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Magic in SR6?

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Lormyr

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« Reply #90 on: <07-18-19/1735:32> »
I suppose it will depend on the reason you banned them in 5th. Overall, their performance will be only slightly better than an equal powered mage. All the same offense plus adept combat sense for defense pools will be the only real difference on a primarily caster build.
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Marcus

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« Reply #91 on: <07-18-19/1742:03> »
Honestly MA always seem like role infringement. I don’t get why of all things that stupidity keeps getting rolled forward. They nerf armor in oblivion but MA just get  slapped on the wrist and sent on. We could totally do without MAs. Is there any willingness to trade MA’s for something else?
 
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Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #92 on: <07-18-19/1805:15> »
I suppose it will depend on the reason you banned them in 5th. Overall, their performance will be only slightly better than an equal powered mage. All the same offense plus adept combat sense for defense pools will be the only real difference on a primarily caster build.

That’s sort of my issue. If they are basically mage+ you are in a terrible design space on both a setting, rules and game group perspective.

dezmont

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« Reply #93 on: <07-18-19/1826:50> »
Well they exist because the archetype of a mystical warrior is a fantasy staple. Ninja, The Witcher, D&D rangers, paladins, and warlocks, take your pick.

They aren't better than an optimized mage (In this hypothetical soak tank/defense tank build a mage with a power foci granting 3 extra dice is rocking 4 extra defense dice, 1 extra soak dice, .5d6+2 more initiative, an extra 3 dice to cast spells, +2 dice on offensive actions, and this is if they decide not to also boost reflexes, strength, and body for an extra 1 defense dice and an extra 2 soak dice in a quickening build and the interaction between edge and quickening that makes 3 dice in reality some odd 5 dice which boosts everything further and puts the mage above 6 PP, which comes out to 4 PP ignoring the casting pool bonus and when the mage isn't trying very hard. Yes, in theory a mysad tank build can go higher than an extra 3 dice to resist damage at gen, but only by 3, and the difference between 40 soak and 43 is rather immaterial when the mage is also doing a heck of a lot of other things better.

But while this is a good mechanical comparison, its easier for a GM to spot that mage and say 'no' and its harder for a player to stumble upon the fact the mage with a power focus is so strong if they just buff like crazy and take psyche or view buffs as a consumable they will lose once every few runs (if ever, its REALLY hard to lose high force quickened spells, like dragons struggle to counterspell those suckers) and just quicken. So while a mage can be stronger than a mysad and is just generally a better more versatile build, it is easier to break mysads than mages.

But what about a 'fairly' played mysad? The guy who is getting some increased reflexes, 1-2 ranks of improved ability (blades), and maybe a rank in combat sense? Those seem to be ok. They are better than adepts just because summoning, but summoning was way too strong and nothing with summoning can be fair until summoning itself gets nerfed, and adepts are pretty bad in 5e and desperately need to augment with secondary power sources like 'ware or drugs anyway, so balancing 'down' to adepts doesn't make sense. In that scenario it seems to me what makes that mysad 'fair' even in 5e where they merely pay a bit of starting karma is the fact they aren't pushing the PP limit that hard. That may be a key to balancing mysads, capping the limit on bonus dice from their powers much lower than an adept, rather than removing magery for adeptness, because doing that doesn't really encourage the "Paladin who fights good with a sword and can also heal" so much as divides resources too much. In essence, a limit on how much you can invest adept powers to particular dice (say... only +1/3rd your magic as opposed to +your whole magic score to any given dice roll like most adepts have) might encourage mystical ninjas and the like and stop buff stacking. With buffs getting weaker in 6e that means the mystic adept can't as easily just buff themselves past a normal adept as well.

Course this is all navel gazing not super related to 6e. I just really enjoy the concept of myasds (They get people into the finger wiggler side of magic might otherwise not be) even though I don't like their implementation.
« Last Edit: <07-18-19/1834:32> by dezmont »

Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #94 on: <07-18-19/1836:48> »
No. What you still had was a mage+. He gave up jack shit of being a mage and got extra shit thrown on top. I don’t care if you gimp one side a bit he’s still the other side+. You have to right fully screw both sides so when added together they are roughly equal to either archetype. Nothing limitation+ is terrible. Mystic warriors could have been handled perfectly well just by adepts in earlier editions. Or a mage who just takes some damn combat skills. You don’t need mage+ to get there.

Lormyr

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« Reply #95 on: <07-18-19/1841:26> »
They aren't better than an optimized mage

Assuming we are talking about 5e, I believe they are strictly better, especially at defense. Long term:

A theory crafted optimized mage will run quickened armor, astral armor, combat sense, deflection, element aura, hawkeye, increase attribute all, increase reflexes, prophylaxis, and radiation shield. He'll have counterspelling and shielding to help resist hostile magic. He'll have centering, and run the best power foci and centering foci he can get his hands on.

The theory crafted optimized mystic adept will have all of that, plus combat sense and spell resistance maxed out. Depending on the build, it will also run some less than maxed combination of mystic armor and/or natural immunity. He'll also have hapsum-do and harmonious defense.

Defensively, there is no comparison. Because the mystic adept has to branch out a touch further, the mage is likely to have an extra die or 4 for spellcasting, but that is irrelevant to the mystic adept when nothing in your general ballpark of power level can touch or harm you.

That’s sort of my issue. If they are basically mage+ you are in a terrible design space on both a setting, rules and game group perspective.

A legit position. I have no rebuttal.
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Wakshaani

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« Reply #96 on: <07-18-19/1855:16> »
Given my druthers, a MysAd would lose Summoning and gain Physical Adept powers.

This still gives you your high-end ninja stuff, like walking through walls and turning invisible, but takes away the pet element.  This also leaves room for bullet mages, Paladins, and so on. Trade the ability to call for help for the ability to help yourself.

Of course, you'd have to deal with a bit of an uprising from the players who want all the power, but, it's the most fair, I think.


Singularity

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« Reply #97 on: <07-18-19/2328:17> »
Given my druthers, a MysAd would lose Summoning and gain Physical Adept powers.

This still gives you your high-end ninja stuff, like walking through walls and turning invisible, but takes away the pet element.  This also leaves room for bullet mages, Paladins, and so on. Trade the ability to call for help for the ability to help yourself.

Of course, you'd have to deal with a bit of an uprising from the players who want all the power, but, it's the most fair, I think.

That sounds reasonable to me. As I understand them currently they get all the mage abilities (spells, summoning, and enchanting) except astral travel and perception, plus adept powers correct? Making them adepts plus limiting them to just spells seems to make them better balanced than they seem to be currently.

Sphinx

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« Reply #98 on: <07-19-19/1018:25> »
It's hard to imagine learning to cast spells or summon spirits without being able to perceive astral space. If mystic adepts don't start with astral perception, it should be a mandatory use of a power point.

Perverseness

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« Reply #99 on: <07-19-19/1302:12> »
Has anyone got an idea of how alchemy is being treated in the new edition? 
I am a fan of the magical tinkerer archetype so I thought its inclusion in 5e was great and would like to see it expand

Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #100 on: <07-19-19/1312:33> »
Has anyone got an idea of how alchemy is being treated in the new edition? 
I am a fan of the magical tinkerer archetype so I thought its inclusion in 5e was great and would like to see it expand

I loved the idea of it in 5e. The implementation sucked ass even after its pseudo patches in supplements. Hopefully they figured out the math this time.

BeCareful

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« Reply #101 on: <07-20-19/2245:43> »
So, I'm glad that I didn't cause all that much of a flare-up, and also that we got to toss around ideas around MysAds. I like the idea of "basically make them Aspected Spellcasters With Qi," because then you get the most exciting options - spells & fancy adept stuff - without the less-exciting-but-more-frustrating stuff.
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Voran

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« Reply #102 on: <07-23-19/1904:46> »
I admit, I'm wondering if this will lead to combat+effect not living things+electricity+area+ranged = target tech things including head cases by zapping nanites and doing matrix damage to things via a spell.

Totoro

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« Reply #103 on: <07-24-19/1720:56> »
They aren't better than an optimized mage

Assuming we are talking about 5e, I believe they are strictly better, especially at defense. Long term:

A theory crafted optimized mage will run quickened armor, astral armor, combat sense, deflection, element aura, hawkeye, increase attribute all, increase reflexes, prophylaxis, and radiation shield. He'll have counterspelling and shielding to help resist hostile magic. He'll have centering, and run the best power foci and centering foci he can get his hands on.

The theory crafted optimized mystic adept will have all of that, plus combat sense and spell resistance maxed out. Depending on the build, it will also run some less than maxed combination of mystic armor and/or natural immunity. He'll also have hapsum-do and harmonious defense.

Defensively, there is no comparison. Because the mystic adept has to branch out a touch further, the mage is likely to have an extra die or 4 for spellcasting, but that is irrelevant to the mystic adept when nothing in your general ballpark of power level can touch or harm you.

I disagree. At early levels, the karma cost of power points keeps mystic adepts on par with (I would argue slightly worse than) magicians. At higher levels, if the mystic adept keeps spending the karma for power points, the magician pulls ahead. In order to keep the analysis focused, just consider Combat Sense. It is both a spell and a power.

At chargen, the mystic adept spends 15 karma to get 3 power points, all of which go into Combat Sense, giving him +6 defense and the ability to always make a surprise check. The mage uses one of the spells he learned (worth 7 karma) to pick up Combat Sense the spell.  He also spends 12 karma to bond to a sustaining focus 6 and has to spend 24k nuyen (worth 12 karma), then casts until he gets 6 hits and now gets +6 defense and +6 to surprise tests. It seems like a good deal (15 karma to 31 karma), but the mage gets astral perception and projection, which are exceptionally valuable (mysad can spend another 5 karma to be able to afford astral perception, so now 20 karma to 31 karma) and the sustaining focus can be used for whatever spell the mage wants to sustain, so it's more versatile, and the spell can be cast on allies. If the mystic adept also took the spell to cast on allies, he would be paying twice, so not a good use of resources. IMO, astral projection is worth more than 11 karma; we use it all the time. And the spell/focus combo is also worth more than 11 karma because you can put it on allies and use the focus for something else when needed. If the mysad went with spell resistance at max instead of astral perception, mage could match that with a counterspelling focus, which is more versatile (can be used for dispelling) and helps everyone in the party.

A couple hundred karma later, the magician and mysad now have MAG 8. Now the karma differential spell-to-power is 20 to 39, but I think the advantage still goes to the mage.

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #104 on: <07-24-19/1855:41> »
MysAds of 6WE are not the MysAds of 5e. (Then again, they're not the MysAds of 4e, either...)

Hundreds of karma down the line MysAds will be as broken as they ever were, but not right out of chargen at least.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.