[I_AM_ZHOUL!!!]

Oh ok so personas have a fire wall rating and a data processing rating automatically

They have the same matrix attributes that the device they are based on. A persona based on a cyberdeck will for example have all four matrix attributes...

and hosts are physical devices that spiders directly log in to

No, you log into a grid. Hosts are virtual matrix only entities that you can enter from the grids (they exists on all grids at once).

also why the hell does a quarter of a millon dollar piece of hardware have lower matrix condition and a fire wall/dataprocessing rating than a smart phone that costs a fraction of the cost?

A standard cyberdeck have same or higher matrix ratings than a standard commlink, if you compare two that have same device rating that is.

The cyberdeck is more expensive because, unlike a standard commlink, a cyberdeck can run an agent, common cyberprograms, hacker cyberprograms, alter it's matrix attribute array on the fly, have both an attack- and sleaze-rating, come with a wire that can be used to bypass host ratings on slaved devices and have a cyberdeck module slot.

oh ya, so for your consideration:
Transys Avalon 6 12 5,000¥

3000 in packs add attribute

The Increase a Matrix Attribute modification
can later be added to this modification

Packs to increase attribute 1000

Matrix attribute Dongle 3 27000

Total cost 36000 Matrix attributes Data processing 6 Firewall 6 Attack 4 Stealth 2/Stealth 4 Attack 2 Matrix condition boxes 9
+21 000 if you want +1 rating dongle so 57000

vs

Microdeck Summit attribute array 4 3 3 1 programs 1  3R 58,000¥ Matrix condition boxes 8 or 9 if you round up

Microtrónica Azteca 200 Attribute array 5 4 3 2 programs 2 110,250¥ Matrix condition boxes 9

Hermes Chariot Attribute array 5 4 4 2 programs 2 123,000¥ Matrix condition boxes 9

Microtrónica Azteca 300 Attribute array 7 5 3 1 programs 3 9R 200,000¥ Matrix condition boxes 8 or 9 if you round up

Shiawase Cyber-4 Attribute array 8 6 4 2 Programs 3 12R 331,000¥ Matrix condition boxes 10

Failing to see the point here... A. Commlink can't run Programs & B. The fixed Attribute Decks are much cheaper that the non-fixed ones when counting by a straight Attribute total as well as generally having a higher Program count. It's all about Game Balance... Decks are supposed to be a huge chunk of Chargen, just like Cyber is Street Sams or Magic for Mages or Control Rig/Drones are for a Rigger. What you are advocating for is completely overpowered... it'd be the CoDzilla of Shadowrun.

CoDzilla is an old D&D term for Clerics & Druid who were actually designed specifically to be stronger than all other classes by Gary Gygax himself. They are classes that were commonly played as GM PCs or someone's girlfriend (I know I always made them play a Cleric.) But in the hands of a good Powergamer they can easily be Game Breakers... I know that as well since if I was denied the chance to use Psionics in a game, I'd make a CoDzilla to break it.

[Xenon]

Personally, I think the whole "your persona icon subsumes the device icon" thing is totally unnecessary. Strip that part out and everything works great. Commlinks/Decks can still serve as masters and they don't disappear from the rest of the matrix if you enter a Host. It opens up the possibility that you could be attacked from multiple sources (IC in a host, security decker on the grid) but you already potentially have that problem if you run an agent.

Agreed.


I don't see the game mechanic advantage of the merging icons. At all. Only potential issues.

For example what if a drone is slaved to a host, security rigger  base his persona on his rcc, enter host with his persona and then use the direct connection from the host to jump into the drone.

If you find the rcc you still can't spot it's device icon because it is merged into the security riggers persona. You can't spot the security riggers persona since it is inside a host. If you find the drone you can't spot it's device icon since it is merged into the security riggers persona and since the security rigger have not used exit host (if he jump out of the device then he will still be inside the host) you might or might not see his persona icon out on the grid.... how do you even know which host the persona entered.

If you slave a smartgun to a commlink and then base your persona on the commlink. Then the device icon will be transformed into a persona icon. A persona cannot be part of a PAN... does this mean the smartlink is no longer slaved to your commlink...? Can the smartgun still be slaved if you form a persona on the commlink and then use the persona to enter a host. Do the matrix icon even have anything to do with slaving in the first place or is it a non matrix action you perform on a device that doesn't even require that you have a persona in the first place.

So many potential issues and situations that you would fully avoid if the device still have its icon on the grid even if you base your Persona on it.....

[JackVII]

That would mean that your Commlink could be attacked at 2 separate places from the Matrix as well as why would you ever do it in the first place???

So basically, like what could already happen in SR4 and what can already happen in SR5 if you're running an agent. So, no problem and there are obviously reasons to do it if that's how the rules worked in the first place. I mean, you're a decker, you probably would want to break into a host at some point.

All the issues that people are claiming to have are from having problems breaking the rules with obvious gaming the system if not just outright trying to cheat it.

No, they aren't and that's quite a comprehensive statement. Most of the legitimate issues come from unclear writing. PANS and WANS as well as Ownership are both terribly unclear and have been the source of many arguments on these boards. Sadly, Data Trails really doesn't clarify either.

But doing things like trying to string 3 Commlinks together with Dongles & Modifications to get Cyberdecks IS NOT something that they were EVER trying to achieve!!!

Um, agreed? I'm not sure where I ever gave the impression that I agreed with that... it's funny, because we're just rehashing arguments many of us have already had on these forums for the last two or so years. Most of the arguing comes from two sources: people out and out trying to game the system (Slaving deck to commlink to get a Firewall boost while still running a persona on the deck) and people disagreeing over rules interpretations (whether the PAN relationship is a purely Matrix-based one composed of icons or whether the use of the word device is supposed to refer to actual physical devices).

[Rooks]

[quote author=I_AM_ZHOUL!!! link=topic=20870.msg378516#msg378516 date=1434611813

Failing to see the point here... A. Commlink can't run Programs & B. The fixed Attribute Decks are much cheaper that the non-fixed ones when counting by a straight Attribute total as well as generally having a higher Program count. It's all about Game Balance... Decks are supposed to be a huge chunk of Chargen, just like Cyber is Street Sams or Magic for Mages or Control Rig/Drones are for a Rigger. What you are advocating for is completely overpowered...
[/quote]

So that street level campaigns can have decking options? so that they dont have to take priority level A and get a crappy deck and thats it? and what I am "advocating" is already in the game ya commlinks dont have the ability to run programs or swap attributes oh no I dont get plus one to a matrix attribute boohoo ok it does suck that you cant have baby monitor running or fork a matrix ability or +2 to a specific ability or cant run agents, but at least it gives a feesable reason for someone to have hacking ability and not access to a quarter million at character start (like street campaigns generally do) otherwise how did you even get a deck?

[Xenon]

You could get a limit of 4, increased by swiching in the correct cyberprograms to 5 or even 6 (which is good for a dice pool of 16+ dice), on your primary matrix attribute for ~50.000¥ ...using standard cyberdecks and core rules.

[I_AM_ZHOUL!!!]

You could get a limit of 4, increased by swiching in the correct cyberprograms to 5 or even 6 (which is good for a dice pool of 16+ dice), on your primary matrix attribute for ~50.000¥ ...using standard cyberdecks and core rules.

Always the Voice of Logic....

[quote author=I_AM_ZHOUL!!! link=topic=20870.msg378516#msg378516 date=1434611813

Failing to see the point here... A. Commlink can't run Programs & B. The fixed Attribute Decks are much cheaper that the non-fixed ones when counting by a straight Attribute total as well as generally having a higher Program count. It's all about Game Balance... Decks are supposed to be a huge chunk of Chargen, just like Cyber is Street Sams or Magic for Mages or Control Rig/Drones are for a Rigger. What you are advocating for is completely overpowered...

So that street level campaigns can have decking options? so that they dont have to take priority level A and get a crappy deck and thats it? and what I am "advocating" is already in the game ya commlinks dont have the ability to run programs or swap attributes oh no I dont get plus one to a matrix attribute boohoo ok it does suck that you cant have baby monitor running or fork a matrix ability or +2 to a specific ability or cant run agents, but at least it gives a feesable reason for someone to have hacking ability and not access to a quarter million at character start (like street campaigns generally do) otherwise how did you even get a deck?
[/quote]

If you are in a "street level" campaign then you shouldn't be using a quarter million dollar deck or anything else that gives you a facsimile of a quarter million dollar deck. If that's what you need to accomplish your missions that you are in a regular level campaign. Dongles & a Program Module with Virtual Machine on it would be an appropriate piece of gear to use there. 3 different Commlinks daisy chained to use different Modules & Dongles to simulate a quarter million dollar deck is broken.

[JmOz01]

Came up with a build...tell me what you think.

0300  Forearm Guard
0300  YNT Softweave
5000  Fresnel Fabric Rating 5
5250 Transys Avalon w/hotsim
3000 Level 1 Stealth Dongle
0500 (Electronic Parts)
0900 Program Module: Smoke And Mirrors
--------
15,250

besides providing a +1 Armor and having one capacity left over (Would have loved if you could add a datatap, but AR Gloves or Trodes if my reading is right would be fitting.  Note that you could basically be rocking a 6/6/6/- with this thing

[Xenon]

(i might totally misunderstood what i am about to quote, in that case I'll take this opportunity to apologize in advance )

Would have loved if you could add a datatap,

You mean the Cable Tap Commlink Dongle.......?

but AR Gloves or Trodes if my reading is right would be fitting. 

This have nothing to do with datatap (or cable tap for that matter).

Either you have DNI (by wearing trodes, or having an implanted datajack, commlink, or cyberdeck SR5 p. 222) or you use AR glove, image link and ear buds to experience AR.

If you want to experience cold-sim or hot-sim VR (and since you mod it with a forbidden hot-sim module i guess you are) then you are required to have DNI (you have no use for AR glove, image link and ear buds if you have DNI).

[JmOz01]

I was looking at it as an armor mod.  When talking about the trodes or datatap.  The armor has  1 capacity left over

[Xenon]

Ahh. I now see

Well in Core; Trodes take up 2 capacity in a helmet.
(Unless of course Run n Gun changed things).

You can probably attach the cable in your cyberdeck to a datatap... and leave it there. Once you run into a device that is wired you can then attach the datatap directly to the cable and get a direct connection to both devices the cable is connected to. You can also mod your cyberdeck so you only have to physically place it against a device to get a direct connection to it.


Maybe you can use your last capacity to fit a sensor of some sort....?

[Kincaid]

R&G breaks it down by function, not what sort of armor can take what sort of accessory.  You can't put AR gloves [1] in your helmet, even though that's not actually specified.  Similarly, you can't put trodes in something that doesn't touch your head.  Interestingly, trodes in R&G are listed as taking Capacity [1], not [2] like it mentions in core.  I don't think either value has been subject of errata, but the Capacity table in R&G has its own issues, so I'd defer to core.

[Groovy]

If im reading correctly, you can't use the program carrier on a commlink as it is listed in the cyberdeck's dongle and not in the commlink's ones.

[Adamo1618]

If im reading correctly, you can't use the program carrier on a commlink as it is listed in the cyberdeck's dongle and not in the commlink's ones.

The rules in page 66 allows you to add a cyberdeck mdule to a commlink ^^

[Groovy]

You're right, I forgot that.
However the core rulebook says that programs are made for cyberdecks right? "Programs (technically cyberprograms if they’re for the Matrix) are files you can run on your deck" So I'm not sure if the program in the program carrier would even work.

[ScytheKnight]

 program carrier isn't just a memory unit, it's also a processor dedicated to running the selected program.