[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

ScytheKnight, I'd like you to go back and take a look at the karma cost of a) the Resonance attribute, and b) increasing Submersion costs.  It's already costly enough, considering the hit faced by technomancers and, yes, mages - because by the time you're hitting your 'full stride' at a point where you're finally really going to surpass others, you're paying twenty and more points for an Initiation/Submersion despite all the add-ons, and 50+ karma for the attribute to make it stick - or for you to be able to initiate yet once more.

'Diminishing returns' does not even begin to cover how diminished the returns are.

[ScytheKnight]

This is true... was really only offering it as a suggestion to counter the 'unlimited potential' factor.

[Triskavanski]

IMO a Technomancer should have unlimited potential, like how a Mystic Adept does. Should be a bit slow, of course, to go down the ultimate power route, leaving you open in other areas, but one point of a matrix stat per echo is a bit too slow IMO. Eventually right now, Deckers will go far above and beyond Technomancers, having a higher matrix attribute potential than Technomancers, especially with that paladin netting up at 9, 9, 8, 8

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

'Unlimited Potential' is a straw man too - because at that same point, you're paying a whole boatload of karma to get the next point of Resonance so that you are allowed to acquire the next level of Submersion.  If I'm spending 30 points on a Submersion (31 for Grade 7), I'll also be spending at least 35 points on the attribute to match (6 Resonance to 7).  That's 66 points of karma - enough to raise a skill from 0 to 7, with 10 karma left over, or three skills from 10 to 11.  The technomancer gets one Submersion out of it, and an extra die here and there.  The other guy arguably gets a hell of a lot more.

When you get to a certain point of initiation, etc. it becomes a pretty damn steep curve, and the other non-mage/technomancer people are going up here, there, and yon while you're saving up to buy that attribute so you can buy that grade.

"Unlimited Potential" is not functionally true.

[UnLimiTeD]

Ok, I know I suggested that myself some page ago, as did others, but the more I think about it, the less an Echo to reduce Essence cost seems appropriate.
There's an Adept way specializing on tech, and if want that tech inside you, you still have to pay.
Having the TM increase the function of the gear, however, remains attractive.
If the Echo for Skillwires returns, maybe allow the option to add it's level to the rating of existing skillwires, if present, instead of granting them themselves?
This would actually allow a TM to get skill wires above level 6, should he sacrifice essence, submerge, and probably get another echo to raise the effect of the skillsofts plain not available in that rating. Don't tell me that's OP. ^^
As for improving one's own Cyberarm, maybe just a Complex Form that lasts a specific duration and takes the "redline" rules from arsenal, minus the damage to the ware.
Could last longer or give bonus dice if it's the TMs own gear.

Edit: I was reading through the FAQ thread of this very forum to find clarification for the issue here (some clarification in a TM-centric book might not hurt), and I found just using the print function top right and serching for "Technomancer" provides a trove of information on the problems people have with the 'class'.

[Finstersang]

Changing the existing Echoes to granting +[Submersion Grade/2, round up] on the Living Persona Attributes/Program Slots seems fair, but don´t overdue it: Pro Deckers with Heavy Cyberdecks should be the more "beefy" Hackers. So take a step away from balancing issues and the ol´ numbers game. Instead, try to give Technomancers more versatility and unique Tricks and not just some Complex Forms that practically just let you do Decker Stuff with added (and way too high!) Fading Damage.

Resonance is basically "Matrix Magic", so don´t hold yourself up with thoughts like "OMG, why should this work ?!". Its the Resonance, thats why! The Matrix itself is a bit of a wonder, and the Resonance is a wonder born out of that wonder. So give us some wonders: Things that logically shouldn´t work, but somehow do. Things that make smug, strictly logical Deckers jaws drop (at least for a short moment) and that give Technomancers ways of dealing with things really differently.

My Example / Proposal: A set of Komplex Forms that force Devices into the Matrix and lock them in Wireless mode as long as the Form is sustained (given that they are no throwbacks, of course). Maybe one that works on touch, one on sight, one as an AOE around the Technomancer.

Voila, there you have have it: A little wonder! Something a Decker cant do, because technically it should be impossible. Something that gives Mancers new tactics, alone and teamed up with other Hackers.  And also something that justifies the public fear of Techomancers, because now, if you want to safely run against Mancers, just shutting of Wireless functionality may not be enough. I´d love to imagine Coporate Technomancer Hunting Squads that go all Sticks´n Rocks when going after their prey.

Yes, it would be a game-changer, but lets face it: That´s what TMs need.

[korusef]

My Example / Proposal: A set of Komplex Forms that force Devices into the Matrix and lock them in Wireless mode as long as the Form is sustained (given that they are no throwbacks, of course). Maybe one that works on touch, one on sight, one as an AOE around the Technomancer.

Voila, there you have have it: A little wonder! Something a Decker cant do, because technically it should be impossible. Something that gives Mancers new tactics, alone and teamed up with other Hackers.  And also something that justifies the public fear of Techomancers, because now, if you want to safely run against Mancers, just shutting of Wireless functionality may not be enough. I´d love to imagine Coporate Technomancer Hunting Squads that go all Sticks´n Rocks when going after their prey.

Technically GI/GO from Data Trails lets you rewire the "Turn Off Wireless" to something else, preventing it that way. Of course you should also GI/GO the "Reboot" action as well to stop them from fixing it that way.

[Finstersang]

My Example / Proposal: A set of Komplex Forms that force Devices into the Matrix and lock them in Wireless mode as long as the Form is sustained (given that they are no throwbacks, of course). Maybe one that works on touch, one on sight, one as an AOE around the Technomancer.

Voila, there you have have it: A little wonder! Something a Decker cant do, because technically it should be impossible. Something that gives Mancers new tactics, alone and teamed up with other Hackers.  And also something that justifies the public fear of Techomancers, because now, if you want to safely run against Mancers, just shutting of Wireless functionality may not be enough. I´d love to imagine Coporate Technomancer Hunting Squads that go all Sticks´n Rocks when going after their prey.

Technically GI/GO from Data Trails lets you rewire the "Turn Off Wireless" to something else, preventing it that way. Of course you should also GI/GO the "Reboot" action as well to stop them from fixing it that way.

Thanks, but my fokus here is on actually turning Wireless on through the power of Resonance only (no Matrix connection needed, thats why I´m calling it a "wonder") and then putting the device in a kind of link-lock.
Dackers can use the Lockdown programm or Garbage in/Garbage out to lock stuff in the Matrix, but they can´t switch a Smargun to wireless mode just by looking at it. 

But the lock effect is still important, of course: Spending a Complex Action and risking Fading would not be worth it if the target can easily switch wireless back off. 

[DeathStrobe]

A Resonance Direct Link complex form would be awesome. This way you aren't forced to take the skinlink echo, instead you have to waste a complex action, resist some fading, and sustain the resonance link. This gives you a direct connection to a device regardless of if it's a throwback, wireless off, or other miscellaneous nonsense that screws hackers in general.

How terrifying would it be for all those luddites out there who think running with wireless off keeps them safe to still be hacked by a TM.

[Finstersang]

That´s the thought here 

As long as it´s not a 100% Throwback (like an old Ruger SWH completely stripped off the electronic parts or, lets say, a rock or a pointed stick), nothing would be 100% save from the TMs Grasp.

Strong, but still in balanced IMO: A good Decker would need a Data Tap (or induction Pad) and physical contact to the inner wirings for this, but he most likely has some Augmentations (or even Adept Powers), his beefy Cyberdeck and more "mundane" Skills like Stealth / Social Engineering on his side. And keep this in mind: A Mage could also toggle wireless disabled devices from a distance using Magic Fingers (or its owner via control spells) . We´re not talking about a game-breaking feature here, this is something another "paranormal" and not-so-much-of-a-Hacker character class can already do.

[grauetheorie]

I very much like the idea that technomancers can force devices to turn wireless on. Personally I prefer two ideas. First, a complex form which is sustained and as long as it is sustained it forces every device in a given radius to have WIFI enabled. Or second, a complex form that sends a burst of resonance, which forces every device to have WIFI enabled for 1 combat turn per hit.

Also I would like to see an echo (e.g. Sleepwalker) that requires the echo Sleepwaker. This echo could allow a Technomancer to take one action phase during a combat turn in the meat world while he is in VR. In essence, a Technomancer could always be in VR, and have initiative according to it, but still perceive the meat world and interact with it.

Both ideas would make the Technomancer quite distinct from a Decker. Deckers can keep their flexibility at hacking while the Technomancer receive also flexibility in an other area.

I do not like to give Technomancers the same tools a decker has. Both should be really different in how they play and what their strengths and weaknesses are.

[Triskavanski]

Well in a lot of ways, A decker's main strength over technomancers would be a superb flexibility. They can load the right programs for the job, and shift around their matrix stats. A Technomancer on the other hand is like a lumbering giant. As they rise in power they'll be exceedingly stronger than a decker, but they won't necessarily have the flexibility a decker could.

[UnLimiTeD]

Or the hacking skills, because most people don't play that long.
Unless that book drastically shifts the balance of power.

[Beta-Max]

Well in a lot of ways, A decker's main strength over technomancers would be a superb flexibility. They can load the right programs for the job, and shift around their matrix stats. A Technomancer on the other hand is like a lumbering giant. As they rise in power they'll be exceedingly stronger than a decker, but they won't necessarily have the flexibility a decker could.

Trisk, in concept i always felt it should be the other way around. In SR4, Technomancers were the flexibility KINGS! I felt sometimes if you excuse the severely crude analogy, that a Decker would fit a square peg into a round hole using a hammer, while the technomancer would simply warp the shape until it fit. I think a huge part of the reason technomancers are feeling a little lost is because of the DRASTIC way the SR4 to SR5 altered how hacking and running the matrix works.

The fluff always portrayed them with far more finesse then a Decker, so maybe if we can find a way to bring some of that back. Let TM's bend the rules, like being on multiple grids at once, stretch the matrix to the point of breaking to give them the loopholes needed to have the edge over a Decker who is constrained by the limits of his own technology.

[Triskavanski]

Well, the fact that Deckers can shift easily between meat and matrix, and shift around how they function on the matrix is always going to allow them to be more flexible than technomancers.

That starts Deckers on the path of fexilibity, while technomancers can only do the basic matrix actions or a handful of complex forms. A TM could become more flexible depending on how so depending on how certain CFs are treated, but he wouldn't have the flexibility of a decker still. IN addition to not being able to load programs, switch matrix attributes, or easily flip flop between matrix and meat, other things that make them more single effecting is the fact that so many CFs are one function. Stitches can only repair sprites. Tattletell only works on very specific targets. Resonance Channel just lowers a bit of the distance for noise.


After a massive amount of karma expenditure however, Technomancers would become a bit more capable than deckers in the matrix, due to having a lot more of everything. They jsut gotta live that long.