Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => General Discussion => Topic started by: Tecumseh on <05-27-20/1913:42>
-
Firing Squad, the combat rulebook for 6E, just dropped.
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/315210/Shadowrun-Firing-Squad-Core-Combat-Rulebook
-
I'd be interested in knowing how much, if any, metaplot movement happens there. If anyone who gets it cares to report back it would really appreciated. I'm still interested in the sixth world, if not yet using Shadowrun: Sixth World, so I'm in the odd position of hoping that a crunch book has an interesting amount of fluff.
-
I'm flipping through it and am about halfway through It's the 6E equivalent of Run & Gun: weapons, armor, modifications for both, etc. I think the metaplot advancement might be limited to little bits and pieces that you get from product descriptions.
-
I know there are at least a few forumites who love to follow the personal metaplots of various jackpointer characters.
-
While I would have rather seen the problem fixed more organically rather than what I view as "gimmicky", this book did at least manage to effectively solve 60% of my personal rule set beefs with new martial arts and armor mod options. We'll see if anything else catches my eye once I have time to take more than a brief glance.
-
Iīm currently writing a lengthy review of the book, although based on the german version which dropped a week earlier for whatever reason. A few observations:
First: thereīs definitely some improvement to the current state to the game, PLUS the overall quality and clarity of the rules has also improved compared to the CRB. Sure, some of the "fixes" (like the MA quality that adds a Strength-Based Damage Bonus to melee Weapons) come a little too late for me, since I already houseruled stuff like this. But I can still rework the new additons to integrate them with my current set of houserules, and these might be just enough to help out tables without houserules.
However : Thereīs one major flaw which, despite various complaints AND various statements that there were big improvments coming, isnīt adressed at all, and itīs dragging everything down. At least in the german version, I found ZERO additional rules for the AR/DR comparison. And that is not just a problem because "ArMoR dOEs NoTHin >:(" (there are actually armor options that do help with damage soak now, although these are a bit gimmicky) - itīs a problem because the vast majority of the new perks and tactics in Firing Line only affect AR/DR values. So you meticulously pick out one of the 6(!) different Gunstock options plus the right Recoil Compensation for one of the new Guns (which also mostly just introduce different AR arrays) to get the perfect beast for the job and then you also ace one of the new Combat maneuvers with your teammates (which also mostly just affect AR/DR) only to push some numbers around that donīt do shit anyways - because you already beat the difference of 4, because you have already earned your 2 Hardy-approved Edge for the round, or forgot your morning cigarette or because (and I will never stop bringing this up) because you do the wildly unconventional tactic of Sniping out of Cover with a Scope.
In short: If you donīt already have some kind of houserule to smoothen out the Edge Limitations and/or make the AR/DR comparison have a bigger impact, 90% of new options are worth shit in 90% percent of cases.
Or am I mistaken here? Iīve seen various semi-official statements that AR/DR will matter more in the future. Is there something in the english version thatīs missing in the german translation? Something in the Errata?
-
there are actually armor options that do help with damage soak now, although these are a bit gimmicky
Well for the most part the entire rule set is very gimmicky in my opinion. If you are someone who is not into that style then the entire edition is always going to be a hard sell. I myself fall into that category.
Or am I mistaken here? Iīve seen various semi-official statements that AR/DR will matter more in the future. Is there something in the english version thatīs missing in the german translation?
I've only had time for a 10 minute skim at this point, but nothing jumped out at me. I agree with your assessment though.
-
Yeah, nothing too crazy jumped out at me. Melee builds got a couple mechanical "Must Haves" though, but hey, Str/3 to Weapon DV. Trolls with an Axe now do more damage than Pixies with an Axe.
I didn't notice much power creep in the Firearms, other than the already mentioned "thousand and one ways to Increase Attack Value". As there are several options to increase Defense Value as well, that seemed a wash. Assault Cannons have a new damage king though. But, Assault Cannons, so...whatever.
The Social Armor rules are okay and provide a loose guideline for Players/GMs to judge "What would be appropriate for this situation?".
I'll take a slower look through this week and see what I missed.
-
Had a chance to dive through the book more closely. Initial thoughts:
Pros
+ Grenades: All of the new grenades have sane damage codes, which makes me hopeful that a nerf is coming to CRB explosives.
+ Armor Social rating mechanic is a solid Edge gain boost for face characters, particular because it is well defined in game mechanics as opposed to GM whim.
+ Armor mods succeeded at both making armor significantly more relevant to damage resistance and making some spells more difficult to wield against you, both of which were needed. I am not a fan of the fact that we had to be gimmicky rather than intuitive to achieve this, but at least it is done.
+ Martial Arts are overall solid, but particularly allow Str to be appropriately relevant to weapon based melee damage again. Once more, I am not a fan of the fact that we had to be gimmicky rather than intuitive to achieve this, but at least it is done.
Neutral
= Most of the new weapons are mostly on par with old weapons. A few new best in class, but power creep was kept to a minimal overall.
= Milspec returns, still crazy good, but at least it comes with some fairly significant movement based penalties now.
= Both weapon and armor modifications are good overall, some being so good that they will be applied to every weapon always.
Cons
- The armor mods that allow you to resist more damage is illegal. Like...why? Isn't this the point of body armor? Just try to think about that logically for a moment.
- While Str with melee weapon damage was mostly fixed using martial arts, unarmed damage is still boned and nonsensical by comparison. The fully augmented body builder troll still naturally strikes as hard with his fists as the venerable paraplegic grandma elf.
In closing, a question: is toughweave intended to be able to stack with milspec? I can't find any wording preventing it at current.
-
= Milspec returns, still crazy good, but at least it comes with some fairly significant movement based penalties now.
Uh, not really?_? SR5 was far more strict. There, it halved your movement rate:RESTRICTIVE
This armor is a little unwieldy. Armors with this quality halve
Movement and incur Fatigue rolls with every Running check, even
the first one.
-
Since SR5's movement was based on agility and SR6 is a flat rate for all, it depends on the specific character in question. SR5 agility x2 while SR6 = flat 10 for all. So in short any character in SR5 with heavy milspec and an agility of 8+ (pretty much all combat characters ever) will be faster than an SR6 character in the same.
-
Doesn't change the fact that SR5's Milspec movement restrictions were bigger than SR6's, so claiming that NOW there's decent restrictions misses the SR5 rules.
-
Well we can nitpick over wording if you want, but the end result is the movement penalty is more impactful to top end characters in SR6 than it was in SR5.
-
In closing, a question: is toughweave intended to be able to stack with milspec? I can't find any wording preventing it at current.
Near as I can tell Toughweave, Mil-Spec and Reactive Armor all stack. Not sure how practical that would be for PCs though.
-
I find the rEVOlution Arms options compelling because of the wild die. They seem especially potent for secondary or backup weapons that aren't your specialty, since the wild die costs less (as a share of expected hits) and provides more upside (again as a share of expected hits) with smaller dice pools.
Say you're a non-combatant who has Agility 5 because you want to be able to tiptoe around well. You have a token point of Firearms or Close Combat, for 6 dice. With rEVOlution Arms options, you have decent shot at 4 or more hits, which would only happen 10% of the time without the wild die. All of a sudden you can lay down a significant number of hits with reasonable frequency. And if your wild die comes up a 1? It will only cost you one hit, on average.
Plus - this might be getting cheap - but I don't see any rules excluding the wild die from Edge boosts. So spend 1 Edge to reroll it or 2 Edge to +1 it (either from a 1 to a 2 or from a 4 to a 5) and you're in business. Maybe the "getting smacked by the GM business" but it seems RAW at the moment.
-
Edge shenanigans with the Wild die is RAW. And, as far as I can tell, intended. How your table feels about it may vary.
That said, even if you're Edging the Wild Die frequently I wouldn't count on single digit dice pools being useful in combat. You'll still rarely inflict meaningful damage on your actions. Specialization, Expertise, Smartgun Link in your Contacts, plus 4 dice for 10 Karma and 2000 Nuyen or so. They're cheap dice, pick them up along with a modest Agility and a couple ranks in Firearms. 10 Dice, plus a Wild Die. 1 in six times you'll miss clean, 1 in six times you'll hit pretty hard, 4 in six times you'll get in a minor flesh wound.
And don't screw around with the little guns. Iron Eagle, Explosive Rounds, SA Fire Mode, 6P with a socially acceptable Heavy Pistol. Make sure they know they've been kissed. ; )
-
There is a Rule already regarding edge rerolling the wild die. If it is rerolled, it is no longer a wild die.
So you can cancel your own wild die "1", but when rerolled if it comes up 5 or 6 its only 1 hit.
-
There is a rule for Exploding 6s and the Wild Die, the re-roll isn't Wild, but the original 6 still counts as 3 hits. The 1 Edge Re-roll a die doesn't mention the Wild Die, nor does the +1 to a die for 2 Edge. Near as I can tell the 1 Edge Re-roll and 2 Edge +1 still both counts as a Wild Die.
At least that I can find : ) "Wild Die" wasn't something I've gone scouring the rulebook over.
-
There is a Rule already regarding edge rerolling the wild die. If it is rerolled, it is no longer a wild die.
So you can cancel your own wild die "1", but when rerolled if it comes up 5 or 6 its only 1 hit.
That line is mentioned within the context of Exploding Dice. So 'I rolled a 6 on an Exploding Wild Die, on the reroll I roll another 6, on the second reroll I roll a 1, so I got 4 hits and do not suffer the 'wild-die-rolled-1' downside. There's no explicit rules anywhere on how Edge raise/reroll of a Wild Die work, as far as I can tell.
-
If Edge is being used and 6s explode, a 6 on the
wild die counts as 3 hits and can then be rerolled.
Any additional hits, rolled 1s, or re-rolls are counted
as a regular die, not a wild die.
Bolded for emphasis.
I rolled a 1 on the wild die... I spend edge to reroll it, it's no longer a wild die.
NPC rolls a 6 on the wild die... you spend edge to force a reroll, if it comes up 1 it's just a 1 and not a wild die 1.
In contrast, the rule doesn't mention MODIFYING the rolled value. If you roll a 4 on the wild die and spend 2 edge to turn that 4 into a 5 (or you spend 4 edge to turn a 3 into a 5, etc), it's still a wild die and you now have 3 hits.
-
Except that that sentence is within the context of exploding 6s: '... and can then be rerolled; extra hits/1s/rerolls [of the rerolled die] are counted as regular dice'.
It's the same paragraph and explicitly deals with the context of rerolling an exploding Wild Die, not a separate paragraph explaining how Edge-interaction works, and still doesn't explain whether we can avoid the result of rolling 1 on the Wild Die by raising its value (which is impossible when you had exploding dice).
-
I read that the same way as Mikey, and yes, it does pain me to say that. :p
-
Could totally parse it that way. My reading is that both lines are in the context of Exploding 6s. And either reading the 2 Edge spend to change the result of the roll still counts a Wild Die.
You're (Edit SSDR) cool with spending 2 Edge to change a Wild Die result from a 1 to 2 or a 5 to 6? And the One Edge Spend turns it from a Wild Die into a Normal Die?
Not terribly important I guess. Wild Die comes up a "1", Player spends one Edge to re-roll, comes up a 1 or 6. Stuff like that isn't going to happen frequently. Even if you've got a player or two using Wild Dice frequently at a table you'll go several games before seeing that outcome.
-
Yeah, I read it same way as Michael.
-
Beyond idiocy of some of the Grey "help boxes". My personal favorite was page 85 Entitled "Team Dynamics". Just wanted to say thanks guys, I'm glad you found the time to write three paragraphs and a sentence to clear up that old problem. Gosh its been that easy the whole time, who knew?
Sarcasm aside, I echo the well made point this book would have been interesting, if a rule had just been added to make the AR DR comparison do anything to modify the related attack roll or even just the related damage value. It could have been as simple as adding another Martial Art Technique just like you know Precision strikes which addressed another long stand complaint with the system. Sadly less that much of this book is a really a large number of options to drop cash on stuff that largely does nothing.
-
Werenīt there even vague promises made that AR/DR will have a bigger RAW impact in Firing Line? What happened to that? Argle Bargle Foofaraw? Did the Editors accidentaly delete that part (while also deleting themselves from the Credits?). Executive J. Hardy Decision because you just canīt have nice things in Detroit?
Because seriously, I just canīt believe this utter idiocy. Amidst all the complaints that AR/DR is not meaningfull enough, you release a combat supplement that mostly adds options that mostly affect these meaningless values, but without giving them anymore meaning?
Or is there something in the mix for the next Core book "Errata Patch" instead? (Unlikely, but itīs the only thing I would appreciate here...)
-
Phew, made it through the gun-section. Spotted a few small errors here and there. Wrote down my mental responses for fun:
- So a Pilum has a blunt version? Is that a foam replica version?
- Why is a Folding Kami strictly better than the equivalent-cost normal version?
- Survival walking cane = frickin' A!
- Ooooh, special hammer for bashing open doors (and skulls)
- Note to self: Combat Boots for all HTR, just because
- Wait a sec, if their weapon AR is Strx2, does that mean their actual AR is Strx3?! Sounds a bit excessive O_O
- Oh my, melee weapons to accompany your fancy clothing!
- 'Colt Secret Agent' Secret AGENT Man! Secret AGENT Man!
- Oh cute a revolver that holds spent casings and a spare set of ammo
- Praetorian looks awesome again
- Oh my, using a dart gun for medicine is brilliant
- Surprise, motherfragger! Triple-barrel-shotgun to the FACE!
- Spas-25 (24 says its stats) looks wicked and love how it's designed to help with breaching
- Full-auto-shotgun remains scary as fuck
- Oh my, AR 1 at <3m XD Bracing your gun on your ballistic shield sounds bad-ass btw
- HELLO Rhino Hunter! How about we hunt some pigs instead...
- Oh my, that War Hound! If you don't want underbarrel grenades, get this puppy instead of an Alpha!
- Okay that M-1400 sounds pretty cool
- Shouldn't the Ultimax 83 have 'melee hardened' in its statblocks?
- Mamma Mad! Oh my!
- A tri-barrel WHAT NOW?!
- 30kg HMG sounds pretty light, really. The only good Knight is a Black Knight. Or a Knight cut in half by one.
- Alphabetical order causes the Knights to be in the wrong order XD Same for Charybdis and Scylla
- Ties already always go to the attacker, so the Charybdis's buff there actually does nothing
- Scylla sounds like lovely greased lightning
- Gun gauntlets!
- MELEE COMBAT GRENADES OH MY GOD I KNOW AT LEAST THREE PCS THAT WOULD LOVE THIS SHIT!!!
- GLITTER GRENADES!!! =D
- FLASHPAK JEWELRY!!! =D
- What sick fuck came up with a triple-barrel grenade launcher... KRIME!
- Caltrops seem weak. Wait, Caltrops you resist, but Kaltrops say you apply the damage?
- Oooooh Noise grenades and Thermographic Flash-Paks!
- What is the Extreme Range supposed to be for Bows? Sounds weird.
- Eep the Pulse sounds scary Confused-wise
- Oh my those laser-guns have fantastic attack rating
-
- Oh my those laser-guns have fantastic attack rating
Now imagine this having an actual meaning ::)
But yes, the variety is really nice. The melee weapons are quite stylish, the more conventional weapons are interesting enough to be considered an option over the stuff in the core rules, and the more futuristic stuff isnīt just a pointless gimmick this time.
-
- Oh my those laser-guns have fantastic attack rating
Now imagine this having an actual meaning ::)
Sure. Let me just envision SR6 as it's written already... Done. Hey, Attack Rating has a meaning. Such a marvelous imaginary situation.
And hey, if you want to tweak it: https://shadowland.blog/2020/05/08/houserules-edge-ar-dr/
-
Echo to Finstersang that a great opportunity to expand or later the AR/DR mechanic was missed, but at least the book was overall a step in the right direction of making the system more palatable. Several of the commonly voiced community criticisms were addressed, so maybe if we just get louder on the AR/DR stuff that might get some lime light too. :p
Edit: But in the meantime: SSDR, what about them other explosives home slice!? :)
-
Edit: But in the meantime: SSDR, what about them other explosives home slice!? :)
Heh. I'd love to see the CRB grenades/rockets rewritten with lower DVs, but alas I'm not the King of Shadowrun. And that's probably for the best ;D
-
Echo to Finstersang that a great opportunity to expand or later the AR/DR mechanic was missed, but at least the book was overall a step in the right direction of making the system more palatable. Several of the commonly voiced community criticisms were addressed, so maybe if we just get louder on the AR/DR stuff that might get some lime light too. :p
Thatīs my (faint...) hope here as well. Once you assume that AR/DR is "fixed" in a reasonable way, Firing Line is a huge step in the right direction. And since I (like many of the 6th Edition "remainers") already have Houserules for that stuff in place, it is a really nice addition for me. However, without that fix, the value of that book rapidly decreases.
Apart from that problem, I have hardly any major complaints besides one: The stuff in the "Edge Actions" section (Which is also deeply intertwined with the MA section) is extremely hit-or-miss. Half of the new Actions are neat actually and worthwhile, but the other half is so obviously bad that you just might have left the space blank. The different the "Called Shot" variations are an especially bad example, at least in the german version. Not only because of the hefty Edge Costs (Cool, I have to "farm" Edge before I can try to hit an opponen in the eyes? ???) - many of these are just so bad in terms of gameplay effects and success chances that they wouldnīt even be worthwhile without negative modifiers or Edge Costs.
-
Sure. Let me just envision SR6 as it's written already... Done. Hey, Attack Rating has a meaning. Such a marvelous imaginary situation.
And hey, if you want to tweak it: https://shadowland.blog/2020/05/08/houserules-edge-ar-dr/
By all means keep telling yourself that Chandra, cause man that reflex is just working so well for you so far hasn't it?
Anyway I agree addressing the AR/DR problem along with the other steps taken in Firing Squad would be a reasonable start towards addressing a good chunk of the core issues or 6e. That fact that martial arts in 6e will be the equivalent of feat tax on melee builds and you can end some very strange out comes as result is real but minor enough I'm not going to get too upset about it. I'm not sold that the boat can be turned around at this point, once a system is labeled by the community getting folks to change their minds is an uphill battle. There still a lot of other issues to be addressed, but it is nice to see something done address the concerns, even if it's very minimal.
Edit: btw that blog isn't at all correct, when we say AR/DR does nothing it's not just the 4 point thing it's also scope, flaws, edge limits, the long list of things the negate the any value in edge. Because any and all of those conditions totally invalidate AR/DR, and in fact it's so much easier to invalidate that system then engage with that system. Until that's not true AR/DR have no value. Also armor not soaking also was an issue. So really if you're going to be honest I'd suggest making that more clear.
-
Heh. I'd love to see the CRB grenades/rockets rewritten with lower DVs, but alas I'm not the King of Shadowrun. And that's probably for the best ;D
I dig it. But you guys have at least passed it on to the powers that be, right?
-
Apart from that problem, I have hardly any major complaints besides one: The stuff in the "Edge Actions" section (Which is also deeply intertwined with the MA section) is extremely hit-or-miss. Half of the new Actions are neat actually and worthwhile, but the other half is so obviously bad that you just might have left the space blank.
I do agree, but I suppose I tend to just overlook that because "dead weight options" are so common in every game I have ever played that I have learned to quickly and automatically just sift through them.
-
Heh. I'd love to see the CRB grenades/rockets rewritten with lower DVs, but alas I'm not the King of Shadowrun. And that's probably for the best ;D
I dig it. But you guys have at least passed it on to the powers that be, right?
We sure did
-
We sure did
My nerds! <3
-
Apart from that problem, I have hardly any major complaints besides one: The stuff in the "Edge Actions" section (Which is also deeply intertwined with the MA section) is extremely hit-or-miss. Half of the new Actions are neat actually and worthwhile, but the other half is so obviously bad that you just might have left the space blank.
I do agree, but I suppose I tend to just overlook that because "dead weight options" are so common in every game I have ever played that I have learned to quickly and automatically just sift through them.
The only way to make sure every option is the best option is to just have one option. ; )
-
Yeah, but in this case, the deadweight options are not stuff like different "strictly worse than..." pieces of gear, spells or perks. A lot of the fragged-up "Called Shots" are stuff that players will def. want to do without any real alternatives, but will almost never be able to pull off RAW because of the Edge taxation (yep, always a good to idea to double down on things that are widely criticized ::)) and the super-low success rate. At this point, a supplement can actually make things worse, by making actions (almost) impossible that otherwise would have just been improvised by the GM.
"Oh shit, that dude will start to call for help. GM, can I punch him in the throat to stop him?"
Flips through Firing Line "Oh. Yes, thereīs a 2 Edge Combat Action for that."
"Ok... weird that I canīt do that without narrative mojo points, but luckily, I have 2 Edge left. Anything else?"
"Yes, you need more Net hits than your opponentīs Agility."
"... WTF? Net Hits? That could be, like, 5 or 6?!"
"8 in this case. Dudeīs augmented. Also, keep in mind that you canīt enhance that roll with Edge because you already have to pay 2 Edge to attempt this in the first place."
"...."
"You also donīt deal damage if you hit ;D"
And thatīs probably the most usable one. You even have to pay 2 Edge and beat a Theshold of you opponentīs Agility with your net hits to simply stop an opponentīs movement with an interrupt Attack. You know, that kind thing you could just do with a -5 Initiative Interrupt Action in 5th Edition? Oh boi, guess that will put end to skirmishing cheese in 6th Edition ::)
Also, all of these "Called Shots" work a tad bit differently: The Edge Costs vary, as well as the Attribute for the Threshold (itīs always too high nevertheless...), sometimes thereīs even an additional dice pool modifier (negative, of course). Not that this will confuse anyone. Because no one will ever use these in their RAW state.
-
Werenīt there even vague promises made that AR/DR will have a bigger RAW impact in Firing Line? What happened to that?
Were you thinking of this post:
In 5e you could increase Soak to no mechanical benefit as after a certain point you could buy enough hits to shake off any damage from a gun. In 6e you can increase DR to no mechanical benefit as after a certain point you've exceeded any Attack Rating you're likely to see.
As a GM I didn't like the huge variance in PC defense and soak pools that you found at 5E tables. But, IMO, 6E was an over correction as significant investments in DR don't pay "enough" to be worth it. Dermal Armor, Ortho Skin, Mystic Armor, all really expensive choices for what you gain.
Hopefully future 6E supplements will give some Quality or Edge Actions or something for the high end DR builds. Something that triggers at +6/+8/+10 or whatever.
Shrug it off! 3 Edge, if your DR is 8 or more higher than an incoming attack that attack does no Damage.
Quality You got nuthin! If your DR is 6 or more higher than an incoming attack gain +4 Dice on a Charisma + Intimidate check.
ect, ect, ect. Lots of ways to use the mechanic to make a higher DR mechanically desirable if they wanted to.
Insider tease ... I think you will like Firing Squad
(I don't know what options Firing Squad have that make higher DR more useful; I don't have the book.)
-
Werenīt there even vague promises made that AR/DR will have a bigger RAW impact in Firing Line? What happened to that?
Were you thinking of this post:
In 5e you could increase Soak to no mechanical benefit as after a certain point you could buy enough hits to shake off any damage from a gun. In 6e you can increase DR to no mechanical benefit as after a certain point you've exceeded any Attack Rating you're likely to see.
As a GM I didn't like the huge variance in PC defense and soak pools that you found at 5E tables. But, IMO, 6E was an over correction as significant investments in DR don't pay "enough" to be worth it. Dermal Armor, Ortho Skin, Mystic Armor, all really expensive choices for what you gain.
Hopefully future 6E supplements will give some Quality or Edge Actions or something for the high end DR builds. Something that triggers at +6/+8/+10 or whatever.
Shrug it off! 3 Edge, if your DR is 8 or more higher than an incoming attack that attack does no Damage.
Quality You got nuthin! If your DR is 6 or more higher than an incoming attack gain +4 Dice on a Charisma + Intimidate check.
ect, ect, ect. Lots of ways to use the mechanic to make a higher DR mechanically desirable if they wanted to.
Insider tease ... I think you will like Firing Squad
(I don't know what options Firing Squad have that make higher DR more useful; I don't have the book.)
For what it's worth I was pretty vague for a lot of reasons ... NDA of course but also because I didn't know what the final version ended up being.
What I was hinting at though was that I knew there was going to be new ways for armor to actually mitigate damage.
-
"Oh shit, that dude will start to call for help. GM, can I punch him in the throat to stop him?"
Flips through Firing Line "Oh. Yes, thereīs a 2 Edge Combat Action for that."
"Ok... weird that I canīt do that without narrative mojo points, but luckily, I have 2 Edge left. Anything else?"
"Yes, you need more Net hits than your opponentīs Agility."
"... WTF? Net Hits? That could be, like, 5 or 6?!"
"8 in this case. Dudeīs augmented. Also, keep in mind that you canīt enhance that roll with Edge because you already have to pay 2 Edge to attempt this in the first place."
"...."
"You also donīt deal damage if you hit ;D"
I'm really glad that I'm not the only one who noticed that. So many of the edge actions have such a high bar to actually succeed, cost Edge just to try, have so little effect, and somehow don't do any damage. I'm no marital artist but I think a literal throat punch might be somewhat harmful.
Although this is the game system where a STR 12 troll does the same damage with a battle ax as an anemic Str 1 elf on their death bed...
-
Well remember to keep in mind that 7 or 8 Agility may be the expectation for some PCs... 2 is the average in an NPC's stats. 2 net hits on a mook isn't unreasonable, especially if you maxed out your own Agility....
-
there are actually armor options that do help with damage soak now, although these are a bit gimmicky
Well for the most part the entire rule set is very gimmicky in my opinion. If you are someone who is not into that style then the entire edition is always going to be a hard sell. I myself fall into that category.
Yeah the game as whole feels super gimmicky to me which I am not a fan of. I feel more like I'm paying a deck building game with RPG trappings, so if firing squad doubles down on this it doens't help me much.
-
Well remember to keep in mind that 7 or 8 Agility may be the expectation for some PCs... 2 is the average in an NPC's stats. 2 net hits on a mook isn't unreasonable, especially if you maxed out your own Agility....
Only against weak grunts, though. Grunts are ROUGHLY PR-rating in Agility, so at higher PR ratings, this ability would only be useful against Mages.
-
Yeah the game as whole feels super gimmicky to me which I am not a fan of. I feel more like I'm paying a deck building game with RPG trappings, so if firing squad doubles down on this it doens't help me much.
It really does. Where I will diverge slightly is that I personally do find that Firing Squad was beneficial towards making the system better. Was it enough, no, but we'll see what happens with future expansions. Do to the core mechanics (super gimicky) not being my cup of tea the absolute best view I'll ever be able to have towards it is "The game is alright.".
-
Is there a Jackpoint page in Firing Squad? (from the preview on drivethrurpg it doesn't look like it, but just wanted to confirm). I was curious what game date we were at with this book.
(I'll probably buy Firing Squad eventually, when curiosity overcomes the 'not really needing it currently' factor. But I'm curious about the date now!)
-
No Jackpoint page. I'm not clear on the date.
"I opened up the thread on my host to some trusted
posters whove handled them. 2080 looks like a
potentially wild new year for arms."
"There was a rumor during Seattles sprint for freedom
that the contract would go to Minuteman,
but the firm isnt big enough to handle a metroplex
of that size."
"Ares Arms announced that
the Mad Mamma would become available for limited
sale to preferred and qualified customers
by second-quarter 2081."
If I had to guess, it's end-2080 or barely-start-2081?
-
The most direct reference is on p. 39. When discussing rEVOlution Arms, it says, "2080 looks like a potentially wild new year for arms."
But there are also multiple mentions of things which happened in "early 2080". So mid- or late-2080 are the best fits.
-
Finally got my print copy of Firing Line and gave it a much more in depth read and I figured I would put up my thoughts.
This book doubles down on AR/DR/Edge so if you are driven away by that then save your money. If you have accepted it at some level and want to play anyway, there are things in here which help smooth some of the issues out a little...not much, but every little bit helps at this point.
Book and layout look very nice as always. The binding and cover both appear to be solid. I personally prefer a softcover for these smaller sourcebooks, but that is just a preference. It certainly doesn't feel like it is going to fall apart any time soon. I did notice that the paper seems to be noticeably thinner than the paper used in the CRB and the previous print books. It doesn't appear to be super fragile at this point, but it sure feels lighter.
I didn't notice any particularly glaring errors and the writing (particularly for the rules) appears to be clear and concise. Overall the quality seems to be getting better.
As for the content I would say that there is a good mix of weapons, armor, accessories, etc on offer here in the gear section. There are interesting guns, including special 'lines' of weapons that offer different advantages. The armor is a mixed bag; there is finally armor that reduces DV of incoming attacks, but it is all in the MilSpec realm and not something that you are likely to be using on a day to day basis. I like the expansion of 'socially acceptable' armor which is nice for role playing.
I do admit that I am still not happy by the lack of illustrations for the guns and armor particularly. When there is a picture or drawing then you can buy a piece of equipment because it is 'cool' or matches your characters style. Without this you are just buying a stat line, which is a lot boring-er IMHO. Oh well, artists cost money I suppose.
The accessory section is nice and has some solid choices. Most of them are different ways of affecting AR and DR, but they all seem pretty reasonable and a lot of them could make for interesting role-playing decisions, either visually or as a way to make your favorite gun/armor behave the way you want it.
The 'Honing you Edge' section is a strange one. The first part is a very basic essay on combat that seems unnecessary, and then it is followed by rule for military style squad tactics and related equipment. I don't know how often this comes up on the players side, but I guess it is good to have if someone wants to run that type of team or maybe wants to do a merc or military campaign?
'Sharp Combat' follows and it is contains new edge actions and the martial arts rules. The new edge actions pretty much all fall victim to the core issues with edge, such as why would you use any of these when the 4-edge options in the rulebook exist? A bunch of them inflict various status ailments, cost 4 or 5 edge, require you to get net hits which exceed the target's Agility, and do no damage.....These are pretty questionable and once in a blue moon they might end up being super corner case.
There are also two new edge boosts, and they are also both pretty useless...The 4 edge one allows you to use one martial arts technique you haven't learned. While I sort of like the martial arts techniques, I cannot imagine this ever being better than rerolling all failed dice or adding your Edge to the pool and getting exploding 6's (its almost like they should have nerfed those in one of the errata...hmm)
Martial arts is up next and it is pretty good...they list bunch of styles and then a bunch of techniques you can learn. On first impression all of the techniques look at least somewhat interesting and none appear to be overpowered...nice job! The biggest problem I see is that a new style costs 7 karma and new techniques cost 5. Is it worth it...hmm, could be?
The next chapter is about violence. The first part reads like an 11th grade essay about violence...ugh. They do follow that up with some additional codes of honor, add a new pacifist quality, and expand heat and reputation. This part seems rather good as the heat and reputation section of the CRB were a bit lacking. More good stuff!
The next section is about the effects of violence and violent trauma. I dunno what exactly to think about this one. One one hand I don't hate the idea of bringing up the personal consequences of violence in a game about violence to ground the whole thing. On the other hand I am not so sure about 'gamifying' things like PTSD with dice rolls and such. I know several folks with PTSD both from the military and other sources and it seems odd to think that I have a game book saying that their issues are due to failing a 'resilience test'.
They do add some additional negative qualities and such related to this. I don't know...YMMV. If this does bother you it is easy enough to ignore, if it doesn't then you can add it in...
Then there is a chapter with additional NPC combatants, which is really nice particularly for the GM to reference. More the merrier!
They then finish it up with some summary charts.
Overall, if you are still into SR 6E despite the issues I would say that this one is really worth buying. If you have checked out, then this will do nothing to bring you back.
-
I didn't notice any particularly glaring errors and the writing (particularly for the rules) appears to be clear and concise. Overall the quality seems to be getting better.
This might just be due to not paying attention... I mean, on the first page alone you have:
- The Horizon-Flynn Pilum has two weapon codes, neither of which are labelled.
- The Kami has a "Standard" version, and a "Folding" version which has +1 concealability. There is no difference between the two versions (DV/AR/Avail/Cost).
-
Meh, it's obvious with the Pilum one is a foam replica and the other a real replica.
There's small errors here and there. A weapon not having melee hardened despite its description mentioning it and it making sense with the price, for example. Haven't spotted a really problematic one yet, but still going through things.
-
There are lots of annoyances.
Tomahawks are on page 15 and page 16. Between the two pages, the price goes up 50%, the Availability changes, and the Type changes from Exotic (huh?) to Blades. And don't try to tell me that one is Urban Tribe and the other is Zoé Heritage.
Availability codes are hugely inconsistent. Page 11 is illegal. On pages 12-15, almost everything's legal. On page 16, things start being illegal again. Things are consistently inconsistent throughout the entire weapons section.
-
I don't see illegal stuff on page 11?_? Only (L) gear? And I don't understand the complaint in that illegal, licensed and unrestricted gear intertwines, that's the same in CRB, and in previous editions. Run&Gun melee section had a bunch of Restricted, a Forbidden, unrestricted, restricted again, etc. It's due to the organizing based on weapon type and size. Availabilities also seem to quite match the CRB, so they're quite consistent there. Now Tomahawk-skill changing, that is a good point. But demanding that gear is ordered in Availability makes little sense to me.
Apparently all of the Zoé gear requires a license. Interesting. A lot of them sound rather exotic, and some of the mundane versions were unrestricted in SR5 so it's clearly a deliberate choice.
-
Availability codes are hugely inconsistent. Page 11 is illegal. On pages 12-15, almost everything's legal. On page 16, things start being illegal again. Things are consistently inconsistent throughout the entire weapons section.
I've been playing since 4th edition, and it's always been like that. Things are typically sorted per weapon category, and then alphabetically. You are complaining about something that's been that way for decades.
-
Note that in 2 spots they should have not sorted Alphabetically: Black->Grey->White Knights should have been in reverse order, Charybdis->Scylla also should have been reversed. They're written with references to each other that makes it seem they were written in those reverse orders.
-
There are lots of annoyances.
Tomahawks are on page 15 and page 16. Between the two pages, the price goes up 50%, the Availability changes, and the Type changes from Exotic (huh?) to Blades. And don't try to tell me that one is Urban Tribe and the other is Zoé Heritage.
There are a bunch of "Exotic" weapons that look normal. Combat Boots, Tonfa, Tactical Gladius, Urban Tomahawk, ... I think its done so someone with Exotic Weapons wouldn't have to pick up the Close Combat skill to have a Unarmed/Knife/Sword/Club/Axe option. Just a guess.
-
Yes, there are editing errors (I am literally the last person who will defend the Catalyst run of Shadowrun), but unlike the 6E CRB this is a book I can actually use. I was never left staring at a page just going....'What?'
I mean, I did stare at the edge action page going, 'What?!?' but that was because of how monstrously stupid most of the included actions are. I mean, anyone want to test the theory that a throat punch does no damage....anyone?
Now, is the book based on a foundation of lightly chewed crackers during a hurricane? Absolutely! I would only suggest buying it if you have accepted the many issues with the CRB.
I honestly think I have Stockholm Syndrome after the 6E CRB, which is the worst RPG rulebook since F.A.T.A.L. (come at me, bro!), so when I see a book that is actually halfway competent I cant help but be a bit impressed.
-
Availability codes are hugely inconsistent. Page 11 is illegal. On pages 12-15, almost everything's legal. On page 16, things start being illegal again. Things are consistently inconsistent throughout the entire weapons section.
I've been playing since 4th edition, and it's always been like that. Things are typically sorted per weapon category, and then alphabetically. You are complaining about something that's been that way for decades.
I might not have been clear about my complaint, which was not about alphabetizing lists.
I'll back up. I've been playing since 2E. The early editions (1E-3E) categorized weapons broadly. Small bladed weapon vs. large bladed weapon vs. blunt weapon vs. projectile vs. pistol vs. rifle vs. automatic, and so on. Very granular, like everything in the early editions.
4E and 5E simplified things into legal, restricted, and forbidden. The logic behind the categorization largely mirrored the 1E-3E logic. Small blades (knives) are legal. Large blades (swords, axes) are restricted. Tasers are legal. All pistols are restricted unless they have a silencer, in which case they're forbidden. One can quibble but I think the legalities are reasonably consistent.
6E makes some significant changes. I'll start with the core rulebook. Silencers went from being forbidden to completely legal. Melee weapons - large and small - are now all totally legal. Proudly carry that katana like it's Neo-Tokyo. (Monofilament whips are the exception.)
Hold-outs are now legal. A significant number of weapons went from being forbidden in 5E to Licensed (if that's the expression) in 6E, including weapons with grenade launchers (Ares Alpha, Yamaha Raiden) to machine guns (including RPG HMG)! 6E doesn't really draw the line at Illegal until you get to sniper rifles and assault cannons.
That's all in the core rulebook. Significant changes, but okay, new edition new rules. But now let's see if that logic follows through to Firing Squad:
- Many melee weapons now need a License, including all Heritage melee weapons
- Some weapons which seem functionally identical (Cougar Collapsible Staff/Spear vs. Dassault Alpenstock) have different legalities
- The Colt Special Agent light pistol is legal and doesn't need a license
- Some HMGs are Licensed (like in the core book), some are now Illegal
- Arrows need a License but bows are legal (the reverse of the core book)
This is the inconsistency I'm talking about. Chandra is giving the writers the benefit of the doubt by saying, "The legality of the Heritage Line must be intentional." To me it suggests that different sections had different writers and that no single person (an editor, perhaps) read everything and considered it all together, and not just within Firing Squad itself but also between the core rulebook and Firing Squad.
There are a bunch of "Exotic" weapons that look normal. Combat Boots, Tonfa, Tactical Gladius, Urban Tomahawk, ... I think its done so someone with Exotic Weapons wouldn't have to pick up the Close Combat skill to have a Unarmed/Knife/Sword/Club/Axe option. Just a guess.
An interesting thought. My counter-argument would be that Exotic Weapons are not defaultable, so you can't use them untrained. The rule book's description of the skill is, "Some weapons are not like any other, and you need particular training to use them." None of that logic seems to apply to Hobbes' excellent list, which includes footwear, a club, a sword, and a hatchet. I think the Exotic skill is being assigned much too frequently and should be reserved for entanglement weapons (whips, chains) and the real oddballs (like the Charybdis or, presumably, the Scylla, which currently has a weapon type of 'Scylla').
-
There are lots of annoyances.
Tomahawks are on page 15 and page 16. Between the two pages, the price goes up 50%, the Availability changes, and the Type changes from Exotic (huh?) to Blades. And don't try to tell me that one is Urban Tribe and the other is Zoé Heritage.
There are a bunch of "Exotic" weapons that look normal. Combat Boots, Tonfa, Tactical Gladius, Urban Tomahawk, ... I think its done so someone with Exotic Weapons wouldn't have to pick up the Close Combat skill to have a Unarmed/Knife/Sword/Club/Axe option. Just a guess.
exotic weapons need to die in a fire.
-
Hello,
I am not a native speaker and I would need advice on translating the name "Firing Squad". Did that really mean a "group of soldiers carrying out the execution"? Or is it a metaphor?
-
Yeah, execution by Firing Squad is when someone is tied up and the group of soldiers is given the simultaneous order to open fire. One of the reasons to have a full squad fire, is so nobody knows who fired the killing bullet(s). Sometimes they even used some blanks for that purpose. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Execution_by_firing_squad
Pegasus Spiel made the translated title "Feuer Frei", aka Fire at will, which is the order given to the firing squad.
-
There also is the metaphorical aspect to the term "firing squad"... but when you call a group a firing squad you are implying they have a degree of lethality or brutality of a literal firing squad.
-
I have another question. In the Firing Squad, an electronic firing system is mentioned for some weapons. However, this modification is not described anywhere. So what exactly does in 6E do?
EDIT: I found on the internet what it did in 5E, but what does it do in 6E? What are the statistics?
-
I have another question. In the Firing Squad, an electronic firing system is mentioned for some weapons. However, this modification is not described anywhere. So what exactly does in 6E do?
EDIT: I found on the internet what it did in 5E, but what does it do in 6E? What are the statistics?
I want to say that anything that could potentially have a wireless bonus has one of these. I think this is more for flavor in 6e. It's not referring to smartguns, since it talks about both electronic firing and smartguns.
In the description for the Colt Government 2076/Manhunter:
The years of technomancer and hacker fear since the 60s have left the electronic firing 2066 in a lot of
storage cabinets for fear of hacking. The 2076 takes a jump back to the style of the classic Manhunter (in fact, the model with an integrated smartgun system has that denotation) and comes with an integral laser sight.
I haven't played 5e for awhile and didn't really play it much when I did, so it's possible that the "intent" for electronic firing systems is different than just flavor. If so, they didn't include the rules for it.
Gameplay-wise, I would say only be concerned with whether wireless is on/off with regards to hacking. If you wanted to, you could say that repairing weapons with electronic systems require an electronics roll instead of engineering, but that's going into GM-fiat territory.
-
I have another question. In the Firing Squad, an electronic firing system is mentioned for some weapons. However, this modification is not described anywhere. So what exactly does in 6E do?
EDIT: I found on the internet what it did in 5E, but what does it do in 6E? What are the statistics?
Yes, it's my understanding that's just fluff. All guns in 2081 are electronic firing, unless they're museum pieces.
-
thank you for answer