Shadowrun

Shadowrun General => Gear => Topic started by: Remnar on <10-06-19/2045:08>

Title: 6th - Shotguns
Post by: Remnar on <10-06-19/2045:08>
Sorry if this has been hashed out but I didn't see anything recent and just got the rules.

So... What's the point of shotguns in 6th Ed?

Take my favorite since, what Street Sam Catalogue?, The CMDT.  It seems to be objectively worse than the basic AK in ... everything except price (in a relatively trivial amount at CharGen) with slugs and dubiously better(?) with flechette, depending on if +1 AR is worth giving up 2 DV.

Also, why does the Viper Silvergun get a +1 DV for it's flechette when everything else gets -1 DV for using that ammo, seems backwards.

Then again, nonsense and piles of editing errors are expected from CGL but I'm wondering if I missed something.  Didn't see any shotgun rules in combat or anything for choke and spread or whatnot.
Title: Re: 6th - Shotguns
Post by: topcat on <10-06-19/2202:01>
No reason to ever use a shotgun in SR6 unless you're bad at math or want one for RP purposes.
Title: Re: 6th - Shotguns
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on <10-06-19/2208:40>
Combat book is coming soon.  It'll probably have some love for shotguns, I'd imagine.

No reason to ever use a shotgun in SR6 unless you're bad at math or want one for RP purposes.

Eh, I'd say "no reason" is an exaggeration:  They hit harder than SMGs, and have better Close ARs than rifles.
Title: Re: 6th - Shotguns
Post by: ZeroSum on <10-06-19/2226:06>
Not a whole lot of need for shotguns in the current implementation, I agree.

If there were any special rules for shot vs slugs, especially shot with variable chole, or anything to distinguish them from rifles they might be worth considering.

They hit harder than SMGs, and have better Close ARs than rifles.
They do hit harder than SMGs (except the P93), but are harder to conceal (except for the short-barrel T-250). SMGs also have superior close Attack Ratings over shotguns, and rifles are barely behind.

The the CMDT, like the OP mentioned. It's DV of 4P is greater than most SMGs and equal to most rifles, but the AK-97 and FN-HAR both do 5P. Additionally, it's AR is 4/11/7 (with Laser Sight included); comparatively, most rifles are in the same range but have far greater range and therefore versatility, as well as Full Auto.

I just don't see any reason to bring a shotgun to a gunfight in the current rules. Let's hope the combat book changes that.
Title: Re: 6th - Shotguns
Post by: Remnar on <10-06-19/2242:29>
Thanks all, I see I didn't miss anything.

Disappointing.
Title: Re: 6th - Shotguns
Post by: topcat on <10-07-19/0953:57>
They do hit harder than SMGs (except the P93), but are harder to conceal (except for the short-barrel T-250). SMGs also have superior close Attack Ratings over shotguns, and rifles are barely behind.

Yep, SMGs have better fire modes, attack ratings, ammo capacities, and concealability.  The FN 93 has comparable DV (and is really the only SMG to buy).
Title: Re: 6th - Shotguns
Post by: Michael Chandra on <10-07-19/1021:15>
Shotguns also have an underbarrel mount, which SMGs lack. That means you can use a bipod/tripod, or combine a laser sight / external smartgun with e.g. a scope. If you want to add both a scope and an external smartgun, you can't do that with the Praetor. You can do that with a Roomsweeper.

That said, there's indeed a lot of people that would like some extra rules for Flechette shotgun spreads. No idea if the combat book will have anything, we'll see in time. If not, I expect houserules to run galore. But I can understand the choice to leave such firing modes out of CRB.
Title: Re: 6th - Shotguns
Post by: ZeroSum on <10-07-19/1143:23>
That said, there's indeed a lot of people that would like some extra rules for Flechette shotgun spreads. No idea if the combat book will have anything, we'll see in time. If not, I expect houserules to run galore. But I can understand the choice to leave such firing modes out of CRB.
I have to disagree with you there, considering Spray weapons made it in. I think the only ability that uses this method of attack is Noxious Breath, and personally, I think making shotguns more interesting is a higher priority than one very specific mode of attack used by some spirits.

Clearly, the writers disagree with me, though, so it's a bit moot.

Anyway, considering Spray weapons made it in, I don't think alternate fire or something (anything) to make shotguns stand out would have been too much to ask for.
Title: Re: 6th - Shotguns
Post by: Finstersang on <10-07-19/1209:45>
That said, there's indeed a lot of people that would like some extra rules for Flechette shotgun spreads. No idea if the combat book will have anything, we'll see in time. If not, I expect houserules to run galore. But I can understand the choice to leave such firing modes out of CRB.
I have to disagree with you there, considering Spray weapons made it in. I think the only ability that uses this method of attack is Noxious Breath, and personally, I think making shotguns more interesting is a higher priority than one very specific mode of attack used by some spirits.

Clearly, the writers disagree with me, though, so it's a bit moot.

Anyway, considering Spray weapons made it in, I don't think alternate fire or something (anything) to make shotguns stand out would have been too much to ask for.

There are no stats for any spray weapons in the Core rules, though. There are only the rules on how to handle them  ::)

Let´s face it, the fact that

all point into one direction: It´s an editing Fuckup. Or alternatively, some untestested, last-minute "balancing change", that´s been force-implemented by the secret Games Workshop mole. IMO, this shouldn´t just be an issue for the Combat Supplement; it should be an considered an Errata item  :P

Besides that, I think there is still a lot of creative room for future improvements of Shotguns as a weapon category that would fit nicely in a Combat Supplement. One obvious benefit of RL Shotguns ist that you have a huge variety of crazy stuff you can put in these, from cheap hand-cooked "Blunderbuss" Shots to Specialized Slugs or even Shots of Flaming Magnesium (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon%27s_breath_(ammunition)). Combined with the streamlined status effects, the devs theoretically should have a field day with this.

Theoretically  ::)
Title: Re: 6th - Shotguns
Post by: ZeroSum on <10-07-19/1215:49>
There are no stats for any spray weapons in the Core rules, though. There are only the rules on how to handle them  ::)
Noxious Breath power, page 226:
Quote
This is treated as a Spray Ranged Attack (p. 117) using the critter’s Agility + Magic, with an Attack Rating of Near (Magic x 2), Close (Magic), Medium —, Far —, Extreme —.

Agreed with everything else you said.
Title: Re: 6th - Shotguns
Post by: Remnar on <10-07-19/1702:25>
Ok, since I have a thread open and am pretty sure the answer is "editing fail" I'll just toss a question on top of this thread here.

Trying to put together a combat decker and I see a number of references to agents, including in the index (under software)

But ... No agents anywhere else.  Rules, cost, etc.

Did I miss it?  Or did they forget to include them in the book, and neglected to clean up the matrix section and index? 

Thanks!
Title: Re: 6th - Shotguns
Post by: ZeroSum on <10-07-19/1706:25>
You didn't miss it, but it was dealt with in errata:
p. 271, Software
Remove the paragraph about Agents.

p. 272, Software table
Remove the entry for agents; change hacking program Avail to 4(I)

Of course, I can't remember the link to said errata. Maybe just google Shadowrun August Errata?
Title: Re: 6th - Shotguns
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on <10-07-19/1719:16>
The hotfix errata is available here (https://www.shadowrunsixthworld.com/resources/).
Title: Re: 6th - Shotguns
Post by: Remnar on <10-07-19/1746:49>
Thank you!
Title: Re: 6th - Shotguns
Post by: Shadowhack on <10-07-19/1834:20>
Combat book is coming soon.  It'll probably have some love for shotguns, I'd imagine.

No reason to ever use a shotgun in SR6 unless you're bad at math or want one for RP purposes.

Eh, I'd say "no reason" is an exaggeration:  They hit harder than SMGs, and have better Close ARs than rifles.

I haven't heard of any other books coming out soon. Do you have a list of what it coming out other than the list they have on Catalyst?
Title: Re: 6th - Shotguns
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on <10-07-19/1843:40>
I haven't heard of any other books coming out soon. Do you have a list of what it coming out other than the list they have on Catalyst?

No, but I tend to obsessively watch interviews CGL gives.  There's a FB post from the Line Developer announcing the combat book, and an interview on youtube teased that Rigger 6th edition is slated for Gen Con next year.

They're word from the man himself, but there's no assurances that plans/deadlines can't change.

And of course there's the "Officially" announced plotbook titled 30 Nights coming up, too.
Title: Re: 6th - Shotguns
Post by: Ghost Rigger on <10-07-19/1936:19>
Shotguns also have an underbarrel mount, which SMGs lack. That means you can use a bipod/tripod, or combine a laser sight / external smartgun with e.g. a scope. If you want to add both a scope and an external smartgun, you can't do that with the Praetor. You can do that with a Roomsweeper.
Did you just unironically suggest putting a scope on a shotgun?
Title: Re: 6th - Shotguns
Post by: ZeroSum on <10-07-19/2029:54>
Shotguns also have an underbarrel mount, which SMGs lack. That means you can use a bipod/tripod, or combine a laser sight / external smartgun with e.g. a scope. If you want to add both a scope and an external smartgun, you can't do that with the Praetor. You can do that with a Roomsweeper.
Did you just unironically suggest putting a scope on a shotgun?
Put a silencer on it too!
(https://www.silencercentral.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/Salvo-12-Gauge-Shotgun-Silencer-Silencerco_2.jpg)
Title: Re: 6th - Shotguns
Post by: Ghost Rigger on <10-07-19/2345:59>
MADNESS. This edition has robbed us all of our sanity.
Title: Re: 6th - Shotguns
Post by: Ajax on <10-29-19/0647:55>
Did you just unironically suggest putting a scope on a shotgun?

Scopes for shotguns is very much a real thing (http://www.minutemanreview.com/best-shotgun-scopes/). From red-dot sights for rapid target acquisition for varmint hunting (and for home defense), high magnification scopes for for deer hunting), or something in between for duck hunting or sporting clays.

Truth be told, Shadowrun's early editions grossly overstated how much spread shotguns have. Per SR2 p. 95: "The user of the shotgun can set the choke of the weapon at anywhere from 2 to 10. What this umber determines is how quickly the shot spreads. For every number of meters equal to the choke setting that the shot travels, it will spread one meter to either side of the center line of fire. That means a shotgun firing with a choke of 2 would catch targets along a one-meter-wide path for two meters, than a two-meter-wide path for another two meters, and so on. (The example continues, but I'm cutting it off here. -Ajax)"

That is a ludicrous amount of spread. In reality, a 12 gauge shotgun using birdshot with 0 Constriction cylinder bore choke should average a 1.5 meter spread at 40 meters... and that's about as wide as you can get, without risking life and limb with some sort of "duckfoot choke" that Bubba the Methhead juryrigged in his basement.

I'm not saying SR6's shotgun rules are perfect (if anything, I'd up all of their DV's a pip or two and change the way flechette ammo works) but the older editions had their own silliness to them too.
Title: Re: 6th - Shotguns
Post by: penllawen on <10-29-19/0710:56>
Truth be told, Shadowrun's early editions grossly overstated how much spread shotguns have.
Well, you could argue that the vast, vast majority of media - be it TV, film, videogames, TTRPGs, etc - all vastly overstate shotgun spread. And then you could further argue if Shadowrun being true to the movies rather than true to real life is a feature or a bug... YMMV but I don't think it's obviously a bad thing that Shadowrun works this way.
Title: Re: 6th - Shotguns
Post by: Ajax on <10-29-19/0757:29>
Shadowrun has always been a bit schizophrenic about whether it is a system meant to emulate cinematic action-movie logic, a system meant to simulate real world physics, or something in between... Kind of the charm, I guess.
Title: Re: 6th - Shotguns
Post by: Michael Chandra on <10-29-19/0815:45>
Why'd you bring a shotgun to the party?
Why'd you bring a shotgun to the party?
Everybody's got one, there's nothing new about it
Want to make a statement?
You should have come without it!
Title: Re: 6th - Shotguns
Post by: skalchemist on <10-29-19/0953:09>
Apparently there are scopes custom made for shotguns, not just any scope will do...

https://www.dailyshooting.com/best-shotgun-scope/

It makes sense with slugs on reflection. 
Title: Re: 6th - Shotguns
Post by: Shadowjack on <10-29-19/1002:07>
Shotguns can use bipods and tripods but are those realistic options? It strikes me as quite odd to whip out a stand and start firing at medium or shorter ranges. Wouldn't you just be better off doing the same thing with assault rifles? I picture shotguns in Shadowrun as being powerful in short to medium ranges and having some AOE capabilities. Additionally, I assume you can't use bipods and tripods from behind cover.
Title: Re: 6th - Shotguns
Post by: Ajax on <10-29-19/1424:01>
Shotguns can use bipods and tripods but are those realistic options? It strikes me as quite odd to whip out a stand and start firing at medium or shorter ranges. Wouldn't you just be better off doing the same thing with assault rifles? I picture shotguns in Shadowrun as being powerful in short to medium ranges and having some AOE capabilities. Additionally, I assume you can't use bipods and tripods from behind cover.

Just like with scopes, shotgun bipeds are a real thing (https://www.outdoorlife.com/blogs/strut-zone/2010/03/turkey-shotgun-bipods/), most commonly used for turkey hunting or other situations where you need to remain prone or crouched for extended periods.

And you absolutely should be able to use a bipod or tripod from behind cover! That’s arguably the best way to use them.  Bipods or tripods permit the user to easily rest their weapon on objects, like a wall, reducing their fatigue and increasing accuracy and stability:

(https://cdn0.thetruthaboutguns.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/ar-15-bipod.jpg)

(https://media.outdoorempire.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/sniper-aiming.jpeg)

(https://blog.cheaperthandirt.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/Lyme_3.jpg)


Title: Re: 6th - Shotguns
Post by: Shadowjack on <10-29-19/1448:45>
@Ajax That's cool to learn and see, thank you! So, in Shadowrun, would people actually just deploy one of these at 40 meters and start firing while stationary? I know it's a game but man that seems highly unrealistic. Afaik there is no drawback to doing so.
Title: Re: 6th - Shotguns
Post by: Hobbes on <10-29-19/1509:52>
Yes, you'd set up 40 plus Meters away and start shooting if you can.

Hunters will take shots at 100+ meters with slugs or rifles at larger game.  Deer/Elk and whatnot.  Ducks or Geese if you're a good shot and/or have lots of ammo to burn.  Personally I can't hit anything that far out though   :D

Infantry engagements are sometimes at city block+ type of ranges although mostly the small arms fire is covering/suppressing fire.  Hits are more accidental at longer ranges.  You're just trying to keep them pinned down while the Maneuver element gets in closer.  Or till the Artillery/Air Strike/Tanks get there.

Shadowrun engagements are probably more like police/swat type of actions though.  Few on Few or Few on one.  Squad level stuff isn't particularly applicable when you're trying to take down that Halloweener right there with the Moltov. 
Title: Re: 6th - Shotguns
Post by: Ajax on <10-29-19/1732:36>
40 meters is only 131 feet or to put that into easier to visualize terms, roughly the distance from one side to the other of the typical four-lane highway. A bit on the far for most shotguns, if firing shot, but definitely still do-able. Easier with slugs, although still not ideal... But if the goal is more “throw lead downrange to make the other guys stay down so my guys can maneuver” then a shotgun will be fine at 40 meters.

The U.S. Army’s qualification standards (https://rdl.train.army.mil/catalog-ws/view/100.ATSC/7EC92143-5B7C-4509-BBD1-92F3CFE7C696-1546877323138/gta19_19_003.pdf) for shotgun call for training courses out to 25 meters, with the qualifying courses of fire all being 15 m or less.

I think SR6 really got it right with the new Attack Ratings by range band system. Generally speaking, a shotgun and a rifle should be about on par with each other at “Medium” ranges, with rifles doing a lot better at “Far” and “Extreme” ranges... But with shotguns having a distinct edge at “Close” ranges.

Title: Re: 6th - Shotguns
Post by: Shadowjack on <10-29-19/1922:12>
Great insight, guys. To clarify my concern though, if you deployed a bipod/tripod at 40 meters and fired from a stationary position in a firefight, wouldn't you just get shot down in seconds? The bonuses provided from a mechanical standpoint are excellent but I'm having a hard time understanding it immersion-wise. I picture bipods and tripods as being used from "safe" positions, not out in the open at ranges where pistols can shoot the user down (in-game).
Title: Re: 6th - Shotguns
Post by: Ajax on <10-29-19/2013:31>
Great insight, guys. To clarify my concern though, if you deployed a bipod/tripod at 40 meters and fired from a stationary position in a firefight, wouldn't you just get shot down in seconds? The bonuses provided from a mechanical standpoint are excellent but I'm having a hard time understanding it immersion-wise. I picture bipods and tripods as being used from "safe" positions, not out in the open at ranges where pistols can shoot the user down (in-game).

Fire-and-Maneuver (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire_and_movement), bounding overwatch (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bounding_overwatch), leapfrogging, and other small unit tactics work quite well in Shadowrun. The basic idea is that if you need to move through a space while being shot at (or you expect to be shot at soon) only half of your group should move and the other half should be shooting.

A combat round in Shadowrun is only meant to represent a few seconds of time, with everyone constantly doing stuff simultaneously and not just politely waiting their turn. So Samurai Sam might sprint forward, drawing his katana and his machine pistol; Molly McMercenary takes a knee behind a crate, steadying her shotgun’s bipod on it, and throws some lead downrange, hopefully suppressing the enemy; and Dickie Decker dives behind hard cover and starts hacking.

Three-ish seconds later, Sam has taken cover behind a forklift, so he throws a suppressive burst towards the enemy; Molly stands up and sprints closer to the enemy, reloading her shotgun as she runs...

Now, ideally, if you have to take a long range shot you’re doing it with long range weapon (or you have a stupendously high dice pool). But even a crappy weapon used by a guy with a tiny dice pool can contribute: every die you roll has a “6” on it, right?
Title: Re: 6th - Shotguns
Post by: Shadowjack on <10-29-19/2152:22>
Great example. I guess I'm picturing the combat slightly incorrectly, I was under the impression you plant the bipod and then hold the position. I didn't realize bipods and tripods were utilized while on the move as well.
Title: Re: 6th - Shotguns
Post by: Ajax on <10-29-19/2214:27>
Great example. I guess I'm picturing the combat slightly incorrectly, I was under the impression you plant the bipod and then hold the position. I didn't realize bipods and tripods were utilized while on the move as well.

Tripods, not so much, mostly because those tend only to be used (in real life) on crew-served weapons, for example a M2HB heavy machine gun. One man will carry the weapon, another will carry the tripod, and somebody else hauls ammo for it... you’re looking at approximately 130-150 lbs. all told.  You don’t fire these things on the move.

But then again, our armed forces have a distinct lack of Trolls.
Title: Re: 6th - Shotguns
Post by: Shadowjack on <10-30-19/0646:38>
My character is a troll with 8 strength :D Bipods are for being prone or sitting, tripods are for kneeling or sitting. In Shadowrun, I picture bipods as better if you're holding a position and tripods being better if you're somewhat mobile. I've been considering homebrewing an underbarrel weight that provides 1 AR since I'm pretty sure that's what it'll do in the combat book.Then maybe I can bring a bipod for times when I'm holding a position.
Title: Re: 6th - Shotguns
Post by: Ajax on <10-30-19/1123:23>
You’ve got the bipod/tripod relationship backwards. A bipod is small and light, it’s best if you plan to be on the move a lot; a tripod is large and bulky, it’s best if you’re going to be holding a position.

That’s why you’ll see modern soldiers with bipods on their assault rifles, carbines, and squad automatic weapons and only see tripods on heavy machine guns and the like.
Title: Re: 6th - Shotguns
Post by: Shadowjack on <10-30-19/1203:29>
According to the book though, bipods are used when prone or sitting, tripods are used when sitting or kneeling. While prone and at a distance, you get a nice boost to AR and some defense dice.
Title: Re: 6th - Shotguns
Post by: Ajax on <10-30-19/1336:21>
This would not be the first time Shadowrun got things muddled in their firearms terminology. We've been waiting for thirty years for them to figure out that "clips" aren't what they think they are...
Title: Re: 6th - Shotguns
Post by: Michael Chandra on <10-30-19/1406:43>
They figured that out ages ago. It's already been addressed in-universe even. Get with the times, oldtimers.
Title: Re: 6th - Shotguns
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on <10-30-19/1419:56>
This would not be the first time Shadowrun got things muddled in their firearms terminology. We've been waiting for thirty years for them to figure out that "clips" aren't what they think they are...

In the fictional Sixth World, the english language has diverged and "clip" formally DOES mean what we mean in the real world when we say "magazine".
Title: Re: 6th - Shotguns
Post by: Ajax on <10-30-19/1509:32>
Bah! Kids today with their cyberjacks and augmented reality... and what the drek is an “omae” anyway?! In my day, chummer, we had to share one cyberdeck between six ‘runners and we liked it! We had to drive our Yamaha Rapiers from Tacoma to Downtown — in acid rain! — Uphill!
Title: Re: 6th - Shotguns
Post by: FastJack on <10-30-19/1556:01>
Listen, don't make me close this thread. You all know the rules–"NO DISCUSSING CLIPS/MAGAZINES!"
Title: Re: 6th - Shotguns
Post by: CanRay on <11-03-19/0005:48>
(https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/pulpfictiontrunk2.png)

Should have brought Shotguns.
Title: Re: 6th - Shotguns
Post by: Hechtic on <03-09-20/0029:46>
Did I miss where the cost of the shottie ammo is listed in the book or the errata? I have went over both multiple times and have not found it, but I have also been known to be blind when looking for something specific as well
Title: Re: 6th - Shotguns
Post by: Sphinx on <03-09-20/1757:54>
Did I miss where the cost of the shottie ammo is listed in the book or the errata? I have went over both multiple times and have not found it, but I have also been known to be blind when looking for something specific as well.

I assume it's under "Rifles" in the Ammo Costs by Weapon Type table (SR6 p.262).
Title: Re: 6th - Shotguns
Post by: Shinobi Killfist on <04-04-20/1539:44>
Shotguns also have an underbarrel mount, which SMGs lack. That means you can use a bipod/tripod, or combine a laser sight / external smartgun with e.g. a scope. If you want to add both a scope and an external smartgun, you can't do that with the Praetor. You can do that with a Roomsweeper.

That said, there's indeed a lot of people that would like some extra rules for Flechette shotgun spreads. No idea if the combat book will have anything, we'll see in time. If not, I expect houserules to run galore. But I can understand the choice to leave such firing modes out of CRB.

I preferred when the roomsweeper was under the pistol category.

I honestly don't know what it is supposed to be now.  Its the highest damage shotgun, it is in the shotgun category so can use underbarrel. Traditionally its pistol sized and it gives a mention of it falling out of a pocket. What size is it for concealing, is it two handed, or one.
Title: Re: 6th - Shotguns
Post by: Michael Chandra on <04-04-20/1543:10>
Did I miss where the cost of the shottie ammo is listed in the book or the errata? I have went over both multiple times and have not found it, but I have also been known to be blind when looking for something specific as well.

I assume it's under "Rifles" in the Ammo Costs by Weapon Type table (SR6 p.262).
Incidentally, these are now mentioned in the Feb errata document.