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[SR6] Hacking devices within PANs / Hosts -> one or two hacks?

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Xenon

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« Reply #30 on: <04-07-20/1305:16> »
Ok, 95% of the time what you want is Spoof Command, not Control Device.  If you want a maglock to open, that's Spoof Command... 
If you already have User Access then you have the option to not take the illegal Spoof Command action (opposed hits will always generate overwatch score on you!) to open up a maglock. You can also directly control it yourself with the legal Control Device action (which will not generate overwatch score on you!).

Redwulfe

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« Reply #31 on: <04-07-20/1317:37> »
Question so to mitigate your overwatch score when on a run that you want to do Team Overwatch on, you should gain user access to the host which will allow you to use control device on anything on that host like doors, cameras, maglocks and the like? Because control device is legal you would gain less of an increase to your overwatch score, correct?
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Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #32 on: <04-07-20/1322:23> »
Question so to mitigate your overwatch score when on a run that you want to do Team Overwatch on, you should gain user access to the host which will allow you to use control device on anything on that host like doors, cameras, maglocks and the like? Because control device is legal you would gain less of an increase to your overwatch score, correct?

That's a fair point. 

And yes, your access to the host extends to everything the host controls.  This is also true of runner PANs, as well.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Banshee

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« Reply #33 on: <04-07-20/1347:54> »
Question so to mitigate your overwatch score when on a run that you want to do Team Overwatch on, you should gain user access to the host which will allow you to use control device on anything on that host like doors, cameras, maglocks and the like? Because control device is legal you would gain less of an increase to your overwatch score, correct?

That's a fair point. 

And yes, your access to the host extends to everything the host controls.  This is also true of runner PANs, as well.

Also a factor is that just maintaining access regardless of what actions you are taking accumulates OS too. So it a matter how long vs how many actions that determines which method is better.
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Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #34 on: <04-07-20/1351:14> »
Question so to mitigate your overwatch score when on a run that you want to do Team Overwatch on, you should gain user access to the host which will allow you to use control device on anything on that host like doors, cameras, maglocks and the like? Because control device is legal you would gain less of an increase to your overwatch score, correct?

That's a fair point. 

And yes, your access to the host extends to everything the host controls.  This is also true of runner PANs, as well.

Also a factor is that just maintaining access regardless of what actions you are taking accumulates OS too. So it a matter how long vs how many actions that determines which method is better.

Backdoor Entry gives an exception to that, so most of the time that's what players will use.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Banshee

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« Reply #35 on: <04-07-20/1357:17> »
Question so to mitigate your overwatch score when on a run that you want to do Team Overwatch on, you should gain user access to the host which will allow you to use control device on anything on that host like doors, cameras, maglocks and the like? Because control device is legal you would gain less of an increase to your overwatch score, correct?

That's a fair point. 

And yes, your access to the host extends to everything the host controls.  This is also true of runner PANs, as well.

Also a factor is that just maintaining access regardless of what actions you are taking accumulates OS too. So it a matter how long vs how many actions that determines which method is better.

Backdoor Entry gives an exception to that, so most of the time that's what players will use.

Yeah but then you're trading time for that privilege... not always the best or available option
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Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #36 on: <04-07-20/1402:46> »
Well... it's "only" a minute to do the prerequisite probe.  Those extra minutes could matter if the site has an architecture of hosts rather than a single host in 5e style.  Of course, if you must progress through a series of nested hosts, then Brute Forcing your way through becomes exponentially worse in comparison as you have to take OS for each host you're maintaining access to/through.

But yes, if you don't HAVE minutes.. or if you want to rely on Attack linked actions rather than Sleaze (for some reason), Brute Force has those niche advantages.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Banshee

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« Reply #37 on: <04-07-20/1410:39> »
Well... it's "only" a minute to do the prerequisite probe.  Those extra minutes could matter if the site has an architecture of hosts rather than a single host in 5e style.  Of course, if you must progress through a series of nested hosts, then Brute Forcing your way through becomes exponentially worse in comparison as you have to take OS for each host you're maintaining access to/through.

But yes, if you don't HAVE minutes.. or if you want to rely on Attack linked actions rather than Sleaze (for some reason), Brute Force has those niche advantages.

Yes ... and I intentionally made the backdoor hack the most favorable option as long as the situation allows (though I think ONE  minute is too favorable.. I think I had it at o e hour originally but should be 10 or 15 minutes at a minimum) much like real world hacking taking the time to use the systems weaknesses against itself.
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Xenon

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« Reply #38 on: <04-07-20/1413:00> »
Question so to mitigate your overwatch score when on a run that you want to do Team Overwatch on, you should gain user access to the host which will allow you to use control device on anything on that host like doors, cameras, maglocks and the like? Because control device is legal you would gain less of an increase to your overwatch score, correct?
Yes! =)

If you do not have time to prep (and you do not have access on the network already) then you will probably often depend on illegal spoof commands just like SSDR wrote above (where each of them cause overwatch score on opposed hits) or, if you wish to control them directly yourself, brute force your way into the network with just a single major action (but this will count as "illegal User-access" which mean your overwatch score will automatically increase each round!).

If you have time to prep then you would instead spend a at least a minute or so to probe the network for vulnerabilities and then exploit it to gain entrance via a backdoor. Unlike brute forcing your way into the network, this will not count as having "illegal Admin-access" which mean your overwatch score will not automatically increase each round. Once inside you can run matrix overwatch by legally control each device with the control device action which will not increase overwatch score on opposed hits.


6E p. 180 Backdoor Entry
If the test is successful, you gain Admin access to the target, and it does not count as illegal Admin access (though taking illegal Matrix Actions will still increase your Overwatch Score).

6E p. 176 Overwatch Score and Convergence
Things that increase the Overwatch Score are as follows...
• Maintaining illegal access to anything on the Matrix: +1 OS/round for each host where you maintain illegal User-level access, +3 OS/round for each host where you maintain illegal Admin-level access.



Having said that, Spoof Command actions are only opposed by Data Processing while Control Device actions (if there is no skill associated with the device) are resisted by both Willpower and Firewall.

To quote Yoda; "The Dark Side is quicker, easier, more seductive... easily they flow, quick to join you in a fight. If once you start down the dark path forever will it dominate your destiny"




The two actions are also used when influencing drones, but both of them work different in this scenario;

Piloting a drone with your own piloting skill to perform stunts or sneak with a hostile drone or using your own engineering skill to fire its on-board mounted weapons will not be resisted at all as long as you maintain user access on the network the drone is connected to. You just take the piloting or engineering actions directly.

Spoofing a command to the on-board auto-pilot of a drone to have the drone using its own auto-softs and ratings, however, will be opposed by both the on-board pilot and the firewall of the network the drone is connected to.

Finstersang

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« Reply #39 on: <04-07-20/1421:22> »
On my phone so I may not go as deep in detail as needed so bear with me ...

actively defending just means it needs to be part of a network

Having a choice of what set of attributes you use works both ways ... as a player you will almost always want to use your persona because you will better off, but this also means that a spider working in a host doesn't need hot shot gear when they can just using the host attributes.

As general statement I can say I never intended to have such low slave limits in fact I wanted no limits at all. I also never wanted devices to be completely defenseless on their own. But not everything I wanted made it in to the final version ... including errata.

IF you wanted to house rule something that worked as I originally designed the new matrix system. Then add device rating to all commlink firewalls, ignore device limits, and allow all devices to have firewalls equal to their rating.

Thanks for the (still pretty conclusive) answer. Kinda begs the question: Is the wonkyness of the current version intended or just yet again due to some, ehem.... misfortunes in the editing/errata process? (Don´t worry, you don´t have to answer that  ::))

TBH, while I like Banshees original vision, I don´t really mind the current lower defense dice pools (unless they go down to zero, that is...). After the last 2 Editions, I like the fact that hackers can now get stuff done even with mediocre dicepools if they find vulnerable targets. It also emphasizes the defensive role of Deckers (and Riggers!) in a team. And the importance of an active security Spider in a host as well!

But with the added device limit and the low F/D of a standalone commlink PAN, it starts to become a bit too hard to believe. Just take a standard Smartgun Setup: That´s already two devices that you will definitely want to secure (at least a little bit): The Smartgun and the Smartlink Reciever*. With a mid-level commlink, that means your PAN is already full, which means that RAW, any other wireless device you use has a defense pool of Zero. Are multi-commlink Daisychains** really supposed to be a norm?

*And that´s already under the assumption that each Gun Accessory / Vision Mod etc. doesn´t count as a seperate device!

**if they are possible to begin with, everyone is just kinda going with that assumption...
« Last Edit: <04-07-20/1425:13> by Finstersang »
"Firing Line adds a ton of Perks that modify Attack and Defense ratings"

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Redwulfe

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« Reply #40 on: <04-07-20/1426:51> »
Having said that, Spoof Command actions are only opposed by Data Processing while Control Device actions (if there is no skill associated with the device) are resisted by both Willpower and Firewall.

so spoof is not Data Processing or pilot ....... and Firewall? it is Data Processing ...... or Pilot and Firewall?

For example I am spoofing a Trans Avalon with D of 3 and F of 1 I would be going against a 3 not a 4?
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Banshee

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« Reply #41 on: <04-07-20/1428:32> »
[quote author=Xenon link=topic=31179.msg536548#msg536548

Piloting a drone with your own piloting skill to perform stunts or sneak with a hostile drone or using your own engineering skill to fire its on-board mounted weapons will not be resisted at all as long as you maintain user access on the network the drone is connected to. You just take the piloting or engineering actions directly.

[/quote]

No, only OWNERS can do that ... hacked access is NEVER owner access so if you had to hack it to use it then Control Device is what you should be using. I know that is a point that is not clealry defined, but the whole point of Control Device is control devices you don't own, Owners don't need to use it at all but hackers do.

Edit: this is why it talks about legitimate access levels in the control device description
« Last Edit: <04-07-20/1441:34> by Banshee »
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Banshee

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« Reply #42 on: <04-07-20/1439:09> »
Having said that, Spoof Command actions are only opposed by Data Processing while Control Device actions (if there is no skill associated with the device) are resisted by both Willpower and Firewall.

so spoof is not Data Processing or pilot ....... and Firewall? it is Data Processing ...... or Pilot and Firewall?

For example I am spoofing a Trans Avalon with D of 3 and F of 1 I would be going against a 3 not a 4?

Spoof is (DP or Pilot)+Firewall ... Firewall is always a factor
« Last Edit: <04-07-20/1442:47> by Banshee »
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Finstersang

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« Reply #43 on: <04-07-20/1709:56> »
Little side question about Spoof Command:

I was always under the impression that to successfully spoof a command from a credible source, the hacker also has to know that source. Is this correct?

For context: In 5th Edition, the hacker even needed to hack that "credible source" for a Mark - thankfully, that extra delay is now gone. But it would still make sense if the hacker first have to find (or at least successfully guess) a user with the right credentials. Of course, in most cases, that user should be obvious enough for the hacker to not need waste extra actions - f.i., if is a Smartgun, the bloke holding it very likely to be its accepted user. However, zhat may be not so clear if the "credible source" is hiding in the Matrix or if there is no obvious source around the device in question.

(For additional clarity: I´m assuming that a"credible source" does not automatically have to be part of the PAN as well, and sometimes not even a persona. F.i., a Trideo Projector in a corporate conference room - which might be slaved to the local WAN - could also accept orders from a remote control/"presenter")
« Last Edit: <04-07-20/1711:43> by Finstersang »
"Firing Line adds a ton of Perks that modify Attack and Defense ratings"

"Cool, does this mean that the whole AR/DR comparison has a bigger impact now?"

"Haha No :D"

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #44 on: <04-07-20/1715:33> »
I would say that's either irrelevant or incorrect.

It's normally not an issue.. the spoofed command appears to come from the host or the PAN, as appropriate.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.