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Some comments from Jason Hardy on criticism of 6e

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Finstersang

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« Reply #45 on: <10-16-19/0722:02> »
5th Edition: Crying out loud! Technomancers can do anything and are ruining my cool characters! And there's too much power behind spirits! And don't even get me started on Skill Limits....

  • Iīm sorry, but when was there ever a significant amount of players complaining about Technomancers in 5th Edition? Or are you missing a negation here?
  • The complaints about Spirits were 100% valid, and yet the problem has gotten even worse in 6th Edition. Your attempt to paint the community as nitpicky crybabies who just "donīt get" the ineffable plan of the devs not only comes off as incredibly smug; the examples you choose even support the stance that there was no consideration for the most frequently criticized problems of 5th Edition when making 6th. Pro Tipp: If a lot of people frequently complain about a certain aspect of the game, itīs usually not because they are all hating grognards, itīs because there is a legitimate issue.


PatrolDeer

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« Reply #46 on: <10-16-19/0744:16> »
I am trying to find an article that I read a while ago, but I'm having trouble locating it. If I find it I will post the reference, but to summarize, it reflected on how the "original" target market for table top RPG's was aging out and that companies which still produced table top style materials were having difficulty attracting new consumers. The main reason behind this was the video game alternatives to table top RPG's.

Organic growth is certainly achieved when a company is able to sell more product to a larger market than it previously had, but I'm not sure if that is what is happening here. I feel like many many RPG's are playing a defensive strategy, just attempting to maintain market share. Shadowrun seems to be struggling to find an identity in today's market place.

There was an interesting video on Youtube that had some of the writers examining the way certain things in Shadowrun are phasing out due to shifts in societal perceptions of what is considered high tech. For instance, the credstick, which may have been seen as futuristic and cool in the 80's and early 90's, is almost archaic and seen as a form of untraceable currency rather than the future of the way our currency will be handled. With that in mind, Shadowrun has always sought to be a cyberpunk/fantasy crossover with futuristic overtones. I'm just not sure it is putting image across with new players.
I think that the major problem that Shadowrun will face in the future is with the change in the way new generations will view product quality. As I'm sure you know, the generation that is moving in to fill the current consumer markets are brand insensitive. They are quality and price sensitive, which presents a problem in the manner that Catalyst is producing their printed product. I think that Catalyst needs to solve their editing issues above all. It makes the finished product look inferior and like it was rushed through production. For a market that is not necessarily married to any brand, but considers "bang for the buck", the quality issues that plague Shadowrun printed materials may prove to be a major thorn in their side.

Above all, I believe that the creators truly need to start addressing the issues being brought up by critics, even if they do not believe that those critics represent the market as a whole. There is that old saying about how a good services will be shared with additional person but a bad service will be shared with ten additional people. In my particular case, I am one of the ten people who have not been convinced to purchase any 6th edition materials. I'll admit I bought the 6th edition starter box, because it was the only product out at the time. But then I started listening to people who were playing 6th edition when the additional resources came out and the reviews were, at best, mixed. I became lukewarm in my desire to purchase additional materials due to those mixed reviews. The radio silence initiated is not helping that cause at all.

Hey Kato! Awesome ideas, some proper marketing crunch there  ;D

Spot on! Ageing of the target customer base is one reason for changes, second one is competition and threat from highly innovative industry, like Entertainment is. There is so much content out there, that long standing titles need to be re-introduced and often changed, modified or expanded. ( Battlefied, D&D, Batman, you name it). It would be interesting to see the if there is a correlation between attention span of young people and development of entertainment industry ( correlation is not causation, but it can lead to interesting insight ).

I agree that RPG tabletops are playing a defensive, or entrenched type of strategy, just holding on to their market share, trying to diversify. I assume that there was a time when TTRPG peaked,  booming with new systems. Could we make an argument here, that if economies experience cycles, TTRPG's experience the same ? So that there are times when they peak and times when they drop ?

Now this is an amazing perspective. I would love to see that video. I can relate to this, as for me reading about Eurowars from today's perspective didn't make sense in my mind. Why would Russia go in with full scale military, when as we can see on Ukraine case, hybrid warfare on multiple fronts (media, cyber, politics, economics, society) is proving to work quite well ( from a warfare perspective ). It could be totally justifiable thinking when authors wrote those books decades ago. 

On the other hand, we have things like LEO and Arcology habitats, Mars base, and the Corp monopolies being crazy accurate. Space X can land a returning rocket from space on a drone ship. Google is getting 2.5 billion Eur fines for abusing dominant market power, Facebook is used to manipulate elections. Volkswagen cheats on their emission output data. Volcanoes erupt and halts air traffic in large parts of Europe, Boston gets winters which can outright kill people. Sounds like Shadowrun to me.

I agree to a point. Yes the CRB is flawed. No one can argue about that. How much tho, is subjective.
Neo - Anarchist streetpedia and No Future are in my eyes outright great. Yesterday I was laughing my ass off reading how sports work in the Sixth world. Very entertaining writing, they kept the oldschool concept where you had parts of text as a forum conversation.
You are right that consumers are not brand sensitive anymore and they want quality and releasing badly edited product will not bring other customers along, it will discourage others by words of mouth, which is the strongest type of advertisement.

However I am an example of disregarding the negative fuzz.The added value of such deeply evolved setting with its own history and flavour is for me (and I hope that also for some other consumers) more than mistakes in editing.

Finally, there is a radio silence which is understandable but also a missed marketing opportunity. But I disagree that Catalyst doesn't give a damn about the community, as I find it almost rude towards all the people with " Catalyst Demo team" handle here on the forums.  (That is more of a reaction towards other posts than you what you wrote)

ZeroSum

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« Reply #47 on: <10-16-19/0752:00> »
But I disagree that Catalyst doesn't give a damn about the community, as I find it almost rude towards all the people with " Catalyst Demo team" handle here on the forums.  (That is more of a reaction towards other posts than you what you wrote)
Note that Demo Team agents are in no way, shape, or form official reps for Catalyst. It sounds counter-intuitive since they literally have "Catalyst" on their forum profiles, but they're just volunteers who run Shadowrun missions in an organized capacity.

You can become one too! Or at least, you used to. Not sure what that process is like any more.

* I say "just" with the utmost amount of respect for you guys, no shade intended...

EDIT:
"Do you want to know more?" https://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=8653.0
« Last Edit: <10-16-19/0753:48> by ZeroSum »

FastJack

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« Reply #48 on: <10-16-19/0819:05> »
5th Edition: Crying out loud! Technomancers can do anything and are ruining my cool characters! And there's too much power behind spirits! And don't even get me started on Skill Limits....

  • Iīm sorry, but when was there ever a significant amount of players complaining about Technomancers in 5th Edition? Or are you missing a negation here?
  • The complaints about Spirits were 100% valid, and yet the problem has gotten even worse in 6th Edition. Your attempt to paint the community as nitpicky crybabies who just "donīt get" the ineffable plan of the devs not only comes off as incredibly smug; the examples you choose even support the stance that there was no consideration for the most frequently criticized problems of 5th Edition when making 6th. Pro Tipp: If a lot of people frequently complain about a certain aspect of the game, itīs usually not because they are all hating grognards, itīs because there is a legitimate issue.


I was making up bogus arguments, but sure, go ahead and turn my parody into reality.

PatrolDeer

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« Reply #49 on: <10-16-19/0822:51> »
Note that Demo Team agents are in no way, shape, or form official reps for Catalyst. It sounds counter-intuitive since they literally have "Catalyst" on their forum profiles, but they're just volunteers who run Shadowrun missions in an organized capacity.

You can become one too! Or at least, you used to. Not sure what that process is like any more.
* I say "just" with the utmost amount of respect for you guys, no shade intended...
EDIT:
"Do you want to know more?" https://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=8653.0

Doesn't that still mean that Demo team is part of Catalyst ? If you are a volunteer for a Company, are you not part of the company ?  If you are a volunteer in active reserves in the Military, doesn't it mean that you are part of the Military ?

Edit: So you want to say that all these clarifications and answers provided by people with Catalyst demo team handle are answers which come from people unaffiliated with the game developers of Catalyst ?  Didn't Banshee literally wrote Matrix section in 6E ?

Didn't Hardy just responded to direct question from a community member? Because I feel that is the name of this thread.
« Last Edit: <10-16-19/0832:43> by PatrolDeer »

FastJack

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« Reply #50 on: <10-16-19/0832:57> »
Note that Demo Team agents are in no way, shape, or form official reps for Catalyst. It sounds counter-intuitive since they literally have "Catalyst" on their forum profiles, but they're just volunteers who run Shadowrun missions in an organized capacity.

You can become one too! Or at least, you used to. Not sure what that process is like any more.
* I say "just" with the utmost amount of respect for you guys, no shade intended...
EDIT:
"Do you want to know more?" https://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=8653.0

Doesn't that still mean that Demo team is part of Catalyst ? If you are a volunteer for a Company, are you not part of the company ?  If you are a volunteer in active reserves in the Military, doesn't it mean that you are part of the Military ?

Edit: So you want to say that all these clarifications and answers provided by people with Catalyst demo team handle are answers which come from people unaffiliated with the game developers of Catalyst ?
Demo team makes no call on how the game is designed. They may pass suggestions up the ladder, but when running the game, they have to abide by the rulings of official developers. You aren't part of the company, simply a representative. And if you volunteer for the active reserves, you're still getting paid by the government...

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #51 on: <10-16-19/0907:20> »
Banshee is a freelancer as well, so wrote stuff as freelancer, not as Demo Team Agent. Agents are volunteers solely paid in PDFs, when active as agents at open events we represent the company but cannot speak for it.
How am I not part of the forum?? O_O I am both active and angry!

PatrolDeer

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« Reply #52 on: <10-16-19/0910:49> »
Demo team makes no call on how the game is designed. They may pass suggestions up the ladder, but when running the game, they have to abide by the rulings of official developers. You aren't part of the company, simply a representative. And if you volunteer for the active reserves, you're still getting paid by the government...

Probably I phrased it in a bad way. I understand that Demo team is not Game Design team, but as you said, Demo team can be viewed as representative and thus can be considered as people affiliated to Catalyst. From there I derive the argument, that saying that Catalyst doesn't give a damn about community is not completely true, as we have here dedicated individuals affiliated with Catalyst which do give a lot of damn to answer, gather feed back and talk to the community.

I understand that the Military example is far fetched, but everyone in the Military get's payed by the Government some more some less, depends on their contribution, so one can view it, that they (Professionals as well as Active reserves) are all part of a larger structure.

Banshee

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« Reply #53 on: <10-16-19/1054:25> »
Demo team makes no call on how the game is designed. They may pass suggestions up the ladder, but when running the game, they have to abide by the rulings of official developers. You aren't part of the company, simply a representative. And if you volunteer for the active reserves, you're still getting paid by the government...

Probably I phrased it in a bad way. I understand that Demo team is not Game Design team, but as you said, Demo team can be viewed as representative and thus can be considered as people affiliated to Catalyst. From there I derive the argument, that saying that Catalyst doesn't give a damn about community is not completely true, as we have here dedicated individuals affiliated with Catalyst which do give a lot of damn to answer, gather feed back and talk to the community.

I understand that the Military example is far fetched, but everyone in the Military get's payed by the Government some more some less, depends on their contribution, so one can view it, that they (Professionals as well as Active reserves) are all part of a larger structure.

Just add my opinion and hopefully add some clarity.

As a Demo Team Agent yes we are seen publicly as an extension of CGL, but that is also very much a contradiction in and of itself. We are only tasked with running the games as unpaid volunteers and have no real knowledge or influence on what or when CGL does what it does. Even on new product releases most Agents do not find out anything until at best a few days before they go public.

Now though, as freelancer which I also am is a slightly different story, but only in so much as I know more about upcoming products and farther in advance and do get paid by CGL for the work I do it is only on a per project basis.  I still am not a CGL employee and can't comment on what, when, or how they do things.

So ultimately while it may appear publicly that myself and demo agents are an extension of CGL, we are in reality just a slightly more knowledgeable SR fan as any of you and even are comments and suggestions on rules are just that unless officially approved and supported by CGL.
Robert "Banshee" Volbrecht
Freelancer & FAQ Committee member
Former RPG Lead Agent
Catalyst Demo Team

ZeroSum

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« Reply #54 on: <10-16-19/1206:25> »
@PatrolDeer
Your example is inherently flawed. Army Reserves are part of the Army. They are not voluntary reps, they are a direct part of the chain of command.

Demo Team agents do not report to Catalyst as contractors, nor do they receive direct compensation for hours worked. When a Catalyst Demo Agent makes a statement on the forums, they are speaking as private individuals unaffiliated with Catalyst.

When they run Demo Games at a local store or at an event, they are partially representing Catalyst as a company and receive compensation in the form of free PDFs. But their statements are still their own, and Catalyst is not liable for anything an Agent says or does.

Therein lies the difference; when a reservist reports for duty, their parent unit is directly responsible for that person's actions. This is not the case with Demo Agents: in other words, when someone with "Catalyst Demo Team" on their forum profile makes a statement on the forum, chances are it's just a personal opinion and not a statement that has been officially endorsed by Catalyst.

Do with that information what you will.

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #55 on: <10-16-19/1209:03> »
Heck, I've got "Errata Team" tag on my forum profile and I can't even speak for the Errata Team, much less CGL.  (Which, like Demo Agents, are also unpaid volunteers who are not CGL employees)
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #56 on: <10-16-19/1635:09> »
For years I had the personal title "I do not work for Catalyst" because somehow people got the wrong impression and I needed that disclaimer just in case.
How am I not part of the forum?? O_O I am both active and angry!

PatrolDeer

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« Reply #57 on: <10-16-19/1642:55> »
Alright this obviously went out of control.

You don't work for Catalyst, you are volunteers. Thank you for all your hard work on this forum, who ever you are and for whom ever you work for.


Shadowhack

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« Reply #58 on: <10-16-19/1811:48> »
This has been an informative discussion so far. There are many things that I previously didn't know about TTRPG development that I know now. I'm also glad that for the most part this discussion has been very civil and people have been respectful of each others views.

Personally I think all of his comments make perfect sense. If I were in his position I might feel the exact same way. Shadowrun is probably one of the top 5 TTRPG IPs in the world right now so the pressure to perform  from TOPPS, or whomever might be dictating release dates, is probably very high and comes with an expectation of "fast" profit. Under those conditions I'm not unhappy with the product as it is now with errata coming out over time. I just hope the errata is integrated into the pdf as it is released.
« Last Edit: <10-16-19/1815:49> by Shadowhack »

wraith

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« Reply #59 on: <10-16-19/1954:19> »
This has been an informative discussion so far. There are many things that I previously didn't know about TTRPG development that I know now. I'm also glad that for the most part this discussion has been very civil and people have been respectful of each others views.

Personally I think all of his comments make perfect sense. If I were in his position I might feel the exact same way. Shadowrun is probably one of the top 5 TTRPG IPs in the world right now so the pressure to perform  from TOPPS, or whomever might be dictating release dates, is probably very high and comes with an expectation of "fast" profit. Under those conditions I'm not unhappy with the product as it is now with errata coming out over time. I just hope the errata is integrated into the pdf as it is released.

There is no pressure to perform from Topps. Topps does not give two tugs on a dead dog's leash so long as their license fees get paid and CGL doesn't manage to somehow completely devalue the brand.  Not that they haven't tried, what with that sidebar that's still in 'War!'.