[Crash_00]

Again, you're claiming that because you think it's "broken" it means that it is, no ifs ands or buts about it. And another thing, the firearms and vehicle creation rules were something heavily dependent on GM approval (even more so than character generation itself). If a particular firearm design doesn't fit your game, disallow that design and try again.

No. There is a level of balance that has to be maintained when creating anything within a game system. Its one of the two fundamental concepts in game design. When something is ridiculously out of order mechanically (a rifle with light pistol concealability for example), it breaks both the Immersion for players (because it makes no damn sense) and the other weapons in the game (why pick up a light pistol if you can get a short barreled bullpup 50 round assault rifle that you can apparently conceal in the small of your back).

The GM approval disclaimer does not excuse things being unbalanced. The system was flawed at a design level. The GM is already allowed to disallow anything in their given game. The problem with the Firearm Creation Rules was that rather than having to try and break the system for an unbalanced creation, you had to try not to break the system for an unbalanced creation. Again, that's just poor design no matter what field you're working in.

[ArkangelWinter]

I follow a rule, when GMing, that my first Mechwarrior GM told me.
 
"At this table, I make commandments. I am your god and you shall have no other gods before me"

[Kylen]

I would likely not play a d20 SR. It's like playing D20 BESM. It's just not the same, and would be a different game to me. Kinda like how people now differentiate between d6 Star Wars and d20 Star Wars.

[JustADude]

I would likely not play a d20 SR. It's like playing D20 BESM. It's just not the same, and would be a different game to me. Kinda like how people now differentiate between d6 Star Wars and d20 Star Wars.

Couldn't agree more; I pretty much despise d20 based games. I'll play them if, and only if, they're the only thing going, and even then only if I can bum someone else's books to make my character with.

[Crimsondude]

Does anyone play D20 anymore?

[Mirikon]

Does anyone play D20 anymore?

Yes. Over on RPOL, there are plenty of D&D games going on (from OD&D to D&D4), as well as Mutants & Masterminds (which is basically d20 Superheroes). And there are definitely groups IRL that still play games on the d20 system.

[FastJack]

Does anyone play D20 anymore?

Well, I'm still big into Pathfinder, but that is a derivative of the d20 system.

[All4BigGuns]

Does anyone play D20 anymore?

Well, I'm still big into Pathfinder, but that is a derivative of the d20 system.

I'll still play that and 3.5 D&D, as well as the Star Wars systems in the system.

[Crash_00]

D20ifying it would definitely be the nail in the coffin as far as I'm concerned. I didn't switch over to the brief D20 Deadlands stint, won't even go to the Savage Worlds crap they put out. Sure didn't touch the D20 Swashbuckling Adventures stuff (D20 version of 7th Sea). The only possible benefit is it might drag more people to the game, but then we'd have to drag them from their D20 system to a real system. Trying to explain that there are no classes is something I don't feel like having to do again.

[ArkangelWinter]

Just follow the Mutants and Masterminds 1st ed template, no classed

[All4BigGuns]

D20ifying it would definitely be the nail in the coffin as far as I'm concerned. I didn't switch over to the brief D20 Deadlands stint, won't even go to the Savage Worlds crap they put out. Sure didn't touch the D20 Swashbuckling Adventures stuff (D20 version of 7th Sea). The only possible benefit is it might drag more people to the game, but then we'd have to drag them from their D20 system to a real system. Trying to explain that there are no classes is something I don't feel like having to do again.

Drag from d20 to a "real" system? What the hell? The d20 system is just as valid a system as most others--I say most because of the diceless systems out there.

[Mirikon]

There are d20 System games without classes, Crash. Mutants & Masterminds, for instance, has a point buy system for chargen much like Shadowrun's, though with different values, of course. It is actually one of the easier superhero systems to pick up, especially when compared to things like Hero System, Heroes Unlimited, BESM, and others.

Personally, I find M&M 2nd to be the best of the M&M editions. Flexible enough that you are able to do any character you want, but firm enough that you aren't going to have someone be Goku, but with invulnerability.

[All4BigGuns]

There are d20 System games without classes, Crash. Mutants & Masterminds, for instance, has a point buy system for chargen much like Shadowrun's, though with different values, of course. It is actually one of the easier superhero systems to pick up, especially when compared to things like Hero System, Heroes Unlimited, BESM, and others.

Personally, I find M&M 2nd to be the best of the M&M editions. Flexible enough that you are able to do any character you want, but firm enough that you aren't going to have someone be Goku, but with invulnerability.

M&M is a decent system. The main problem I have with it is trying to get powers that I want with the powers presented. I generally need about four or five of that system's powers for what I think a power should be able to do.

[Mirikon]

Really? Especially with Ultimate Power, I've been able to make everything from Duke Nukem to time-travelling necromancers to Nacho Cheese Man.

[Crimsondude]

I'm pretty sure Iron Man armor is feasible in SR4.

At the very least, the arsenal SHIELD puts together to hunt the autonomous armor that thinks it's Tony in Hypervelocity is either already in SR4 or just hasn't been statted yet.

Anyway, D20 is the devil.