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Technomancer feedback for a new book!

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tytalan

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« Reply #165 on: <06-23-15/2126:41> »
Okay I did not read the whole thread so I do not know if anyone else has said this if so I am adding my vote.
1: first off I agree with everyone else they do seem hard to build and play as a useful member of the team and improving their basic ability is something that need to be done.  I am surprised that they are getting their own book I expected half of Datatrials to be devoted to them.
2:  One thing that surprises me is that there seems to be no rules for Technomancer Riggers the fluff seems to suggest that this should be possible but that as far as things go.  I could just see a Technorigger instead of remotely controlling drones using sprites. 

That just my 2 cents I liked the O's in 3rd and I just started running 5th, did not care for 4th, and I thought the fact no O's were Riggers made no sense and it makes less with the fluff for Technomancers,

dezmont

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« Reply #166 on: <06-23-15/2128:30> »
A thought: would allowing Technomancers to reorder their mental attributes for their living persona make a difference in terms of playability?

Not really. All the stats are in the right place, but the fact that living persona is based entirely off stats that go 1-6, where 5 is an extremely high stat makes technos ridiculously stat dependant.

Technomancers still live and die by willpower, which also determines firewall, a stat that is important to stay high.

Logic determines sprite limit, and also matrix initiative, and on top of that is important for all of cybercombat and for getting marks when hacking.

Intuition determines sleaze, which is important to have at a respectable level sure and if that was moved to willpower might reduce some classic D&D style MAD, if not for the fact all second tier hacking actions involving sleaze depend on intuition anyway.

Charisma is the only real place technos can dump, both because the attack stat is arguably the least important one for them as they will never be as good as a regular decker anyway, and because charisma has no interaction with hacking.

The problem is that in order to have a remotely respectable living persona you need 5 in 3 stats, and even doing that you are going to be running a sub-par headdeck compared to a decker who can with very little investment hit 9 in a matrix stat of their choice just using programs and deck modifications.

Basically technomancers need better low cost ways to increase their living persona besides echoes in order to help reduce their crippling dependency on ridiculous attributes that don't even let them match a deck.

Triskavanski

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« Reply #167 on: <06-23-15/2157:10> »
I wouldn't go so far to say that it has to be non-echo ways of increasing their biodeck, but it dang well needs to be better than what we got. 13+ karma to increase a matrix stat by a single point is not very good in the slightest. If some how the submersion stayed 13 all the way through, just to increase all four stats 1 point, would be 52 karma. In nuyen terms (Based on character creation) this is 104.000  nuyen. And I didn't include the increased cost of 3 karma per level.


Though.. On the other hand, I guess I did go as far to say that it shouldn't be an echo, with one of my technomancer houserules where you got 1 matrix point stat, per 2 resonance, making you  able to add a little more around in places.
Concepts are great, but implementation sucks. Why not improve it?

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Darzil

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« Reply #168 on: <06-24-15/0458:30> »
If Technomancers had toys (like Mages do) to reduce Complex Form sustaining penalties then Infusion of X would be pretty good ways on improving their living persona. I think they also need ways to reduce Fade values (or fade values hit with a hammer), as the current ones are a little crazy.

Personally I'd like more concentration on making Complex Forms viable, and less on trying to hack like a Decker at the same cost as a Decker.

Finstersang

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« Reply #169 on: <06-24-15/1109:40> »
If you compare Threading to Spellcasting, things are just obviously out of balance.

Scope of usability: Much Smaller (as long as you don´t play a pure matrix campaign, but who does that?)
Drain (pardon, Fading): Mostly higher up to the point of making many CFs useless. Resisted by Willpower + Resonance, which can be raised higher than 6 with Submersion eventually. Then again, mages have Centering, fetishes and Reagents.
Sources for Bonus Dice: Except for Edge and registered Sprites, none. No Mentor Spirits,  no Foci, and explicitly(!) not even the bonus from Hot-Sim. Specialisation only for one CF and not for a group or "school".
Cost: Both 5 Karma. Nevertheless, TMs get only half the number of CF as a mage get in spells when build with Sum to 10, because there aren´t just enough to really give you a choice reasons.
 
« Last Edit: <06-24-15/1111:47> by Finstersang »

Triskavanski

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« Reply #170 on: <06-24-15/1420:56> »
Cfs actually cost 4 karma
Concepts are great, but implementation sucks. Why not improve it?

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noddy_93

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« Reply #171 on: <06-25-15/0551:35> »
Hello, I like the ideas in here. Especially that Complex Form that forces devices into wireless mode.
I was also thinking if it would help if sprites and technomancer would share their marks.
 

bravelybravesirrobin

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« Reply #172 on: <06-25-15/0858:16> »
Lots of good ideas in here so far but a lot of complaining about the set-up for TM’s in the core rulebook. That won’t change and the TM book isn’t going to errata the core to do things like adjust fade, give out free abilities or change the priority system.

Basically any fixes we want have to come from additions in the form of:

New complex forms
New qualities
New echoes
New sprites
Other new stuff

Also imho the design space that TM’s occupy is that what Deckers do with tech, they do with their brain. There’s a connection between their meatspace body and the matrix that nobody else experiences and so they should sort of blur the world between matrix and meatspace more.  So rather than more ways to be better deckers, which just steps on the deckers design space, I’d like to see more extrapolations of their abilities in new and creative ways.

New complex forms

I’d like to see TM’s be able to use the matrix to boost their skills and intelligence.  Basically they thread some code which feeds information on a subject directly into their brain. The way I envisage this working is the techno threads a script that say, searches out how to speak Italian and inputs it into his brain’s language centres directly.

This would easily work for languages (learning the CF lets you know every language but you have to thread it each time you need to speak a language you don’t inherently know) and seems to make sense for knowledge skills but I’m not sure how you’d do that mechanically.

I also think it would work for certain active skills. Not the matrix ones or things like climbing and swimming but definitely the social skills and even things like unarmed combat (Woah! I know Kung Fu). You can argue something like unarmed combat requires muscle memory and training rather than purely knowing intellectually what to do but I think it works and lets Technos do something Deckers can’t, cast complex forms to buff their meat world activity.

From a balance perspective it would work similar to a mage’s increase attribute but is inherently weaker since you’d need a form per skill rather than having an attribute that works with many skills.

I’ll echo others in wanting to see some kind of smartlink CF and a CF that makes you invisible/inaudible to devices.

We also need some CFs for interacting with drones although I’m sure what you’d give them that doesn’t step on a rigger’s toes.

A CF that lets you turn wireless on/off from devices close to you in meatspace using the resonance seems appropriately scary and fluffy.

Some kind of gremlin CF that lets you brick devices you’re touching.

Ways to do biofeedback and link lock.

A CF that works similar to assenssing, but for cyberware. Letting a TM looks at someone and just know what kind of cyberware they have fitted.

New Qualities/Echoes

A lot of the ideas people have given in this thread for fixing fundamental TM issues could be implemented as either qualities or echoes. Things like having some ability to sustain more complex forms, immunity to hotsim addiction, reducing fade values, skinlink as a quality at chargen rather than a karma expensive echo.

I will echo the people that want to see the TM able to make passes in both meatspace and on matrix initiative during combat. Again it really fits the fluff and gives TMs something deckers can’t do without just straight up making them better deckers. I think this makes most sense as an echo.

New Sprites

Some kind of piloting sprite to possess and operate drones seems like something everybody wants. It lets TMs interact with drones (which we all want) but in a very different way to riggers.

Other new stuff

So TMs work a lot like mages, draw inspiration from mages and give them TM equivalents of foci and magical lodges.

Foci (lets call them widgets) lets you fix So Many TM issues. Both the direct fix of reducing fade, having more dice to thread forms/compile sprites and more options for sustaining forms and the indirect issue that TMs have nothing to spend Nuyen on. Like mages, TMs need Karma and have more money than they know what to do with. Widgets would let them spend that money to offset some (but not all) of the karma issues.

The main widgets I’d like to see would be; more dice for threading, more dice for compiling/registering, a way to sustain forms and a way to reduce fade. A general power widget would also work.

The tricks with widgets are how they would work fluff wise and to give them the same disadvantages as foci to prevent abuse (briefly, they cost karma, they can get lost, they form a link back to you, you can get addicted and there are hard limits on how many you can use).

Fluff wise I’d envisage these widgets as things made of the resonance, permanent bits of code that can’t be copied directly by anything except the most powerful TMs or A.I.s (you could give PC TM’s this ability as an echo) because of their complexity and because of their nature as seemingly part of the matrix itself. Powerful TMs set themselves up copying/growing these widgets and sell them to other TMs in illegal TM only hosts.

I’d also give TMs magical lodges or tiny hosts made in the same fashion. They can pay money to buy a small private host that’s weaker than the ones you’d normally go up against but which the TM has a safe space to compile sprites in, thread forms and keep his widgets.

Because as a balance I’d make it so that if the TM reboots his persona, he loses his widget unless he first stored it safe in his host. Say he goes on a run, gets mobbed by IC and reboots to escape. He leaves behind a bit of code which is linked to his living persona, so when he goes back into the matrix he knows straight away where his widget is to go and retrieve it but any IC or spiders that find his widget know exactly where he is the moment he reappears.

DeathStrobe

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« Reply #173 on: <06-25-15/1025:59> »
I totally agree with bravelybravesirrobin, because everything they said is what I've said.

Though, I'm not sure about TM hosts. I wanted a TM to be able to effect the resonance noise level of an area by setting up a resonance well, but on the other hand a host might be easier to explain mechanically and people do want rules to make hosts, so to make hosts and TM magic lodges one in the same, might be extremely cool. It also adds to the mysterious nature of how hosts work. Okay, I can get behind that.

Anyway, I've also been thinking of other nuyen sinks for TMs. Reagents are a good sink for mages, how about if we can have TMs burn out electronics to do the same thing. Instead of creating a new resource we just use what's already in the game, RFID tags. While RFID tags are WAY cheaper then reagents, fade values are WAY higher then drain values. So to offset insane fade values if TMs had easier and cheaper access to their "reagent" like resource it'd help offset that. Its also cool.

Herr Brackhaus

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« Reply #174 on: <06-25-15/1148:31> »
I like the idea of burning out electronics to power their abilities; similar to blood magic, but (probably) much less reviled unless the piece of electronics they are burning out just happens to be housing an AI at the time :D

bravelybravesirrobin

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« Reply #175 on: <06-25-15/1229:31> »
Rather than straight RFID tags maybe RFID tags with something (pure resonance?) stored on them. So they can be costed appropriately. Buy them from other TMs or A.I.s that are kind of farming the matrix for resonance and ahve loaded it onto the tags or they can go out and gather it themselves using an existing skill simialr to how mages can gather re-agents.

I don't find reagents to be a terribly effective mechanic though so I wouldn't encourage copying them too directly.


Triskavanski

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« Reply #176 on: <06-25-15/1246:44> »
I had something like that, where they could form a techno pan thing, and use other electronics to increase thier ability to mitigate fade. The down side was devices used in this fashion take damage as well from the fade,
Concepts are great, but implementation sucks. Why not improve it?

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tytalan

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« Reply #177 on: <06-25-15/1504:28> »
I beginning to think bravelybravesirrobin is right the fixes can be handle with out a rewrite of the rules just by adding things.
On another thought I been reading the Echoes and I miss "Daemon Summoning"  Please bring it back.


jack0byte

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« Reply #178 on: <06-26-15/0857:40> »
Hi all I just wanted to put in my thoughts I'm really liking where this is going and have real hope this book is going to be brilliant  ;D

first I just wanted to suggest a new quality hopefully fairly cheep that would let a tecnomancer gain the effect of a limited selection of echos things like Skinlink MMRI etc. I fell this would give techno more Identity out of creation as I often find myself having to build a techno with the expectation of getting one of these especially when trying to make a build for using drones   

I would just like to add to bravelybravesirrobin's list of places for fixes to include streams and paragons
I think that streams would be particularly suited for this as they have not yet appeared in this edition so no rules have been set it would be a comparatively simple thing to give them as a free option so not making any potential fix another karma sink each
stream could gain access to some of the existing CFs that a thematic for that stream  but at lower drain gain or any number of other fixes

lastly the thing I would like to see most is a digital equivalent of allay spirets I think this would let you give you the opportunity to get the most out of the fluff of the unique tenomancer ability of sprites with out being a pet class

korusef

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« Reply #179 on: <06-26-15/1355:54> »
TMs need a way to mitigate non-distance related noise.
If datajack stacking is allowed, there should be a way for TMs to have similar benefit without prohibitive karma or fading cost.