[Leevizer]

This is mostly me voicing my frustration at something I personally have a problem with, and trying to find if others have this same problem or if it's just me. And just to hope I'll find someone who can sympathise with my situation.

Let me preface this by saying that I have been a GM for a long time, on-and-off. The only times I have gotten to really roleplay instead of being the gamemaster was when I was about 5 and my father ran us games of Miekka ja Magia (Swords and Magic), a simple finnish RPG. After that, in junior high, I gamemastered for my friends. In high school, I gamemastered for my friends. In University, I gamemastered for my friends, and now I'm going to start gamemastering for yet another group of my friends. See a pattern here?

Anyhow, in most of these cases, the players have been alright with roleplaying, but haven't been very... Committed. They won't learn the rules by themselves, or read about the world, or the system, making it a burden for me to explain for them that why you actually need to buy a fake sin and why it's a bad idea to take an assault rifle into the bus. And frankly, I believe it's insulting when I spend 4-6 hours of my spare time coming up with a scenario and then 4-5 hours of my spare time to run it for my players to see some people on their smartphones or such and then forcing me to re-explain the situation to them because they weren't listening.

In any case, my actual point of this post is another issue I have a huge problem with, which is the creation of "unique snowflakes" and "special cases" for characters. The best part of Shadowrun is, in my opinion, the wealth of character creation options and all the possibilities. An ex-military street samurai using conventional weaponry? A japanese samurai using only a bow and a sword? A spellcasting british Troll? A human decker with a cyberdeck hidden within his thigh just for the heck of it? Or my personal favourite, an elf barbarian with a broadsword. All of these character concepts are viable, -can- fit the world of Shadowrun, and are something you could propably roleplay in both efficiently gameplay-wise and in a fun manner, roleplay-wise. Some of them may not be the most efficient ones, and some of them are going to be difficult to use unless you have prior experience on Shadowrun/Roleplaying in general.

So why is it that every time I start a new group, there are new players asking me if they can build who knows what as their first character with little to no roleplaying experience. Some can evolve into interesting concepts, but for the most part it puts stress on me to figure a way how to incorporate them. In my past two groups, I've had questions for the following characters from people with little to no experience on Shadowrun:

-Mutant/Shapeshifter: He wanted to build a mutant shapeshifter. Sure, this is one of the core concepts of Run Faster, but it's not something you should do as your first character, especially trying to combine shapeshifting with metagenetic qualities...

-A vampire: If you have knowledge on how Shadowrun works, running as a vampire can be a very interesting challenge. And with the "what if I wear UV-reflective clothing" and so on to try and mitigate the drawbacks, I really didn't wish to give all these bonuses

-A pixie rigger: I'm... Not even sure if this is supposed to work or not? Can anyone give any feedback on this? Is this viable?

-A Street Samurai with a chainsaw arm: This we actually found a solution to in the form of modular cyberarms, after explaining to the player that a chainsaw arm is not going to be very socially/legally acceptable.

-A troll shaman with a cyberjaw and Charisma 5: I'm digging the cyberjaw idea as the player had a pretty solid explanation for it, it doesn't cripple him completely (he'll still have Magic 5 and the Junkyard Jaw from Chrome Flesh is actually a pretty good melee weapon. The problem I have with this is the "huge illegal metal plate" covering half of his face and the fact that he wants to go with a charisma-based Shaman character, and I've no idea how well that will portray into roleplaying.

-A blood/Toxic shaman: So basically, everyone who knows you're one of these will try to kill you or contact the authorities so they can kill you. And why would you want to be one of these anyway!? There aren't really any benefits to it other than being a crazy psycho, which you can be anyway.

-"Can my troll have two extra cyberarms"?: Well, propably, yes, I guess I can find a reply to that in chrome flesh/run faster, but really, other than the ability to build the Troll of Doom (Two riot shields and two spears melee physadept), I don't see any reason why anyone would do such a thing? He explained that he wants to build a mechanic/augmentation addict. Then again, the player also added hearing augmentation to himself and when I asked why, the answer was "I don't know what it does, but it was cheap, so I took it."

-A "spy"/"Double agent"/"Bad guy": I really have a problem with you if your core idea is to be the enemy of the rest of the group. While it -can- be very interesting and I've read of roleplayers that have pulled this off well and made a very interesting story, I just... I can't pull it off, I don't want to pull it off, and I don't want the player to be upset when, inevinetably, the rest of the group will actually realize that he's being a "bad guy" and having the Street Samurai tear his head off.

So am I just being a stick in the mud and trying to kill creativity, wanting players to have an "effective" build for themselves or is this an issue with new players in general? What is it that makes someone read the rulebook and decide "hey, I know everyone uses pistols and rifles for shooting, so I'm going to buy a crossbow just to be different" or say "hey, cool, a combat Chainsaw, I'll center my character around using that." and then I just feel bad for telling them why it might be a bad idea because then I feel I'm evil, killing creativity and forcing my will on the players.

AND WHILE I'M RANTING, I might just as well say that I have a problem with new players using Chummer. I mean sure, it's convenient and easy, but I would suggest building your first few characters by yourself, either on paper or by using word/excel/whatever to help. This gives you a solid understanding on how character creation works, forces you to read through the books, look at rules such as "oh, what does this skill do?" or "so this gun has AP -2 and this one has AP-3, I wonder what AP does..." and generally helps them to be prepared. Also, as Chummer isn't perfect (especially if you misunderstand a rule or input something wrong), it can be confusing for new players when "Chummer isn't working". Granted, they'd still make the mistake and build their character wrong, but I still think they should fix it by hand so they -learn- how it works.

TL;DR: What your character is and has done is not the interesting part. What your character -does- is the interesting part. if you're new to Shadowrun, pick a solid core concept (Street Samurai, Mage, Face etc.) of the core book species (Human to Troll) and roll with that for your first character. Please.

Sorry for the rant, but I just needed to put this somewhere.

[Jack_Spade]

I know the frustration, but I'd advice you not to reject those ideas of hand.

The solution is to allow it with the following stipulations: They have to research the character and build it on their own with a complete character sheet, all special rules (especially from weaknesses) and dice pools ready (so you as GM don't have to look them up) and a convincing backstory of at least one page.

A lot of those special snow flake players will start to rethink their idea once they see how much work this makes.

Those who do make the effort have earned the right to play such a specialized character.

Oh and yes: Pixie Rigger is viable - provided they buy off the uneducated quality.

The charisma troll is... possible. He'll just have to learn physical mask and get his licences in order.

The vampire is easy - shoot on sight.

[Lorebane24]

It might be my personal style, but I tend to reject special snowflake races out of hand as well because they feel like an enormous roleplaying crutch to me.  For example, which sounds more interesting?

Toxic Shaman:  His forest got destroy and now he's angry about it and wants to make the corps suffer!  And that would really be pushing the creative envelope for most proposed toxic shaman I've had float my way.

Street Samurai:  He is defined by his "dry addict" and "criminal SIN" qualities.  He used to be a chief enforcer for a local drug gang, and even though he sported some light cyber, his primary edge was kamikaze.  While fleeing from the cops on a job gone bad, he took another hit too early and crashed from the overdose, leading to his capture.  Now he's out, and he thinks of drugs as a liability.  He's been training up in the joint, he called in a few old favors to get some new chrome to make up for the fact that he's not using anymore, and he's ready to step into the shadows.

This is one of six pregenerated characters I'm working on with a complete, if basic, backstory that I can hand to players who want to try something else or are just coming into the game to serve as an example of the sort of die pools I aim for at my table, and of the possibilities in building characters in the setting.


As far as your other issue, I think it's important to recognize that for you, for me, for most people posting on these boards, this is a hobby.  We invest in it, we enjoy spending time with it.  For a huge number of people who are coming into it, who have no prior experience with RPGs, it is just another game, and that's okay.  They do it because it's fun for a few hours a week and they get to hang out with their friends while they do it.  Sometimes they start digging a bit deeper, sometimes they don't.  I do think it's important, though, to understand why each player is at your table, and what they're looking to get out of the night.  You can adapt to that, and problems should really only come up when people are there for radically different reasons.

[Medicineman]

I think (from what I read) that your Players would rather play Mutants and Masterminds (or GURPS Supers  )
They're (so it seems) more in rthe Mood for a ...Bretzel& Beer Funround with over the Top Chars
and not so much in a serious campaign

Maybe you should watch some Movies* before creating Chars and Playing SR ?!
Hopefully this'll get them in the right mood.
And maybe you should tell them that even though the SR Universe is full of strange beings, they as Novice Players should start with rather Basic Chars and that you will allow more complex Chars once they know more about the World in general and what It means
to be a Vampire or Pixie Rigger ingame

* Movies like the first Robocop, Johnny Mnemonic,both Judge Dredds and Equilibrium

Hokahey
Medicineman

[adzling]

I ban special snowflakes from our table.

They just ruin immersion and RP imho (how does the Centaur fit in the getaway car or blend into a crowd?).

[Reaver]

I feel your pain. I really do.... I've been gaming since my 2nd grade teacher suggested it as way to bring my math and reading skills up.... so about 35 years?

Some of these gripes you can use to your advantage. Like describing the setting. Here you can put your own spin on it.... is YOUR shadowrun Pink or Grey? Sades or mohawk?

For me, I like the trenchcoat and shades version of Shadowrun, so I take the time to describe it that way to them....
I've found that a really goid setting description can actually help you stear clear of some 'snowflake' builds. After all if you make a point stressing that the world is much tte same as it is now, only darker, more bleak, with SR's magical tropes thrown in. How racism and Corporate politics shape everything, including the underling tension and unrest, players generally stay away from shifter centaur techmancer street sams....

An other skill is knowing when to walk away. Some players are just not a fit for all tables. Spotting a problem player, before they become a problem player, is a good skill to master....

[Leevizer]

Reaver, my runs are usually along the lines of Black Mohawks or Pink Trenchcoats. There are issues, there's a lot of bad shit going on, but how the actual runs usually go is just... Kinda funny, really? There's a lot of OOC banter, some of which gets into IC as well and generally all around fun times.

My issue is usually with the mechanic standpoints. If the troll has a cybernetic jaw, how will he blend in? It's illegal, so what if he's spotted on the streets!? How can he ever attend meets?

But on the other hand, I really -do- like the idea, so I guess I'll just be a bit lenient on it? I mean, it's going to be a problem but not something that'll outright ruin everything for him.

Oh, and the Pixie Rigger wants to have cybernetic wings that are customizable but only have a cosmetic effect. Any idea on how to rule that, rules-wise? Cosmetic cyberware as per Chrome Flesh or just say "look, you can have butterfly, dragonfly, bat, bird or angelic wings. Pick one and keep the cybernetics off the table."

[Beta]

Sometimes with a new game I find I have to make that first crazy character, then throw it away.  Then I can make a more reasonable character, but at first the desire to explore the corners of the game world and game mechanics are too strong to resist.  It is possible that this is not something unique to me?

Not so sure, however, that you could get away with having everyone make characters, then tell them "OK, crumple those up and throw them away, and make something entirely new ...." :p

[Reaver]

Well, the simple answer for Trapjaw is :

"He doesn't"  kinda the price to pay for having a 5 pound metal jaw

Well, if the meets are in dive bars close to the barren areas.... Trapjaw isn't the strangest things a beat cop has seen. Then there is magic, like a mask spell.


"You can lead a horse to water. But you can't make it drink"

All you can really do is point out the obvious flaws that Trapjaw has in public.... if the player insists on it still, well, now its his problem. So whats his solution?

[FST_Gemstar]

If you're the GM, it's ok to set the parameters.

If you are playing with a lot of new players, it is ok to say that Shadowrun is already a really complicated ruleset and adding all of the supplement rules is really a lot to learn. Additionally, many of these supplemental rules are more for GMs to create NPCs and to better fill their worlds than for players. After we play our first campaign and get a handle on the rules and the world (and like it), we can play a campaign that can fold in those rules.

If this doesn't work, you can go through the roleplaying ramifications of choices:

Metasapients: They are just rare (some have worldwide populations of <100k and they are not in urban metroplexes) and going to stick out. They are statted oddly (like centaurs don't have distinctive style!?) Any time these metas show up in a public space they are going to be noticed. They can be a huge liability.

Infected: Similar to metasapients. It's tough to be a shadowrunner as is and it is quite a bit tougher to do so if you can't go outside during the day and almost everyone is afraid of you and you gross almost everyone out. Like metasapients, the overlap of Ven Diagram between Shadowrunners and Infected is pretty small. If a campaign goes on and they players and you (the GM) are ok with it, perhaps the situation could arise for a character to risk infection.

Blood/Toxic/Shadow/Insect Magic: These can be pretty definitely intended to be NPC only. If they want to play GMs assistant maybe they can take control of a character like this sometime, but also expect them to be killed/neutralized by the PCs and have to let them go.

Bad Guy: Characters don't have to be nice people, but if they want Shadowrun (as the game is called), or more grammatically run the shadows, they are going to have to put up with a lot of BS they don't like. No one is going to hire them if they are jerks, double-cross, and turn to ultimate evil. That takes them out of the game. Double-crossing/double-agent is like being a blood mage. It puts the character into NPC/enemy territory.


Chummer: I hear you on learning the rules not using chummer. However, I am for new players using chummer. Shadowrun is very time intensive in character generation and it is easy to make a lot of mistakes. You can follow character creation steps in chummer, and may help keep things straight for the player. Chummer really helps explore the rules and make calculations the help players make more informed decisions (instead of it's cheap so I got it). You have to have access to source material when using Chummer, and Chummer helps find all of the pages explaining different gear/qualities/etc. This is a way to get more familiar and comfortable with the rules (not knowing where to look is hard in these big books!). As a cyberpunk game, I personally like a more digitized shadowrun experience (PDF rules, chummer files, online play, etc.) and I hope in future editions of shadowrun will include more computer assisted play. Using chummer makes me feel more shadowrunner-y. Also, as a GM, you can set the paramaters of chummer rules. Tell players to build with chummer, but you are only going to check the core rule book, so all of the other stuff won't even come up in chummer.

Roles: Tell your players that Shadowrun is a team game of roles. One player can sometimes fill multiple roles, but if you can't fill one role well, no one has a reason to hire you. Make you can do one thing right before you expand too far out.

PS. Pixie Riggers are viable. 'ware is goofy, in the 2070s you can make a pixie sized control rig as easy as a troll sized one. Just go with it. or make a pixie adept pilot: http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=23147.msg427639#msg427639
 

[Novocrane]

It might be my personal style, but I tend to reject special snowflake races out of hand as well because they feel like an enormous roleplaying crutch to me.  For example, which sounds more interesting? [...]

Be fair, you only thought about one of those with as a genuine character, and that was the difference. Not the karma allocation.

[Lorebane24]

I suppose you have a point, though in my own experience, more often than not (though not always) radical "class"/race options are used by players as a substitute for a developed PC personality.

[Reaver]

I suppose you have a point, though in my own experience, more often than not (though not always) radical "class"/race options are used by players as a substitute for a developed PC personality.

I call it the "ME" factor.

some players, for whatever reason, seem to have a thought process that runs along this line:

"I need a character, but it has to be different from everyone else, yet still serve a valid position on a team. I can't screw around with my dicepools - they have to be MAX, and in select skills. I know I will change the race! Now what should I be? Most people play Elves and Orks, and humans... So I will be a Mutated Lemur! That way I am totally unique as no one else will be playing a Mutated Lemur! And, my Unique-ness shall be forever remembered, because it will be the focus of every NPC interaction! Cause after all I am just a six foot walking rat...."

Not that they will admit it mind you.....



And, in some games, these types of characters are fine. A buddy of mine runs solely a "Freaks and Geeks" game where all the players have wacky characters..... They never get much actual shadowrunning done, but they have fun regardless...

[All4BigGuns]

Sometimes some might push a bit too far in "wacky" character ideas, but it's not worth ranting over. If you don't want someone playing a Toxic or Blood mage just point out they're intended to be NPC only--not everything printed is available for characters after all.

For most of that other stuff though (discounting some of the silly over exaggerations present in some responses), if they're that much of a problem then I think it likely that one is taking the GAME far too seriously.


All that said, there is one case where I get irritated, and that is when someone refuses to play Human characters under the excuse "Well, I'm Human, so I don't want to play one."

[Beta]

Certainly not just a ShadowRun thing.  The strange adventurer parties were so common in Runequest that in the King of Dragon Pass computer game, one of the events is having a group of odd adventurers show up at your clan hall looking for some strange thing called an ‘inn.’  (your clan leaders pretty much unanimously agree that the best thing to do is kill them and loot their treasures).  http://kingofdragonpass.wikia.com/wiki/Adventurers