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Astral fighting

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bdyer

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« on: <08-18-15/0932:09> »
To make this simple I have 3 questions:

What action is it to attack with astral combat?  I couldn't find where it's listed in the combat, skills, or magic section.  Is it simple with the one attack limitation or complex?

So it seems to me in SR. 5 astral combat is a much better way to defeat spirits while Astrally projecting for a shaman.  In fact for the character I'm looking at I will have 11+net hits dv.  With only willpower to soak on spirits this is close to an insta gib to any spirit up to force 6.  Higher force becomes a problem hitting.

The 2nd question: if astral combat is a simple action.  If I drop say a force 2 mana static (or higher) and charge in and attack, how does sustaining the spell work as my magic decreases? Doed the force of the sustained spell decrease since my magic decreased or as long as I have enough magic to sustain it it will keep running?

Finally on mana static again.  If cast on the astral on the area of an enemy mage(that isn't Astrally perceiving) would it affect their magic?  I get not being able to specifically target them.  However this is targeting the astral environment that you are in which affect the mage?  ( yes I get them being able to walk out of it on their turn but sustained spells could get dumped)

Beta

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« Reply #1 on: <08-18-15/1054:43> »
I'm not near my rule books, but I'm pretty sure I saw it referenced as a complex action.  But possibly I just assumed that since melee combat was complex, astral combat would be too?

And out of curiosity, what are you doing to get a DV that high?

In my game the shaman has also found that astral combat is often the way to go, but is more inclined to send his spirit (in astral form) after opposing spirits.  The opposing spirit will be at an initiative disadvantage unless it also goes astral, which can buy time for the team to do whatever they need to do.  He's tended to avoid astral combat after discovering how deadly it is due to lack of armor.

bdyer

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« Reply #2 on: <08-18-15/1119:27> »
I originally thought the same way that astral was a complex action because melee is as well.  But I can't find anyplace that writes it out.  Also thinking that since astral happens at the speed of thought might make it simple.

Elf 8 charisma with a force 3 katana weapon focus gives a dv of 8+3.  Dice pool could reach into the 20's if the character was built for it.  On the defense side a spirit has forcex2 attack for force+ hits damage with a character built for astral is a dice pool defense of 10 with an interrupt action to block/parry with astral combat to add another 11 dice too defense.

I'm also going to do spirits as well just trying to clarify

For some background, in our shadowrun game the gm likes to throw spirits at us.  Even street gang fights have had force 3-4 spirits join in.  He is also not shy of using possesion spirits.  Bigger fights we have seen up to force 8 spirits.  So the character I'm looking at will have the magical downtime utility but during combat will be mainly anti spirit support and dropping spirits down to help with anything in the material world.

As a side question.  If you summon a spirit while projecting does the spirit appear at your unconscious body or next to you in the astral?  We currently have been going with that it appears next to your physical body.

Whiskeyjack

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« Reply #3 on: <08-18-15/1147:55> »
So it seems to me in SR. 5 astral combat is a much better way to defeat spirits while Astrally projecting for a shaman.  In fact for the character I'm looking at I will have 11+net hits dv.  With only willpower to soak on spirits this is close to an insta gib to any spirit up to force 6.  Higher force becomes a problem hitting.
It's also a really niche skill and Stunbolt + relevant focus is almost strictly better in terms of what you get vs opportunity cost.

I originally thought the same way that astral was a complex action because melee is as well.  But I can't find anyplace that writes it out.
 
I am pretty sure it's Complex.

Also thinking that since astral happens at the speed of thought might make it simple.
This doesn't bear out for matrix actions so I don't know why it would for astral.


Elf 8 charisma with a force 3 katana weapon focus gives a dv of 8+3.  Dice pool could reach into the 20's if the character was built for it.  On the defense side a spirit has forcex2 attack for force+ hits damage with a character built for astral is a dice pool defense of 10 with an interrupt action to block/parry with astral combat to add another 11 dice too defense.
How good are you at using that sword in meatspace? If the answer is "not very," you're almost certainly wasting a lot of resources.

  If you summon a spirit while projecting does the spirit appear at your unconscious body or next to you in the astral?  We currently have been going with that it appears next to your physical body.
I'd say by your spirit since that's the actual part of you summoning. It doesn't matter much though given the prodigious speed of astral travel.
Playability > verisimilitude.

bdyer

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« Reply #4 on: <08-18-15/1215:47> »
I see astral combat as vastly superior to stunbolt in sr5.  I won't do all the math but averages Would be

Stunbolt: dp 6(skill) + 6(magic) + 2 (spec or mentor) + (5 power focus) = aprox 6 hits
Spirits resist with will(force)

So on a force 6 spirit you will deal on average 4 damage.  This can be increased using 7 karma (witness my hate) to 6
So on average taking 3 is rounds to kill a force 6 (quite common in my game) or 2 with witness my hate
Assuming a force 5 and witness my hate that means the mage has to soak 4 drain everytime they do this.  They also have to clean up astral signatures

Astral combat  dp is 6(skill) + 5( willpower) + 2(spec) + 3(my weapon foci) + 1 reach = 17
Spirit defends with force x2 (12 dice on force 6)
Damage would on average be 12 resisted with will
The Mage doesn't have to soak anything and doesn't leave a signature
So anything force 5 of below could be one shot will higher might take 2 hits. 


they are quite comparable .  I went the astral combat as we are using the life module system and dropping 70 karma for the power focus wasn't worth it.  The weapon focus is only 20 karma. 

No The character will not be good with the sword in meat.  However, I don't plan on the character himself ever dealing damage in the meat directly unless of course I get ambushed alone, in a high background count, without a vehicle, and without a pistol

« Last Edit: <08-18-15/1227:12> by bdyer »

sn0mm1s

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« Reply #5 on: <08-18-15/1250:23> »
Astral Combat is OK for those with Astral Projection, though I think it is too much of a niche skill to dump karma into it.

It is a waste (against any intelligent spirit or projecting mage) for anyone else. People seem to forget that spirits aren't bound by gravity on either plane and neither is a projecting mage. There isn't much point to astral combat if you can't close the distance and you can be attacked at range.

Raven2049

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« Reply #6 on: <08-19-15/0843:58> »
Nobody has brought up this point yet but the mana static spell is duration permanent. And I'm not 100 percent sure how duration permanent works considering the fact that you have to sustain the spell for a duration before it actually becomes permanent.

My question on that situation becomes does the spell have full effect the second you cast it? And you have to sustain it well taking the die pool penalty until it becomes permanent? Or does it slowly ramp up until it reaches full potency at the end of the permanency sustainment all the while sustaining the spell and taking the die pool penalty as normal.

 In talking to a nother GM we could not come to a consensus on this topic. Both of us agreed that it is unclear, as with heal spells you don't usually do them in the middle of combat and they also have duration permanent. So waiting X amount of combat aaction/passes/turns however the rules state is not a big deal. But the way I kind of envision healing as in the heal spell the wounds are slowly closing over time until the spell is made permanent as in the end of the sustainment. The wounds have not completely healed so that would be akin to slowly ramping up over time.

On my phone at the moment so I can't look up the rules. Also my spelling and other things might be a little bad.

bdyer

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« Reply #7 on: <08-19-15/1021:59> »
Nobody has brought up this point yet but the mana static spell is duration permanent. And I'm not 100 percent sure how duration permanent works considering the fact that you have to sustain the spell for a duration before it actually becomes permanent.

My question on that situation becomes does the spell have full effect the second you cast it? And you have to sustain it well taking the die pool penalty until it becomes permanent? Or does it slowly ramp up until it reaches full potency at the end of the permanency sustainment all the while sustaining the spell and taking the die pool penalty as normal.

 In talking to a nother GM we could not come to a consensus on this topic. Both of us agreed that it is unclear, as with heal spells you don't usually do them in the middle of combat and they also have duration permanent. So waiting X amount of combat aaction/passes/turns however the rules state is not a big deal. But the way I kind of envision healing as in the heal spell the wounds are slowly closing over time until the spell is made permanent as in the end of the sustainment. The wounds have not completely healed so that would be akin to slowly ramping up over time.

On my phone at the moment so I can't look up the rules. Also my spelling and other things might be a little bad.

In the original 4th mana static full background count was instant.  After you sustained it for the required amount of it it became permanent.  They errataed the spell later so that it slowly ramps up.

In 5e they brought back the original wording of the spell.  This would lead me to the conclusion that it's instant.  Since they already knew the instant issues it caused in 4e. 

I still would like to know if mana static (it is a M spell) cast on the astral would affect a mage on the physical.  Since you arnt targeting them and a background count should affect physical and astral.

Sendaz

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« Reply #8 on: <08-19-15/1024:49> »
[In the original 4th mana static full background count was instant.  After you sustained it for the required amount of it it became permanent.  They errataed the spell later so that it slowly ramps up.

In 5e they brought back the original wording of the spell.  This would lead me to the conclusion that it's instant.  Since they already knew the instant issues it caused in 4e. 

Or it could be a case they cut and pasted in material from 4th without double checking, so this would be a good one for submission to errata request.
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Overbyte

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« Reply #9 on: <08-19-15/1202:13> »
It's also a really niche skill and Stunbolt + relevant focus is almost strictly better in terms of what you get vs opportunity cost.

This is sorta true, but I don't really agree.
A weapon focus will do way more damage than Stunbolt, and against mages in astral space it will probably be a near instant kill.
However a Stunbolt does only costs 5 karma, and bonding a weapon focus and getting skill is a bunch o Karma.
So it's a trade-off.
Nothing is foolproof. Fools are so ingenious.

Beta

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« Reply #10 on: <08-19-15/1231:22> »
Some builds are more specialized than others, for sure, but being an astral badass has its advantages.

- Possibly the best way to deal with bound spirits (hard to banish, but not usually too huge in size)
- Make other mages scared as heck to even astrally perceive, which can be a pretty big thing
- Makes you not so scared to astrally perceive/project, when there could be spirits around

bdyer

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« Reply #11 on: <08-20-15/2320:31> »
Any ideas on my original questions?

Overbyte

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« Reply #12 on: <08-22-15/0130:54> »
"Astral combat is resolved in the same way as physical combat... Astrally projecting characters use their mental attributes in place of physical ones"  SR5 p. 315

It seems pretty clear that Astral Combat is just like Melee Combat. You use either Unarmed Astral Combat or Astral Combat with a weapon. Since melee combat is a Complex Action, so is Astral Combat.
Nothing is foolproof. Fools are so ingenious.

bdyer

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« Reply #13 on: <08-24-15/0939:29> »
What about mana static cast on the astral?  Would it affect people trying to use magic on the physical?

Lucean

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« Reply #14 on: <08-25-15/0501:43> »
Opportunity cost is as follows:
- additional skill to raise
- weapon focus to buy and to bind
- you're openly running around armed, because the focus is also active on the astral

Damagewise it might work out for you, but you will draw attention.
I never had room to fit in another skill, not even talking about the karma cost for bonding a weapon focus, but since I never managed to build a mage I was satisfied with that might not count for much.

Spells don't leave their respective plane of existance. So mana static cast on the astral should not affect a mage that is not astrally perceiving.