[TennyJaden]

So, hello there, I have a question about Adepts/Mystic Adepts .

You buy powers via power points, so far it is pretty simple, but, can you just simply turn the powers back into Power Points to take something else, because it's not very clearly stated in the Adept chapter from the Core book. I don't hink you can, but I would like to get a clarification :]. Because, what I was wondering, assuming you had something like Improve Physical Attribute (Body) at 4, but then increase your Body to 6, you wouldn't benefit from that bonus at all, so it would be kind of a waste (just in case you increase your natural attributes to be relatively save from being affected by background count)

[wylie]

first, you are mistaken on how the adept powers work:
adept power body +4 adds 4 to the character body no matter what. just like cyberware.
it is not either or

on power points. I would leave that up to your GM. if something is not working for your concept, talk to the GM about changing it
by the rules, no they cannot be changed, but see my advice above

[TennyJaden]

Improved Physical Attribute
Cost: .75 per level
With this power, you can raise a Physical attribute (Agility, Body,
Reaction, or Strength). Each level increases the attribute by one. If
you later want to increase the attribute using Karma (p. 269), the cost
is based on the total attribute, including the magical improvements.
Increasing Reaction with this power also affects Initiative.
This power allows you to exceed your natural attribute maximum
up to the augmented maximum, but each point over the maximum
costs double (1.5 Power points per level).

This raises a physical attribute, and the fact that it accumulates with Karma costs for raising that attribute indicates, that it becomes part of your "real" attribute, as opposed to ware, where you only pay the Karma to raise your unaugmented attribute. Now according to Street Magic you lose the benefits of Power Points when you enter an area with background count or when your Magic Attribute is reduced. Now, just if you want to put some natural attributes on, so that you are less impaired by background count in case of entering an area with background count this is actually a lot more expensive as if it was done based on cyberware, or am I reading this wrong? 

[raggedhalo]

If your racial unaugmented max Body is 6, then your augmented max is 9.  You can't buy it up to 10, so the problem never comes up.

[TennyJaden]

Yeah, but imagine the following scenario: You have Body 4 and grab yourself Improved Physcial Attribute (Body) 5, you are a human, so you are now on your augmented maximum of 9. You naive little adept then run into an area with massive background count and suddenly turn into a wuss with only 4 Body, so you would like to have more natural body. You see now, what the problem is, I am having? How do I improve my natural body now and even more problematic: If I now improve my natural body now, I have up to two wasted ranks in Improve Physical Attribute (Body).

[raggedhalo]

My point is that you can't do that; for the purposes of spending Karma to improve your Attribute, it's already 9.  You can't buy it up under any circumstances by the RAW.  Despite the problems with background counts, you're stuck.

Perhaps try buying up your Magic instead, so you are less affected by Background Count?

[tzizimine]

First, magically active characters (and technomancers) have to be very cautious about how they spend their Karma. There are many scenarios where it would look like you would get a 'Karma refund' but you don't. For example, if you buy up your Magic from 4 to 5, costing 25 karma and then get your first implant, it drops your Magic back to 4 from the Essence lost. However, if you get your first implant before buying your Magic, your Magic drops from 4 to 3 and you buy it back to 4 for 20 Karma. 5 Karma difference, all based on the order you do things. The same is true for initiating before or after you join a group.


Second, because of this sense of caution, I would not let adepts rearrange powers after a certain point early in the game. If a new player isn't sure of what powers to get and finds out later that other powers would be better, that's fine, but once a player is comfortable with what they are playing, then it stays.


To balance this, though, I do use an optional rule from SR3 that allows an adept to purchase new powers at Power Point Cost x 20 Karma, but unless he is upgrading an existing power, he needs to find someone that already has it to teach him. Brand new powers are always available when raising their Magic (thus how new powers are first discovered).

[TennyJaden]

My point is that you can't do that; for the purposes of spending Karma to improve your Attribute, it's already 9.  You can't buy it up under any circumstances by the RAW.  Despite the problems with background counts, you're stuck.

Perhaps try buying up your Magic instead, so you are less affected by Background Count?

Hmmm, OR theoretically, but as a GM I wouldn't allow that, and I don't think anyone should, you just sit in an area with background count to raise the attribute, then leave the area and bam, higher stats for less Karma :O. It's things like that, why I am not a fan of the awakened, Adepts in particular. I actually DO believe that Mages are more straightforward, especially if you don't aim for a cybermage.

But thanks for clearing that up, altough I don't like the fact that it is "just not possible" ^.^.

[Critias]

*eats popcorn, to keep himself from ranting about certain costs of certain powers*

[CanRay]

*eats popcorn, to keep himself from ranting about certain costs of certain powers*

Didn't you fix that problem with "Way of the Adept"?

[Critias]

*eats popcorn, to keep himself from ranting about certain costs of certain powers*

Didn't you fix that problem with "Way of the Adept"?

I did what I could.  There are some that still just need to be reconfigured, in my opinion, though.  Discounts or not, they just don't balance well with mundane options for very, very, similar augmentations.

[nakano]

*eats popcorn, to keep himself from ranting about certain costs of certain powers*

Didn't you fix that problem with "Way of the Adept"?

I did what I could.  There are some that still just need to be reconfigured, in my opinion, though.  Discounts or not, they just don't balance well with mundane options for very, very, similar augmentations.

I have to agree.  After years of running shadowrun I am now actually playing in a couple of games and wanted to play an adept, but realized that playing a pure adept(no cyber/bioware) would be mechanically much weaker then either an adept with a splash of ware, or a ware based concept. 

Credit where it is due, Way of the Adept has helped tremendously.  That being said, even with the Ways available, I was still left with a choice between absolute optimization and RP flavor.  Given that most of the folks I play with focus on RP rather then dice rolling, I opted to stay with a pure adept concept.

[Xzylvador]

*eats popcorn, to keep himself from ranting about certain costs of certain powers*

Didn't you fix that problem with "Way of the Adept"?

I did what I could.  There are some that still just need to be reconfigured, in my opinion, though.  Discounts or not, they just don't balance well with mundane options for very, very, similar augmentations.

Yeah. I Loved Way of the Adept, but while it helps the adept catch up to his cybered counterparts a bit, they're still far from balanced. That would require a far more thorough reworking of their powers, maybe even the entire power points system.
I understand that you did what you could and no doubt wanted to go further, but I also understand that Catalyst is hesitant about allowing too many changes/additions to be made (maybe even more so in that kind of supplement books). It's still better to take small steps towards improving balance than taking giant leaps towards power creep. (@Catalyst: But a little bit more wouldn't be power creep though! Listen to Critias!)

That said: Do not, ever, buy Improved Attribute 4. In fact, the way it's written I'd be very hesitant about taking Improved Attribute for any attribute at any level. It's just too expensive.