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Technomancer feedback for a new book!

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Triskavanski

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« Reply #120 on: <06-08-15/1715:00> »

@Triskavanski - They could, but how likely is it that they would? I'm pretty sure entering the Resonance Realms and Submerging requires entering VR. I suppose you could have that be the only times they use VR in order to reduce the risk, making the risk then more comparable to a mage using foci, but it basically means that a unique part of your character - the built in hot-sim module all Techno's have - is all but unusable. You might as well build an AR decker - in which case Mages and Adepts make better AR deckers.


Hot-Sim simsense only has a threshold of one, so the risk of addiction is pretty low and a PC would likely edge out of a flubbed roll anyway, making the whole exercise onerous and mostly pointless. You may as well just roll up front 131 times for the next 20 years of your character's career and with your .23% (or less - that's from 15 dice which should be the lower bound of a Techno's Willpower+Logic+Resonance) chance of failure you might run into ONE failure, which you'd just reroll with edge.


In short, I don't think it adds anything to the game other than some needless bookkeeping and dice rolling. Unless the player WANTS to have an addiction to VR...

@Marcus - I like that.


Hmm well youve got a good point there actually.

Never really thought abot the book keeping parts of it. Perhaps in addition to the immunity move the bonus to uv ?
Concepts are great, but implementation sucks. Why not improve it?

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Marcus

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« Reply #121 on: <06-08-15/1848:32> »

How do you plan to pay for that cybergear?  Most every build I have seen has Resources E for 6K..

1 pt worth of gear isn't a huge price tag, even with resources E between starting karma to cash and if need the indebt quality you can probubly raise the cash for something useful, my guess is fairly equal split between cyber-eyes w/ smartlink and data jack, and a cyber arm will be the most common 2 selected load outs. Keeping in mind it's something you can spend money on once you get started.

I'm not saying it's a perfect solution but it should do what's needed without overturning the apple cart as it were.
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Beta-Max

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« Reply #122 on: <06-09-15/1038:22> »
Quote
Hmm well youve got a good point there actually.

Never really thought abot the book keeping parts of it. Perhaps in addition to the immunity move the bonus to uv ?

Finally Trisk sees th VR addiction immunity light!

wmkertz

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« Reply #123 on: <06-09-15/1131:12> »
Be cautious about what you give to technomancers but not to deckers.  The balance between two concepts has been a tangled mess since technomancers made their first appearance.  A few tweaks either way could easily result in one completely eclipsing the other.

The previous edition of the game ended up inadvertently tipping that balance.  If somebody wanted to play a dedicated hacker, it made almost no sense to play a decker.  Either you went techno, or you bought an agent and invested your precious karma elsewhere.

From a mechanics perspective I'd like to see to their strength and weaknesses converge, making the difference between them more about narrative flavor, rather than further segregating their potential.  The Matrix has too much a niche appeal to split the players that it appeals to.

I've been running a campaign with a few house rules to give each the same versatility.  Technomancers can network a pan through their living personas and get a sustainable complex form that emulates a device that can run a number of programs equal to it's force.  Deckers on the other hand can use complex forms in the guise of viruses and hot patches, where the drain is doubled to becomes an availability pool rolled against them as they try to program it.  I tried to make a parallel between virus to complex forms and alchemical preparations to spells.
« Last Edit: <06-09-15/1137:07> by wmkertz »

UnLimiTeD

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« Reply #124 on: <06-09-15/1509:11> »
I thought about a way to create a technomancer equivalent to adepts and so far, no luck.
But how about this:
Quote
Negative Quality:
Physical Aspect
Cost: -5 Karma
You take a 3 Penalty to compiling and registering 2 Penalty to your Cybercombat Skillgroup(Alternatively "You can't register Sprites", or any other penalty that makes either acting in the matrix or being a TM a bit more difficult),
but you get 1 free Echo from the list below. This doesn't count as a Submersion.

Imagine a List here.
Said list could include things like Pain Editor and Reflex Wire Echos, or an Echo that grants a small Essence rebate (Say 0.2 +0.1 per Submersion only for Alpha+ Cyberware and Cultureware), or one that grants a bonus to martial arts used with smartlinked weapons.
Thoughts?

...
And thinking about it, if a Technomancer can naturally interface with the matrix to the point he can use "biowires" of wireless data to practically replace his nerve connections, would it fit the fluff to have an Echo that allows a Technomancer to use Resonance for physical tasks, like, say, soaking stun damage, or perceiving in meatspace?

Edit: Changed suggested Quality.
Edit2: Just thought about a Fluff Piece:
What about an Echo, CF, or Quality that allows a TM to temporarily boost his power, the same way an Adept can? F.Ex. Resonance Boost. It would allow for some awe inspiring feats from an otherwise subpar Technomancer, should someone choose to specialize in that.
Example:
Quote
Positive Quality:
Resonant Defender
Cost: 6/9 Karma
When going into full Defense, the Character can add her Resonance instead of her Willpower to her Defense.
For 9 Karma, this also applies to Full Matrix Defense.
« Last Edit: <06-10-15/1349:59> by UnLimiTeD »
Still waiting on a Vector-Thrust Liminal Body.

Triskavanski

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« Reply #125 on: <06-09-15/1621:51> »
Quote
Hmm well youve got a good point there actually.

Never really thought abot the book keeping parts of it. Perhaps in addition to the immunity move the bonus to uv ?

Finally Trisk sees th VR addiction immunity light!

Not at all, i see the pointless book keeping light.
Concepts are great, but implementation sucks. Why not improve it?

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Hobbes

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« Reply #126 on: <06-09-15/1651:47> »
Be cautious about what you give to technomancers but not to deckers.  The balance between two concepts has been a tangled mess since technomancers made their first appearance.  A few tweaks either way could easily result in one completely eclipsing the other.

Currently Deckers are a couple of dice better at most every Hacking skill out of Chargen, and the Techno never really catches up without some seriously silly Sprite assistance.  And most Technomancers are bottom of heap in the meat world.  Sprites make up for it a bit, but it's a lot of bookeeping, and it's a very specific play style that not everyone likes.   

My #1 hope for any technomancer supplement would be mechanical parity with other Archetypes without having to be a pet class, and without breaking the pet class. 

Marcus

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« Reply #127 on: <06-09-15/1710:54> »
The previous edition of the game ended up inadvertently tipping that balance.  If somebody wanted to play a dedicated hacker, it made almost no sense to play a decker.  Either you went techno, or you bought an agent and invested your precious karma elsewhere.

From a mechanics perspective I'd like to see to their strength and weaknesses converge, making the difference between them more about narrative flavor, rather than further segregating their potential.  The Matrix has too much a niche appeal to split the players that it appeals to.

In the last edition, you were basically better of letting an agent do all hacking regardless. That was an edition failure not class balance issue.

I've been running a campaign with a few house rules to give each the same versatility.  Technomancers can network a pan through their living personas and get a sustainable complex form that emulates a device that can run a number of programs equal to it's force.  Deckers on the other hand can use complex forms in the guise of viruses and hot patches, where the drain is doubled to becomes an availability pool rolled against them as they try to program it.  I tried to make a parallel between virus to complex forms and alchemical preparations to spells.

Well if you have functional house rules that fix techno please put'em up here in mechanical detail. Can you please explain that last sentence in detail, what did these things do?
« Last Edit: <06-09-15/1756:49> by Marcus »
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Triskavanski

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« Reply #128 on: <06-09-15/2025:13> »
Weren't adepts like, the 4e hackers of choice as well?

Be cautious about what you give to technomancers but not to deckers.  The balance between two concepts has been a tangled mess since technomancers made their first appearance.  A few tweaks either way could easily result in one completely eclipsing the other.

Currently Deckers are a couple of dice better at most every Hacking skill out of Chargen, and the Techno never really catches up without some seriously silly Sprite assistance.  And most Technomancers are bottom of heap in the meat world.  Sprites make up for it a bit, but it's a lot of bookeeping, and it's a very specific play style that not everyone likes.   

My #1 hope for any technomancer supplement would be mechanical parity with other Archetypes without having to be a pet class, and without breaking the pet class. 



But yeah, what Hobbs says here. While Technomancers are not exactly garbage fromt he start, the fact that a Decker needs really 4 skills, while Technomancers need at least 5, or 7 if they're going to use sprites, puts Technomancers back a bit.

Deckers can easily boost their Log, with no real loss, resulting in greater pools of dice for most matrix actions. They can also get programs and the like, as well as higher limits faster than technomancers. The Technomancer has a bottleneck in karma usage, because there is so much to get.

I've also been developing a lot of my own house rules too, Mostly with things that  i feel are cool concepts, but either poorly designed (Changelings) or lacking (technomancers.)
Concepts are great, but implementation sucks. Why not improve it?

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wmkertz

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« Reply #129 on: <06-10-15/0938:03> »

I've been running a campaign with a few house rules to give each the same versatility.  Technomancers can network a pan through their living personas and get a sustainable complex form that emulates a device that can run a number of programs equal to it's force.  Deckers on the other hand can use complex forms in the guise of viruses and hot patches, where the drain is doubled to becomes an availability pool rolled against them as they try to program it.  I tried to make a parallel between virus to complex forms and alchemical preparations to spells.

Well if you have functional house rules that fix techno please put'em up here in mechanical detail. Can you please explain that last sentence in detail, what did these things do?

If you want the specifics this is what I introduced.  Technos got the following complex forms:

Living Network
Target: Persona
Duration: Sustained
Fade: L+1

Uses the resonance to funnel Matrix activity through the technomancer's Living Persona.  Make a Software + Resonance [Level] test, for every hit the technomancer may slave 3 devices to their Living Persona as long as this form is sustained.

Living OS
Target: Persona
Duration: Sustained
Fade: L+1

The complex form creates a virtual system around the technomancer's Living Persona capable of running programs and holding files without any real world presence, similar to hosts.  Make a Software + Resonance [Level] test, for every hit on this test the technomancer receives a program slot that they may use to load any files or programs except for agents.

And deckers get the following:

Infect
Complex Action
Marks Required: 3
Infect an Icon with malicious code.  Infecting a system is an opposed test, Hacking + Logic [Sleaze] vs Intuition + Firewall.  If successful the code is implanted and will remain in place for a number of minutes equal to any net hits on that test.  After that time the system's firewall will have adapted to the virus rendering it ineffective.

Preparing a Virus
Viruses are based on complex forms that can be considered detrimental to their target.  First choose a complex form you intend to copy, then select what rating (level) virus you wish to make and a trigger that will activate the virus.  Both the rating and trigger will determine how difficult it will be to acquire the virus.  The most basic trigger is 'upon infection', which will cause the virus to activate immediately once in place.  Other triggers can delay activation until certain conditions are met, but more complex triggers will make the virus harder to program at the GM's discretion.

Creating the virus requires a Software + Logic [Attack or Sleaze] 1 hour test, versus twice the complex form's Fade Value + Trigger Modifiers.  Matching the opposed roll gets the hacker the virus at the end of the hour, but each net success will reduce that time by half.  A failed test results in wasted time and a  glitch halves the time before the virus becomes ineffective.

Once activated, Viruses roll twice their rating versus their target's defenses and behave as described by the complex form they copy.  With the Matrix constantly updating, viruses only have a 24 hour shelf life after creation before becoming ineffective.

Hot Patch
Complex Action
Marks Required: 3
Patch an Icon with experimental code.  Patches must have a Rating at least equal to the Device Rating or appropriate Attribute of the target system to be affective.  Patching a willing system is a Software + Logic [Data Processing] test versus Device Rating x 2.  Patching an unwilling system is the same as trying to Infect that system and uses the appropriate test.  If successful the code is implanted and will remain in place for a number of minutes equal to any net hits on that test.  After that time the experimental code will begin to break down rendering it ineffective.

Preparing a Patch
Patches are based on complex forms that can be considered a boon to their target.  First choose a complex form you intend to copy, then select what rating (level) patch you wish to make and a trigger that will activate the patch. Both the rating and trigger will determine how difficult it will be to acquire the patch.  The most basic trigger is 'upon application', which will cause the patch to activate immediately once in place.  Other triggers can delay activation until certain conditions are met, but more complex triggers will make the virus harder to program at the GM's discretion.

Creating the Patch requires a Software + Logic [Data Processing] 1 hour test, versus twice the complex form's Fade Value + Trigger Modifiers.  Matching the opposed roll gets the programmer the patch at the end of the hour, but each net success will reduce that time by half.  A failed test results in wasted time, a glitch halves the time before the patch becomes out of date.

Once activated, Patches roll twice their rating and behave as described by the complex form they copy.  With the Matrix constantly updating, patches only have a 24 hour shelf life after creation before becoming ineffective.

Its worth explaining that technos must still pay for the programs and deckers must still spend karma to design their viruses.

These rules mirror the house rules for alchemy at my table, which I changed to cut down on the book keeping.  Alchemical creations don't lose potency over hours, but they are only good for about a day.  Also cut out the regent requirements just to make the process a little more streamline.
« Last Edit: <06-10-15/0946:29> by wmkertz »

Marcus

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« Reply #130 on: <06-11-15/1902:44> »
Well I think it's interesting that you used multiple system issues to solve one another in a certain sense.
I think would upset the apple cart, but it's certainly an interesting idea.
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Triskavanski

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« Reply #131 on: <06-13-15/2352:20> »
I think some of the technomancer's problems lay around the fact they cannot really compensate for their weakness like other archetypes can. This could be attributed to a lack of gear and funds to get gear.


Mages are generally physically weak as well, but they have magic that can buff their physical attributes. Also since they are less dependent on all their mental stats, they can afford to smooth out on all sides. Technos on the other hand are very dependent on metal stats, and don't have magic to buff their physical aspects.

Perhaps what could be used is some small scale gear items intended to buff a Technomancer up. Like for example, roller skates that act like a car or drone but for your feet, or just give a bonus to movement speeds. It should be cheap though, something waay below a scooter.

Concepts are great, but implementation sucks. Why not improve it?

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ShadowMaster

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« Reply #132 on: <06-14-15/0027:13> »
I would suggest a sidebar with optional rules of currently existing rules.
Such as Resonance [Program] could be changed to give program slots either 1 per time take or up to ones submersion grade.
I happen to use the submersion grade in my game and it works fine.
The karma cost otherwise is to exorbitant and not worth it for any program.

Triskavanski

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« Reply #133 on: <06-14-15/0210:28> »
Or instead of slots, just the programs. So the technomancer has the ability to eventually out program deckers, but lacks their flexibility.
Concepts are great, but implementation sucks. Why not improve it?

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ScytheKnight

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« Reply #134 on: <06-14-15/0222:10> »
I'ts not really something I've seen before in ShadowRun, but for terms of having things linked to Resonance or Submersion rating perhaps a diminishing returns systems... every couple of bonuses from the system increases the number of needed Resonance or Submersion ranks. Offers that quick leg up Tehnomancers seem to need, offers a bit of progression as they gain power, but the diminishing returns makes sure they don't get out of hand.
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