Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: RickDeckard on <01-27-19/0846:00>
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I have two questions, one I see has been discussed before, but I'd like to hear specific views on this since it's been a while.
1: As an Adept, am I allowed to change my powers once I've picked them? Like, when I Initiate for instance, can I shuffle my power points around, drop levels in one power, raise another etc?
2: Attribute boost (STR): According to previous discussion and RAW this increase in strength does not affect anything other than dice pools. I find it very odd that it wouldn't affect you DV with unarmed combat. It seems like that would be the most obvious and direct reason for using this power and if it makes my physically stronger then why wouldn't increase my DV?
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1. No.
2. It does effect your damage, what it's saying is the power doesn't effect derived values like Limit, or Initiative which are the result multiple attributes.
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1) 99% no, but technically there is a way to do it... a little. If you accept an essence hit (augmentation, get addicted, etc) you'll correspondingly lose some adept powers. IIRC you get to pick which one(s) you lose. Then later when you buy magic back with karma, you're not under any requirement to re-buy the same adept powers.
2) While the rule IS actually clear that DV does not benefit from Attribute boost since it is a derived value, it's still apparently pretty common to house rule/allow Strength Boost to increase DV during the effect.
As for why by RAW it doesn't... think of the ability being more intended for "Feats of X Attribute" than pure combat relevance. Boosting strength is "intended" for those times when you want to lift the car off the decker, or crowbar the safe open, or etc.
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1) 99% no, but technically there is a way to do it... a little. If you accept an essence hit (augmentation, get addicted, etc) you'll correspondingly lose some adept powers. IIRC you get to pick which one(s) you lose. Then later when you buy magic back with karma, you're not under any requirement to re-buy the same adept powers.
Or you could just spend the same karma and get more powers points...
2) While the rule IS actually clear that DV does not benefit from Attribute boost since it is a derived value, it's still apparently pretty common to house rule/allow Strength Boost to increase DV during the effect.
As for why by RAW it doesn't... think of the ability being more intended for "Feats of X Attribute" than pure combat relevance. Boosting strength is "intended" for those times when you want to lift the car off the decker, or crowbar the safe open, or etc.
I disagree. It calls out what does not change and damage is not listed. Damage is nether a limit nor a derived attribute i.e. Initiative. It's a rating, that run upon one attribute that being strength. Further as I recall the adjustable bow specifically from hard target references it, adding damage.
Further it would make no sense not to, as boost agi, certainly does add to your to hit pool, and there for damage. So by saying that you make one boosted attribute many times more effective then any another.
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I disagree. It calls out what does not change and damage is not listed. Damage is nether a limit nor a derived attribute i.e. Initiative. It's a rating, that run upon one attribute that being strength. Further as I recall the adjustable bow specifically from hard target references it, adding damage.
That's a faulty way to argue it. It doesn't do everything except what it says it doesn't to. It only does what it says it does. That's Rules Lawyering 101.
To quote the exact rule:
When you activate this power, make a Magic + Attribute
Boost Rating Test. Each hit on this test boosts
your attribute rating by 1, up to your augmented Attribute
maximum. This only affects your dice pools; your
Physical limit and Initiative ratings don’t change with
Attribute Boost.
(bolded for emphasis)
"This only affects your dice pools." That's the first clause of the compound sentence. The semicolon indicates that although the first and second clause are sufficiently related to be included in the same sentence, the first is not dependent upon the second.
"This only affects your dice pools." is pretty much as clear as can possibly be said that the effect of this power doesn't go any further than dice pools. The second clause simply clarifying what was already said: "Limits and initiative ratings are not dice pools". Everything else that isn't a dice pool (for example DV) is still NOT a dice pool, despite not being listed as not being a dice pool.
Further it would make no sense not to, as boost agi, certainly does add to your to hit pool, and there for damage. So by saying that you make one boosted attribute many times more effective then any another.
Well that's a quirk of the game engine that goes way beyond Attribute Boost. Saying Strength Boost does count towards DV in your game doesn't change AGI being the virtual end-all-be-all stat for combat capability. If you want to argue interpretation and "shoulda's", I'll submit that the clarification that Attribute Boost doesn't affect limits or initiative is an additional implicit statement that Attribute Boost affects no derived values at all, which would clearly mean no DV as it's derived from STR.
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There is no rules to let you change around your adept powers, but if it is a home game then talk with your GM. "To avoid spending hours trying to predict what I want, could we review my adept powers after a couple of runs and consider tweaks once I have a better feel for them?"
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Something you could do for "hot swapping" some Adept Powers is to have multiple Qi Foci.
Activate the one with Killing Hands when you anticipate combat. Activate the one with social adept powers when you're going to a meet. Etc.
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Well that's a quirk of the game engine that goes way beyond Attribute Boost. Saying Strength Boost does count towards DV in your game doesn't change AGI being the virtual end-all-be-all stat for combat capability. If you want to argue interpretation and "shoulda's", I'll submit that the clarification that Attribute Boost doesn't affect limits or initiative is an additional implicit statement that Attribute Boost affects no derived values at all, which would clearly mean no DV as it's derived from STR.
The purpose of the rules is for the GM to interpret what the writer intentions were to use them, too run a fun game. You're welcome to rules lawyer all the live long day, I spend a lot of time with lawyers, believe me, one bull sh!t artist is not gonna fool another, and your certainly not going convince me argument as weak as that. God knows you and I have read the same quote plenty often and come away from it interpretations that are diametrically opposite. Its clearly what's intended, as it is what agility does, no reason strength shouldn't also work. Saying that is just quirk of the system, and we are just helplessly to do anything but slavishly follow one interpretation of the text is just willful ignorance. Free your mind SSRD the rest will follow! Clearly it's time to submit it for clarification and errata.
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You're also free to believe whatever you want to believe, but I take issue with claiming what I'm saying is bulldrek.
The rule clearly says the ability only applies to dice pools. It goes on to say that two specific things that are not dice pools explicitly do not benefit from it.
If you want to argue that a third thing that is not a dice pool DOES benefit from an ability that only applies to dice pools.. well let's just leave it at my disagreeing that's a logically sound argument.
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Attribute Boost (STR) doesn't make you stronger, it boosts your ability to perform feats of Strength.
For example, it doesn't increase the amount you can carry (derived stat based on attributes), but it does improve your ability to lift heavy objects (Lift/Carry Attribute Test)
By a similar metric, boosting Agility would improve your ability to jump (better dicepool), but would not alter the limits for maximum jumping distances, which are derived values based on Agility.
Damage is not a dicepool, it is a derived value based on Strength. I'm sure there is a common houserule that people use for letting Attribute Boost (Strength) increase melee damage, but the OP is correct, it isn't RAW. And as far as I recall, there haven't been any responses to this topic previously to indicate that the author's intent was to have it the other way either.
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The power you are looking for is:
IMPROVED
PHYSICAL ATTRIBUTE
Cost: 1 PP per level
This power allows you to increase a physical attribute
(Body, Agility, Reaction, and Strength). This augments
your attribute, so your Physical limit may also increase
with the new Attribute rating. This power allows you to
exceed your natural Attribute maximum, up to your augmented
maximum.
Note the differences in the cost, language and terms. (will link boost below in full.)
ATTRIBUTE BOOST
(ATTRIBUTE)
Cost: 0.25 PP per level
Activation: Simple Action
You call upon inner strength to perform amazing physical
feats beyond their normal abilities. Attribute Boost must
be purchased for a specific Physical Attribute (Agility, Body,
Reaction, or Strength); separate Attribute Boost powers
may be bought for different attributes. This power cannot
be purchased for a Mental or Special Attribute.
When you activate this power, make a Magic + Attribute
Boost Rating Test. Each hit on this test boosts
your attribute rating by 1, up to your augmented Attribute
maximum. This only affects your dice pools; your
Physical limit and Initiative ratings don’t change with
Attribute Boost. The boost lasts for a number of Combat
Turns equal to twice the number of hits you get.
When the boost runs out, you take Drain equal to the
level of this power.
You want the increases all the way around, you have to "pay" for it.... You want a tiny boost for a limited time, you pay less for it...
And when you compare the costs of Boosted Attribute to Improved Attribute to improved Ability (the skill increase power) the limits of Boosted becomes a little clearer.
As to "hot swapping" your powers, sadly no there is no in game mechanic. Once you have picked, you have it forever.
However, this really only matters for Missions. I have found many GMs are little more tolerant of powers changes if there was an honest mistake in picking a power. Other options I have seen used when this issue has come up at my tables are:
Initiation ability: If you initiate, instead of getting a meta-magic feat for free, you could re-pick all your powers.
Meta-planar quest: Go on a meta-planar quest to unlearn and relearn powers.
Spirit Pack: Make a pack with a Spirit to "relearn" your powers.
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There is also the Qi Sculpt metamagic in Street Grimoire, which let's you temporarily move your PP between powers that you have. SG pg, 156
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At my table (not Missions) we allow character rebuilds between missions of the players are not completely satisfied with their character. In general the gentleman’s agreement is you cannot drop something you have used a lot unless discussed with the GM council of two.
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Attribute Boost (STR) doesn't make you stronger, it boosts your ability to perform feats of Strength.
For example, it doesn't increase the amount you can carry (derived stat based on attributes), but it does improve your ability to lift heavy objects (Lift/Carry Attribute Test)
By a similar metric, boosting Agility would improve your ability to jump (better dicepool), but would not alter the limits for maximum jumping distances, which are derived values based on Agility.
Damage is not a dicepool, it is a derived value based on Strength. I'm sure there is a common houserule that people use for letting Attribute Boost (Strength) increase melee damage, but the OP is correct, it isn't RAW. And as far as I recall, there haven't been any responses to this topic previously to indicate that the author's intent was to have it the other way either.
I'm putting in Kiir, if agility adds to attack pool, which it does, then agi adds to damage. Thus strength should add to damage as well. Otherwise the power makes no sense.
In all the years i have played SR I don't think i ever even seen a feat of strength rolled, let alone rolled one. So a power that only adds weight lift is totally useless. You wanna lift something in SR? Go get a hydraulic jack and go lift it like ya mean it, if you want feats of strength go play Exalted or Super hero game. There we see some feats of strength rolled. How many times has anyone seen a feat of strength rolled in SR?
Damage isn't derived it has no other attributed added, and it sure as heck isn't listed derived stat section. So that's clearly wrong Kiir. Melee damage comes from strengths, it's what attribute primary value is.
As to your point Reaver I don't buy it ether, the purpose of the power is boost the attribute, down side have put up with drain. Sure it won't effect Limit, that's fine, no wants to recalculate limit constantly and Initiative has power to does that already. But Reaction adds to to dodge or driving pools, agi adds to hitting. Body adds to soak, but strength is just SOL for no reason? That logic makes no sense to me. I'll call BS on it every time.
We can find out what is intended just by submitting it. If comes back y'alls way then the power's name should be errata-ed to make it, boost ever attribute but strength. B/C it will have zero value in systematic terms, and I think that would just a terrible waste for everyone.
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Attribute Boost (STR) doesn't make you stronger, it boosts your ability to perform feats of Strength.
For example, it doesn't increase the amount you can carry (derived stat based on attributes), but it does improve your ability to lift heavy objects (Lift/Carry Attribute Test)
By a similar metric, boosting Agility would improve your ability to jump (better dicepool), but would not alter the limits for maximum jumping distances, which are derived values based on Agility.
Damage is not a dicepool, it is a derived value based on Strength. I'm sure there is a common houserule that people use for letting Attribute Boost (Strength) increase melee damage, but the OP is correct, it isn't RAW. And as far as I recall, there haven't been any responses to this topic previously to indicate that the author's intent was to have it the other way either.
I'm putting in Kiir, if agility adds to attack pool, which it does, then agi adds to damage. Thus strength should add to damage as well. Otherwise the power makes no sense.
In all the years i have played SR I don't think i ever even seen a feat of strength rolled, let alone rolled one. So a power that only adds weight lift is totally useless. You wanna lift something in SR? Go get a hydraulic jack and go lift it like ya mean it, if you want feats of strength go play Exalted or Super hero game. There we see some feats of strength rolled. How many times has anyone seen a feat of strength rolled in SR?
I will grant that dice pools rarely incorporate STR. AGI is for attack pools. REA is for dodge pools. BOD is for soak pools. STR? It's left out. If there's a flaw with STR being undervalued, it's not in Attribute Boost it's in the entire combat system.
That being said, there are more dice pools that incorporate STR than just "feats of strength".
Climbing comes up fairly often, and would benefit from STR Boost. Running and Swimming less so, but they also would benefit from a STR boost. There's even a couple niche cases where STR is relevant to combat dice pools.. for example breaking out of a grapple is Unarmed Combat + STR instead of AGI.
Damage isn't derived it has no other attributed added, and it sure as heck isn't listed derived stat section. So that's clearly wrong Kiir. Melee damage comes from strengths, it's what attribute primary value is.
I'm not sure why you're presumably hung up on the idea that a derived value can only be derived if it involves a computation of 2 or more attributes. Regardless, whether DV is or is not a derived value is ultimately moot. I don't gain anything by proving to you that it is derived.
So instead of agreeing on what DV is, let's agree on what it is NOT?
Can we agree Damage Value is not a dice pool?
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I'm putting in Kiir, if agility adds to attack pool, which it does, then agi adds to damage. Thus strength should add to damage as well. Otherwise the power makes no sense.
I don't follow. A smartgun system adds to your attack pool, that doesn't mean that it enhances damage. Yes, more dice will mean a higher chance of a successful hit, but that isn't equal to a direct bonus to the Damage Value. And no matter, just because one attribute has an effect in a certain way doesn't mean they all do. Yes, some powers might be less effective when used on a particular choice. Elemental Body [Water] might not be as effective as choosing another element.
In all the years i have played SR I don't think i ever even seen a feat of strength rolled, let alone rolled one. So a power that only adds weight lift is totally useless. You wanna lift something in SR? Go get a hydraulic jack and go lift it like ya mean it, if you want feats of strength go play Exalted or Super hero game. There we see some feats of strength rolled. How many times has anyone seen a feat of strength rolled in SR?
Just because it isn't used as often for things doesn't make my example any less valid. I was describing how the adept power affects two aspects of Strength that are extremely close together in different ways. Carrying Capacity vs the test for Lifting (which I have seen used in a game btw)
Damage isn't derived it has no other attributed added, and it sure as heck isn't listed derived stat section. So that's clearly wrong Kiir. Melee damage comes from strengths, it's what attribute primary value is.
derive: (v) obtain something from (a specified source). Synonyms: obtain, get, take, gain, etc...
You derive the value for melee damage from the Strength attribute plus a specified bonus based on weapon or other bonuses. Technically, everything is derived in this game from some source or another. You might have been thinking I was suggesting that it was a "derived Attribute" which some people use to describe the special values that are calculated from other attributes, like Initiative and Limits.
In either case, the Attribute Boost power doesn't mention the term "derive" at all. In fact, Marcus, you were the one who started us off using that term. The power only says "This only affects your dice pools; your Physical limit and Initiative ratings don't change with Attribute Boost." which is the only description for the power's restrictions on use.
It says what it affects (dice pools), and gives a list of two things it does not affect (Initiative and Physical Limit). Those are both restrictive lists which don't contradict one-another, it isn't listing exceptions to what it alters. Initiative and Physical Limit aren't dice pools. It is calling attention to the fact that it doesn't alter derived values, which also includes Physical Damage boxes, movement speeds, or some drug durations, just to name a few.
As to your point Reaver I don't buy it ether, the purpose of the power is boost the attribute, down side have put up with drain. Sure it won't effect Limit, that's fine, no wants to recalculate limit constantly and Initiative has power to does that already. But Reaction adds to to dodge or driving pools, agi adds to hitting. Body adds to soak, but strength is just SOL for no reason? That logic makes no sense to me. I'll call BS on it every time.
We can find out what is intended just by submitting it. If comes back y'alls way then the power's name should be errata-ed to make it, boost ever attribute but strength. B/C it will have zero value in systematic terms, and I think that would just a terrible waste for everyone.
This topic has been discussed many times before, and I expect it will probably come up again. This isn't new, and it wasn't only just realized. It's probably even been discussed by the Errata team already. Possibly even while the Errata team was still fresh. There hasn't been any push to change the wording.
Nevertheless, Damage is not a dicepool, it is a derived value based on Strength. I'm sure there is a common houserule that people use for letting Attribute Boost (Strength) increase melee damage, but the OP is correct, it isn't RAW.
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Kiir, how you can say you don't understand increasing hit increases damage, this blows my mind. Do you not understand the extra success become damage? Have you been playing the same game I have for the last 20 years? Are you actually saying this concept is beyond your understanding?
Elemental aura does what elemental aura does. Which is damage sure some element effects are situationally better or more often applicable then others. But the base power is still effective.
It's not a question of less often, I have never even seen it. Have you? If it never happens and there an obvious and morenlogicsl the power should have, then why are you holding on to something that never happens?
The Derived stats are defined in the system as you well know. I can link a page number if you want Kiir, but i dont see the point. Don't waste my time with useles Symantec arguments, when you already know what I'm referring to.
If the errata team has already considered then it will be fast conversation. It doesn't change my responsibility as member of the community to raise those issues I believe that will make the game and system better. My argument is logical, and I believe it is RAI.
Under y'all bazaar interpretation that power is useless and is so for no reason, other then we can't have a little imagnition. We have seen far more unclear wording addressed and errata over the course of 5th.
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Wow, I think I answered every single thing you commented on in the post that you were probably replying to... I'm not even going to bother quoting myself again, go back and reread my last post. I addressed nearly every question you posed. But here are my responses. I've added them in-line because I'm not going to take the time to make partitioned quotes if you don't bother to read my responses anyway.
Do you not understand the extra success become damage? Already answered
Have you been playing the same game I have for the last 20 years? Are you actually saying this concept is beyond your understanding? Not worth a response.
Elemental aura does what elemental aura does. Which is damage sure some element effects are situationally better or more often applicable then others. But the base power is still effective. Agreed, that's the point, some versions are situational better
It's not a question of less often, I have never even seen it. Have you? Yes, I said I have.
If it never happens and there an obvious and morenlogicsl the power should have, then why are you holding on to something that never happens? This statement is missing some sort of verb or something, I'm guessing you meant something along the lines of "there is a more logical effect the power should have" or something? Still kind of a non-sequitur, since this whole discussion is about how that logic doesn't hold.
The Derived stats are defined in the system as you well know. I can link a page number if you want Kiir, but i dont see the point. Don't waste my time with useles Symantec arguments, when you already know what I'm referring to. I already pointed out the difference between a derived attribute and a derived value. But please, enlighten me with the page that defines this in system. I truly doubt there is something that specifically excludes damage values based on strength from the list of derived values.
If the errata team has already considered then it will be fast conversation. It doesn't change my responsibility as member of the community to raise those issues I believe that will make the game and system better. My argument is logical, and I believe it is RAI.
Under y'all bazaar interpretation that power is useless and is so for no reason, other then we can't have a little imagnition. We have seen far more unclear wording addressed and errata over the course of 5th.
You still haven't addressed the issue of Damage Value is not a dice pool. The wording isn't unclear at all.
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I don't follow. A smartgun system adds to your attack pool, that doesn't mean that it enhances damage. Yes, more dice will mean a higher chance of a successful hit, but that isn't equal to a direct bonus to the Damage Value.
No Kiir, you didn't answer you made a false claim. There is no damage until net positive success hit is achieved that's 0 to 1 conversion an actual infinite step, and then additional success are also damage, that's all direct. Its not same as damage rating which for melee comes strength but as or more direct as an infinite damage would do zero good without hitting.
And no matter, just because one attribute has an effect in a certain way doesn't mean they all do. Yes, some powers might be less effective when used on a particular choice. Elemental Body [Water] might not be as effective as choosing another element.
The base effect is still useful, unlike boost attribute strength which doesn't according to y'all theory.
Just because it isn't used as often for things doesn't make my example any less valid. I was describing how the adept power affects two aspects of Strength that are extremely close together in different ways. Carrying Capacity vs the test for Lifting (which I have seen used in a game btw)
Clearly you understanding flawed, Lift/carry is a derived attribute (page 152 core) and therefore not effect by boosted attribute strength, so if you have seen it wasn't there.
Nevertheless, Damage is not a dicepool, it is a derived value based on Strength. I'm sure there is a common houserule that people use for letting Attribute Boost (Strength) increase melee damage, but the OP is correct, it isn't RAW.
I specified a page ago that damage is a rating.
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The base effect is still useful, unlike boost attribute strength which doesn't according to y'all theory.
There's a difference between arguing that STR boost is useless if it doesn't modify DV (which is what you're arguing) and that STR Boost is not as mechanically advantageous as BOD, REA, or especially AGI as I'm, and I daresay Kiir is, arguing.
It's not attribute boost power's fault that so many combat-relevant dice pools are AGI based and so few are STR based.
And even if it's true that you've never ever seen a STR roll made, it's a fallacy to decree that they never occur. Hell *I'VE* not only seen a bunch of them my characters have made a bunch of them. I made one every time I attempted a climbing test. Hell my SRM Decker even made a bunch of dice pool tests incorporating STR in the form of Running to squeeze some extra meters of movement out of a combat turn.
Page 151 also calls out STR + BOD as the dice pool used for tests to try to lift beyond your derived carrying/lifting capacity. You're right in that STR Boost won't increase your derived value, but it does still serve a non-useless purpose in making a test to exceed that derived value.
I specified a page ago that damage is a rating.
If we all can agree that damage value is not a dice pool, that ought to end the discussion about whether Strength Boost modifies damage value.
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I asked in the FAQ, I'll live with whatever Jayden's answer is for SRM, and I'll play it as believe it was intended at my table.
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Marcus, you're caught up on this "derived values" restriction. That isn't in the Adept power. It only says it only affects dice pools.
The test to lift heavy objects is a Test (Body + Strength), which IS a dice pool. The carrying capacity is not.
The test to avoid being Surprised uses a dice pool (Reaction + Intuition). Initiative is not a dice pool.
The test to hit with weapon is a dice pool (Agility + Weapon Skill). Damage is not a dice pool.
Once again, the issue of derived values is not the issue.
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I'm well aware of what is the issue and what power says Kiir, it's your understanding that seems flawed to me. No kidding, you told me six posts ago that to hit, didn't effect direct damage. That's pretty epic failure in understanding game mechanics, as to hit has pretty well defined combat systems sense the days of thac0. This issue is the result of getting overly generic in writing adept powers. But I've done my part to help fix it. Hopefully it will be, if not we have GM discretion for a reason.
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...so by the same token, forcing a door open, holding a door shut against someone trying to open it, pulling someone up on a rope, grappelling/breaking from a grapple those would be considered tests/opposed tests that involve STR expressed as a pool.
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Marcus, you completely ignored the fact that I outright stated that the ability to hit affects your ability to deal damage. Yes, having a higher dice pool will mean that you will undoubtedly be able to deal more damage overall. What I was denying was your fallacious statement of [Agility improves damage, therefore Strength should improve damage]. Agility increases an attack dice pool, that is not the exact same thing as Strength being added for DV.
Either point us to where in the Attribute Boost power does it say that it adds to anything more than dice pools. Or show us where Damage Value is a dice pool. Otherwise I see no flaw in my logic.
Your argument seems to be based solely on the complaint that Attribute Boost [Strength] is under-powered compared to the other attributes.
EDIT: Yes, KK, those statements are true. Attribute Boost adds to any dice pools that utilize the chosen attribute. That's what the power says it does, and it says (explicitly) that is all it does.
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Thanks for all the comments, chummers.
We don't play hard core RAW at our table, nor do I play Missions (we may house game them, but not in an official capacity) and these are our first 5e characters so there's a bit of wiggle room.
We ended up house ruling that Boost STR does indeed increase DV, otherwise Unarmed Combat is a non-viable route for an Adept and it also just makes more sense.
We also ruled that during Initiation you can shuffle 1 PP around in addition to the new one you potentially if you go through an Ordeal. I think that all works fine.
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Marcus, you completely ignored the fact that I outright stated that the ability to hit affects your ability to deal damage. Yes, having a higher dice pool will mean that you will undoubtedly be able to deal more damage overall.
I'm glad you have come to accept reality.
What I was denying was your fallacious statement of [Agility improves damage, therefore Strength should improve damage]. Agility increases an attack dice pool, that is not the exact same thing as Strength being added for DV.
If one improves damage then the other can also improve damage. The fact is the author isn't adverse to the power Boost Attribute impacting damage. Your welcome to split hairs and We can agree to disagree for the rest.
Your argument seems to be based solely on the complaint that Attribute Boost [Strength] is under-powered compared to the other attributes.
My point remains the wording is the result getting overly generic with wording of boosted Attribute. In game terms you can't roll a simple strength test in any meaningful sense. Lifting/Carrying is a derived attribute as defined by attribute only pool page 152 of the core. This means the only time you can roll a straight strength test is when a GM directly calls for it. That's makes it not just under-powered, it make it useless. I'm not saying I understand the system the best or anything, but I know it well, and I have played and run for long time, that roll doesn't happen. Pretending the power is fine when it will literally never comes into effect isn't under powered, it's useless and it needs to be fixed as I said 2 lines and in basically every post I have made in here. I'm not gonna change your mind, and that's fine. I don't need you to agree.
What I'm saying isn't a radical departure Kiir, and it's not going radically shift the Tech vs. Magic balance in a meaningful way. In fact after what has just come down it should help maintain that balance following a couple very strong introductions to the tech side.
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RickDeckard - I'm glad to hear that you guys have found a solution that works for your table. The Ordeal solution to be able to shuffle a PP sounds great.
I am curious to hear your feedback on the extra STR directly affecting DV in-play if you would be kind enough to share. My fear is that it is over-powered for the cost.
Consider: If you used Agility Boost at rating 4, with a Magic rating of 6 you are rolling 10 dice and have a good chance of coming up with 3 successes. This would boost your Agility pools by 3, which for a combat skill (say Unarmed) should give you - on average - 1 extra hit. Presuming you would hit without the boost, this then translates into +1 DV.
Since the DV of most STR-based weapons is straight STR (plus or minus a little bit), you would be able to achieve the same net +1 DV with Strength Boost at rating 1. This is not only far cheaper, but means that if you used the same PP to buy Strength Boost at rating 4, you would reliably get a +3 boost to DV, far better than Agility Boost.
My personal solution is either a) that you take the hits generated by the Strength Boost (3 in this example) and then roll them as a separate pool, with any hits increasing the DV, or b) simply add the Strength Boost hits as extra dice to your Agility + Weapon Skill roll when using a weapon with STR as part of its damage code. Either way you have the same chance to benefit from extra damage when using STR based weapons with Strength Boost as you do Agility Boost for the same PP cost.
Just my 0.02 Nuyen. YMMV.
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If one improves damage then the other can also improve damage. The fact is the author isn't adverse to the power Boost Attribute impacting damage. Your welcome to split hairs and We can agree to disagree for the rest.
This is a fallacy. Just because one attribute indirectly impacts damage (because having a higher attack dice pool allows you to deal higher damage) does not mean that the power impacts damage values directly or in all cases.
You claim the power has overly generic wording, but it doesn't. It has very precise wording: It only affects dice pools.
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This is a fallacy. Just because one attribute indirectly impacts damage (because having a higher attack dice pool allows you to deal higher damage) does not mean that the power impacts damage values directly or in all cases.
Kiir, read what I said, and stop trying to put words in my mouth, you're not good at it. I said it can, I never said it did. Then I said that fact is the author clearly was ok with the power effective damage. Which you already agreed too so that discussion is over.
Indirect Kiir? Do we need to have the thac0 talk again? I mean really, you just don't seem to get how damage is caused in an modern RPG.
Cause that ain't it.
You claim the power has overly generic wording, but it doesn't. It has very precise wording: It only affects dice pools.
Yes it's overly generic. Generic does not mean overly wordy, is this language barrier issue? One power represents every stat, guess what happens when you use one thing to represent a lot thing that while similar are not exactly alike? You miss the little details that distinguish from one another. Which is exactly what has happened here. That's why it is overly generic, that's the definition of generic, an attempt for one size to try and fit all. Guess what? Unsurprisingly it almost never works. If we were in another edition we might well have had a separate version of the power for each stat, that would almost certainly address finer points that distinguish the stats. But we don't have that we have a overly generic power that present different stats with one short non-sophisticated and incomplete wording.
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Kiir, read what I said, and stop trying to put words in my mouth, you're not good at it. I said it can, I never said it did. Then I said that fact is the author clearly was ok with the power effective damage. Which you already agreed too so that discussion is over.
Not putting words in your mouth, you stated previously that you think the power does add to damage. Now you are only claiming that it can? Make up your mind. AND...
Indirect Kiir? Do we need to have the thac0 talk again? I mean really, you just don't seem to get how damage is caused in an modern RPG.
YES, indirect. Directly adding to damage is what Strength does (in the case of most melee weapons). The DV is equal to Strength plus some constant. Changing Strength directly affects the DV. Other examples of things that affect damage directly are: Critical Strike Adept Power, some ammunitions, some implants.
Indirectly affecting damage is what Agility does. Because changing the amount of dice that you roll for your attack invariably alters the average damage you deal, between net hits adding to the DV for most attacks and simply being able to hit, there is a lot of variation here. If we really want to go into the math, on average increasing Agility will increase the damage of an attack by about one third (because for every three dice, you can expect to get one extra hit). But like I said, this is inconsistent based on the situation.
So the way I would prefer to refer to this is that the increase to damage from the Attribute Boost [Agility] adept power is incidental to the intended effect of the power.
Incidental (adj): accompanying but not a major part of something.
The Power says it only affects dice pools, which is all I'm interpreting it as doing.
Now, the list of dice pools that can be affected for each attribute is different. Of course, all of the skill rolls that utilize an attribute are affected. And it just so happens that Agility is the attribute used to hit with attacks. And yes, having more dice on these rolls results in more damage (on average). Boosting Body reduces the damage taken, but it doesn't affect the number of boxes on your Condition Monitor. Boosting Reaction increases your chances of not being surprised, which can affect your Initiative, but Initiative is explicitly stated as being unaffected by the power.
I believe we are waiting still on where Damage Values are defined as a dice pool for the purposes of this power. Since the power "only affects your dice pools;" that seems fairly explicit.
Yes it's overly generic. Generic does not mean overly wordy, is this language barrier issue? One power represents every stat, guess what happens when you use one thing to represent a lot thing that while similar are not exactly alike? You miss the little details that distinguish from one another. Which is exactly what has happened here. That's why it is overly generic, that's the definition of generic, an attempt for one size to try and fit all. Guess what? Unsurprisingly it almost never works. If we were in another edition we might well have had a separate version of the power for each stat, that would almost certainly address finer points that distinguish the stats. But we don't have that we have a overly generic power that present different stats with one short non-sophisticated and incomplete wording.
As far as I'm aware, this power has had only one write-up which covers all Physical Attributes since the game's inception. The specific rules have changed, but there has never been separate write-ups for each attribute.
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The power Boost Ability does add to damage, as BSA adds to damage. You already admitted this like 5 post ago, stop wasting my time. I believe strength can also add to damage (You don't agree, with that part and that's fine). But for sure power Boost Ability does add to damage, thus my point on RAI has clear validity.
Hitting comes first is therefore is direct, your damage rating has zero relevance in combat if you never hit. It's that simple, I think i have explained this to you three times now. Are you just ignore this concept for some reason? So hitting never indirect, it literally infinatly (0 to 1 lol) more important then whatever your damage rating is, its the definition of direct.
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BSA?
I'm talking about the Damage Value. When something increases the raw value of damage (like how Melee damage is equal to Str+) when something increasing Strength adds to damage, that is direct.
When the damage value is being increased as a result of another sequence of events (rolling well on the attack and managing to hit the target, that is indirect.
You may not like the terms I'm using, or refer to these things differently, but I've defined what I'm meaning several times and explicitly described the difference that I'm talking about.
Boosting Agility doesn't explicitly increase damage. You will deal more damage as the result of having an increased chance of hitting.
Increasing the chance to hit is not exactly the same as increasing the raw damage value.
Is the damage value of an attack a dice pool?
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RickDeckard - I'm glad to hear that you guys have found a solution that works for your table. The Ordeal solution to be able to shuffle a PP sounds great.
I am curious to hear your feedback on the extra STR directly affecting DV in-play if you would be kind enough to share. My fear is that it is over-powered for the cost.
Consider: If you used Agility Boost at rating 4, with a Magic rating of 6 you are rolling 10 dice and have a good chance of coming up with 3 successes. This would boost your Agility pools by 3, which for a combat skill (say Unarmed) should give you - on average - 1 extra hit. Presuming you would hit without the boost, this then translates into +1 DV.
Since the DV of most STR-based weapons is straight STR (plus or minus a little bit), you would be able to achieve the same net +1 DV with Strength Boost at rating 1. This is not only far cheaper, but means that if you used the same PP to buy Strength Boost at rating 4, you would reliably get a +3 boost to DV, far better than Agility Boost.
My personal solution is either a) that you take the hits generated by the Strength Boost (3 in this example) and then roll them as a separate pool, with any hits increasing the DV, or b) simply add the Strength Boost hits as extra dice to your Agility + Weapon Skill roll when using a weapon with STR as part of its damage code. Either way you have the same chance to benefit from extra damage when using STR based weapons with Strength Boost as you do Agility Boost for the same PP cost.
Just my 0.02 Nuyen. YMMV.
Yeah, I see your point. We haven't played since we decided on this, and I haven't actually used it in-game at all. We're a group of older gamers in our 40s and we've played together for 20-odd years, some of us longer. That means we're past the power gaming stage, so we tend to just throttle ourselves to whatever level we need and the GM will adjust accordingly. So I'm not gonna power up just to beat on a few gangers, but since I'm all fists based it's a nice reserve to have should we run into some hard drek. If I wanted to do max dmg I wouldn't have gone with Unarmed, but the most badass blade I could find, but Unarmed is more fun for role-playing, so in order for it to be viable long term it needs a boost. I also don't think it's a far stretch to say the increased STR results in increased DV for STR based weapons. I rather have to suspend disbelief in order to read the rules as written.
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BSA- Typoed that intended that to be BAA (Boosted Attribute Agility)
In melee, unarmed, bows, Strength may add to something to determine a damage rating, or as with guns which have damage rating modified by Ammo.
Boosting Agility doesn't explicitly increase damage. You will deal more damage as the result of having an increased chance of hitting.
This is actually not accurate Kiir, from two points.
First technical no attack explicitly causes damage Kiir as all attack can miss, If an attack is to cause damage at all. It will only occur b/c of a successful to Hit roll, and if BAA is use, the that roll is improved by BAA. So if you want get really technical about it when using BAA it always makes damage more likely to occur, Second as additional net hit also add to damage it BAA will also increase the likelihood you will do still more damage. So you can actually say its doing double duty when it comes to damage.
You like to call damage rating, direct damage which is a highly inaccurate and misleading way to refer to it, for the reason i've explained clearly and you keep italicizing indirect lol.
The point remains author wasn't concerned that BAA cause damage. Thus the point stands and thus is RAI.
How many times do you want ride this marry-go-round Kiir? Wanna see if we can make it into Sonnet next time?
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@Grizzly
Thank you for sharing your experiences. A few months ago I was involved in a debate here that largely paralleled Marcus' and Kiirnodel's spirited discussion. I asked if anyone found it unbalanced for Attribute Boost (STR) to apply to damage; nobody publicly said so at the time. I'm glad to have your opinion to consider.
I find that most players will have Magic 6 + Attribute Boost 1 to keep drain to a minimum. That means 7 dice which we'll take to mean 2 hits, so +2 to the attribute in question.
When comparing Attribute Boost (STR) with (AGI) one must take into account that AGI makes it more likely to hit / do damage in the first place, so that helps offset STR's potential advantage in pure damage bonus.
Adepts can boost their damage via Critical Strike and Death Dealer, but that combo maxes out at +2. This is starkly different than Fourth Edition, where adepts could get ranks in Critical Strike equal to their Magic attribute, which resulted in the "I punch through worlds" adept, especially since 4E's damage values and armor values were about half of their 5E equivalents. My experience is that Fifth Edition's constraints on Critical Strike effectively mean that humans and elves are almost never unarmed specialists due to their limited STR attributes (unless they use Nerve Strike, which is outside of the STR conversation).
One could argue that melee in general is suboptimal, given its range restrictions and comparatively limited damage compared to firearms. These are realistic disadvantages but I'm personally looking for a balanced gameplay experience rather than a pure simulation.
With that in mind, my personal experience is that between the action economy of Attribute Boost (specifically, the need for a Simple Action) and its drain considerations, having Attribute Boost (STR) add to the damage value of unarmed attacks and melee weapons is by no means unbalanced, and goes a long way toward making humans and elves into viable unarmed combatants. It puts them in a position where they can take STR 5 + Critical Strike 1 + Death Dealer 1 + Attribute Boost (STR) 2 = 9 DV, so now they're at least competitive with a heavy pistol. But, as you say, your miles may vary.
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Damage. Is. Not. A. Dice. Pool.
The Power only affects Dice Pools.
I'm tired of making very clear and deliberate gestures of trying to define my point. I'm spelling out descriptions of the terminology I'm using, and trying to explain things in precise detail. All just to have it turned around and torn down by attacking something completely different.
I've explained what I mean by affecting the DV of an attack directly vs. indirectly. And it really doesn't matter. What are you adding the bonus from the power to? Is it a Dice Pool?
In my very first post, I said that it was a common houserule, it just isn't RAW. I've been debating this back and forth because someone seems to have this idea that it is spelled out clear as day that it adds to damage, when it really isn't.
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RickDeckard - I'm glad to hear that you guys have found a solution that works for your table. The Ordeal solution to be able to shuffle a PP sounds great.
I am curious to hear your feedback on the extra STR directly affecting DV in-play if you would be kind enough to share. My fear is that it is over-powered for the cost.
Consider: If you used Agility Boost at rating 4, with a Magic rating of 6 you are rolling 10 dice and have a good chance of coming up with 3 successes. This would boost your Agility pools by 3, which for a combat skill (say Unarmed) should give you - on average - 1 extra hit. Presuming you would hit without the boost, this then translates into +1 DV.
Since the DV of most STR-based weapons is straight STR (plus or minus a little bit), you would be able to achieve the same net +1 DV with Strength Boost at rating 1. This is not only far cheaper, but means that if you used the same PP to buy Strength Boost at rating 4, you would reliably get a +3 boost to DV, far better than Agility Boost.
My personal solution is either a) that you take the hits generated by the Strength Boost (3 in this example) and then roll them as a separate pool, with any hits increasing the DV, or b) simply add the Strength Boost hits as extra dice to your Agility + Weapon Skill roll when using a weapon with STR as part of its damage code. Either way you have the same chance to benefit from extra damage when using STR based weapons with Strength Boost as you do Agility Boost for the same PP cost.
Just my 0.02 Nuyen. YMMV.
Yeah, I see your point. We haven't played since we decided on this, and I haven't actually used it in-game at all. We're a group of older gamers in our 40s and we've played together for 20-odd years, some of us longer. That means we're past the power gaming stage, so we tend to just throttle ourselves to whatever level we need and the GM will adjust accordingly. So I'm not gonna power up just to beat on a few gangers, but since I'm all fists based it's a nice reserve to have should we run into some hard drek. If I wanted to do max dmg I wouldn't have gone with Unarmed, but the most badass blade I could find, but Unarmed is more fun for role-playing, so in order for it to be viable long term it needs a boost. I also don't think it's a far stretch to say the increased STR results in increased DV for STR based weapons. I rather have to suspend disbelief in order to read the rules as written.
It wont break the game. They should have just let you have multiple levels of critical strike for unarmed combat like in 4e. And honestly it should probably still be .25DV. If you build heavy into it, orc/troll max strength, blah blah you can get a crazy base DV. Thing is at some point it just doesn't matter much. Take some bioware/cyberware have a 9+ strength with modified bones, 1 level of critical strike and your base DV is kill everything anyway. So all more damage would do is pad it for niche enemies that might take 2 hits if you didn't. What this will allow with attribute boost is to let a core concept of the game a human/elf non muscle bound monster punch and kill enemies like they have in every edition up to 5e. Since guns easily get into high damage with AP outside non min max builds you wont see a adept taking over thanks to a potential +4DV from attribute boost.
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I will join the Adept questions and ask one myself.
If I initiated and got one power point but I want a power that cost 1.5 points, can I just keep this power for my next initiation, so I will 2 points and be able to buy the power?
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If I initiated and got one power point but I want a power that cost 1.5 points, can I just keep this power for my next initiation, so I will 2 points and be able to buy the power?
Yes, correct, although I might recommend spending the spare 0.5 power point after the first initiation so that you can use it to stay alive until the second initiation.
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@Grizzly
Thank you for sharing your experiences. A few months ago I was involved in a debate here that largely paralleled Marcus' and Kiirnodel's spirited discussion. I asked if anyone found it unbalanced for Attribute Boost (STR) to apply to damage; nobody publicly said so at the time. I'm glad to have your opinion to consider.
I find that most players will have Magic 6 + Attribute Boost 1 to keep drain to a minimum. That means 7 dice which we'll take to mean 2 hits, so +2 to the attribute in question.
When comparing Attribute Boost (STR) with (AGI) one must take into account that AGI makes it more likely to hit / do damage in the first place, so that helps offset STR's potential advantage in pure damage bonus.
Adepts can boost their damage via Critical Strike and Death Dealer, but that combo maxes out at +2. This is starkly different than Fourth Edition, where adepts could get ranks in Critical Strike equal to their Magic attribute, which resulted in the "I punch through worlds" adept, especially since 4E's damage values and armor values were about half of their 5E equivalents. My experience is that Fifth Edition's constraints on Critical Strike effectively mean that humans and elves are almost never unarmed specialists due to their limited STR attributes (unless they use Nerve Strike, which is outside of the STR conversation).
One could argue that melee in general is suboptimal, given its range restrictions and comparatively limited damage compared to firearms. These are realistic disadvantages but I'm personally looking for a balanced gameplay experience rather than a pure simulation.
With that in mind, my personal experience is that between the action economy of Attribute Boost (specifically, the need for a Simple Action) and its drain considerations, having Attribute Boost (STR) add to the damage value of unarmed attacks and melee weapons is by no means unbalanced, and goes a long way toward making humans and elves into viable unarmed combatants. It puts them in a position where they can take STR 5 + Critical Strike 1 + Death Dealer 1 + Attribute Boost (STR) 2 = 9 DV, so now they're at least competitive with a heavy pistol. But, as you say, your miles may vary.
Thanks for the input.
One quick question though - I don't often create adepts with powers requiring rolls, so I've just gone back and re-read the power in depth and noticed that there isn't a limit specified for Attribute Boost. Is this correct or is there errata on this?
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One quick question though - I don't often create adepts with powers requiring rolls, so I've just gone back and re-read the power in depth and noticed that there isn't a limit specified for Attribute Boost. Is this correct or is there errata on this?
Do you mean capital-L Limits, like Astral limits, or do you mean a cap on how many ranks you can have?
There's no Limit of which I am aware, although there is an effective cap of +4 because any one attribute rating can only receive an augmentation bonus of up to +4. (See page 94.)
As for how many ranks of the power, you're capped at a number of ranks equal to your Magic rating. See page 308: "The maximum number of levels you can have of any one power is equal to your Magic Rating, or up to a limit listed by the power, whichever is less."
In practice, the power's drain calculation ("Drain equal to the number of levels you have in this power") usually means that players take a minimal number of ranks.
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You got stamina Kiir. I have never once said damage was a dice pool, I have always did it was a Rating. I never once claimed what I am suggesting is RAW. I do think what i'm suggesting is RAI. But that's an area open interpritation. BA raw says it adds to dice pools. I'm saying it can be changed so that bas adds to damage rating. I'm NOT claiming that's RAW. But I'm saying that I believe it's RAI.
Does that work for You?
I still think a sonnet would have been better...
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Do you mean capital-L Limits, like Astral limits, or do you mean a cap on how many ranks you can have?
There's no Limit of which I am aware, although there is an effective cap of +4 because any one attribute rating can only receive an augmentation bonus of up to +4. (See page 94.)
As for how many ranks of the power, you're capped at a number of ranks equal to your Magic rating. See page 308: "The maximum number of levels you can have of any one power is equal to your Magic Rating, or up to a limit listed by the power, whichever is less."
In practice, the power's drain calculation ("Drain equal to the number of levels you have in this power") usually means that players take a minimal number of ranks.
I meant Limits, such as when a Mage casts a spell the max number of hits is limited by the force of the spell (absent reagents, etc). If I take any of the Attribute Boosts at Rank 1, my immediate thought based on the general structure of 5e is that I would be limited to only 1 hit being applied, regardless of how many I rolled. A closer inspection of the notation suggests that this is not the case, that if you rolled three hits you keep three hits even if you only have 1 rank.
This seems a bit...unusual... at least to me. So I was wondering if this was as intended or if there was an errata noting that it should be limited in some way.
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It's probably intentional.. as you're already given an unbreakable limit in the form of the Augmented Maximum.
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There's no Limit of which I am aware, although there is an effective cap of +4 because any one attribute rating can only receive an augmentation bonus of up to +4. (See page 94.)
I'm not sure on that one. The power states that each hit adds 1 "up to your augmented Attribute maximum." In other discussions I believe it has been pointed out that this is the upper max limit, not just a limit of +4.
A human has a normal max STR of 6 and an augmented STR max of 10. Items such as cyberware/bioware cannot exceed a max augmentation bonus of +4, so if you only have a natural STR of 3 your augmentations can't get you above 7, but the "augmented Attribute maximum" is still 10 as you can increase your base STR by karma expenditure.
This means you could play a relatively low-strength adept who uses a high Edge score to add lots of dice to his Boost STR Attribute roll and potentially hit the upper limit for their metatype, all for a very very cheap 0.25pp for a single rank, no drain worth speaking of, and it would last even through a long and protracted fight (since duration is 2x hits in combat turns and most close-range fights are over very quickly).
Hmm..now I have to work on a character concept... :)
In terms of balance I think I might still prefer taking the hits granted by STR boost as extra dice on attacks with a STR-based damage code, but just having add directly to STR and therefore the DV of the attack would certainly be cool.
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There’s also the Penetrating Strike that works as armor piercing, which helps us human adepts that like to punch people =). It weighs up a bit for the lower dmg
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Augmented Maximum is +4 from your current Attribute Rating, not Racial Max +4.
That is a change from previous editions, but very intentional.
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Ok, that’s definitely different from what Chummer shows. But makes sense.