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Magic in SR6?

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Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #60 on: <07-10-19/1854:08> »

Ghost yes! I'm glad the old 'ground a fireball through the focus' is gone, but if I can unravel a spell or spirit from a ways off, I should be able to unravel the magic in a focus, temporarily or permanently.

They had a grounding I kind of liked in forbidden arcana in that it only effected the focus user. I’d have no problems with grounding spells or attacks through focuses if the attack stopped at the mage wearing the focus. Just like if you attack cyber with a decker the effects stop with the cyber dude.

Problem with the forbidden arcana thing is it was a initiation and it should have been the default.

Serbitar

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« Reply #61 on: <07-11-19/0841:01> »
Typical example of trying to fix bad rule design by arbitrary ingame bullying.

The main problem of OP mages is not that they kill people (maybe even more than other runners, because they are more effective) but that they are taking away the fun from the other players. Same goes for too powerful spirits.
The logic to let the game world retaliate because a player used totally viable game mechanics (what is rule abuse anyway? either something is allowed or not. At what point should I feel guilty?) is just bad GMing.
Players can toss around a bag of grenades in every encounter and walk around in MilSpec, and there are in-universe counters to that. 'If you cross the line, the setting supports backlash' is not bad GMing. Spirits not liking abuse is explicit in the rules, and HTR when you go around creating too big a splash is something that's always been a thing.

Correct, you can backlash on bad behaviour with setting, but not on exploitation of rules. Fix setting with setting and rules with rules. Fixing bad rules by punish a player that is appenrently using them with setting measures is a no go.

Serbitar

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« Reply #62 on: <07-11-19/0849:40> »
I'm sorry, I thought we were playing a game where characters often operate under the tagline "I kill people. For money."
"The Game World strikes back!" is what happens in literally every game ever made. You're not the only people moving in a world in stasis. If you go lobbing acid bombs into a cubical farm full of wage slaves, guards will come to arrest or put you down. Get in a bar fight with the Halloweeners cause your buddy Lucky Eyes wanted to talk smack, his buddies may come find you and practice the Art of Beating on your bones (then you go punch Lucky Eyes in that secondhand eye-ware he calls cyber). In game bullying would be sending the Red Samurai after you for painting 'Renraku Sucks!' on the side of their building. Sending them when you blow up a floor of the tower with a few pounds of C4 is a proper response.

There are rules and guild lines for security responses in the books, just as there is a rule (called Spirit Index) for how much of a fragger the local spirit world thinks you are. Not to mention every piece of Shadowrun fluff all the way back to the very first novel that has had spirits in it has shown them to be complex beings with thoughts and feelings and emotions alien to but on par with the meatsacs who summon them. Why would they react differently then any other NPC just because of a compulsion.

All true, what has this to do with bad rules? Bad rules means that, in case of bad rules creating OP chartacters, the OP character is much better than the others. It does not mean (necessarily) that he goes on a rampage. It just means that he can do the (for the run required and thus by the game world accepted) fighting all, or allmost all, by himself. Or any task, that the runners are required to do, depending on the field of OP. How do you fix this with an ingame response? The caracter is just doing what the job requires, but so effectively that others dont shine. THAT is an OP rules problem. Not somebody being so powerfull that he goes on a rampage (THAT is a setting problem). Of course they are connected as in they both require power. But they are different problems.

The Magicrun problem is when a (OP) mage can do everything himself and better than all the other runners, not when the magician kills the whole city. And this is, at least what i perceive, the point of discusison right now.
« Last Edit: <07-11-19/0852:51> by Serbitar »

Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #63 on: <07-12-19/1946:33> »
Just got not future. So budding mages of the world. Flamethrower spell or a bottle filled with gas and lit on fire.

FastJack

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« Reply #64 on: <07-12-19/2039:20> »
Just got not future. So budding mages of the world. Flamethrower spell or a bottle filled with gas and lit on fire.

I don't know if you got No Future with the 5E stats, but the cocktail is 8P with -6 AP and Flamethrower needs to be cast at Force 8 to have 8P/-8AP with 7 Drain to resist. In comparison, the cocktail does 10P in 6E and Flamestrike needs 10 hits to get 10P damage, but the DV is 5 to resist.

Of course, they do talk about in the description for the Molotov Cocktail that it is hard to make one nowadays since glass bottles aren't as common, gas costs a lot more, and tanks (their main target) are sealed against liquids. I admit, that's not reflected in the price of the item, but is listed as 6F availablility.

Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #65 on: <07-12-19/2102:28> »
Just got not future. So budding mages of the world. Flamethrower spell or a bottle filled with gas and lit on fire.

I don't know if you got No Future with the 5E stats, but the cocktail is 8P with -6 AP and Flamethrower needs to be cast at Force 8 to have 8P/-8AP with 7 Drain to resist. In comparison, the cocktail does 10P in 6E and Flamestrike needs 10 hits to get 10P damage, but the DV is 5 to resist.

Of course, they do talk about in the description for the Molotov Cocktail that it is hard to make one nowadays since glass bottles aren't as common, gas costs a lot more, and tanks (their main target) are sealed against liquids. I admit, that's not reflected in the price of the item, but is listed as 6F availablility.


i have the 6e stats but I knew the 5e ones. Which I think make the 6e ones a error. Though admittedly I don’t have any other grenades to reference. But effectively the molotov in 6e is doing the same damage as the 5e where other weapons do less. The 6e ones damage should be 1/2d most likely and that’s being generous. Probably 4 damage really. But I don’t know if it’s damage scales up with net hits.

Not sure why SR5 on seems to want to make grenades 100% kill weapons but that is what it’s looking like.


Be that as it may needing 10 hits to match it is crazy.  Direct combat spells continue to seem to be useless. Indirect are okay. Base damage probably 3 for most starting mages. That’s weak weapon level but as you initiate etc it will get better. Actually like that as I never felt there was much reason to actually boost your magic stat before.

Marcus

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« Reply #66 on: <07-12-19/2112:46> »
GRENADES IMPACT 2M   5M 10M AVAIL COST NOTES
Molotov        10P        4P   2P    —    6F     15¥   Fire damage

That's what the updated version says.
With no basis for comparison I have no idea how good or bad that is.

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Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #67 on: <07-12-19/2117:13> »
GRENADES IMPACT 2M   5M 10M AVAIL COST NOTES
Molotov        10P        4P   2P    —    6F     15¥   Fire damage

That's what the updated version says.
With no basis for comparison I have no idea how good or bad that is.

Only thing I’m comparing it to is QSR and it’s super deadly compared to that. As pointed out 5e version did 8p with 6 ap which math wise is pretty close to 10p. With all other weapons going down in damage it seems like a mistake. But maybe high explosive grenades do 20dv in 6e.

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #68 on: <07-12-19/2126:04> »
There's the potential 10P damage value, but the 4P and 2P are much more likely to be relevant.  And those values can be compared to QSR weapons.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Marcus

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« Reply #69 on: <07-12-19/2132:05> »
Impact implies maximum possible damage?
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Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #70 on: <07-12-19/2139:48> »
There's the potential 10P damage value, but the 4P and 2P are much more likely to be relevant.  And those values can be compared to QSR weapons.

I assume impact means you beaned someone with it so not in the splash. You have to hit with most weapons to do anything. So unless impact is some code in 6e that makes it super hard to pull off it seems to be a weapon that out does sniper rifles, assault rifles on full auto etc.

FastJack

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« Reply #71 on: <07-12-19/2140:10> »
I believe the other ones are for distance from target - 10P on impact, 4P within 2m, 2P within 5m.

Edit: also, please remember that, even in the write-up for the entry, molotovs are used against tanks and large groups of heavily armored troops. Being covered in burning gas is a pretty serious thing (the only thing worse is napalm). Gas and oil float on water, so to douse the flames with water isn't just throwing a glass of water on it, but drenching/submerging the burning target in water. Case in point, stove grease fires.

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #72 on: <07-12-19/2143:30> »
There's the potential 10P damage value, but the 4P and 2P are much more likely to be relevant.  And those values can be compared to QSR weapons.

I assume impact means you beaned someone with it so not in the splash. You have to hit with most weapons to do anything. So unless impact is some code in 6e that makes it super hard to pull off it seems to be a weapon that out does sniper rifles, assault rifles on full auto etc.

It might seem that way sure.  Except for factors that make it not so.  Obviously it's possible you could be directly hit.  But you probably won't be.  I don't think I can go into concrete details, so however frustrating that is... all I'm saying is those 2nd and 3rd numbers are the ones you really ought to worry about rather than the 1st one.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #73 on: <07-12-19/2146:57> »
There's the potential 10P damage value, but the 4P and 2P are much more likely to be relevant.  And those values can be compared to QSR weapons.

I assume impact means you beaned someone with it so not in the splash. You have to hit with most weapons to do anything. So unless impact is some code in 6e that makes it super hard to pull off it seems to be a weapon that out does sniper rifles, assault rifles on full auto etc.

It might seem that way sure.  Except for factors that make it not so.  Obviously it's possible you could be directly hit.  But you probably won't be.  I don't think I can go into concrete details, so however frustrating that is... all I'm saying is those 2nd and 3rd numbers are the ones you really ought to worry about rather than the 1st one.

Cool. 4 seems reasonable for a improvised weapon. 10 didn’t given where other weapons were.

dezmont

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« Reply #74 on: <07-12-19/2151:36> »
While Karl Kaster obviously will find the optimal path no matter what, there is a huge difference between recognizing this fact and not freaking out if he notices something really good and throwing up your hands saying 'whelp guess we don't have to care.'

A huge problem with 5e magic is that it didn't take Karl Kaster for things to get out of hand. "Combos" (as far as they could be called combos) as simple as 'Combine sustaining spells with the thing that reduces sustaining penalties and then sustain lots of spells' resulted in very unfun table situations where either the mage just was way too good at everything or mages who didn't sustain and adepts would be cruuuuushed by the attempt to balance magic 'in universe' against sustaining.

In essence, despite the fact that optimizers are going to optimize, it doesn't let the design off the hook when the balance is just bad. The logic fails because you can't apply it in other identical situations and sound sane: "Because Sammy Samurai is going to find the optimal path anyway we can just make things really broken and release a gun that does 20p and automatically hits and costs 200 nuyen, is avail 4R, and is concealment +2." That is a hyperbolic example, but obviously the goal SHOULD be that things are fair.

A huge problem with 'in universe' attempts to 'fix' magic is that magic usage is completely under the control of the PC with no inherent downsides to the PC. Like if an aspect of magic is not a good tool for a specific situation you can just choose not to use that aspect, and in many cases the 'downsides' of magic can be trivially avoided, like drain just via resting (Though the healing changes may fix that). If X buff spells are worth the penalty but X+1 isn't, people will just use X, if you can sustain Y drain safely without really losing anything people will. If combat magic is worse than a gun mages will just buff and use a gun. None of these are INHERENTLY bad things but you want the numbers involved to be good numbers and want to respect the fact that there is a strong emotional attachment to mundanity among many players and the perception that mages get special treatment from the designers has caused... amazingly bitter feelings that have destroyed groups.

Balance isn't really important to keep things balanced, because Karl Kaster is going to find the best thing to do anyway, but you need to make sure that A: Being any role has an upshot that feels like its yours and B: No one feels like the designers are playing favorites or that any one thing has so much upside not picking it actively makes you feel bad.

There are indications the problem might be solved (For example, sustaining penalties don't really work conceptually to balance buffs, buffs are either efficient dicepool wise or they aren't and if they are they REALLY are, so getting rid of them and balancing on a different axis makes total sense) and drain plus the new healing changes might really work to prevent mages from just casting a bajillion small effects before summoning one big spirit and steamrolling everything. But the problem that severe imbalances create really shouldn't be laid at karl Kaster's feet. Minor imbalances get smoothed out by the fact some archetypes have strengths others can't emulate, and while Karl Kaster will still exploit those he probably won't ruin anyone's day with them.

The issue is when the strength of an archtype is so huge it warps the entire game and setting around it, like 5e mages with their summoning mini-gods, once your starting PC can consistently summon a force 12 and survive the fact they can't personally get good soak sorta pales as Spiritzilla solos an indefinite amount of HTR opponents unless they summon their OWN spiritzilla that no one else can touch and suddenly the only people who can really affect the outcome of the conflict are Pokemon Battler mages who aren't even on site and everyone else might as well go home. That isn't Karl's fault, that behavior can be done by Danny McNevercastaspell on his first mage just because "Push drain resistance and casting and summoning to as high as you can go" isn't exactly a nuanced breakage of game mechanics so much as being a thing rookie players often instinctively do because its easy to understand. The 'in universe' cure is inevitably as bad as the disease (See: High Background Counts that can turn off force 12 sustained quickened spells absolutely DEMOLISHING adepts as a playable concept) and it really just is smarter (and also literally the job of a game designer) to ensure THAT doesn't happen.

Ideally (and it seems like this may be the case, though rumors of spirits STILL having hardened armor are spooky) mages should be tossing out big spoopy scary effects that make everyone turn their head, as well as small tricky effects, but should suffer in terms of sustaining big effects for a long time, or personally being the biggest badass in the room, and they shouldn't just be smashing through problems by tactically limiting their expected drain to be 1-3 stun and just laughing off a -6 sustaining penalty because their combined buffs give em +9 to everything. You should have SOME idea what is healthy behavior for an archetype and should make pretty significant effort to ensure that healthy behavior is the natural 'lane' the archetpye falls into, without specifically designing the archetype to be defined by what they can't do (like 5e hackers kinda were).

I think things that would be a red flag for 6e balance for magic as far as we know with public information would be combat buffs that are as selfish and potent as they used to be in 5e, strong tools for supporting buffs that can compete with augs head to head, spirits of even moderate force being unkillable by mundanes, infinite force scaling, ways to nullify drain, and tools that make drain hit softer like centering foci. As the power level for many mundane things has drastically fallen due to how edge is going to work, mages kinda need to feel that drain pinch, need to essentially lose access to augmentations now that the big upshot of augmentations are likely weaker, and definitely shouldn't be able to essentially summon 5e style sams. That seems like what is actually happening, but it really just takes one stinker to bring us back to the status quo where Little Billy's first mage may accidently crack their campaign's spine over their knee.

Also, I am hecka interested in POSITIVE elemental effects on things like healing, just to end on a somewhat positive non-sequitur. Like color me intrigued in the extreme, as weirdo side boons and buffs and debuffs always seemed like a great way to make mages feel magicky while not making their effects just superior to mundane ones.
« Last Edit: <07-12-19/2159:06> by dezmont »