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[6th] Spirits and normal weapons

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shadowtail00

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« on: <04-12-20/1459:03> »
So it says that they can get hurt with normal weapons if materialized but then in the materialize skill it says they don't take damage from normal weapons.

Xenon

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« Reply #1 on: <04-12-20/1503:51> »
They do take damage from normal weapons.

They are just highly resistant to them (because of historical reasons the power is named Immunity to Normal weapons while Resistant to normal weapons would be more appropriate)


edit. let me expand on that since you need to loop through 3 locations in the book before you find the answer. Been this way for many editions now :/


The Materialize power state:
Additionally, they gain Immunity to Normal Weapons while materialized.


The Immunity power state:
A critter with Immunity has an enhanced resistance to a certain type of attack or affliction. Effectively, the critter has a Hardened Armor with a rating equal to its Essence against that particular kind of damage (see Hardened Armor, above).
...
Immunity to Normal Weapons: This applies to all attacks that are not magical in nature; weapon foci, spells, and adept or critter powers function normally. If the critter also has the Allergy or Vulnerability weakness, then the Immunity does not apply against non-magical attacks made using the allergen or vulnerability.


And finally the Hardened Armor power state:
This power provides its rating as an addition to Defense Rating. It also provides its rating as automatic hits on the Damage Resistance test. Finally, if the modified Damage Value of an attack is less than the Hardened Armor rating, the attack does no damage.
« Last Edit: <04-12-20/1508:07> by Xenon »

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #2 on: <04-12-20/1510:01> »
There's a narrative sense of some language, and a crunchy rules mechanic sense.  Sometimes it's hard to tell which is which.

Narratively, strong spirits are effectively immune to mundane weapons.  But in a rules sense: no they're not TECHNICALLY immune.

The way it all comes together is a little confusing.

Materialized spirits are "narratively" immune. See the Materialization critter power on pg. 225.  Among other things, it says that critters gain the Immunity to Normal Weapons critter power while materialized.

That means reference page 224, where Immunity is covered. Immunity means you have Hardened Armor versus what you are immune to, with a rating equal to essence.  The Immunity critter power continues on to page 225 where Immunity to Normal Weapons gets some special rules. But you now also need to look at Hardened Armor, on pg. 224.  This critter power makes DVs equal or less than the rating of the power deal no damage, and gives auto-hits on the soak test on DVs higher than the rating.

In total, this means:

While Materialized, spirits ignore damage from mundane weapons when the DV is equal or less than their rating (and essence = force, usually).  This means high force spirits are very, very hard to hurt.  But not technically impossible.

EDIT: Damn, you're quick Xenon.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #3 on: <04-12-20/1536:12> »
As an asides: My personal suspicion is that Hardened Armor was partially missed in the damage rebalance, and that its autosoak should be halved for game balance. I strongly recommend that tweak to be discussed with any GM you're dealing with (or yourself/players if you're GMing).
How am I not part of the forum?? O_O I am both active and angry!

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #4 on: <04-12-20/1540:37> »
As an asides: My personal suspicion is that Hardened Armor was partially missed in the damage rebalance, and that its autosoak should be halved for game balance. I strongly recommend that tweak to be discussed with any GM you're dealing with (or yourself/players if you're GMing).

Well, it was 2x essence in 5e.  It WAS halved for 6we.... but I agree with you.  It's still "too" strong even at 1x essence on high-force spirits.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Xenon

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« Reply #5 on: <04-12-20/1544:00> »
...unless the intent for this edition was that high level spirits should actually be "immune" to normal weapons, and not just "highly resistant" ;-)

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #6 on: <04-12-20/1552:32> »
My preferred fix is to apply a Vulnerability to every spirit type.  Give a reasonable way to just flatly turn off ItNW.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #7 on: <04-12-20/1627:38> »
As an asides: My personal suspicion is that Hardened Armor was partially missed in the damage rebalance, and that its autosoak should be halved for game balance. I strongly recommend that tweak to be discussed with any GM you're dealing with (or yourself/players if you're GMing).

Well, it was 2x essence in 5e.  It WAS halved for 6we.... but I agree with you.  It's still "too" strong even at 1x essence on high-force spirits.
The Armor Rating was 2xEss, yes. But the Autohits went from R/2 to R, aka 2xEss/2=Ess to plain Ess, so the same. The only difference is that you could reduce it with AP in SR5, which makes the SR6 version stronger even if you properly half the autohits. So yeah, I think they did touch on 'we're lowering armor values' but didn't touch on 'we're reducing damage levels'.
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shadowtail00

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« Reply #8 on: <04-12-20/1720:49> »
Damn those replies were quick! Thank you, all of you! New to Shadowrun so wrapping my head around everything recently!
Another, likely dumb question, how many spirits can you have at once? I'm guessing and think it's one but I'm not sure.
Also, on the halved thing, I just spoke to my DM (All of us are new) and we've said how if it becomes a big problem we're both find with halving it.

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #9 on: <04-12-20/1727:56> »
You're welcome!

And you can have any number of spirits.  the limit is that their combined force cannot exceed your Magic x 3.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Xenon

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« Reply #10 on: <04-12-20/1729:21> »
how many spirits can you have at once?
It depend on your magic rating and the force of your spirits (you can have several weaker, one or a few stronger or a combination).

6E p. 147 Summoning
You cannot have active spirits whose combined Force is greater than (summoner’s Magic x 3) at any one time.

Edit: This time you were quicker than me SSDR ;)

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #11 on: <04-12-20/1758:20> »
Damn those replies were quick! Thank you, all of you! New to Shadowrun so wrapping my head around everything recently!
Another, likely dumb question, how many spirits can you have at once? I'm guessing and think it's one but I'm not sure.
Also, on the halved thing, I just spoke to my DM (All of us are new) and we've said how if it becomes a big problem we're both find with halving it.
This is where I miss the thumbs-up emoji.

As for Spirits: What they said. Just remember that each Spirit lasts at most 1 sunset+sunrise (or vice versa, aka 2 dusk/dawns since its summon), and that they're NPCs so the GM can either let you do their tactics, or take them over if both parties agree. (Also, Materializing takes a Major Action, so enemies will get a chance to respond.)
How am I not part of the forum?? O_O I am both active and angry!

shadowtail00

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« Reply #12 on: <04-12-20/1839:06> »
Right! Last question! I know I'm a pain but ahhh!
Their condition monitor, they only have one it says and it's based on their will? So is it the standard 9 plus one for every 3 will or?

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #13 on: <04-12-20/1847:22> »
Yeah, nameless mooks in SR don't have separate Physical and Stun CMs.  (I went the entirety of 5e's run without realizing that was ALSO true in 5e!)

Spirits specifically use Willpower to compute their CMs... usually NPCs take the better between Body and Willpower.    It's 8+(1/2 Will, rounded up), which isn't exactly the same thing as what you cited.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.