RAW, taking the Mind over Machine echo would give you a universal data connector cable, as its a benifit of having a control rig.

RAI, Well then we can work with GM on things. ^^
Title: Re: [WIP] Technomancer handbook
Post by: Xenon on <05-02-14/1114:48>
are you suggesting that the mind over machine echo give your living persona a data jack and one meter of retractable cable....  :o
Title: Re: [WIP] Technomancer handbook
Post by: firebug on <05-02-14/1118:31>
are you suggesting that the mind over machine echo give your living persona a data jack and one meter of retractable cable....  :o

He's saying that, Rules As Written, it does.  It just says you "get the benefit of a Rating 1 Control Rig".  Strictly speaking, that's a lot of things including a meter of cable, a data jack, etc.

It's an example of "clearly RAW is not the answer here."
Title: Re: [WIP] Technomancer handbook
Post by: Triskavanski on <05-02-14/1308:45>
Exactly.

There are people who'd say "house rules can't be used because they are house rules. The technomancer needs to stand up by RAW" or something like that. In which case, Mind over Machine becomes applicable as a method of direct connection.

Granted though, it'll cost you 30 karma to do, since they've not fix such a simple and easy typo to fix.
Title: Re: [WIP] Technomancer handbook
Post by: SlowDeck on <05-02-14/1332:19>
I dont agree. Data Tap is used wireless like 99.9% of all SR5 devices. If it can not be used wireless then it would specifically state that (in SR5 all devices have wireless capability by default - everything you can do with a wire you can do wireless... unless explicit stated otherwise). Here are a few examples from the book of devices that lack wireless capabilities.

"Certified Credstick ... 're not even wireless - you have to slot them into a universal data connector to ..."

"Datachip … have no wireless capability, so you need to plug them into a universal data connector ... if you .."

"Throwbacks can't be accessed by wireless connection ... cant be controlled remotely or get wireless bonus ... have universal data connector, so you can ..."


Cant access them wireless. You need to. You have to.

You do know the throwbacks quote supports my position, right? In fact, take a look at the wording of using a UAP in the Throwbacks section... Here's what it says on throwbacks:

"you can use its included spooled data filament to connect to a throwback directly,"

Here's what the data tap bit says on using a UAP with it:

"you can use it via universal data connector."

Notice how remarkably similar those two bits are in how you're accessing the device? And even how, despite using a direct wired connection, the Throwbacks section still uses the word "can" despite having eliminated the other option? That's because it is a statement of possibility to use an action. Not a statement of existence of other options.

Quote
Data Tap does not state you "cant use it wireless". That you "need" or "have to" use a wire. Devices with no wireless capability does not (ever) have a wireless bonus. Some wireless devices, including but not limited to data tap, have wireless bonus.

Besides accessing the data tap in the "normal" wireless way you "can" use it via universal data connector. Something you cant do with a data tap is to establish a wireless direct connection. To establish a direct connection you use a data cable directly into the universal data connector of the data tap.

Can you use a data tap via UAP? Yes. But as the throwbacks section demonstrates, just because you can use it that way does not mean you can use it other ways. And with rules systems, specific wordings like this are always exceptions to the normal... otherwise, you would be able to access all throwbacks wirelessly, regardless of what the throwbacks section says. Unfortunately, proving that using the word "can" indicates something other than just possibility to use a single option would mean that you could access throwbacks wirelessly, which is in direct contradiction of RAW.

And, as Triskavanski demonstrates, RAW is a little ridiculous at times. This is one of those times.

To borrow from firebug... This is a case of "clearly RAW is not the answer here."

Quote
As for Wired Security. The only device that let you "breach" a cable (attaching it to a data cable) and "tap" it for data is the data tap. I cant see how you can accomplish it without a data tap.

It's not the only device in the core rulebook... You can also use a kit and a Hardware check. It's not explicitly spelled out, but it's actually how a lot of real-life tapping into a wire works.

Quote
...but out of curiosoity...
In your reading what "several other items" let you do that...?

There is a good example the book uses of wireless functionality that I will cite here: Bone lacing. In fact, the book specifically calls out bone lacing for an item where, despite hacking it, you can't actually do anything with it. Of course, this is because bone lacing doesn't actually have any wireless at all; it's sensor tags attached to it (if you don't believe me, read Wireless Functionality on pages 420-421). Sure, you can alter reports or maybe get creative and use it to send out "Trogs should be burned at the stake like the demons they are!" while the person who has it is surrounded by troll gangers or in the Ork Underground... but you can't use it to break their bones or to strip them of its main function. It's effectively not wireless simply because its main usage (reinforcing your bones) cannot be affected wirelessly.

They also cite pants. Specifically, the pants themselves don't have wireless access; it's a computer added onto them. It can play music and tell you it's time to do laundry, but common sense dictates that, for a cheap pair of jeans, this is pretty much it. Sure, a hacker could hack the pants, have the pants start broadcasting that you soiled yourself, change your entire music library to be just the Titanic theme song and play it on endless repeat, and start sending out messages that you have a bomb in your back pocket while you're trying to go through customs. But someone can always remove the computer and have the pants not adversely affected. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if most experienced shadowrunners didn't have a set of throwback clothing to wear just for when they're running.

Pretty much, the rules directly hint that just because a device has wireless functionality doesn't mean its wireless functionality actually has anything to do with the main use of it or in any way allows you to wirelessly use the device for its main usage. But the rules on wireless pretty much say that, unless there's something written explicitly regarding how you use the device or common sense dictates otherwise, you can use its main function wirelessly. And a data tap has it spelled out explicitly how you use it (despite common sense saying otherwise).
Title: Re: [WIP] Technomancer handbook
Post by: Triskavanski on <05-02-14/1357:09>
Actually.. Throwback also includes other words too that says its not wireless, and cannot be used wirelessly.
Quote
THROWBACKS
Some devices are throwbacks,devices that do not have wireless capability. While they still exist, they are becoming more and more rare in the 2070s. Throwbacks cannot be accessed by wireless connection, and so can neither
be controlled remotely nor gain a wireless bonus

Throwbacks, specifically stand against your position there. Notice how Remarkably it states several times how you're not able to use it wirelessly? It takes some extremely impressive mental gymnastics to completely ignore the first paragraph of text. Throwbacks are an exception, and it specifically states how they are an exception.


Quote
WIRELESS
FUNCTIONALITY
The world is wireless. Almost every device you can think of has been computerized and equipped with a wireless link, including your microwave, your gun, maybe even your eyes. Every gear item has a wireless-enabled computer built in. Even non-electronic items without any moving parts have built-in computers, so now your pants can store your favorite music (and tell you when it’s time to do the laundry). The few devices that are non-wireless are most likely tagged with RFID tags(p. 440).

the part about the bone lacing and the bones, is because the bone lacing has absolutely no way of breaking your bones. Its not made to break your bones. Its not built to heal your bones. Its not built to move. Its simply a lattice of a material around your bones that lacks any other functions.

Guns fire slugs of metal. No amount of hacking is going to change that its slugs of metal its flinging out. You can't hack the gun to shoot healing beam, or love arrows. You can't hack a gun so it can administer anti-toxin instead of bullets. However you are capable of firing a gun wirelessly. Because guns are built to fire bullets, and are capable of being accessed remotely.

Its the same way with the Data-Tap. The wireless bonus is NOT its wireless function. It is a wireless function. Why do you think it detonates wirelessly as a bonus? because if you're always limited to using a cable to plug into it.. You'd be right next to it. With no need to blow it up. You could take it with you.

However if you're accessing it wirelessly, and someone finds it.. Well you might want to blow it up so they don't know it was you who was tapping the line.
Title: Re: [WIP] Technomancer handbook
Post by: Xenon on <05-02-14/1402:03>
"you can use its included spooled data filament to connect to a throwback directly,"
You can also use a wire that is not included in the spooled data filament.
"Can" is simply not equal to "Must", "Have to", "Shall" (or other similar words).

If it instead said "you must use its included spooled data filament to connect to a throwback directly," or "you have to use its included spooled data filament to connect to a throwback directly," then it would be clear that you cannot use any other ways than the included spooled data filament to connect to a throwback directly. Thank god they used the word can.... If not we would by RAW not be allowed to use the retractable cable from your datajack to connect to a throwback device ;)


"you can use it via universal data connector."
That is not the same thing as:
You must connect it via universal data connector
or
You have to connect it via universal data connector

They are giving an example of how you can connect to the data tap.


You use this hacking tool by attaching it to a data cable.
There is no "can" here.
To use this tool you must attach it to a data cable.

Once it’s clamped onto the cable, you can use it via universal data connector.
There is a "can" here.
There might or might not be other methods to connect to a data tap that is already clamped onto a cable.

Any device directly connected to the data tap also has a direct connection with the devices on either end of the cable (see Direct Connections, p. 232) and vice versa.
There is no "can" here.
To get a direct connection with the devices on either end of the cable you must have a direct connection to the data tap.

The tap can be removed without damaging the cable.
There is a "can" here.
It might or might not be possible to remove the data tap in such a way that you damage the cable.


...otherwise, you would be able to access all throwbacks wirelessly
It is not the phrase "you can use its included spooled data filament to connect to a throwback directly," that prevent you to connect wireless to a throwback device (that phrase only give you a suggestion on ONE possible way to connect to its UDC; you don't HAVE to use the spool that is included. There might or might not be other ways to connect to a throwback directly without using the included spooled data filament)

- it is the phrase "Throwbacks can’t be accessed by wireless connection" that prevent you from connecting to it wireless.


Quote
...but out of curiosoity...
In your reading what "several other items" let you do that...?
...Bone lacing...
...pants...
I must have miss-read what you typed. If that was the case then i apologize.

(I got the impression you said there was several other items that could be used to gain access to a wired network)



Slipped by Triskavanski
Title: Re: [WIP] Technomancer handbook
Post by: SlowDeck on <05-02-14/1454:17>
Actually.. Throwback also includes other words too that says its not wireless, and cannot be used wirelessly.
Quote
THROWBACKS
Some devices are throwbacks,devices that do not have wireless capability. While they still exist, they are becoming more and more rare in the 2070s. Throwbacks cannot be accessed by wireless connection, and so can neither
be controlled remotely nor gain a wireless bonus

Throwbacks, specifically stand against your position there. Notice how Remarkably it states several times how you're not able to use it wirelessly? It takes some extremely impressive mental gymnastics to completely ignore the first paragraph of text. Throwbacks are an exception, and it specifically states how they are an exception.


Quote
WIRELESS
FUNCTIONALITY
The world is wireless. Almost every device you can think of has been computerized and equipped with a wireless link, including your microwave, your gun, maybe even your eyes. Every gear item has a wireless-enabled computer built in. Even non-electronic items without any moving parts have built-in computers, so now your pants can store your favorite music (and tell you when it’s time to do the laundry). The few devices that are non-wireless are most likely tagged with RFID tags(p. 440).

the part about the bone lacing and the bones, is because the bone lacing has absolutely no way of breaking your bones. Its not made to break your bones. Its not built to heal your bones. Its not built to move. Its simply a lattice of a material around your bones that lacks any other functions.

Guns fire slugs of metal. No amount of hacking is going to change that its slugs of metal its flinging out. You can't hack the gun to shoot healing beam, or love arrows. You can't hack a gun so it can administer anti-toxin instead of bullets. However you are capable of firing a gun wirelessly. Because guns are built to fire bullets, and are capable of being accessed remotely.

Its the same way with the Data-Tap. The wireless bonus is NOT its wireless function. It is a wireless function. Why do you think it detonates wirelessly as a bonus? because if you're always limited to using a cable to plug into it.. You'd be right next to it. With no need to blow it up. You could take it with you.

However if you're accessing it wirelessly, and someone finds it.. Well you might want to blow it up so they don't know it was you who was tapping the line.

Believe it or not, but the entire thing over pointing out the wording of the section on throwbacks is related to an argument on the word "can." Xenon's entire argument relies on the possibility that "can" indicates other options when used. I'm pointing out that the word does not.

As for that bit you posted: You're using common sense when looking at the wireless bonus. Problem: Nothing indicates the wireless function has to actually be the ability to use the main function of the device. You simply cannot use bone lacing to reinforce your bones wirelessly; it must be implanted. Nor can you use it, as you pointed out, for a function that is not possible for it.

Well, here's the thing... The data tap's language on using it is specific to UAP connections. Also, read what the data tap actually does; it creates an access point for direct connection to two devices connected by wire. Nothing about it indicates it serves any function outside of, basically, being a hacker-installed UAP. Everything about it except for blowing it up is related to direct connections. Being able to use it for non-wired connections is something that exists outside of RAW.

As it stands, every bit of the wording about the device pretty much backs up that it's only intended for establishing direct connections. Which means you can't use it for wireless access because it's not possible to establish a direct connection wirelessly; the fact it specifies UAP connections for using it backs that up.

So here's the problem: To prove you can use it wirelessly, you have to find wording within the device that allows you to do so. RAW, the device doesn't allow it and doesn't exist for connections where it would be possible anyway. Or you can take the common sense approach and just houserule it.

As for the rest... read my reply to Xenon. What I have to say about him when he gets into the "cans" is very, very relevant to what you said.

Edit: Just to note... I am not arguing that the data tap lacks wireless functionality.

You can also use a wire that is not included in the spooled data filament.
"Can" is simply not equal to "Must", "Have to", "Shall" (or other similar words).

"Can" also doesn't mean that you have other options than the one specified.

Seriously, if we go in circles any faster on this one, I think we'll generate our own artificial gravity. We're already drawing people in and trapping them  :P

And, yes, I am poking fun at myself with that  ;)

Quote
That is not the same thing as:
You must connect it via universal data connector
or
You have to connect it via universal data connector

They are giving an example of how you can connect to the data tap.

Which they don't need to, as it was defined at the beginning of the equipment section. That every device has a UAP doesn't need mentioned again for a connection value. Just mention you use it to tap into wires, include a wireless bonus, and save the extra wording for something else. Like the Krime Cannon and where it gets its one point of recoil reduction from. I know this is part of your point, and am going to take the comment as a whole, but I wanted to address this separately as a lead-in to what I'm going to say.

Quote
You use this hacking tool by attaching it to a data cable.
There is no "can" here.
To use this tool you must attach it to a data cable.

Once it’s clamped onto the cable, you can use it via universal data connector.
There is a "can" here.
There might or might not be other methods to connect to the data tap.

Any device directly connected to the data tap also has a direct connection with the devices on either end of the cable (see Direct Connections, p. 232) and vice versa.
There is no "can" here.
To get a direct connection with the devices on either end of the cable you must have a direct connection to the data tap.

The tap can be removed without damaging the cable.
There is a "can" here.
It might or might not be possible to remove the data tap in such a way that you damage the cable.

You misread the last sentence with a "can" in it. Read the wireless bonus as well. The "can" in this case is not indicating that there is a possibility of damaging the cable, but indicates it is possible for you to remove it this way. You can also choose to leave it in place, or can choose to wirelessly remove it by blowing it up. Which would be useful for creating permanent taps, such as for illegal Matrix access. The wireless bonus would allow you to monitor those taps from a distance, then detonate it if it is discovered.

The use of the word "can" basically is a short way of saying "you may do this, or you may choose not to do it." It's a lingual form of the binary decision making computers use all of the time.

Now, note that everything you quoted is how you use the device. Not "attaching it to a wire" as being the use, but "attach it to a wire, plug in with a direct connection, and later on remove it if you wish." That is the entire usage summarized.

Now, ask yourself this... why does this device specify direct connections and why does it specify UAP connections? Well, the former is obviously for wired networks; but, then, by common sense, the device could then just broadcast the entire data stream wirelessly. After all, for the era in which it exists, that makes sense that it could do both. Except, it apparently can't.

Notice how everything about the device except its wireless bonus is related to wired connections. It connects to a wire. It specifies a UAP connection for connecting to it to use the wired network. It specifies direct connection. It basically sounds like a portable UAP you can clamp onto any wire you come across, doesn't it?

You can use it for direct connection to wired networks? Okay, that's supported in the rules.
You can wirelessly blow the sucker up? Okay, that's supported.
You can use it wirelessly for connecting to wired networks? Absolutely nothing in the text indicates that. But it makes common sense, even if the rules don't support it.

Quote
It is not the phrase "you can use its included spooled data filament to connect to a throwback directly," that prevent you to connect wireless to a throwback device (that phrase only give you a suggestion on ONE possible way to connect to its UDC; you don't HAVE to use the spool that is included. There might or might not be other ways to connect to a throwback directly without using the included spooled data filament)

- it is the phrase "Throwbacks can’t be accessed by wireless connection" that prevent you from connecting to it wireless.

I was using that to show the inherent problem with your argument; after all, I'm not the one who is arguing that the word "can" indicates functionality beyond what is present. I'm pointing out the inherent problem with that argument.

Quote
I must have miss-read what you typed. If that was the case then i apologize.

(I got the impression you said there was several other items that could be used to gain access to a wired network)

Oh! No, I had misread what you were asking about.

Pretty much, pick any single item in the blades section. Then grab a kit related to hardware. Then you can use those blades to tap into a wired network (you're using the kit to provide a device you can plug both ends of the now-severed wire into so you can monitor the network). The rest of the items pretty much follow the same pattern. Of course, the moment you go severing live wires, you'll probably either die or get instantly caught. Or both. Kinda why the data tap is so important...
Title: Re: [WIP] Technomancer handbook
Post by: martinchaen on <05-02-14/1514:50>
*dies from wall of text*
Title: Re: [WIP] Technomancer handbook
Post by: norskface on <05-02-14/1516:48>
Back to the handbook:

I actually have put on my TM my LO quite high and planing to boost it also with some Cerbral Boosters on 10. At the same time I think Damage Compensator is the way to go it, not Pain indicator, because, yes it increases your Willpower, but drops your Intuition. And as I said before, till now its not so big use of Sprites all the time, so you still have to hack it your self. I have not enough experience, to realy say its the way to go, but having high LO and IN like a Decker is my way to go...

Correct me if Im wrong and I see the point of high Willpower, but till there is no Bio to raise it, I gues I woned have it much higher than my 6.
Title: Re: [WIP] Technomancer handbook
Post by: SlowDeck on <05-02-14/1517:12>
I've gone in so many circles on what I'm saying that my argument has become a singularity and kills people who get near it. Lovely.
Title: Re: [WIP] Technomancer handbook
Post by: Xenon on <05-02-14/1639:35>
...the device could then just broadcast the entire data stream wirelessly. After all, for the era in which it exists, that makes sense that it could do both. Except, it apparently can't.
Except that Wired Security do tell us that if a wire is breached and tapped anywhere along its length, the signals can be intercepted and retransmitted via wireless. You can breach and tap a wire along its length by using a data tap. A Technomancer can access retransmitted wireless signals with her Living Persona (so can a decker with the persona he form on his cyberdeck)

If you use a data tap you can even get a direct connection with the devices on either end of the cable, but this cannot be done wireless. To do this you need to attach a cable into the universal data connector of the data tap. A Technomancer can't attach the wire from her Living Persona to establish a direct connection with the devices on either end of the cable (but a decker can attach a wire from his cyberdeck).

Since the book does not go into detail how you retransmitt signals from a wired network you might or might not need additional devices for the actual retransmitting-part (like a satellite link - but in SR5 devices are very capable of talking directly to other devices without using a third party as some sort of router or proxy as long as the other device is within range -so my guess is that you only need a satellite link if you are at a remote location that does not have matrix access; like if you are breaching a wired network on an oil rig in the middle of the pacific ocean or a wired secret laboratory located on the north pole), but a data tap is [one of] the device(s) you need if you want to breach a wire to tap signals from a wired network.
Title: Re: [WIP] Technomancer handbook
Post by: SlowDeck on <05-02-14/1654:19>
I can't argue with what you posted. Overall, end of the day, I notice that no one here actually disagreed over the idea of the data tap broadcasting wirelessly making sense just from a common sense standpoint.

So, overall, we weren't in disagreement about how this should be handled; just in disagreement about how RAW actually handles it. Which, I think, mimics the very arguments that may crop up at tables involving technomancers if the tables decide to stick purely to RAW.

My post is getting too wordy, so going to cut off the fifteen other paragraphs I had and end it here. I'll save that dissertation for my master's on pedantic arguments. I think this thread alone will earn my bachelor's  :P
Title: Re: [WIP] Technomancer handbook
Post by: Triskavanski on <05-02-14/1656:30>
By RAW all things can function wirelessly.  Says so inthe wireless connectivity part.
Title: Re: [WIP] Technomancer handbook
Post by: martinchaen on <05-02-14/1710:51>
I forgot I asked Aaron this question a while back. Here's his answer:
Q: Can a data tap be attached to a wire and then accessed wirelessly for the purposes of hacking the device(s) on either end of the wire?
Yes. That's what it's for. You calculate the range to the data tap rather than the devices for purposes of  noise.
Title: Re: [WIP] Technomancer handbook
Post by: SlowDeck on <05-02-14/1714:42>
 :-[

Xenon and Triskavanski, you both have my apology for being such a pain in this topic. I should have recognized I was completely off much earlier.
Title: Re: [WIP] Technomancer handbook
Post by: Xenon on <05-02-14/1732:24>
No need to apologize Omae
You know I love to debate stuff like this :)
Title: Re: [WIP] Technomancer handbook
Post by: Razhul on <05-02-14/2203:49>
How long would a sprite running Diagnostics or Stability hang around? Diagnostics, I figure, would cost the task once your test has happened (you used or repaired a device). Stability, though, is for only one test or for a time period?
Title: Re: [WIP] Technomancer handbook
Post by: Triskavanski on <05-02-14/2217:35>
Diagnostics specifically states its duration is until the sprite does something else.
Title: Re: [WIP] Technomancer handbook
Post by: Razhul on <05-05-14/1255:51>
Ok, do Sprites disappear like Spirits at some point or can I keep it around, permanently buffing my Cyberdeck?

Also, anyone have a clue how long Stability would be active?
Title: Re: [WIP] Technomancer handbook
Post by: firebug on <05-05-14/1312:36>
Sprites do not go away after a specific period of time, but a compiled one begins accumulating OS the moment is it compiled, and being converged upon just deletes it.  If it is registered, then it's OS is reset and stops accruing until it does another illegal action.  Sprite Powers are not matrix actions and so do not trigger OS.

Use of a power counts as 1 Task and lasts until the Sprite is forced to stop or is told to stop; if you don't mind having the device wirelessly active all the time (which means never restarting it) then one task can last forever, theoretically.  A deck however really can't afford that, since it'll begin gaining OS and won't stop until you reboot it.  If you that one Complex Form can be sustained on it, that would only delay it--  You can't keep that form up forever (you need to sleep) and it won't prevent OS from matrix actions.

So unless you never sleep and spam Cleaner after every foray into the Matrix, you'll just have to re-register the sprite every few days or so.
Title: Re: [WIP] Technomancer handbook
Post by: Triskavanski on <05-05-14/1521:41>
Which complex form are you refering to Firebug?
Title: Re: [WIP] Technomancer handbook
Post by: firebug on <05-05-14/1756:58>
Static Veil.  I wasn't certain if it could be used on other personas.  Looks like it can.
Title: Re: [WIP] Technomancer handbook
Post by: Xenon on <05-05-14/2343:15>
...or can I keep it around, permanently buffing my Cyberdeck?
You need to use your Living Persona to compile, register and order your sprite.
You need to reboot both your Living Persona and your cyberdeck if you want to form your persona on your cyberdeck.
At that point your sprite will no longer buff your cyberdeck....

If a deck you have at least one mark on is not fully bricked then you can use a sprite for:
- Stability while it is repaired (so that the person taking the hardware test will always avoid to glitch it)
- Diagnostics while it is repaired (so that the person taking the hardware test will get extra limit and positive dice pool)

Unless you register the sprite you have about an hour before it is crashed by GOD
You can repeat thread low levels of Cleaner or Sustain a threaded Static Veil to increase the sprites longevity until you need to sleep.
You can also register (and re-register) it.
Unless it take an attack or sleaze matrix action this will increase sprites longevity until it run out of tasks.
Title: Re: [WIP] Technomancer handbook
Post by: Triskavanski on <05-06-14/0044:52>
...or can I keep it around, permanently buffing my Cyberdeck?
You need to use your Living Persona to compile, register and order your sprite.
You need to reboot both your Living Persona and your cyberdeck if you want to form your persona on your cyberdeck.
At that point your sprite will no longer buff your cyberdeck....

If a deck you have at least one mark on is not fully bricked then you can use a sprite for:
- Stability while it is repaired (so that the person taking the hardware test will always avoid to glitch it)
- Diagnostics while it is repaired (so that the person taking the hardware test will get extra limit and positive dice pool)

Unless you register the sprite you have about an hour before it is crashed by GOD
You can repeat thread low levels of Cleaner or Sustain a threaded Static Veil to increase the sprites longevity until you need to sleep.
You can also register (and re-register) it.
Unless it take an attack or sleaze matrix action this will increase sprites longevity until it run out of tasks.

I want to make a bit of a correction to this... An hour isn't the set time before GOD comes crashing down. An hour is if GOD rolls 12 each time for the time test. Averagely, you're looking more around 2 hours.

Though it is good practice to try and keep compiled sprite use to less than an hour, just in case.


EDIT

Added three armor items so far that should work with the Machine Sprite's bonuses. An elvish Face-mancer would be pretty scary as you're looking at a max limit of 14 on social tests.
Title: Re: [WIP] Technomancer handbook
Post by: Triskavanski on <05-08-14/0002:30>
Yeah, the first mission is always the hardest one for technomancers. Esspecially ones who have the dice hating them like I do.

Sprite got 5 out of 6 dice on a resistance check.
Then 3 out of 6
Then 6 out of 12 on a registering resistance check.

Meanwhile I got the average or lower most of the time.
Title: Re: [WIP] Technomancer handbook
Post by: norskface on <05-09-14/1857:02>
Lol, I just had the idea to put your Macina-Sprite with Diagnostics on your glasses you have your smartlink and other vision enhancements on.
So if this is possible (and I gues at that moment the glasses are the electronical DEVICE, not the enhancements) you can use the bonus not only for your gun, but also to recognice things better and so on...
Title: Re: [WIP] Technomancer handbook
Post by: Csjarrat on <05-10-14/0644:33>
just remember to register your sprite if you're leaving it in a device for hours on end.
Title: Re: [WIP] Technomancer handbook
Post by: Furious Trope on <05-11-14/1408:08>
Triskavanski- At some point 3-4 pages ago you said that low-level sprites have a 33% chance to fail no matter how many hits you roll.

Could you explain that? I've been trying to work out how technomancers work exactly and suspect I've missed something.
Title: Re: [WIP] Technomancer handbook
Post by: norskface on <05-11-14/1454:29>
 
Triskavanski- At some point 3-4 pages ago you said that low-level sprites have a 33% chance to fail no matter how many hits you roll.

Could you explain that? I've been trying to work out how technomancers work exactly and suspect I've missed something.
It was about the Threshold you have. You can have only Level Hits, doesnt matter how many 5 or 6 your roll.
But if the Sprite hits Level-times and equals you by that, you fail...

Hope this is understandable.
Title: Re: [WIP] Technomancer handbook
Post by: Triskavanski on <05-11-14/1537:11>
Exactly.

You have to beat the threshold. Now if you could get equal and succeed, it would solve the low level sprites having the chance of auto fail.
Title: Re: [WIP] Technomancer handbook
Post by: Furious Trope on <05-11-14/1645:39>
Triskavanski- At some point 3-4 pages ago you said that low-level sprites have a 33% chance to fail no matter how many hits you roll.

Could you explain that? I've been trying to work out how technomancers work exactly and suspect I've missed something.
It was about the Threshold you have. You can have only Level Hits, doesnt matter how many 5 or 6 your roll.
But if the Sprite hits Level-times and equals you by that, you fail...

Hope this is understandable.

Derp. Yeah, thanks. Limits still throw me off from time to time.

I guess you could fix that with edge if you have it to spare.
Title: Re: [WIP] Technomancer handbook
Post by: Xenon on <05-21-14/0221:07>
I forgot I asked Aaron this question a while back. Here's his answer:
Q: Can a data tap be attached to a wire and then accessed wirelessly for the purposes of hacking the device(s) on either end of the wire?
Yes. That's what it's for. You calculate the range to the data tap rather than the devices for purposes of  noise.




Another quote:

Quote
1) Can a Living Persona connect to an archive or device in a LAN or otherwise off the Matrix through a Data Tap that is set to Wireless?

If I understand your question (i.e. target to tap to technomancer), then yes.
Title: Re: [WIP] Technomancer handbook
Post by: Triskavanski on <05-21-14/0517:41>
Thats some good info!
Title: Re: [WIP] Technomancer handbook
Post by: Triskavanski on <05-21-14/1758:25>
Something im currently working on is providing overwatch for your team. While in the meatworld you have terribe initice, matrix, it becomes very hard to match you with that overclock echo.

So as overwatch, your crew each wear sensors to givw you eyes and ears as you direct them wirh leadership and orher such things.
Title: Re: [WIP] Technomancer handbook
Post by: Triskavanski on <05-29-14/2114:09>
Something recently brought to my attention, being silent mode doesnt hurt your resonance actions. So resonance spike + static bomb= matrix ninja


So that adds three archetypes to my handbook now. Actually.. four

Overwatcher - A technomancer who stays away from the action. Low meat space ability. Doesn't do much hacking themselves. Instead, is usually VRed into the matrix for the increase initiative. Uses Leadership through the matrix along with machine sprites to help the team. A real team player technomancer, despite not being one in much danger. Uses lots of feeds from cameras and other sensors they can get.

Technohunter - A Technomancer with low matrix presence. uses machine sprites and gear that can be boosted by them. Such as goggles with smartlink+vision enhancements and chameleon suit. Typically would use a sniper rifle or other such weapon to hang back away from the action as they still have lower than normal meatspace ability (Compared to adepts/street sam) Kinda functions more as an army of one.

Technoface - A Technomancer who focuses on Charisma based skills. Works like an in between of the technohunter/overwatcher, but uses armor like Ace of Coins for a crazy high limit to social abilities.

Matrix Ninja - A technomancer who focuses on bricking devices and other pests. high matrix ability, low meatspace. Particuarlly enjoys Resonance Spike and Static Bomb. Possibly even Resonance Veil. With this guy, using RV to make it look like you Disconnected, they would have to roll against that. Then roll against you running silent.
Title: Re: [WIP] Technomancer handbook
Post by: Oo Koo on <06-29-14/1042:49>
I think this was mentioned earlier in the thread, but if you get skilljack and skillwires and stick a machine sprite running diagnostics in both you can do this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6AOpomu9V6Q) straight out of chargen and cheaper/more effectively than anyone with plain jack/wires.
Title: Re: [WIP] Technomancer handbook
Post by: rayous on <07-25-14/2024:33>
Triskavanski, What programs do you recommend for Resonance [Program] echos? Signal scrub seems nice as its a constant level 2 resonance channel (better because its just a flat 2 reduction vs reduction of distance). Hammer from how its worded seems like it would work with resonance spike. Wrapper might be nice as you could disguise yourself then use resonance veil to tell systems that the icon you look like just gave the correct codes/etc. Biofeedback could just be mean against spiders (provoke them into killing themselves on your massive full defense resonance+willpowerx2 firewall defense).

I'm curious to see what programs impress you.
Title: Re: [WIP] Technomancer handbook
Post by: Triskavanski on <07-25-14/2038:42>
Well, unfortunately the Echo is pretty lame, and does accent one of the largest problems I do have with the technomancer, being the development bottleneck, since its thirteen karma at least for a handful of nuyen.

Biofeedback would be one I'd take though. Since my technomancers have seven will power to start off with, along with my first goal of getting the pain editor.

Wrapper would be another one, but mostly because it makes it harder for people to ID you while you're blasting them from running silent and you have resonance veil up to make it look like something else is doing the blasting.

Sneak is another one. The reason for this one would be if you're commanding sprites and one of them gets blasted by GOD, then they shouldn't be able to get your physical location.

Hammer is another possibility. It does not specify matrix action, but any action. So it could add in to your DV for Resonance spike

Lockdown is yet another, again it doesn't specifiy the damage has to come from anything particular. So this, + Hammer +Biofeed back could result in some dead hackers,
Title: Re: [WIP] Technomancer handbook
Post by: Xenon on <07-26-14/0325:29>
fork aint too shabby either.
(let you hack two devices or hosts at once without splitting your pool, open two maglocks at once without splitting your pool etc)


but i would probably get overclocking and one rank of mind over machine over program echos
Title: Re: [WIP] Technomancer handbook
Post by: Triskavanski on <07-26-14/0426:40>
fork aint too shabby either.
(let you hack two devices or hosts at once without splitting your pool, open two maglocks at once without splitting your pool etc)


but i would probably get overclocking and one rank of mind over machine over program echos

Pretty much same here.

With Overclocking, you can have the fastest Init on the team while running VR. Pretty much no one can match your speed, especially if you work on the stats that influence this. Personally, my technomancer ideas kinda evolve from this and using leadership to give lots of bonuses to the team by doing several leadership tests in each combat turn.

Its part of the reason I don't see them as a direct Hacker like a Decker, but someone who sits back and lets others do his work for him.
Title: Re: [WIP] Technomancer handbook
Post by: Davidvs on <07-26-14/2330:04>
I'm about to do Submersion for the first time. I would appreciate some suggestions on which Echo to take first. And what order to get other ones. I have a low Cha so I try to be sneakier and less on the attacking. Outside of matrix stuff I am the party doctor.
Title: Re: [WIP] Technomancer handbook
Post by: Triskavanski on <07-27-14/0104:13>
Well, some of it depends on what you intend on doing. If you are more of a Decknomancer and not intending to use a drone, Overclocking can help you make a lot more actions in combat. If you are using a drone, MOM is basically the first echo I'd take, as that gives you combat ability now in the meat world.

Combined with OC, and some machine sprites, your ability to use that drone rapidly increases.


Otherwise if you are not using VR a lot, and you have no intention of using a drone, go for programs, particularly the ones that do something other than add a point here or there.
Title: Re: [WIP] Technomancer handbook
Post by: voydangel on <07-27-14/0152:25>
Just to be clear, I feel like the archtypes you have listed here are very close (if not identical) to some "classic" hacker/technomancer archtypes. Tell me if I'm wrong and/or what tweaks would be needed to make your "modern" archtypes be more like their "classic" equivalents; or how the new 5e rules have forced the classic archtypes to be modified into what you have listed here.


Overwatcher - A technomancer who stays away from the action. Low meat space ability. Doesn't do much hacking themselves. Instead, is usually VRed into the matrix for the increase initiative. Uses Leadership through the matrix along with machine sprites to help the team. A real team player technomancer, despite not being one in much danger. Uses lots of feeds from cameras and other sensors they can get.
This sounds very much like a spider. Is this basically a spider-mancer?


Technohunter - A Technomancer with low matrix presence. uses machine sprites and gear that can be boosted by them. Such as goggles with smartlink+vision enhancements and chameleon suit. Typically would use a sniper rifle or other such weapon to hang back away from the action as they still have lower than normal meatspace ability (Compared to adepts/street sam) Kinda functions more as an army of one.
This sounds like a dronomancer, except you describe the sprites as boosting non-drone devices. I like the idea, but I'm curious if this is basically the same thing or not. That is to say, could this character just as easily have their machine sprites jump into a few drones and tear stuff up that way? Or is this somehow fundamentally different from the build you would use as a dronomancer?


Technoface - A Technomancer who focuses on Charisma based skills. Works like an in between of the technohunter/overwatcher, but uses armor like Ace of Coins for a crazy high limit to social abilities.
This sounds like a face + hacker hybrid. Is there anything special about this archtype that doesn't fall into a regular face + hacker character archtype? (other than simply being a TM of course)


Matrix Ninja - A technomancer who focuses on bricking devices and other pests. high matrix ability, low meatspace. Particuarlly enjoys Resonance Spike and Static Bomb. Possibly even Resonance Veil. With this guy, using RV to make it look like you Disconnected, they would have to roll against that. Then roll against you running silent.
So this sounds like the classic straight up hacker technomancer. Is there anything unique here that deviates from just a standard well built hacker style TM?


I don't mean for any of this to sound like I'm flaming or putting down your ideas. I really enjoy this thread and your document, I'm just trying to get a feel for the roles these archtypes would play and how they are different from other characters filling similar roles or from their classic counterparts.
Title: Re: [WIP] Technomancer handbook
Post by: Triskavanski on <07-27-14/1104:11>
Just to be clear, I feel like the archtypes you have listed here are very close (if not identical) to some "classic" hacker/technomancer archtypes. Tell me if I'm wrong and/or what tweaks would be needed to make your "modern" archtypes be more like their "classic" equivalents; or how the new 5e rules have forced the classic archtypes to be modified into what you have listed here.


Overwatcher - A technomancer who stays away from the action. Low meat space ability. Doesn't do much hacking themselves. Instead, is usually VRed into the matrix for the increase initiative. Uses Leadership through the matrix along with machine sprites to help the team. A real team player technomancer, despite not being one in much danger. Uses lots of feeds from cameras and other sensors they can get.
This sounds very much like a spider. Is this basically a spider-mancer?


Technohunter - A Technomancer with low matrix presence. uses machine sprites and gear that can be boosted by them. Such as goggles with smartlink+vision enhancements and chameleon suit. Typically would use a sniper rifle or other such weapon to hang back away from the action as they still have lower than normal meatspace ability (Compared to adepts/street sam) Kinda functions more as an army of one.
This sounds like a dronomancer, except you describe the sprites as boosting non-drone devices. I like the idea, but I'm curious if this is basically the same thing or not. That is to say, could this character just as easily have their machine sprites jump into a few drones and tear stuff up that way? Or is this somehow fundamentally different from the build you would use as a dronomancer?


Technoface - A Technomancer who focuses on Charisma based skills. Works like an in between of the technohunter/overwatcher, but uses armor like Ace of Coins for a crazy high limit to social abilities.
This sounds like a face + hacker hybrid. Is there anything special about this archtype that doesn't fall into a regular face + hacker character archtype? (other than simply being a TM of course)


Matrix Ninja - A technomancer who focuses on bricking devices and other pests. high matrix ability, low meatspace. Particuarlly enjoys Resonance Spike and Static Bomb. Possibly even Resonance Veil. With this guy, using RV to make it look like you Disconnected, they would have to roll against that. Then roll against you running silent.
So this sounds like the classic straight up hacker technomancer. Is there anything unique here that deviates from just a standard well built hacker style TM?


I don't mean for any of this to sound like I'm flaming or putting down your ideas. I really enjoy this thread and your document, I'm just trying to get a feel for the roles these archtypes would play and how they are different from other characters filling similar roles or from their classic counterparts.


Well the main thing about the archetypes is most of them are pretty mutable, and could be blended together into other kinds.

Technohunter for example initially doesn't use drones, but taking MOM he could go into being a Dronomancer. The main thing here though is he isn't really going around trying to hack everything, and instead functions mostly in the meat world, often with his own body rather than a drones.

Overwatcher - If thats what spiders do, then yes. It really is more of one that assists with the party and could also double as a face.


As for the Matrix Ninja, this guy or the trick over all, exploits a series of events that need to take place, while working not really to hack stuff but simply to brick it all.

Complex forms do not take the penalty for running silent as they are not matrix actions. while running silently, the enemy would need to try to some how find you, first by making a simple perception check followed by a more complex one verses your sleaze.

Now you throw in resonance veil to create a second illusion. You're DCed, and there are hackers sending data spikes at the foe whenever you sense a resonance spike.

So basically, they have to make three perception checks, One to check for hidden icons, one to see past the illusion and one to finally see you.

Meanwhile you suffer no OS at all during all of these attacks, and with a low level high resistance you shouldn't really suffer too much fade really either.


Now of course, as much as I'm very Pro-Technomancer it doesn't mean I don't see the flaws in it.

The CFs are pretty high in their fade value, especially ones like puppeteer and static bomb. Some are too vague and can be super powerful under one GM and useless under another GM. And of course there is the development bottleneck.
Title: Re: [WIP] Technomancer handbook
Post by: TimTurry on <10-28-15/1703:36>
Finding information is really important in for a reference book.  Table of Content & Chapter Headings need to be descriptive.  Look at the Core rulebook for how to do it right (example chapter titles: Skills, Magic, Combat).  They should not be cute and artsy, like Data Trails with headings like "On the Bleeding Edge" and "Born to Hack" (where can I find the new qualities?).

Also, a good index is a must (again, core rulebook is good, and Data Trails, with a missing index is bad).
Title: Re: [WIP] Technomancer handbook
Post by: HiddenBoss on <10-30-15/0947:13>
Static Veil: it super useful for long term over watch like hack some cameras then use Static Veil so your not kick out from being on the matrix too long without rebooting, Cleaner is ok but you got to wait some turns for it to take a effect and you still have OV even if it at 0 so it will go back up due to time so combo it off with static veil means you can keep in there for way longer as long you can take the fade. Useful as well if you need to keep a Sprite in longer and you do not have the time to register them like i need to keep a Data Sprite to do some long term matrix search but it be kill from ov unless i can stop that.

Redundancy
It says it target is device but the core rule book says any CF that has target device can work on a persona, so a TM can  use this on them self to give them a fake Matrix Damage Track, and they can just drop the form and re use it, so if you can take the drain then it can be useful temporary hp boxs. too bad fade is FV+0.

Not sure how it works with deep runs.

Sprites notes

Keep in mind that Sprites do have skills so they can help you with teamwork tests or you can help them with teamwork tests (there no rule saying you can not teamwork test on the matrix as far as i know)

EG: I need to do a matrix search for a threshold 6 but i only got a DP 5, i could try and edge or i can call in a Data Sprite to teamwork test with me to give more dice and a +1 my limit or i can have Data Sprite do the test (so lv6 one so dp10) and i do a teamwork test to help it with more dice and limit, hell i could call a 2nd data Sprite or maybe a machine sprite to help out as well for stability or for it to make a teamwork test as well as it got the Computer skill as well.