Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Gamemasters' Lounge => Topic started by: DamienHollow on <06-08-13/1949:27>
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I've got a player who likes to snag extras while on runs. Now I don't mind if this is some cyber or a few goodies just laying around. I could even handle some big things. But he is going after corporate secrets, hidden data, walked off with a small backup server on one occasion for the data on it. He will go far out of his way to grab a big score while on a run. Advice?
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Higher pay. If someone is doing such shenanigans, then your runs aren't paying enough.
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"Milk Runs" (like there is such a thing) pay out 5K per member up and Never take more than a week at the most. Most of their runs that involve serious danger start at 25k per member and go up (usually with a hefty bonus if it takes more than a week or involves serious danger) . They normally get two to three runs a month. Sometimes four if they've been making milk runs.
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That may be true, Guns, but it is neither the only nor the least likely case. If it's just one guy, it's less likely an issue of pay and more likely to be something else, like the player being used to games where you take everything that's not nailed down, or maybe he just thinks that's how the game is meant to be played, or it's something he sees as part and parcel to his character.
There is almost never just one possibility, and you don't have the grounds for that sort of certainty.
What sort of obstacles have been between him and the extra stuff?
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How much has this player played D&D and/or Pathfinder?
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That may be true, Guns, but it is neither the only nor the least likely case. If it's just one guy, it's less likely an issue of pay and more likely to be something else, like the player being used to games where you take everything that's not nailed down, or maybe he just thinks that's how the game is meant to be played, or it's something he sees as part and parcel to his character.
There is almost never just one possibility, and you don't have the grounds for that sort of certainty.
What sort of obstacles have been between him and the extra stuff?
He's had two run ins with the Red Samurai and another with Ares Firewatch.
How much has this player played D&D and/or Pathfinder?
This guy was raised playing D&D. To tell you the truth I haven't seen this guy play one game and not make the GM give up the game out of frustration. One part min maxer one part "If I don't like what you're doing I will ruin your game."
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Then ask him what he's wanting. Then again, it's not like he's doing anything that "has to have a stop put to it".
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What sort of security measures, aside from that which had to be defeated to get at the target of the run, have been in his way?
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I have a player like this as well. When he was a mind manipulation mage, he took bank accounts, identies ect. As a hacker, the team raided a research facility looking for a particular file. He used agents to copy he entire database...
The pay was 60,000, and other runs its been more or less. It's just how he seems to play his characters. If his next character is a street Sam, I expect that he will sell his victims to body shops...
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What sort of security measures, aside from that which had to be defeated to get at the target of the run, have been in his way?
Aside from actual boots on the ground and drones he's dealt with locks, sensors of all kinds, spiders, and shear distance to his target. I almost killed him once when I took a leaf from one of the rule books (a fluff page in Unwired I think) and had his target sitting in the middle of a cloud of nanites. His team has a dedicated medic/face who saved his ass. Still didn't learn. I think at this point he's doing it to spite me.
If he thinks he's being railroaded (and there are time i think he sees Plot as railroad, i shudder to think what he would do with the Artifacts runs) he will do everything he can to derail the story from there on. Last game I GMd with him was a D&D 4th edition where he didn't like how I started the game and promptly derailed the plot to the point there wasn't a NPC that could drive the story who would trust the party enough to do so. This guy is a pain, I like the group but most of them are type B personalities who would rather deal with him than try and find someone else. I think I just need to find a new group all together.
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... This is an out-of-game problem, and thus you cannot solve it through in-game means. You're simply going to need to talk to him about your issues why he feels compelled to do this, and consider if you're willing to boot him from the game. Pure and simple.
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"If I don't like what you're doing I will ruin your game."
Remove him from your game. He's not going to fix himself no matter what you do.
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As someone who used to be that kind of player, I'm all in favor of the 'boot him from the game if he refuses to rein himself in' option. It's what I did to myself once I realized that the game I was in (and the other players/GM) would be better served by my absence while I sorted myself out. A few months later I was in the right headspace and was welcomed back.
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I think I'm just going to leave the group even if i can't find another one. The others cave to him so it's less of a "throw him out" as it is a " I leave the group." Tried it before, didn't work. I'll wrap up the game next session and start looking harder. I've had a hell of a time.
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Why would you do that? Maybe you should talk to the group first - the fact that you're feeling like you have to do something about it might be enough to get them to do the same.
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If the other players assist him, then it is like regular run, just have you to improvise, that is not so bad. Derailling the plot? So what? Runners are heroes, when they are involved. Else, story's going on. You could have them facing the consequences of not being serious at this game/for a run. Also, I don't think other players would like their PC being nailed just because the other guy goes overboard once too much.
But if that guy is really breaking your game out of personal problems with you (or because of his personality), well, ask him why? Maybe he is bored because he thinks you don't give them real challenges, or because you don't take their background into account. Or maybe he likes being over the top and wander in the RPG because he would not be able to do it on console or in RL (because RL sometimes railroad you in some matters, granted you want some thing accomplished.).
Or maybe is just an asshole. Then you can also talk to other players after throwing him away, because if they are not really assertive, then they will listen you to convince them playing without him. And if they like him so much, that means they are alike, just less assertive and needing a leader. So you won't lose anything leaving.
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Like I said. I've tried. Even the ones who concede that I have a point take the "talk it over" stance. So I tried to talk to him. It never helps. It might get him to lighten up for a day but then he's right back to doing this sort of thing. The others put up with it. I left the group for six months. Spent six months trying to find another group, found plenty of D&D 3.5 groups but I frankly don't like that system. All of the Pathfinder groups would slash large numbers of classes and races even from the Core and Base lists. And nobody else that I can find in this valley plays Shadowrun of any edition.
As for his personality, I'm seriously starting to think he's a Histrionic.
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Ok, I don't usually condone this type of think, but sometimes, it just has to be done....
This is what I call a "F**K over Waldo" run <evil grin>
1) The run is simple, they are to raid a corporate office and make off with a gizmo (don't care what it is). However, you have something near the run zone that you KNOW the player will grab (with him making off with servers and such, this should be no problem). A high end data store, Commlink, or other info device is best.....
2) They go back to the Johnson and get paid.... no big deal.... till the Johnson turns up dead by a horrific means. (in my game, the Johnson was peeled with a potato peeler, with large amounts of antiseptic and coagulate used on him... to keep him alive as long as possible) Most runner will go "huh tough break.... lets look over our loot!" This is when they find out that the info device is HIGHLY encrypted and a host to multiple databombs, black IC and other levels of nasty. (Most greedy players see this and see dollar signs! they will spend a lot of free time trying to crack the sucker open... or looking for someone to crack it)
3) At the same time, if any of the players get in touch with a contact, ASK them to make a loyalty roll. If they succeed, the contact tells them some ominous like "Hey, there was a large man in a black suit asking about you" or, "Man is you handle generating a lot of traffic on the matrix right now!" or "Hey, why did you rape/brutalise/murder/torture that <insert vulnerable member of society here>?? you didn't have to do that!!"
If they fail the loyalty roll, the contact acts panicky, nervous, scared, and is not much help. (loyalty 3+). Or they act like character is their best friend, and his happy to see that and glad they called... and drops several lines about how they should "hook up real soon for beers and what not!"(loyalty 1-2)
LOYALTY 3+:
If they check on the contact (physically) they find the poor contact's home has been trashed and the contact is barely holding onto life. Once he has recovered to the point of talking, he tells them that several men showed up asking about the character! How they knew, he knew them, he doesn't say. but they are really insistent that up with the character like RIGHT NOW! The Men in black even took his wife/child/girlfriend/dog/cat/hamster hostage and expect the characters to contact them ASAP (the contact has the number....) If they do call, proceed to #6
LOYALTY 2-
The contact will set up a meeting for the get together someplace the characters have never been before.... a Bar, club, or restaurant (or, from the outside looks like a bar/club/restaurant. As the character(s) enter, they soon find the contact, Dead. And men in black armor come in blazing after tossing flash bangs (Ambush rules time!) there should be the same number of men in black as to characters +2.... if more then 4, then one will be a mage. if more then 6, then 1 will be a mage, 1 will be an adept. The goal is to capture the character(s), not kill, so they will be using mostly stun ammo and weapons.
If they get their hands on the character(s), when they wake up, they are alone in a white room with VERY bright lights shining down from the ceiling, and mounted on the walls. They are strapped to a chair, nude. (if they are a mage, they have been outfitted with mage restraints. If they are a social adept they are gagged). A little man comes into the room pushing a cart loaded with medical instruments, and a few odd items. Notably several large books, and gas powered "hotplate". he begins to speak to the character(s)
5) "Do you have any heart or respitory problems I should be made aware of before we begin? A history of seizures? or allergies? No? good. Allow me to introduce myself, I am Dr. <insert simple name here> and I am here to over see your vivisection. We will be starting off with 200cc adrenaline to keep you from blacking out, so you will remain awake while I ask you a question. We will only stop when you answer the question. Do you understand? Good. First we will start with the removal of the dermis, then the epidermis, followed by soft tissues, tendons, then muscle tissues and fibers, then bone tissue. We will be avoiding organs, nerve tissues and fibers, and process functions of the brain. To do this removal, we will be relying of the 4 elements of interrogation. Hot, Cold, Sharp, and Blunt. Which one would you like to start with?"
The question is always the same "Where is the <insert stolen device>? Who has it? how is it guarded? have you cracked it yet?"
Now, most players can not play fear at all, they will passively sit there while horrible things happen to them, happily spitting in the Doctors eye. THIS is what "composure" tests are for. let them roll. then have the doctor remove some skin. then have them roll again with a modifier.... and the doctor removes some more.... then roll again with a bigger modifier... and so on. Until they fail 3 times and the doctor is satisfied with the answers and is sure they are telling the truth. Even if they answer right off the bat, he still removes several sections of skin/muscle/tissue/bone, (just to make sure)
*****if they are all captured I recommend using notes between you and the players to keep the other players from knowing exactly what happens to the others, and who talks first.***
*IF only 1 runner was captured, its only a question of how much damage is done before cracks (if its not the offending character, Hope that it is not too much!). The men in black then dispatch a drone to the location to recon the area. if it spots the runners that are still on the loose, it drops down to deliver a message: (see #6, but modify it to reflect that it is one of their team they have)
*IF the entire team has been captured and it is simply a matter of picking up the device, the players will remain in custody until the device has been picked up. Once it has been the runners will be drugged and then dropped nude in some part of their neighbourhood close to where the device was picked up. The runners, missing their equipment that they went to the meet with and most likely several patches of skin (or worse!!) should consider themselves lucky the men in black didn't just finish the job and kill them off.
But hey, good shadow talent is hard to find! If the players have a good reputation, then before they got dropped off, they actually underwent some "un" elective surgery... in the way of a Cortex bomb! When they are dropped off, they also have a commlink with them. Once the awaken the Commlink goes off and Doc whats-his-name starts talking: "Good to see that you are awake, Do you have full sensation of or limbs? no tingling? good, I hate opening the skull of a patient, so many things can go wrong. Let me be straight with you. inside your head is a cortex bomb with a 18 month battery supply. Keep this commlink with you, on occasion I will have assignments for you that I expect you to carry out for us. If you refuse, we detonate the bomb. If you try to remove the bomb, we detonate the bomb. If you require headware implantation you will contact me through the link. If you try to have any headware installed without us, we will assume you are attempting to disable the cortex device and detonate the bomb. Am I clear? good. Rest up. You will have a busy future ahead of you. And welcome to <insert Corporation name here> I am sure you will prove yourself to be a valuable member of our team!"
6) If they call the number provided by the contact, a person picks up after the 2nd ring. and says the following:
"Hello, you can call me Mr. <insert simple name here>. Am I dealing with amateurs? or professionals?"
If they say Professionals:
"good then this will be easy. I have something you want back, and you have something I want back. A simple exchange. Once I confirm that the <insert stolen device> is correct, intact, and uncracked, you can have what we took from your friend. The verification of goods and exchange will take place at <insert address for underground parking lot>, middle level in 3 hours. please do not be late. This number will not work after we hang up, there will be no second chances on this exchange. If you are late, the item in my possession expires. And we start again from square one. Do you understand? Good"
If they say they are amateurs:
"Hmm, then this will be difficult. I know you will not believe I am serious unless I send you so choose. Hand or Foot? Go to this matrix address in 5 minutes, enter in this passcode, view the film, then call me back"
If they go to the matrix address in 5 minutes, there is a freshly loaded and sanitized video file that shows the terrified hostage strapped down to a table. A man approaches with a bone saw, and promptly removes the agreed upon appendage, while the hostage screams and writhes in pain and fear.
If they call the number back repeat basically what is said up top, but modified to reflect the fact that they are amateurs and the man will brook no nonsense from them.
7) At the parking garage, the area has been blocked off with construction tape. the characters can either drive down, or walk down. On the middle level they spot the hostage tied to a chair in the middle of area. strapped around the waist is a large device with many blinking lights. A small drone hovers nearby, as the players enter the area, the Drone begins to speak.
"your property has an explosive device attached to her. If you attempt to remove it, it will detonate. Under the chair is a commlink, please retrieve the link. One you have placed our property in the drone, we have recovered it and verified that it is uncracked and correct, well will transmit the code to release the bomb."
*IF the players shoot the drone, the bomb goes off, killing the hostage. The men in black will simply start again by grabbing an other contact and going through the procedure again (and be more displeased with the players)
*IF they tampered with the stolen device, or cracked the encryption, or placed a substitute device in the drone, the bomb goes off. The men in black start again with another contact.
*IF they try to hack the drone, they find it is controlled by a rigger who knows his stuff. He gives them a warning to leave. If they don't the bomb goes off. the men in black start again.
*IF they place the device in the drone, it has not be tampered with and is uncracked, the commlink under the chair beeps with a code to enter into a keypad to release the hostage. NOTE: if they have gone through this procedure before, the players decide to co-operate, the bomb goes off!
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While there are many ways to mess with and actually track down the men in black, by the time they do so, they should be down several contacts. As well as have their reputations run through the mill simply because their greed started this blood bath. The men in black turn out to be corp special operations from the corp that they stole the device from. Apparently the runners missed some survailance drones/equipment on the original run and it captured they appearances on film as well as their profiles, and anything they said during the run. Using that, and the corp's network of fixers, fences, and contacts they were able to get a partial tracking on the runners. Not enough to know where they are/were but enough to get a line on some/all of their contacts.
IF they managed to crack the encryption what they find is......... nothing of real import! there is some progress reports, some projection reports, and status reports of various divisions with in the Company. If they look really hard, buried in the Emails they find some correspondence between a Manager and his mistress. It would seem that this manager (a basic nobody in the company) has sent the special operations team after the runners to keep his little love affair a secret from his wife! He feared that the runners were going to attempt to blackmail him with the emails and end his marriage (and ruin him financially, since most of his money goes to either the wife/lifestyle or to maintain his mistresses lifestyle, he has no money to pay for the blackmailing! he figured he would tell HR that the device contained "sensitive Corporate secrets" and had to be recovered quickly.... hence the Special Operation team.
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It's inherently a problem if the extra theft isn't disruptive. If it is disruptive there are a few options you can look at.
1) Let the random theft be the maguffin that leads to a campaign mini arc. The runners steal something so hot that the Corps, the Mob, the Yaks and another runner team all come after them looking for the paydata.
2) Have a run time out because of the random looting. They would have gotten away but because of the random looting they barely miss escaping from the QRT.
3) Some of the miscellaneous loot is tagged and lets the corp they hit backtrack them. Maybe it even burns their fence instead of them.
4) Their Johnson is pissed off that they're so unprofessional that they're looting on a run and their street cred takes a hit.
5) Their Johnson is actually working for the corp they hit, maybe the run is against a rival department, and he's so pissed off he tries to burn them.
6) If the players would actually have more fun as smash and grab thieves try running that game instead. Substitute crooked fences and twisted mob bosses for the usual window dressing and go for it.
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Before you walk away and/or kill the entire party, I recommend one more conversation with the player. If he keeps the money to himself, explain that he's basically taking up party time and making things more complicated for the party solely for his own enrichment.
Of course, regardless of whether he keeps the money or shares it, explain that there are logical consequences to this: aside from numbers 3, 4 and 5 on Crunch's list, there's also the fact that shadowrunners only survive because they don't piss off the corps enough to pursue them at all costs - and guess what? Stealing corporate secrets or backup servers (a prime place for higher-ups to stash some secret data) will get you there quick.
Now this is the most important part: if he doesn't listen to you, even if you quit, make sure his habit actually does get the party killed first. He needs to learn actions have consequences.
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I had a party that was moving in from a long history of DnD, myself. I knew this would be a problem, that even I would encounter the issue if I was playing. My solution was quite effective, I believe.
Here, have this.
And this.
And this.
This too.
Make them suspicious, jumping at shadows, waiting for the other shoe to drop. Have their contacts unclear about half the stuff they're getting.
On a similar note, I have a party that had trouble looking under the basic surface, (vital Runner skill) so I gave them a mission to retrieve some telesma, bring one crate to the Johnson, and dump the rest. The catch? Johnson wanted a crate that turned out to be Dragon Scales.
Railroading is when you don't give them other choices.
Sometimes, a few words in private help a person smarten up, or explain the issue. Sometimes, it takes a close shave with one of Lofwyr's pet runners, and GM confirmation that it cost them more to take the extra than it did to use their head.
Some looting, in any system, is understandable. When players push those boundaries, heap it on until they learn discretion. Don't tell them to stop it altogether - be sure to enforce the idea that some of what they're doing isn't a bad idea. Use overkill to encourage moderation.
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Ok, I don't usually condone this type of think, but sometimes, it just has to be done....
This is what I call a "F**K over Waldo" run <evil grin>
That's a pretty epic scenario, Reaver.
Almost makes me want to act like a complete ass in game on the off chance the GM decides to throw one of these at us. >.>
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If only one person thinks there is a problem and it looks like the others 'are being too passive', then chances are that there actually isn't a real problem and the 'passive' ones are just basically blowing it off.
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If only one person thinks there is a problem and it looks like the others 'are being too passive', then chances are that there actually isn't a real problem and the 'passive' ones are just basically blowing it off.
Of course, when several of the others admit there's a problem, those chances aren't as high as you think.
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I'm all for taking a time out to discuss an issue with a player concerning his attitude and behavior. But sometimes that doesn't work.
Then you are left with two choices. remove him from the game, or "be an a**hole".
Some player's have it in their heads that as a player they can do anything they like..... regardless of what the rules say. This is usually when I show them that, while they can do a lot as a PC, their actions can, and do have consequences. If this leaves them a crippled pile of goo... so be it.
.... and some people just like to watch the world burn. these I ask to leave. and if they don't, Then I usually do. If leaving is not an option for either of us.... then I employ the "Gonna f**k you over until you smarten up" approach up top. It is amazing how fast some people learn that it is simply easier to "play by the rules" then spend hours remaking characters, only to watch them suffer some gruesome fate 2 or 3 games sessions later.
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Ahahah....I pretty much always look for more loot when playing an infiltrator/thief. ;D
Stealing is fun RP-wise. Even if you don't get much out of it you still feel like "Haha, I got their stuff anyway." Even when playing magical characters i will keep an eye out on jobs for magical goods and try to turn them. It honestly just seems like good business to me and what a Shadowrunner would do.
Petty thievery. Honestly, it sounds like this guy just gets off on RP-ing that. Even so, my characters would never put someone on the team in danger or stay against a bomb countdown, jump into a pit of AIDS etc.
From what else you've described though it sounds like this issue runs much deeper. :( If he's intentionally running all over you and the group and ruining your games that you put work into then not only does he not respect you as a GM but he doesn't respect YOU or the group as people.
If he is nt listening to out of game discussions then I would advise what Reaver said and use the "Gonna f**k you over until you smarten up" approach. ;) "Hey! Who put that sniper there?!" ;D
Another thing that is important. If your group likes you as a GM and want you to continue then they should have the balls to stick up for themselves and you. If they don't then I really honestly believe you're better off without. :(
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The bane of the D&D style thief? items. Things that screw you over from the moment you decide to touch them . . .
There are plenty of secrets in Shadowrun that you just don't want to know about. Just like reading books in Cthulhu, snooping gets you in trouble. Put those things in his path. If you steal enough nodes from black sites eventually you'll happen across a [captive dissonant sprite/corp loyal AI/awful hypervirus/paydata that'll get you D-E-D fast]. Sticky fingers at the talismonger's warehouse? Hope you like dealing with [the mage who's ritual that can only be performed once per cosmic cycle you're holding up/devious inhabitation spirit trapped in an innocuous object/consignment object from the Yakuza].
Rather than just grumble and funnel his stuff into the black market never to be heard from again, let them be the seeds for stories. Fuck over Waldo (which is perfectly in-genre) is once such seed, and after you've used that, you can find another. Hell, a solid chunk of the time that should probably happen with the legitimate run target ;D
And if he's keeping it from his team, and it puts them in danger, I've had parties sell out the thief for the bounty.
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Shoot...I think I might use the **** over Waldo scenario as part of a normal storyline...My players aren't
QUITE paranoid enough right now.
Also, frankly, I do not see much of an issue with extra stealing on a run, provided it makes sense. It CAN be
the mark of a professional, after all, if they come across something very rare and hard to get normally, and
they take it. This is how my group got their Tiburon and Appaloosa, after all. But, there is the difference between
Professionals and Amateurs. As Pink Mohawk as my game has been, my players stick to their objective, and don't
go off mission.
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Have one more talk with him. Make your issues perfectly clear. Do not tell him there will be consequences. Don't tell him what you'll do if he doesn't listen, even if he asks about it. Either he listens, or he'll find out.
Prepare a backlash. A heavy one. It doesn't matter what. Waldo is too much, but prepare a backlash. Make sure it doesn't depend on what exactly is stolen.
Run another run or two. Then, give them an easy run for a change. A milk run, too easy, or so it seems. If they only steal what they're supposed to, they have a car chase afterwards, have to toss the tail, give the item to the Johnson and they're in the clear. They'll see the Johnson on the news later, killed horribly "in what appears to be a mob-related shooting". But nobody's going after them, since they already delivered the item and who cares then.
Sticky fingers decides to steal things? They're no longer going after the Johnson. They're going after the party. Make sure at least one of them dies before they finally get given a chance to surrender. If they surrender, let them execute the thief, take the stolen goods and leave. Oh, make sure to kneecap the others. If they run away with the goods, they'll be hunted down until the stolen goods are recovered. The enemy will know who to gun for, so someone's going to be the focus of most of the fire. If they're smart enough to leave the goods, then run away without them, make sure they still go on until the thief is dead. After that, let a megaphone laugh tell them "run on now kids, and remember not to fuck with us again".
If he (or anyone else) burns Edge to survive, fine. Just keep in mind that if someone goes down, the enemy will make sure to doubletap if they got the chance. Twice. So the scars will be nasty.
If they're still willing to play after that, go on and do runs. Next time anyone steals the wrong goods, make sure someone comes after them again and they recognize the style. After digging they'll find out that these guys put themselves for hire as recovery team and like sending message.
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It can be effective to have repurcussions from the excessive looting that fall down on the heads of all the team of runners, not just the looter in question. Quite often they will do your policing for you. You don't need to utterly destroy them either. Just cost them money or reputation and make sure the team knows what caused it. Most players will get tired of it quite fast.
If you're feeling exceptionally cruel, then have an outside party offer the looter an extremely rare/expensive item in exchange for betraying his team and the current Mr. Johnson on this particular run. (Make sure it's not something that will appear to actually get their team killed or they are less likely to bite) Then later on have the betrayal revealed.
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I think I'll hit their reputation. Johnson isn't going to like finding out they're doing side jobs on his dime and their Fixer isn't going to give them jobs that require a level of trust. The main problem I have is that if he keeps this up then there's no incentive. They are doing this to eat and preferably retire at the end of their career. Hell by now they should be drawing a lot of unwanted attention so an ambush might be appropriate.
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Did he steal anything important at any point? Chickens could be coming home to roost.
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'Suggest' that he reads the section on stealing on the job in Attitude before the next session. If he continues stealing, have some of those things burn his contacts. Soon, he's going to get a crap rep, which will affect his team rep as well, which will affect the jobs they get called in on. And he'll also have contacts who will stop moving stuff for him, or who may just stop talking to him altogether. Just remember, it doesn't matter what the actual item stolen was. Sometimes, just the fact that an item was stolen from X place at Y time when Z thing happened is enough for the people who may want to dish a bit of payback to connect the dots.
In general, stealing things that aren't part of the job is a bad idea, unless the thefts are a cover to distract people from the actual job (stealing a bunch of stuff from the warehouse to disguise the fact that you switched the shipping labels on a few containers to redirect a few shipments to the client, for instance).
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'Suggest' that he reads the section on stealing on the job in Attitude before the next session. If he continues stealing, have some of those things burn his contacts. Soon, he's going to get a crap rep, which will affect his team rep as well, which will affect the jobs they get called in on. And he'll also have contacts who will stop moving stuff for him, or who may just stop talking to him altogether. Just remember, it doesn't matter what the actual item stolen was. Sometimes, just the fact that an item was stolen from X place at Y time when Z thing happened is enough for the people who may want to dish a bit of payback to connect the dots.
In general, stealing things that aren't part of the job is a bad idea, unless the thefts are a cover to distract people from the actual job (stealing a bunch of stuff from the warehouse to disguise the fact that you switched the shipping labels on a few containers to redirect a few shipments to the client, for instance).
That is a rulebook I have been intentionally avoiding, own the PDF, but avoiding. I'll have to read it.
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There is very little in the way of 'rules' in Attitude. It is, however, very big on worldbuilding, and has a prime example of how stealing on the job can burn you. Riser stole a fancy gun on a datasteal from a weapons lab once, and took it to his gunsmith contact to get modified. Turns out fancy guns going missing from the R&D lab raises red flags, and caused heat to fall on his contact, which caused Riser to have to hot foot it for a while. If a player is stealing things that aren't part of the job all the time, then introduce him to consequences. Including, perhaps, 'gifting' him with the Signature quality, which he'll have to buy off as normal.
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think I'll hit their reputation. Johnson isn't going to like finding out they're doing side jobs on his dime and their Fixer isn't going to give them jobs that require a level of trust. The main problem I have is that if he keeps this up then there's no incentive. They are doing this to eat and preferably retire at the end of their career. Hell by now they should be drawing a lot of unwanted attention so an ambush might be appropriate.
You can reward them too. The infamous carrot that is not an orange stick. You can have the Johnson instruct them to definitely do not touch or interfere with anything in the building. And give a bonus if they follow orders. You can do this with killing guards too. Avoiding killing guards and you get a bonus.
Welcome back Mir.
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You can reward them too. The infamous carrot that is not an orange stick. You can have the Johnson instruct them to definitely do not touch or interfere with anything in the building. And give a bonus if they follow orders. You can do this with killing guards too. Avoiding killing guards and you get a bonus.
Yeah...I am looking forward in my group to when a Johnson gives them a job where they are not to kill or injure anyone.
It will be interesting to see my current group of players try to pull that off: Heavy Weapon Troll, Ex-merc Combat Mage, ex-Red Samurai, psychopathic Razorboy, and a Technomancer. The troll one shotted a Force 5 Fire Blood Spirit...Note: not one rounded,
one SHOTTED (HV HMG loaded with Stick n Shock....)
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First run of my current Campaign: Johnson wanted a non-lethal message sent. Offered the players gelrounds at normal prices. Everyone without non-lethal immediately bought him out. (I nerfed SnS to use Taser ranges.) Later, one guy used a machine gun to fire through a wall. With gelrounds.
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Was the wall stunned?
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It was. So was the guy behind it who got hit for 9S.
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Oo
How can gel rounds penetrate a wall? I guess it was not a very solid wall, cause rule wise, I'm not even sure that you could pass through a dividing wall, which is quite easy with a gun with regular ammo.
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There's rules for shooting through walls, needing enough damage and adding to the armor of the person being shot at (+ blind fire penalty if he hadn't been using Radar). He needed 5 net hits to be able to pierce the wall, if I recall correctly. Since it was an unopposed test, that took just a bit of luck.
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Yes, shooting people through walls is always more effective when they don't know its coming.
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Yes, shooting people through walls is always more effective when they don't know its coming.
Yeah, at the very least they'll lose Reaction, dodge, and gymnastics. (Or combat pool in 3rd ed.) This will probaly balance out the blind fire and the material penalties, especially if the material is weak. Of course, security councious targets will know this and probaly take steps to have hardened and armored materials not only on walls, but also windows.
Even after the target takes cover also, continuous fire say from heavy machine guns may tear up cover such as furniture over several rounds. Which is why it can be an effective tactic to just blow the hell out of a house. Of course this assumes the house is weak enough. It also assumes you aren't in a zone where the cops or security teams will get there really fast.
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Personally, I like to leave those discussions to Mr. Barrett with his APDS and his Ultrawideband Radar.
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Personally, I like to leave those discussions to Mr. Barrett with his APDS and his Ultrawideband Radar.
Hilarious. :)
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@OP: You might want to read (or reread) the section "Be Smart and Don’t be Greedy" in the companion, page 27. I took the liberty to quote the most important part that basically addresses your issue directly:
Nothing rats you out like trying to hock some Red Samurai
armor you snagged on your last run. At that point, you’ve made
nailing you to the wall a matter of keeping face for the Reds—and
you’ve probably PO’d your last Johnson.
Basically, if he feels the need to stick his fingers into the pie, he shouldn't be surprised if he gets burned. Corps rarely do revenge, but they do save face every day all day long. What's more, Mr. J. isn't interested in runners that will make trouble more likely. They are called shadowrunners because they stay in the dark. If he keeps tiptoing into the light, don't be afraid to hit him with the big hammer.
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I'm currently on Mission 2 of Season 4 and I thought the timed element of it was superb fun. My GM even got out a timer on his Ipad and made us do our planning in real time. Gave a real sense of urgency and excitement to it.
Try a run with a break in where the Johnson gives you a specific time limit to get in and out. And leaves no time for extra looting because you've got to fly to get it done in time. You could try using a real timer and pausing it whenever there's combat.
If they go marginly over in time but only by seconds, fine just drop their pay. If they go significantly over, they miss their meet with the Johnson and end up with hot goods and no pay. Or just get caught by overwhelming force as most the security team returns from the distraction the Johnson had arranged.
Obviously it's only a one off win. But it might help.
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I'm currently on Mission 2 of Season 4 and I thought the timed element of it was superb fun. My GM even got out a timer on his Ipad and made us do our planning in real time. Gave a real sense of urgency and excitement to it.
Try a run with a break in where the Johnson gives you a specific time limit to get in and out. And leaves no time for extra looting because you've got to fly to get it done in time. You could try using a real timer and pausing it whenever there's combat.
If they go marginly over in time but only by seconds, fine just drop their pay. If they go significantly over, they miss their meet with the Johnson and end up with hot goods and no pay. Or just get caught by overwhelming force as most the security team returns from the distraction the Johnson had arranged.
Obviously it's only a one off win. But it might help.
If you do well at a job, you're likely to be asked to do a repeat. If one Johnson notices he can get actually decent service out of this otherwise bum team that keeps on snagging trophies, by setting a time limit, then guess what every other Johnson who hears about it is going to do?
Reputations work this way. Jobs that the party is good at, they get more of. Jobs they screw up on, they don't get. Ever again. Early in their careers, they have some leeway, as nobody knows them well enough to pin a job set to their name, but later, breaking out of the mould requires burning your rep and starting anew.
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If I were you I'd just make half of what he takes end up being worthless. You'd have to be subtle, but I don't think it's unreasonable for this data to require high level matrix authentication or it bricks once it leaves the host, or for the run to be timed and there just isn't enough wiggle room for that kind of thing.
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I have a question for the OP, and i apologize if it has already been asked and answered andi just missed it, but what type of resistance have they been facing? Are thier runs primarily again only A rating corps or AAA rating corps? Are they going against low level gangers or the yakuza? also who are they doing the runs for? answers to these questions can help you decide to retaliate with in story limits if at all.
I know ran into the same problem when I first started doing runs and a good portion of the probelm was that the players coulndt wrap thier minds around exactly how powerful an AAA corp can actually be. Most people just picture walmart of mc dondalds and theyfigure take whatever youc an get whats the worst they can do. I had to explain and eventually demonstrate to my players that this wasn't the case. It cost them a PC and burned all their contacts in Seattle but they got the point and were more...cautious in Boston.
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Ok, I don't usually condone this type of think, but sometimes, it just has to be done....
This is what I call a "F**K over Waldo" run <evil grin>
<SNIP>
I so want to play in one of your campaigns. When I read the first post this was exactly what I was thinking along with the scene from Johnny Mnemonic where he's told by his Hacker contact "Get off my board, man. You are too hot! You're a hit waiting to happen!"
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Ok, I don't usually condone this type of think, but sometimes, it just has to be done....
This is what I call a "F**K over Waldo" run <evil grin>
<SNIP>
I so want to play in one of your campaigns. When I read the first post this was exactly what I was thinking along with the scene from Johnny Mnemonic where he's told by his Hacker contact "Get off my board, man. You are too hot! You're a hit waiting to happen!"
lol, My dance card is pretty full ATM :D
Got my 2500+ karma group (characters started waaaay back in 2nd edition.. that got ported and played to 3rd... and then into 4th.. and soon to be 5th edition.
And I got my "Rook" campaign... they are basically at 50-100 karma.. and still getting used to SR in general... this week's topic: "The Matrix, and how it f**ks you" :P (complete with adventure, and learning guides!)
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I'm sure this guy is a real nuisance but stealing extra stuff is very realistic, especially if it's quite valuable. I would suggest you give more consideration to what kind of things are lying around after a run, and how easy it is to take them. The higher the value, the greater the chance that someone is coming asap to get you out of there, and that threat could be larger than everyone that just got fragged. I like to instill a feeling in my games that the clock always matters, you can't just sit down and have a picnic, then head out an hour later. Police, other shadowrunners, elite security, even military could be coming if you hang around too long. Once this player puts the group at risk on multiple occasions while he's trying to steal a little extra, they might just intervene for you.
But I agree that you should just find a new group, having someone that really irritates you while you're trying to enjoy yourself is just not ideal. One thing I've learned in life is that people don't change until they decide to themselves. You can't ask him to change, he won't. You can either work around the problem with techniques like the one described above or you should leave.
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Once this player puts the group at risk on multiple occasions while he's trying to steal a little extra, they might just intervene for you.
I actually had this talk with my players regarding a certain person and they all agreed that if that player was turning into a security hazard for them, they would have no remorse in "taking care of the problem". Some of them have even started contingencies of selling him out to a corporation should he get too "unprofessional"
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Once this player puts the group at risk on multiple occasions while he's trying to steal a little extra, they might just intervene for you.
I actually had this talk with my players regarding a certain person and they all agreed that if that player was turning into a security hazard for them, they would have no remorse in "taking care of the problem". Some of them have even started contingencies of selling him out to a corporation should he get too "unprofessional"
That... Could get bad. Talk to the player, not to everyone else behind his back.
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Once this player puts the group at risk on multiple occasions while he's trying to steal a little extra, they might just intervene for you.
I actually had this talk with my players regarding a certain person and they all agreed that if that player was turning into a security hazard for them, they would have no remorse in "taking care of the problem". Some of them have even started contingencies of selling him out to a corporation should he get too "unprofessional"
That... Could get bad. Talk to the player, not to everyone else behind his back.
We HAVE talked to him before when it came to other games and this one as well. He does the same excuse of "I'm just role playing". I don't anticipate him doing anything crazy, but it's a pretty hardcore group of players and they all end up working for the same goals (in this case: money), so if someone is preventing that, they might just opt to leave him out of a job once and have him do his own thing. And we have spoke to him before regarding the enjoyment of progressing a story and not doing something that would absolutely halt progression, sometimes people are just stubborn. Will it happen? Probably not, but I will offer him ways out in-game to not get fragged by his fellow PCs.
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Be aware that with this kind of thing the difference between character conflict (which is all right) and player conflict (which isn't) can get sort of blurred.
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Well, just make sure he's looped into the other discussion - otherwise, you WILL just create more problems. Remind him that the role-playing argument can be used to justify actions against him as well if his actions should be to the detriment of the team.
Whenever player characters are taking action against each other, it MUST be absolutely understood that the conflict is purely in game. It is not possible to have an in game solution to an out of game problem.
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Certainly agree with you there and it is something I will be keeping in mind if and when the issue comes up. It's not a huge predominant problem, but sometimes I can see that look on other players' face when this guy says he wants to do something and they all say, "Why...?"
Either way, I do appreciate the words and advice.
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Okay, I've run into similar issues. On the other hand, I've had players ask if the PvP lamp is lit, and I ask them why their PC would take out a fellow party member. If I feel the reason fits the CHARACTER'S reasoning, I will usually okay it. But then, my group sounds to be somewhat unique in certain regards. Taking the example of the all deadly group(which I've run, and played as one of), these are all professionals at applied violence. They should be getting hired to apply lethal force in a definitive matter. When they aren't hired for a job like that, they should be keeping it to an absolute minimum. One game, this group was "hired"(did it for free) to clean a gang out of a church without killing any of them. They did it for free because the plan got them out of the church, as a matter of fact, the plan wiped out the entire gang, but none of the PCs did anything more lethal than SnS rounds and a Stunball.
I also had that group gank one of their own because they showed a distinct lack of professionalism. An old group of mine would have done it after dealing with the offender's indiscretions one time too many. I've played a klepto in Shadowrun. Most Johnsons wouldn't touch him, and I understood why. A guy that steals a megacorporate server to play video games is not a professional, and you're supposed to be playing professionals, unless you're doing a street level game. At that point, you're talented amateurs. If you're doing a Prime Runners campaign, you are playing the cream of the crop, professionally speaking. Most of your complications are likely going to come from the personal angle, rather than the professional one. One GM was annoyed with me because I recommended watching the Expendables to a new player. I did this because every so often, even Prime Runners will get a wild hare up their ass about something they've seen, and refund the money to do what they think is right.
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This is my thing where is he putting it? Items weight an amount, he shouldn't even be able to get a back up server and walk out with it. How do you know all the data on it is worth anything what if the encryption is so huge it's pointless. What if the file is broken down into many pieces on many servers?
So I would cash the servers value at $0.
Picking up weapons and such where is he putting all these weapons in a bag? If he's lugging around this bag how heavy is it? When it gets sort of full lets give him two freebie weapons to take, now three your pushing it. You now start getting minuses for weight which I'm sure is in the book. If not I'd add -1 AGI after every X amount or an amount of weapons that would be difficult to carry. Otherwise he drops it on the ground in order to regain AGI. Making him waste a simple and then another to pick it up later.
The group would start to tell him to pick it up, or be left behind.
I have a player exactly like yours he's picked up one item so far in the last session because he had very little chance to take anything else due to all the heat.
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This is my thing where is he putting it? Items weight an amount, he shouldn't even be able to get a back up server and walk out with it. How do you know all the data on it is worth anything what if the encryption is so huge it's pointless. What if the file is broken down into many pieces on many servers?
So I would cash the servers value at $0.
Picking up weapons and such where is he putting all these weapons in a bag? If he's lugging around this bag how heavy is it? When it gets sort of full lets give him two freebie weapons to take, now three your pushing it. You now start getting minuses for weight which I'm sure is in the book. If not I'd add -1 AGI after every X amount or an amount of weapons that would be difficult to carry. Otherwise he drops it on the ground in order to regain AGI. Making him waste a simple and then another to pick it up later.
The group would start to tell him to pick it up, or be left behind.
I have a player exactly like yours he's picked up one item so far in the last session because he had very little chance to take anything else due to all the heat.
One of my players were smart and ended up calling one his contacts (a go-gang member) to take the bikes/equipment left behind after their combat. He'll end up only making around 30% or so after the fencing + paying gang.
Taking a gun or two might work out, but it can get very cumbersome. I've allowed them to take ammo, though, that's a little easier to carry.
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He wasn't taking guns... he was taking accounting information, data on unrelated projects, personnel data, communication files of interest, ect. The guy likes to play sneaky rouge like characters with minimal gear... I finally dropped the hammer as it were by having a disgruntled corp Johnson lure him into a trap. Long story short I enjoyed invoking the chunky salsa rule after his own ego lead him into a car with a self-destruct system (he knew it was fishy, he SAID it was fishy, he still climbed in.) After that he started insisting we stop playing and start a Palladium game. I won't touch that system so I used it as my chance to bow out... Now I'm stuck looking for a new group. At least I don;t have to deal with him anymore.
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Whereabouts are you located? If it's in the Hampton Roads area of Virginia, I might be able to help you out.
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He wasn't taking guns... he was taking accounting information, data on unrelated projects, personnel data, communication files of interest, ect. The guy likes to play sneaky rouge like characters with minimal gear... I finally dropped the hammer as it were by having a disgruntled corp Johnson lure him into a trap. Long story short I enjoyed invoking the chunky salsa rule after his own ego lead him into a car with a self-destruct system (he knew it was fishy, he SAID it was fishy, he still climbed in.) After that he started insisting we stop playing and start a Palladium game. I won't touch that system so I used it as my chance to bow out... Now I'm stuck looking for a new group. At least I don;t have to deal with him anymore.
Dang. That's pretty hardcore.
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Whereabouts are you located? If it's in the Hampton Roads area of Virginia, I might be able to help you out.
Sorry, try Colorado
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Well, I tried. Admittedly, it was because I want somebody else to run Shadowrun.
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I applaud your decision to hand him his characters head with a trap. When players overly meta-game like this, the first time I tell them to lay off the super-looting meta gaming is ruining the game for everyone, the second time I don't give any reward for the mission. The third time I kill their character. If they are metagaming like this, they weren't enjoying what you were putting out any ways so might as well get rid of them.
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You can reward them too. The infamous carrot that is not an orange stick. You can have the Johnson instruct them to definitely do not touch or interfere with anything in the building. And give a bonus if they follow orders. You can do this with killing guards too. Avoiding killing guards and you get a bonus.
Good ideas - I had a minor variation in the form of a shadow spirit that they released from a sewer (the mission was supposed to be a toxic shaman extermination). Its DV depends on the number of lethalities the player has generated, something like the Karma attack by Final Fantasy's Tonberry. The group has been lucky in dealing a lot of stun damage so far, but one of the characters is quite a bit of a bloodlust so it won't be long before his character is looking at the possibility of nearing overflow from a single hit.
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He wasn't taking guns... he was taking accounting information, data on unrelated projects, personnel data, communication files of interest, ect. The guy likes to play sneaky rouge like characters with minimal gear... I finally dropped the hammer as it were by having a disgruntled corp Johnson lure him into a trap. Long story short I enjoyed invoking the chunky salsa rule after his own ego lead him into a car with a self-destruct system (he knew it was fishy, he SAID it was fishy, he still climbed in.) After that he started insisting we stop playing and start a Palladium game. I won't touch that system so I used it as my chance to bow out... Now I'm stuck looking for a new group. At least I don;t have to deal with him anymore.
I don't see a problem with that, your ultimately the one who decides what he grabbed, and it's value. Why not just keep it low? Otherwise why not just run the clock out on the matrix and have GOD locate him. Intervene with physical bodies? After to many times have GOD catch him on camera, after that Lone Star has a picture of his face. If hes anywhere else bring in back up security after the IC finds him. Force him to trip alarms in order to feed his greed. Leading to a potential TPK, one incident probably would of had him backing up a bit and thinking twice. Otherwise drop him some bread crumbs 1k or something per piece of data.
Say for instance he got a 1,000,000 cred file. Doesn't mean the fixers going to dole that out or that the PCs character can even determine that is the value. If it's fixed items such as cars bikes ect,. that's when you have an issue because that has a fixed value. The only way he could make any significant money is if you failed to prevent him from doing it by not giving him enough opposition/consequence.
Even when for instance someone above said the would contact another person to come pick up the gear. This would rarely work. First off they would have to be in their own country (not a corp, ameri-indian ect). Even then why are Lone Star not responding or Knight Errand? There must be a really good reason such as the place they were in was heavily gang territory. In this case the guys picking up the gear are probably already dead as the gangers respond to the location of where their buddies just died. If it's corp stuff it's just implausible. Theres a reason we're all called shadowrunners our lives depend on not being detected and getting in and out as fast as possible.
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I'm pretty sure this is 4th edition, since the first post was June 8th. So no GOD.
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I'm pretty sure this is 4th edition, since the first post was June 8th. So no GOD.
GOD existed, and has existed since Crash 2.0. The problem was that until 5th, they were paper tigers.
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I'm pretty sure this is 4th edition, since the first post was June 8th. So no GOD.
GOD existed, and has existed since Crash 2.0. The problem was that until 5th, they were paper tigers.
I wouldn't say "paper Tigers"...
GOD is on par with dragons, greater freeform shadow spirits, Harlyquin, and other plot devices. Not a thing the average GM needs to be using.
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I'm pretty sure this is 4th edition, since the first post was June 8th. So no GOD.
GOD existed, and has existed since Crash 2.0. The problem was that until 5th, they were paper tigers.
My point was the "Otherwise why not just run the clock out on the matrix and have GOD locate him" thing is something from 5e.
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GOD and DG are quite scary in 5th edition. I just noticed that the G-Men get the equivalent of an owner's mark on all devices currently on their grid. (pg. 360) As if being Superhuman Prime Runners wasn't enough.
On the sale of information. Run it like stealing for the thieves guild in fantasy games, as opposed to just doing random thefts. Sure you could go randomly steal, but the thieve's guild knows where the best loot is. Except that in SR, the guild is the Mr. Johnsons. Sure the Johnson and his corp masters are only going to pay you a fraction of what you've gained them. But they know where the best stuff is, be it info or physical objects. Part of your job as GM is to make it more attractive overall to go on shadowruns.
You can pay them something for random data, just don't go overboard. Unless you really want the campaign revolve around random data steals. Which is what happens on the Genesis video game actually, and it's tons of fun as a solo player. Hell, if you have one player, then just do that over and over. I put hundreds of hours into that on the video game. Good times.
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He wasn't taking guns... he was taking accounting information, data on unrelated projects, personnel data, communication files of interest, ect. The guy likes to play sneaky rouge like characters with minimal gear... I finally dropped the hammer as it were by having a disgruntled corp Johnson lure him into a trap. Long story short I enjoyed invoking the chunky salsa rule after his own ego lead him into a car with a self-destruct system (he knew it was fishy, he SAID it was fishy, he still climbed in.) After that he started insisting we stop playing and start a Palladium game. I won't touch that system so I used it as my chance to bow out... Now I'm stuck looking for a new group. At least I don;t have to deal with him anymore.
I don't see a problem with that, your ultimately the one who decides what he grabbed, and it's value. Why not just keep it low? Otherwise why not just run the clock out on the matrix and have GOD locate him. Intervene with physical bodies? After to many times have GOD catch him on camera, after that Lone Star has a picture of his face. If hes anywhere else bring in back up security after the IC finds him. Force him to trip alarms in order to feed his greed. Leading to a potential TPK, one incident probably would of had him backing up a bit and thinking twice. Otherwise drop him some bread crumbs 1k or something per piece of data.
Say for instance he got a 1,000,000 cred file. Doesn't mean the fixers going to dole that out or that the PCs character can even determine that is the value. If it's fixed items such as cars bikes ect,. that's when you have an issue because that has a fixed value. The only way he could make any significant money is if you failed to prevent him from doing it by not giving him enough opposition/consequence.
Even when for instance someone above said the would contact another person to come pick up the gear. This would rarely work. First off they would have to be in their own country (not a corp, ameri-indian ect). Even then why are Lone Star not responding or Knight Errand? There must be a really good reason such as the place they were in was heavily gang territory. In this case the guys picking up the gear are probably already dead as the gangers respond to the location of where their buddies just died. If it's corp stuff it's just implausible. Theres a reason we're all called shadowrunners our lives depend on not being detected and getting in and out as fast as possible.
SR4...
Also, you try telling me that Ares black budget information wouldn't sell for a pretty penny to just about any other AAA?
Great dragons, greater freeform shadow spirits, and Harlyquin... three things I wish would go die in a fire.
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Dude wants to grab a bunch of crap, okay, sure, grab tons of it. Data? Sure, no problem.
Worth Millions huh?
Yep, and I'm sure they'll just pay you those millions rather than pay a rival shadowrun team 20k to wire the building you live in for demolition.
The problem with having a million dollars isn't having one million dollars, it's the people who KNOW you have one million dollars that will make life rough on you.
As soon as he runs his mouth about hiring runners to protect himself, have them get bought out and put rounds in his skull, or just walk off with the data.
You should also look up the terms Toecutter, Stand-over man and Faraday Cage.
There isn't a form of electronic communication available in this century, or the next dozen, that will get any kind of signal through a faraday cage and all that is, is a lightly electrified cage.
I would use this as a way to bring about an adventure honestly. One where the pc with all the money ends up spending it all to stay alive.
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You should also look up the terms Toecutter, Stand-over man and Faraday Cage.
Don't forget Bagman, and there's an Italian term I can't remember for the life of me that is similar, and very Sicilian in outlook.
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Here's the thing, the Toe-cutter is a uniquely australian concept. A criminal that preys on more successful criminals by torturing them.
With the reliance on wireless signal for cyberwear, smartguns, phones, decks and remotes, one Faraday Cage nullifies all of that. No wireless is possible in a Faraday Cage. Also, it will interfere with unshielded electronics to a lesser extent. So some cyberwear may not even function at all.
Now, how do you get the Mr. Sticky-Fingers into the Faraday Cage so he can meet Mr. Toe-cutter? That's where the Stand-over man comes in. Here's a criminal who cons other crooks. He masquerades as Mr Johnson and it's all over but the shouting and who mops up the blood that Mr Sticky-Fingers leaves behind. Cuz Mr. Stick-Fingers can only hold out so long before he gives up the money. The Toe-cutter may even let him live, provided he doesn't waste a lot of time giving up the money.
Just an idea or two. I hope it helps :D
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Give you a couple notes:
1) The Law of Diminishing Returns. Not everything you steal has value; you have a maximum amount of stuff you can steal. The more you steal, the less your fixer is going to pay for each item.
2) The Law of Inevitable Consequence: The more you steal, the less available to be stolen by other thieves; you and your bank accounts become the target. The Johnson may require you to not touch anything but what he's paying you to steal - and when you don't keep your grimy paws off the other stuff, well, he's not going to be the only one displeased.
This can be handled purely ICly, but taking the player aside and mentioning the above two rules may ... assist him in understanding.
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You should also look up the terms Toecutter, Stand-over man and Faraday Cage.
Don't forget Bagman, and there's an Italian term I can't remember for the life of me that is similar, and very Sicilian in outlook.
Is that from the protection money paid - Pizzo? In Sicily it's 'To wet someones beak'.
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No, it's an outsider who's brought in to clean house. Everyone's house.
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I had a very similar problem with a Group new to Shadowrun One of the players always stopped to loot bodies steal stuff lying around etc.
As he did not get any immediate punishment for doing this the rest of the team started doing so as well to the point they would steal
data and everything else they could when hired to do a job.
For 4-5 runs there were no repercussions. But after that the jobs they were being offered started paying less.
At first it was Johnsons unwilling/harder to Negotiate with for bonuses, then smaller base pay for the jobs
Then the jobs they were offered started being less glamorous instead of Hitting a corp lab to steal some valuable
prototype their jobs started to be more go there and rough that guy up they had also started to accumulate Notoriety.
This went on for anothe 4-5 runs until one of the players got annoyed and demanded that his Fixer tell him why he
was only coming up with these kind of shit jobs in the end the Fixer told them.
Sorry guys its your rep people hire you to do a job then all kinds of stuff starts showing up on the market stuff that
is directly connected to the job you were hired to do. I have been trying to offer you up to Johnson's looking for teams
but the only ones willing to hire are looking for thugs and they don't care what else happens during the Operation.
The group got pretty Miffed at this especially the primary sticky fingered one, they decided that they were just going to
do their Own runs set up and plan their own operations which i was fine with .
They soon learned that setting up a run and figuring out were to hit and what to steal was harder than they had tought.
Bribing people buying leads and having to do all kinds of runs just to find what was worth stealing started digging into
their cash reserves.
Things got even worse when they hit a company shipping electronics and stole a truck full of comlinks. Turned out the
corp had a deal with the Yakuza and the Yakz showed up telling the runners they better make Restitution or else.
Finally the group decided to try and rebuild their rep and begged a Johnson they had worked for before to give them a shot.
The Johnson finally gave them a job but told em that if anything that could be connected to the job ended up on the market
They could just forget his comcode.
The group went in did the job flawlessly nothing got stolen and they were back on their way to being a reputable Runner team
couple of runs later they were pulling in decent money rewards and looting was occasional and then usually for their own use.
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I had two fairly effective ways of dealing with this issue.
The first was an early on run. The job was to break into a minor facility and make minor changes to personnel data and obtain security codes. The personnel data was on hard copy as it hadn't been added to the server yet, and the codes were on the building's node. Involving hacker and team, yay.
Anyhow, run goes nice and smooth, they evade the relatively lax patrol, get the data, drop off the modified file into the personnel file cabnet to be added to the trix. Well, the place was a manufacturing plant and one of the players had the idea, "Hey, since this is basicly a small factory, they have to have a small nurse's station or something like that. Med supplies and drugs would sell easily.
So, I let him find it and sure enough, some painkillers, slap patches, medkits, a few of the less illegal mind enhancers that seemed appropriate, all inside a simple glass paneled cabinet. Locked. So the player decides to put some of his clothes against the glass to muffle the noise and break the glass. Works fine. He gets stuffs his pockets and meets up with the others and they vacate.
At the meeting the Johnson is all smiles while they sit at the table in the back room of the bar.
'The codes?"
"Right here." The face passes the datachip.
"So how did the run go?"
"No problems whatsoever."
"Oh good, because when I saw this, I got worried." The Johnson turns on the vidscreen behind him and a news story about a break-in at their facility was on the news. The story said that it looked like it was junkies and nothing else was taken.
"Hey, no big deal, they have no idea this was a run. They said junkies."
"No big deal... NO BIG DEAL!?" the Johnson get a furious look in his face. "Standard procedure after a break in is to CHANGE ALL THE CODES YOU IMBECILES! THIS IS AS USELESS TO ME NOW AS YOU ARE!!" And with that he snaps the datachip in his fingers. "I'll give you one more chance to get the codes and save your reputation and paycheck, at a reduction. But it has to be done tonight, and it has to be done right this time."
So the runners found themselves doing the same run again. Only this time for less pay and with the guards on full alert because they just got chewed out by their bosses for negligence.
The second thing I do to keep this in check is I always ask who or how they intend to sell the info. If they don't have options in who to sell to, the contact typically will figure it out and cut the deal way in their favor. "Don't like my price, fine. Who else you going to sell data that hot to? And in a week that paydata will be worth half what it is now, time is money when it's data. So go ahead, find someone else if you don't like my offer."
I once had them try to auction paydata on the matrix. Oh, it seemed to go real well at first. They provided credible evidence they had the real thing and everything. Course, as soon as the bids hit that magic number, the one where it costs just as much to hire other runners, the bidding suddenly stopped. Then the jamming and the bullets started soon after.
And for the really minor stuff I don't care much. Every now and then I'll throw in a commlink that has advanced modifications to make it self-destruct or shock the person who tries to use it without the right access or something, but I'll usually just let them have the standard 30% fenced gear amount. It usually doesn't seem too worth it when they realize they get less then a third of it's value.
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I had two fairly effective ways of dealing with this issue...
*clip* BUT -- nice dealing. On a side note about the following, though ...
I once had them try to auction paydata on the matrix. Oh, it seemed to go real well at first. They provided credible evidence they had the real thing and everything. Course, as soon as the bids hit that magic number, the one where it costs just as much to hire other runners, the bidding suddenly stopped. Then the jamming and the bullets started soon after.
Runners, remember that these services are exactly what the data haven of Asgard does - high-profile high-value data auctions, third party blind transfer, etc. Yeah, maybe they take a quarter, or a half, or three-quarters of the payday - but 33% of 750,000 is still twenty-five times the usual (read: Missions) payday of 10k ... ;)
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I had two fairly effective ways of dealing with this issue...
*clip* BUT -- nice dealing. On a side note about the following, though ...
I once had them try to auction paydata on the matrix. Oh, it seemed to go real well at first. They provided credible evidence they had the real thing and everything. Course, as soon as the bids hit that magic number, the one where it costs just as much to hire other runners, the bidding suddenly stopped. Then the jamming and the bullets started soon after.
Runners, remember that these services are exactly what the data haven of Asgard does - high-profile high-value data auctions, third party blind transfer, etc. Yeah, maybe they take a quarter, or a half, or three-quarters of the payday - but 33% of 750,000 is still twenty-five times the usual (read: Missions) payday of 10k ... ;)
Yes, but players are more geeedy then Megacorps. :D
You say "secure, safe, reliable, untraceable"
Players hear: "<white noise> 25-33% of MY MONEY <white noise> $30-50k lost of MY MONEY <white noise>"
Let's face it, if the players were playing "smart" they wouldn't be in nearly as many player created messes as they get into :p
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I had two fairly effective ways of dealing with this issue...
*clip* BUT -- nice dealing. On a side note about the following, though ...
I once had them try to auction paydata on the matrix. Oh, it seemed to go real well at first. They provided credible evidence they had the real thing and everything. Course, as soon as the bids hit that magic number, the one where it costs just as much to hire other runners, the bidding suddenly stopped. Then the jamming and the bullets started soon after.
Runners, remember that these services are exactly what the data haven of Asgard does - high-profile high-value data auctions, third party blind transfer, etc. Yeah, maybe they take a quarter, or a half, or three-quarters of the payday - but 33% of 750,000 is still twenty-five times the usual (read: Missions) payday of 10k ... ;)
Yes, but players are more geeedy then Megacorps. :D
Let's face it, if the players were playing "smart" they wouldn't be in nearly as many player created messes as they get into :p
Absolutely.
Shadowrunning by its' very nature is a crime. Why would you be so stupid as to draw more, unneeded attention to it?
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Players hear: "<white noise> 25-33% of MY MONEY <white noise> $30-50k lost of MY MONEY <white noise>"
Let's face it, if the players were playing "smart" they wouldn't be in nearly as many player created messes as they get into :p
Your players, maybe. Clearly you've never had me at the table. ;)
On an amusing-anecdotal side note, though, at DragonCon a couple years ago, I played with three hosers who figured that since it was "ShadowRUN, you know??" making noise was the way to go - right down there in a bar in the Ork Underground, with LOTS OF BACKUP HANDY. Since they'd turned down (or off, I don't recall) their commlinks, the 'quiet half' of the party couldn't come to their rescue, and to move the plot (and game) forward, the GM basically had to let them scrape out a 'barely won with hostages to get me out of the OU'. If I and the other three people I'd been playing alongside all day hadn't been 'okay, obviously idiots, but do we really want to crash their party at a Con and make our good GM shut them down by putting all three of them down??' we would have KO'd them, turned them over to the Underground, apologized to the bartender/owner, gotten the information (with a healthy bribe probably amounting to 50% of their payday) and completed the run without them.
... morons. The difference between SHADOWrunners and shadowRUNNERS right there. ;)
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Players hear: "<white noise> 25-33% of MY MONEY <white noise> $30-50k lost of MY MONEY <white noise>"
Let's face it, if the players were playing "smart" they wouldn't be in nearly as many player created messes as they get into :p
Your players, maybe. Clearly you've never had me at the table. ;)
On an amusing-anecdotal side note, though, at DragonCon a couple years ago, I played with three hosers who figured that since it was "ShadowRUN, you know??" making noise was the way to go - right down there in a bar in the Ork Underground, with LOTS OF BACKUP HANDY. Since they'd turned down (or off, I don't recall) their commlinks, the 'quiet half' of the party couldn't come to their rescue, and to move the plot (and game) forward, the GM basically had to let them scrape out a 'barely won with hostages to get me out of the OU'. If I and the other three people I'd been playing alongside all day hadn't been 'okay, obviously idiots, but do we really want to crash their party at a Con and make our good GM shut them down by putting all three of them down??' we would have KO'd them, turned them over to the Underground, apologized to the bartender/owner, gotten the information (with a healthy bribe probably amounting to 50% of their payday) and completed the run without them.
... morons. The difference between SHADOWrunners and shadowRUNNERS right there. ;)
I think the biggest issue is overcoming the D&D mindset...
In D&D, you go to the dungeon, kill things, loot everything not nailed down (or even that stuff if a player bought a pry bar!) go back to town, rest, repeat.
In SR, EVERYWHERE is the dungeon, there is no town to go to to rest and sell in safety....
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I think the biggest issue is overcoming the D&D mindset...
In D&D, you go to the dungeon, kill things, loot everything not nailed down (or even that stuff if a player bought a pry bar!) go back to town, rest, repeat.
In SR, EVERYWHERE is the dungeon, there is no town to go to to rest and sell in safety....
Generally yes, but not in this case. They knew they COULD be quiet, and we even SUGGESTED that they be quiet - but they decided, in front of us, that violence against a non-target from whom they just needed to get information was their first option - because they argued that 'running away from people wanting to kill you is the name of the game'. As compared to 'making it so that people don't even know you've been there'.
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I think the biggest issue is overcoming the D&D mindset...
In D&D, you go to the dungeon, kill things, loot everything not nailed down (or even that stuff if a player bought a pry bar!) go back to town, rest, repeat.
In SR, EVERYWHERE is the dungeon, there is no town to go to to rest and sell in safety....
Generally yes, but not in this case. They knew they COULD be quiet, and we even SUGGESTED that they be quiet - but they decided, in front of us, that violence against a non-target from whom they just needed to get information was their first option - because they argued that 'running away from people wanting to kill you is the name of the game'. As compared to 'making it so that people don't even know you've been there'.
So.... Bloody Pink Mohawk style..... Gotcha...
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Last I checked, murdering civilians fell in the "Quentin Tarantino movie" corner.
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No, Pink Screaming Mohawk, too.
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I'd say not. Pink Mohawk generally implies a level of "heroism." Typically I see the "civilian murder spree" more often in the "bad man in a bad world" amoral murder spree type games. I've always put those games in the "black hat" category.
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Don't know. Saints Row is pretty much the most Pink Mohawk game I know and there's plenty of civilian casualties there.
What constitutes being a 'hero' anyway?
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Pink Mohawk to be always just implied obvious visibility. In the case of Shadowrun, it means your character is easily-identified based on some credential(prominent horns, visible tattoos, a signature weapon, or even yes, a Pink Mohawk), whereas in D&D it could mean much the same thing but you don't hear about it. The reason for this is Shadowrun(read; running in the shadows) is a game where NOT being seen is the priority, considering you don't want most common people to witness the things you do. Whereas in D&D, it's the exact opposite(unless you're playing an espionage campaign), where you're big, badass hero-types who excel at kissing babies and slaying Orcs and looting the evil temple of treasure.
Anyways, as far as the issue at hand with sticky-fingered players, my philosophy, in Shadowrun and D&D, has always been quasi-realism. In that, to move the story forward, sometimes you let the players get away with stuff, but generally there are ALWAYS consequences. Everything people mentioned above is good depending on the situation. They might get garbage data, they might get a tagged item that a Corp can trace them with, they can only carry so much if they're stealing physical gear.
Personally, my favourite is the Johnson politely suggesting before a run that they ONLY go after their target item on a run and leave the rest alone. Say it's an illegal weapons testing center, and they're paid to make off with a prototype shotgun or something. They can go in, get the gun, get out unseen, and get paid. However, they'll have ample opportunity to filch a bunch of other, potentially-lucrative weapons and gear from the place. Now, street-level smarts would suggest to leave them alone, but the temptation may be too much. So they take a handful of these high-tech guns. They even think they're clever by scanning them for RFID tags and using a Tag Eraser on them. But here's where it gets fun.
These weapons were prototypes not just because they're a new model of small-arm, but because the company is testing a new type of RFID tag that lays dormant and supposedly undetectable until the trigger is activated, in this case if they pass through silent perimeter scanners at the edge of the facility. SO even if they scan for RFIDs before they leave, it does no good. The reason the Mr Johnson wanted that one specific gun is that it's the newest prototype top be shipped there, and hasn't had one of these dormant tags installed yet.
If they hock the guns at a pawn shop or Bob's Bullets or whatever, they see in the news or through a witness or something later on that a huge LoneStar/Knight Errant raid goes down on all these places. Basically the corp paid a LOT of money to get these back. Johnson is pissed, because he gave specific instructions to avoid this kind of clusterfuck, and the PCs deliberately went off-mission to try and get some extra Nuyen on the side. He then tells them in no uncertain terms that they get 60% of the agreed take, as the other 40% now goes to his expenses for having town leave town for a while because of the heat. As a consolation prize, due to their abject lack of professionalism, Mr Johnson is now deleting them from his contact list, as well as his network of fixers, contacts, and anyone else he knows. Meaning their notoriety takes a spike as well.
That's not to say that they can't stay in Seattle/other setting and find work elsewhere, just that they will likely find work a bit slim picking the next while, until they re-establish themselves through other people as a reliable, professional crew again.
Point of all this is it's not a final death knell for the team, and yes, the run was designed to test how well they take directions from the person who's goddamn paying their bills, so it was set up with a moderate chance for them to screw it up. However, it's designed as a wakeup call, which nearly every runner has had at some point in their career. If you agree to do X to get paid by Mr J, you go and do X, and that's it. That's where they get respect, and more people hire them for jobs. If they do X but also do Y, take a little J and T on the side, and maybe plug M full of holes, why in the Seven-Hells would ANYONE want to work with that team again?
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Two things come to mind. 1. He's able to steal more because he has the time. Don't give him any. Make extras real tough to get. 2. If you are not having fun, eliminate the problem player or go elsewhere. My biggest regrrt as a gm was tolerating the behavior. I thought the other players would be angry if I got rid of him. When he was gone they asked why I hadn't done it sooner.
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I had never heard of the terms before I came to these boards, but from what I gather is the two terms describe the game's level of realism and violence. (Can also describe the type of violence, as in over the top violence is Pink Mohawk) The two things kind of go together, because both in our world and the SR one, lots of homicides tend to cause consequences in a world that is even semi realistic.
Pink Mohawk favors more over the top and obvious violence. It also tends to tone down realism. So you'll get away with carrying larger guns in more parts of the city probaly, and also may not have to worry about licenses as much. Body counts will probaly be higher. Reputation as being a "badass" is probaly encouraged. ETC.
Black Trenchcoat: Most likely less violence over all. There may be violence, but an empathis is on realism and because of that there are consequences to violence, such as Homicide detectives and the like. You spend more time either avoiding murders or covering them up, maintaining disguises and identities and the like. Reputation as being a "professional" is encouraged, where a reputation as a psycopath can cause problems.
Many GMs blend these play styles in different ways. I like both realism and violence for example.
The GTA games are pretty much Pink Mohawk. Saints Row would probaly be screaming bloody Pink Mohawk because it's crazily over the top with hundreds of corpses left behind on a mission and getting in shootouts with judges, complete with robe. (I've never been in an SR game quite that bloody, but might be interesting sometime to try. I found it a bit much when I was playing the game)
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Seems more to me like "Pink Mohawk" is a pejorative term used to try shaming people who care more about having a fun time playing the game than with going into CSI levels of detail with things.
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I think "cinematic" is a bigger factor in Pink Mohawk than violence, really. While Pink Mohawk will typically have more violence as well, it's not a necessary factor (gel rounds are still quite handy to use).
As an example, in a short campaign which used some of the Season 4 Missions, I played a character whose real SIN ended up with a pretty high Public Awareness (granted, this was because of a cryptic message carved into the chest of a tortured-and-murdered Humanis member, but that was for non-Pink-Mohawk reasons - and what happens in the Underground stays in the Underground, right?). This meant that when we had to cause a bit of a riot at a rally, instead of trying to figure out a subtle way, my character bought a megaphone at a nearby Stuffer Shack, climbed on top of the biggest troll in the crowd, introduced herself, and invited everyone for pancakes, except for Humanis. They didn't take a shot at me, but they didn't have to - all we had to do was have the mage use an illusion spell to make people think they did, and a brawl started. The fight was no more violent than it would have been with a black trench coat approach, the only real difference was in the method used (and in me sticking around for the brawl).
As a side effect of this Pink Mohawk approach, we didn't have to deal with some media people trying to blackmail us into giving them info (which was supposed to be an issue with that mission), since they hadn't spotted us sneaking around. Basically my pink mohawk hid the trenchcoaty bits from sight.
Another example is a run where we had to locate some thugs who'd robbed a cyberware shipment in the civilized part of the Barrens. We tracked them down to a street doc where they were having the stolen ware installed, and instead of subtly working our way past security, two of us rode into the building on motorcycles (though we were polite enough to have others open the sliding doors first) and took out the security guards with gel round salvos. Although there were a lot of flying bullets, we made sure not to use any physical-damage attacks. (The hacker did end up claiming the van they'd stolen, though.)
Other things we've done that I don't think qualify as black trenchcoat include: vacuuming the place we're searching for evidence so the cleaning lady we just tied up won't get busted for throwing a party while her boss is away, and a <1 Essence character calmly notifying a bunch of spirits at a construction site belonging to a dragon that there would be a firefight soon (this ended up causing the dragon to drop by later (and a military helicopter followed it to investigate), meaning we basically had to cut the firefight short so both sides could flee for cover).
To put things differently, if you look at the spy business, I see black trenchcoat as being more like Mission: Impossible (the TV series, not the films), while pink mohawk is more like Burn Notice.
Seems more to me like "Pink Mohawk" is a pejorative term used to try shaming people who care more about having a fun time playing the game than with going into CSI levels of detail with things.
Actually, CSI:Miami I would prolly qualify as Pink Mohawk - a gun that shoots so many bullets it turns people into a red mist, flying to Brazil to take on a gang leader, a guy roasting himself by firing a rocket launcher while hiding inside a cement truck... all of which I absolutely loved.
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I'd agree with Ze. "Pink Mohawk" isn't about violence level it's about cinematic style and rule of cool dominating over a concern with "realism."
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Actually, Burn Notice would really, really like to be Black Trench coat, but when there's one Trench coat surrounded by nothing but Mohawks, you really have to improvise. Sometimes messily and all over the place. So, yes Burn Notice is Pink Mohawk. Much to Michael Westin's professional shame.
No, Pink Mohawk is not an attempt to shame people into going into CSI levels of detail. It can be a lot of run to play in a Pink Mohawk game, and run one. right now, my TT group is running as the bodyguards for a Catholic Priest. With the sort of immunity that goes with it, and so far have smuggled BTL chips through Heathrow, plotted to steal the Crown Jewels, but gave that up when the museum dropped a butt-ton of security around the powerful mage of a priest.
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I agree that it's not about shaming. It's a taste issue. It''d be like insulting someone for a preference for beer over wine. Also, many GMs make use of both elements. In fact, a very effective technique is to put elements from one of the two main styles in the opposite type campaign. The contrast works well. Making Michael Weston go on a Pink Mohawk mission with Fiona. And yeah, some characters are a certain style, no matter what campaign they are in.
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Actually, Burn Notice would really, really like to be Black Trench coat, but when there's one Trench coat surrounded by nothing but Mohawks, you really have to improvise. Sometimes messily and all over the place. So, yes Burn Notice is Pink Mohawk. Much to Michael Westin's professional shame.
"My name is Michael Westen. I used to be a black trenchcoat."
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"My name is Michael Westen. I used to be a black trenchcoat."
If he was black trenchcoat, the Russians wouldn't get terrified when they find out who he is.
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Depends on the nature of his assignments. Remember, his preferred method of getting the bad guy dead is to get the bad guy's side to do it for him. That scares the hell out of anyone who ever worked for the KGB.
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I agree that it's not about shaming. It's a taste issue. It''d be like insulting someone for a preference for beer over wine. Also, many GMs make use of both elements. In fact, a very effective technique is to put elements from one of the two main styles in the opposite type campaign. The contrast works well. Making Michael Weston go on a Pink Mohawk mission with Fiona. And yeah, some characters are a certain style, no matter what campaign they are in.
Well, they sure as hell get insulting with it.
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Machete Kills looks like it is going to be hilariously Neon Bloody Pink Mohawk and I love it for that.
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My preference is for "Pink Mohawk" in the cinematics over "Realism" and "rule of cool" over CSI:Shadowrun sense.
I think it's also fair to say that for me Pink Mohawk harkens back to the Cyperpunk roots of SR rather than the recent (and boring as paste in my opinion) tendency to try and turn Shadowrun into a Transhumanist Mission Impossible clone devoid of any story or sense of drama.
Of course the great thing about pen and paper RPGs is that I can play it how I want to and for me that means taking the setting that I love, using the themes from SR 1-3 and Gibson et al, seasoning them with the corners of the game my characters are interested in and get a heady stew. That combination of setting and thematic elements was strong enough to keep me involved through 4E and now that 5E has started to (in my opinion) return the game to it's dystopic roots I'm ecstatic.
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My preference is for "Pink Mohawk" in the cinematics over "Realism" and "rule of cool" over CSI:Shadowrun sense.
I think it's also fair to say that for me Pink Mohawk harkens back to the Cyperpunk roots of SR rather than the recent (and boring as paste in my opinion) tendency to try and turn Shadowrun into a Transhumanist Mission Impossible clone devoid of any story or sense of drama.
Of course the great thing about pen and paper RPGs is that I can play it how I want to and for me that means taking the setting that I love, using the themes from SR 1-3 and Gibson et al, seasoning them with the corners of the game my characters are interested in and get a heady stew. That combination of setting and thematic elements was strong enough to keep me involved through 4E and now that 5E has started to (in my opinion) return the game to it's dystopic roots I'm ecstatic.
I despise taking things the "Mission Impossible" route with a fiery burning passion, but on the Transhuman deal, it's time the setting further evolved toward that and way past time that the dystopic elements and all the 'grime' got wiped away.
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I despise taking things the "Mission Impossible" route with a fiery burning passion, but on the Transhuman deal, it's time the setting further evolved toward that and way past time that the dystopic elements and all the 'grime' got wiped away.
Obviously I disagree. That's not to say that there isn't a place in the marketplace for Transhumanist RPGs (Catalyst even makes one in Eclipse Phase) but SR isn't that place. There's a place for Transhumanism and a place for Cyberpunk, but grafting a transhumanist veneer onto a game with 20+ years of dystopic history seems weak.
Of course, once again, the briliance of RPGs is that you don't have to play my way and I don't have to play yours.
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I despise taking things the "Mission Impossible" route with a fiery burning passion, but on the Transhuman deal, it's time the setting further evolved toward that and way past time that the dystopic elements and all the 'grime' got wiped away.
Obviously I disagree. That's not to say that there isn't a place in the marketplace for Transhumanist RPGs (Catalyst even makes one in Eclipse Phase) but SR isn't that place. There's a place for Transhumanism and a place for Cyberpunk, but grafting a transhumanist veneer onto a game with 20+ years of dystopic history seems weak.
Of course, once again, the briliance of RPGs is that you don't have to play my way and I don't have to play yours.
I just consider it a natural evolution of the setting, and letting it continue to evolve would be better than listening to some diehards that want it to stay as is, which stands a good chance of causing it to stagnate.
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I just consider it a natural evolution of the setting, and letting it continue to evolve would be better than listening to some diehards that want it to stay as is, which stands a good chance of causing it to stagnate.
Thematic consistency doesn't mean stagnation. The plot can evolve and advance just as quickly and with as much novelty in either theme. Changing SR to a transhumanist wonderland just weakens the settings internal consistency and moves it toward the bland tapioca realm of games chasing the latest trend.
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I just consider it a natural evolution of the setting, and letting it continue to evolve would be better than listening to some diehards that want it to stay as is, which stands a good chance of causing it to stagnate.
Thematic consistency doesn't mean stagnation. The plot can evolve and advance just as quickly and with as much novelty in either theme. Changing SR to a transhumanist wonderland just weakens the settings internal consistency and moves it toward the bland tapioca realm of games chasing the latest trend.
Plot evolving isn't the same as the setting evolving. If the setting remains hard and fast set while only the plot advances, that's still stagnation for those that don't do much with the official plot line. The way things started out worked for the late 80's and through most of the 90's, but it's high time that things changed. The setting would be better for it.
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I just consider it a natural evolution of the setting, and letting it continue to evolve would be better than listening to some diehards that want it to stay as is, which stands a good chance of causing it to stagnate.
Thematic consistency doesn't mean stagnation. The plot can evolve and advance just as quickly and with as much novelty in either theme. Changing SR to a transhumanist wonderland just weakens the settings internal consistency and moves it toward the bland tapioca realm of games chasing the latest trend.
Plot evolving isn't the same as the setting evolving. If the setting remains hard and fast set while only the plot advances, that's still stagnation for those that don't do much with the official plot line. The way things started out worked for the late 80's and through most of the 90's, but it's high time that things changed. The setting would be better for it.
No it wouldn't. And again setting can evolve without throwing out the major themes of the game. Making SR a utopic transhumanist setting would make about as much sense as turning it into a giant robot fighting game. The background of the setting just doesn't support the shift.
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I just consider it a natural evolution of the setting, and letting it continue to evolve would be better than listening to some diehards that want it to stay as is, which stands a good chance of causing it to stagnate.
Thematic consistency doesn't mean stagnation. The plot can evolve and advance just as quickly and with as much novelty in either theme. Changing SR to a transhumanist wonderland just weakens the settings internal consistency and moves it toward the bland tapioca realm of games chasing the latest trend.
Plot evolving isn't the same as the setting evolving. If the setting remains hard and fast set while only the plot advances, that's still stagnation for those that don't do much with the official plot line. The way things started out worked for the late 80's and through most of the 90's, but it's high time that things changed. The setting would be better for it.
No it wouldn't. And again setting can evolve without throwing out the major themes of the game. Making SR a utopic transhumanist setting would make about as much sense as turning it into a giant robot fighting game. The background of the setting just doesn't support the shift.
Never did I say to take it to full utopia (Full utopia wouldn't work for anything but Star Trek.), but going to a middle ground wouldn't hurt things in the least.
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For the setting to actually evolve, it has to build off the existing base. Transhumanist technology wouldn't change the basic human motices that are at the core of creating Shadowrun's dystopia.
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It's probably like that middle ground for most of the contributing members of society. Thing is, you're playing a person who has looked at what has to be sacrificed for that comfort, and decided that the cost is just too much.
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For the setting to actually evolve, it has to build off the existing base. Transhumanist technology wouldn't change the basic human motices that are at the core of creating Shadowrun's dystopia.
Still doesn't stop both from occurring, but the diehards seem intent on trying to keep the status quo on both aspects with ridiculous claims that allowing the setting to evolve on either or both would somehow "completely destroy" the setting entirely.
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For the setting to actually evolve, it has to build off the existing base. Transhumanist technology wouldn't change the basic human motices that are at the core of creating Shadowrun's dystopia.
Still doesn't stop both from occurring, but the diehards seem intent on trying to keep the status quo on both aspects with ridiculous claims that allowing the setting to evolve on either or both would somehow "completely destroy" the setting entirely.
Ah, but at the same time if all the grime got wiped away, that wouldn't be evolution - it wouldn't be building off the existing base.
It's entirely possible to bring in the tranhumanist elements and still have the cyberpunk aspects, especially if you play up the inherently alien nature of a truly transhuman entity...
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Ah, but at the same time if all the grime got wiped away, that wouldn't be evolution - it wouldn't be building off the existing base.
This idea is a perfect example of the problem, as it's basically just an extension of the ridiculous claim that any change to the setting destroys the whole setting.
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Ah, but at the same time if all the grime got wiped away, that wouldn't be evolution - it wouldn't be building off the existing base.
This idea is a perfect example of the problem, as it's basically just an extension of the ridiculous claim that any change to the setting destroys the whole setting.
Not at all - scrapping the base to build something new isn't the same thing as the setting evolving. The "grime" is part of the DNA, part of the base that you're building from - it may be diminished as the setting evolves, but that is distinctly different from just flat out getting rid of it.
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Not at all - scrapping the base to build something new isn't the same thing as the setting evolving. The "grime" is part of the DNA, part of the base that you're building from - it may be diminished as the setting evolves, but that is distinctly different from just flat out getting rid of it.
It should continue diminishing until it is eventually gone, but it of course shouldn't all go at once. That would make about as much sense as the diehards' desire to prevent any change from occurring at all.
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Not at all - scrapping the base to build something new isn't the same thing as the setting evolving. The "grime" is part of the DNA, part of the base that you're building from - it may be diminished as the setting evolves, but that is distinctly different from just flat out getting rid of it.
It should continue diminishing until it is eventually gone, but it of course shouldn't all go at once. That would make about as much sense as the diehards' desire to prevent any change from occurring at all.
Except that the dystopic elements are what some people like about the setting (and that's not at all limited to just "diehards"), which means it can't just be done away with. It's part of the essential DNA of the setting and some of that needs to stay around if it's going to be recognizable as the same setting. Really, at that point it would be better to just publish a variant post-cyberpunk/transhumanist urban fantasy setting.
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Not at all - scrapping the base to build something new isn't the same thing as the setting evolving. The "grime" is part of the DNA, part of the base that you're building from - it may be diminished as the setting evolves, but that is distinctly different from just flat out getting rid of it.
It should continue diminishing until it is eventually gone, but it of course shouldn't all go at once. That would make about as much sense as the diehards' desire to prevent any change from occurring at all.
Except that the dystopic elements are what some people like about the setting (and that's not at all limited to just "diehards"), which means it can't just be done away with. It's part of the essential DNA of the setting and some of that needs to stay around if it's going to be recognizable as the same setting. Really, at that point it would be better to just publish a variant post-cyberpunk/transhumanist urban fantasy setting.
But it's only those "diehards" that would really care one way or the other if it did eventually fade away entirely. I find it far more likely that the majority would just shrug and continue on.
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Well... with dystopia intact thay just sold out their first print run and set a record at Drive-Thru. Do you have any evidence other than "I want it" that indicates your shiny happy shadowrun would do better?
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My preference is for "Pink Mohawk" in the cinematics over "Realism" and "rule of cool" over CSI:Shadowrun sense.
I think it's also fair to say that for me Pink Mohawk harkens back to the Cyperpunk roots of SR rather than the recent (and boring as paste in my opinion) tendency to try and turn Shadowrun into a Transhumanist Mission Impossible clone devoid of any story or sense of drama.
Of course the great thing about pen and paper RPGs is that I can play it how I want to and for me that means taking the setting that I love, using the themes from SR 1-3 and Gibson et al, seasoning them with the corners of the game my characters are interested in and get a heady stew. That combination of setting and thematic elements was strong enough to keep me involved through 4E and now that 5E has started to (in my opinion) return the game to it's dystopic roots I'm ecstatic.
Well Transhumanism is really a completely separate thing from the PM/BT spectrum, I'd think. And it appears you set off another argument by mentioning it, heheh. Briefly though, I think the game benefits by having some transhuman elements. It's great when say you have some street level punk orks break into a Horizon corp site and see all sorts of weird drek. It really interested me what I read in another thread about the massive use of skillsofts at Horizon and how their employees are like pieces of hardware.
I think there's different ways to inroduce reality/BT elements in a game than CSI style. I hate CSI and try not to do that. I'm more shooting for drama than a bunch of obsessing about blood spots. Like having homicide detectives question characters to me is a fun and dramatic scene. I use shows like the Wire, Homicide, The Shield, and Burn Notice as sort of models for these interactions with Johnny Law. My goal isn't to force the players to obsess about what permits they are carrying or if they bleached that crime scene.It's to add tension and also create some unique interactions with NPCs. And maybe have some bribery of corrupt officials here and there as well.
Incompetent or nonexistent cops does have it's advantages, such as allowing the players to get away with more over the top stunts. But it also means there is no reason to do things like bribe cops or strategize about them. It's a trade off.
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Burn Notice though is a notably Pink Mohawk show (at least if you look at anyone in the show other than Michael).
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Not at all - scrapping the base to build something new isn't the same thing as the setting evolving. The "grime" is part of the DNA, part of the base that you're building from - it may be diminished as the setting evolves, but that is distinctly different from just flat out getting rid of it.
It should continue diminishing until it is eventually gone, but it of course shouldn't all go at once. That would make about as much sense as the diehards' desire to prevent any change from occurring at all.
Except that the dystopic elements are what some people like about the setting (and that's not at all limited to just "diehards"), which means it can't just be done away with. It's part of the essential DNA of the setting and some of that needs to stay around if it's going to be recognizable as the same setting. Really, at that point it would be better to just publish a variant post-cyberpunk/transhumanist urban fantasy setting.
But it's only those "diehards" that would really care one way or the other if it did eventually fade away entirely. I find it far more likely that the majority would just shrug and continue on.
...
Except that the dystopic elements are what some people like about the setting (and that's not at all limited to just "diehards")
People don't just shrug and keep on keeping on when one of the main things they like about the setting goes away.
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Not at all - scrapping the base to build something new isn't the same thing as the setting evolving. The "grime" is part of the DNA, part of the base that you're building from - it may be diminished as the setting evolves, but that is distinctly different from just flat out getting rid of it.
It should continue diminishing until it is eventually gone, but it of course shouldn't all go at once. That would make about as much sense as the diehards' desire to prevent any change from occurring at all.
Except that the dystopic elements are what some people like about the setting (and that's not at all limited to just "diehards"), which means it can't just be done away with. It's part of the essential DNA of the setting and some of that needs to stay around if it's going to be recognizable as the same setting. Really, at that point it would be better to just publish a variant post-cyberpunk/transhumanist urban fantasy setting.
But it's only those "diehards" that would really care one way or the other if it did eventually fade away entirely. I find it far more likely that the majority would just shrug and continue on.
...
Except that the dystopic elements are what some people like about the setting (and that's not at all limited to just "diehards")
People don't just shrug and keep on keeping on when one of the main things they like about the setting goes away.
yep, just look at what happened to D&D/pathfinder.....
WoTC/hasbro changed the system radically from 3.5 to 4.... and the rage wars continye to this day....
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Well... with dystopia intact thay just sold out their first print run and set a record at Drive-Thru. Do you have any evidence other than "I want it" that indicates your shiny happy shadowrun would do better?
There were aspects of the system drastically improved in the edition transition (notably the return to SR3 style Initiative) that probably had more to do with the reception than anything else.
People don't just shrug and keep on keeping on when one of the main things they like about the setting goes away.
I'm not convinced that the "dystopia lovers" form the majority. I still have a feeling that the majority could give a shit less one way or the other on that.
yep, just look at what happened to D&D/pathfinder.....
WoTC/hasbro changed the system radically from 3.5 to 4.... and the rage wars continue to this day....
Where WotC fubared was that they completely ruined the system for the game.
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Majority has no relevance in this context.
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Majority has no relevance in this context.
Since that seems to be the only real argument in favor of the "never changing setting", it is quite relevant.
And even if it did turn out to be the case on the forums, that doesn't mean that it is for the majority of all SR players.
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Unless someone has access to a mailing list of a few thousands Shadowrun players, it seems unlikely this question will be answered on these forums. One could presume that CGL has done some market research on the matter and 5E is a reflection of the desires of a representative sample of the player base.
Or not.
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Ah, but at the same time if all the grime got wiped away, that wouldn't be evolution - it wouldn't be building off the existing base.
Dominion: Tank Police was a great example of the Shadowrun setting. It was dark, brooding, and dystopian. Come on: The
police had TANKS.
New Dominion, the sequel series, wiped all the grime and dirt away, and even took away the Hand Grenade interrogations
by the Tank Police, took away the filter masks, and all that...and it was not really the same setting. They could have changed
all the names, and you still would not have thought it had any connection to the original series.
So..I think that helps illustrate the point.
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Dominion: Tank Police was a great example of the Shadowrun setting. It was dark, brooding, and dystopian. Come on: The
police had TANKS.
Great point. The next time my players go Pink Mohawk, that's how I'll deliver some gritty realism. You thought the cops had just SMGs and seven dice in their attack pools? Not tonight kids, meet the new Knight Errant Tank Patrol Division.
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Dominion: Tank Police was a great example of the Shadowrun setting. It was dark, brooding, and dystopian. Come on: The
police had TANKS.
Great point. The next time my players go Pink Mohawk, that's how I'll deliver some gritty realism. You thought the cops had just SMGs and seven dice in their attack pools? Not tonight kids, meet the new Knight Errant Tank Patrol Division.
*shifty eyes* You know...given some of the ordinace I have seen players have? While I would not imagine them in MBTs like the Stonewall,
I can definately see Knight Errant and Lone Star having things like Strikers and Devil Rats for some situations..
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Ah, but at the same time if all the grime got wiped away, that wouldn't be evolution - it wouldn't be building off the existing base.
Dominion: Tank Police was a great example of the Shadowrun setting. It was dark, brooding, and dystopian. Come on: The
police had TANKS.
New Dominion, the sequel series, wiped all the grime and dirt away, and even took away the Hand Grenade interrogations
by the Tank Police, took away the filter masks, and all that...and it was not really the same setting. They could have changed
all the names, and you still would not have thought it had any connection to the original series.
So..I think that helps illustrate the point.
IMO, it just illustrates something I already knew, and that is that sequels rarely get a fair shake from some fans that a show/movie/whatever has.
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Majority has no relevance in this context.
Since that seems to be the only real argument in favor of the "never changing setting", it is quite relevant.
And even if it did turn out to be the case on the forums, that doesn't mean that it is for the majority of all SR players.
I rather suspect the best form of the argument is something more along the lines of "a significant portion of the playbase". It doesn't have to be a majority for losing them to be a Problem.
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Going to weigh in here and try to lend some outside perspective, since all of you guys make valid points, but it's hard to see the forest for the trees sometimes.
I've been familiar with the Shadowrun settings for a good while, but have only really had the opportunity to play regularly recently. However, I first played in 2nd Edition, so that's where that is. From what I've seen, certain things change while others must necessarily stay if not the same then at least similar enough to be recognizable.
The technology from 2E to 4E(which I am currently playing) has changed a bit, gotten more advanced, as it rightly should, since it reflects the change from clunky wired 80s tech to more neo-modern wireless stuff. Likewise, the plots, metaplots, schemes, conspiracies, and a ton of the people involved have shifted, changed, evolved, etc to reflect that life is not static. It moves. Constantly.
Now, the rules can change, the corporations and plots can shift, even the atmosphere can be altered a fair bit, but certain themes that make the setting what it is have to remain semi-constant. If they don't, the system ceases to be Shadowrun. Perhaps there is room for sub-settings, aka different locations, sprawls and whatnot that may have a very different feel to the main core game, sort of like how there's core D&D, and then there's the various campaign settings(Eberron, Forgotten Realms, etc). Just look at the difference between a game set in Seattle with a lot of cloak and dagger stuff, and one set in Bogota, where heavy armour and excessive ammo may actually be a good thing.
Through all that though, what remains constant is that corporations and nations are self-serving and monolithic entities, people everywhere get manipulated by other people, conspiracies are in fact common(just not commonly known perhaps), and society in general lives in a fairly gritty dystopian world, where there IS light and shining beacons of hope(depending who you ask), but the larger the beacon, the larger the shadow it casts. Shadowrun IS a dark, dystopian setting. Yes, it shares certain factors with other ones(you could run a Shadowrun-Mad-Max crossover fairly easily for instance), but it is it's own animal, and to change the nature of the beast is to fundamentally change the beast.
So, after that mechanical rant, here's the final point I think most people have missed so far, one that is purely in-game. Life has changed a lot in 20 years. It's changed more in 50 years. However, certain things haven't. Even in the 50s, 60s, 70s, etc, companies and corporations tried to get more power. It happened with Reagan, it happened with Clinton, and it's happening under Obama(using generic American examples as a constant, I'm Canadian). Likewise, technology progresses on, comforts and interests and music trends change, but people generally stay the same.
The first settings was in the 2050s, and it was established to be a dark, gritty, dystopian, "high-tech, low-life" setting. FASA designed it that way. Through subsequent editions, smaller things changed, but the world atmosphere largely remained the same, as no matter the circumstances, where there is money to be had doing illegal things for powerful players, there are people willing to do those things discreetly. In game-time, the difference between the first and 5th editions is about 20 years, give or take a few. So the difference in world view, atmosphere, etc would be about the difference between the 90s and now. Not actually that big of a difference, overall.
Also, final final point. While there is a dichotomy between Transhumanism and Dystopian cyberpunk influences, the two can coexist, in small doses. Someone earlier mentioned the Horizon/EVO example, which is perfect. The megacorps march towards what they see as a utopian world for their citizens, and the people who belong to the corps/want to belong see it as perfect beauty and harmony. However, a LOT of people don't want anything to do with that, and as such it's a relatively small and isolated cultures. Megacorps aren;t really isolated, but consider that only a couple of the Big 10 right now are really experimenting with these concepts, and at most they probably have a few hundred thousand employees. Not all that much compared to a world population of probably about 8 billion.
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I came to Shadowrun for the technoir, cyberpunk, sometimes-dystopic sometimes-crystal-spires (barrens vs arcologies, anyone?), the shady deals and the promises of a better life for those who just had the skill to keep their fingertip grip on both their lives and reality.
In short, it was a game that I loved.
Seeing that all be wiped away to get a tabletop Deus Ex: Human Revolution (which I loved, but it was a bit too clean for Shadowrun) wouldn't sit right with me, and whilst there are transhuman elements, that's all they should be to maintain the integrity of the setting: elements.
At its heart, you are playing a group of organised (usually) criminals who rob very powerful people for a living, and have to do so sucessfully every time. This really doesn't transfer well into a transhumanist setting, wheras it's basically the definition of cyberpunk, so to me, Shadowrun is fine as it is.
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Transhumanism, as defined by Wikipedia is "The intellectual and cultural movement that affirms the possibility and desirability of fundamentally improving the human condition through applied reason, especially by developing and making widely available technologies to eliminate aging and to greatly enhance human intellectual, physical, and psychological capacities."
I'm not sure how cybernetics and magic Don't already do that.
The link is here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transhumanism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transhumanism)
Judging from the context of the argument it seems more along the view of Cyberpunk grit and Noir stylings vs the more polished technologies of Post-Human style sci fi as developed by writers like Charles Stross (Accelerando) and Hannu Rajaniemi (Quantum Thief) which deals with more advanced types of science in their fiction that in turn influences the humanity of the protagonists in question.
Posthuman Definition According to transhumanist thinkers, a posthuman is a hypothetical future being "whose basic capacities so radically exceed those of present humans as to be no longer unambiguously human by our current standards."
Wikipedia Entry http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posthuman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posthuman)
At the end of the day, I go by the rule that Gary Gygax left on the first page of D&D first edition.
"If you don't like a rule, don't use it, it's your game."
As far as whether or not Shadowrun is moving towards a more Cyberpunk or more Posthumanist (Or Transhuman if you prefer to think of it that way) style of science fiction is like asking if you got peanut butter in your chocolate or chocolate in your peanut butter.
The source material isn't stating it either way, but that's probably more because the writers just aren't using those terms for it. You can change your personality with a Personafix chip, and your body with surgery or magic to the point where you could literally become a different person, or, conversely, you could make other people change until they were as much like you, as you were.
Within the context of the rules, which means if you wanted to, you could have a go-gang that's composed of one person who just keeps kidnapping and converting other people to be like him. (I'm totally going to use this as a Game Hook now).
Now, that's a central tenet of Posthumanism, that bodies and personalities are mutable, even disposable after a fashion, and that's already in SR. Cyberwear and Personafix.
The fact that in the Shadowrun Wiki it addresses those deckers who were jacked in at the time of Crash 2.0 as being E-Ghosts.
http://shadowrun.wikia.com/wiki/Artificial_Intelligence (http://shadowrun.wikia.com/wiki/Artificial_Intelligence)
However, I've yet to see any of those E-Ghosts getting back to a meat existence, nor have I seen any other kind of Engram Technology (ala Neuromancer) in Shadowrun. There's certainly elements of it there, but they are countered by the Ork Underground, Go-Gangs and Used Cyberwear, in order to keep the game somewhat true to its William Gibson/Tolkien roots.
I honestly don't think you're going to ever see a Shadowrun supplement come along that will say one way or the other because it would be needlessly divisive. Why not just give players and DM's the ability to play that kind of game if they want to, and leave it unspoken?
However, the argument seems to be one of Glamour Vs Grit, and as far as that goes it's a personal choice on the groups playing.
Me, personally, I choose Grit every time, that's my preference.
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Transhumanism, as defined by Wikipedia is "The intellectual and cultural movement that affirms the possibility and desirability of fundamentally improving the human condition through applied reason, especially by developing and making widely available technologies to eliminate aging and to greatly enhance human intellectual, physical, and psychological capacities."
I'm not sure how cybernetics and magic Don't already do that.
The link is here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transhumanism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transhumanism)
Judging from the context of the argument it seems more along the view of Cyberpunk grit and Noir stylings vs the more polished technologies of Post-Human style sci fi as developed by writers like Charles Stross (Accelerando) and Hannu Rajaniemi (Quantum Thief) which deals with more advanced types of science in their fiction that in turn influences the humanity of the protagonists in question.
Posthuman Definition According to transhumanist thinkers, a posthuman is a hypothetical future being "whose basic capacities so radically exceed those of present humans as to be no longer unambiguously human by our current standards."
Wikipedia Entry http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posthuman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posthuman)
At the end of the day, I go by the rule that Gary Gygax left on the first page of D&D first edition.
"If you don't like a rule, don't use it, it's your game."
As far as whether or not Shadowrun is moving towards a more Cyberpunk or more Posthumanist (Or Transhuman if you prefer to think of it that way) style of science fiction is like asking if you got peanut butter in your chocolate or chocolate in your peanut butter.
The source material isn't stating it either way, but that's probably more because the writers just aren't using those terms for it. You can change your personality with a Personafix chip, and your body with surgery or magic to the point where you could literally become a different person, or, conversely, you could make other people change until they were as much like you, as you were.
Within the context of the rules, which means if you wanted to, you could have a go-gang that's composed of one person who just keeps kidnapping and converting other people to be like him. (I'm totally going to use this as a Game Hook now).
Now, that's a central tenet of Posthumanism, that bodies and personalities are mutable, even disposable after a fashion, and that's already in SR. Cyberwear and Personafix.
The fact that in the Shadowrun Wiki it addresses those deckers who were jacked in at the time of Crash 2.0 as being E-Ghosts.
http://shadowrun.wikia.com/wiki/Artificial_Intelligence (http://shadowrun.wikia.com/wiki/Artificial_Intelligence)
However, I've yet to see any of those E-Ghosts getting back to a meat existence, nor have I seen any other kind of Engram Technology (ala Neuromancer) in Shadowrun. There's certainly elements of it there, but they are countered by the Ork Underground, Go-Gangs and Used Cyberwear, in order to keep the game somewhat true to its William Gibson/Tolkien roots.
I honestly don't think you're going to ever see a Shadowrun supplement come along that will say one way or the other because it would be needlessly divisive. Why not just give players and DM's the ability to play that kind of game if they want to, and leave it unspoken?
However, the argument seems to be one of Glamour Vs Grit, and as far as that goes it's a personal choice on the groups playing.
Me, personally, I choose Grit every time, that's my preference.
Wow, that was very well thought out and put together. Grats!
I see what you are saying. Personally, when I think "Transhumanism" I am seeing more sleek and polish... bright lights, white walls, sterile...clean.
Shadowrun has those elements for sure, but it feels very rough, new....
And the Grit or Glamour aspect is pretty much waaay on the grit side of things... Shadowrun at it's core fails without that grit. It's the "I have to sell my body, while my mind is asleep so I can buy food for tomorrow" attitude that makes the premise of Shadowrun workable. At least to me.
I just don't really see professional criminals running around in a society that has reached the typical view of "transhumanist" status-qo...
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Wow, that was very well thought out and put together. Grats!
I see what you are saying. Personally, when I think "Transhumanism" I am seeing more sleek and polish... bright lights, white walls, sterile...clean.
Shadowrun has those elements for sure, but it feels very rough, new....
And the Grit or Glamour aspect is pretty much waaay on the grit side of things... Shadowrun at it's core fails without that grit. It's the "I have to sell my body, while my mind is asleep so I can buy food for tomorrow" attitude that makes the premise of Shadowrun workable. At least to me.
I just don't really see professional criminals running around in a society that has reached the typical view of "transhumanist" status-qo...
Thank you for the compliment, I do my best to think out what I post.
As far as seeing a kind of grit to Transhumanist works, I suggest the Takeshi Kovacs series of novels, amazing work, and it really reinforces the criminal aspect of the person rather than the crime.
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As far as seeing a kind of grit to Transhumanist works, I suggest the Takeshi Kovacs series of novels, amazing work, and it really reinforces the criminal aspect of the person rather than the crime.
thanks, always looking for new reading material.
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"The intellectual and cultural movement that affirms the possibility and desirability of fundamentally improving the human condition through applied reason, especially by developing and making widely available technologies to eliminate aging and to greatly enhance human intellectual, physical, and psychological capacities."
The difference between a transhumanist setting and a Cyberpunk setting is in the bolded section. Transhumanists believe that the tech will make is better. Cyberpunks believe that it only makes us more capable of acting on our worst impulses. A transhumanist believes that the tech will make you wiser, more good and more human. The existence of essence loss in Shadowrun makes it inherently a non-transhumanist setting, as in SR tech makes you less human. That idea is anathema to transhumanist belief.
Try reading Westerfields Risen Empire series. It's got a highly developed transhumanist culture at odds with a human empire.
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Crunch, the very existence of the idea of the posthuman fully invalidates your central premise; this is the idea of a person being made something other than human via tech - loss of humanity is very much an element of that.
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In transhumanist settings the "posthuman" is a positive ideal. Humanity is being cast away and replaced by something better. Doesn't sound like a cyber zombie to me. Transhumanist settings and cyberpunk settings share a lot of window dressing, but the underlying philosophy is different.
The transhumanist posthuman is an ascendant being made better through tech.
The cyberpunk transhuman has thrown away his humanity for a lonely crib and diminishing returns.
In other words the issue isn't "other than human", that's a common trait to both genres, it's whether that "other" is an improvement over the original model.
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Cyber zombies, in case you've forgotten, require a very difficult and rather powerful ritual for their creation. The "jar head" Cyborgs would be rather close, however.
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Cyber zombies, in case you've forgotten, require a very difficult and rather powerful ritual for their creation. The "jar head" Cyborgs would be rather close, however.
Have you been drinking?
Or get hit in the head recently???
Have I been drinking?!?!?
<looks around, sees glass, sees rye bottle, sees mix>
Apparently I have!
That could be why we seem to be agreeing a lot today :P
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Cyber zombies, in case you've forgotten, require a very difficult and rather powerful ritual for their creation. The "jar head" Cyborgs would be rather close, however.
I haven't forgotten. I'm just pointing out that the SR version of "posthuman" isn't exactly the transhumanist model.
Understand that I read and enjoy both Cyberpunk and Transhumanist literature, it's just that SR is very definitely not Transhumanist. SR4 was a dystopian cyberpunk world with transhumanist tendencies which was bizarre and didn't serve either genre well.
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In transhumanist settings the "posthuman" is a positive ideal. Humanity is being cast away and replaced by something better. Doesn't sound like a cyber zombie to me. Transhumanist settings and cyberpunk settings share a lot of window dressing, but the underlying philosophy is different.
The transhumanist posthuman is an ascendant being made better through tech.
The cyberpunk transhuman has thrown away his humanity for a lonely crib and diminishing returns.
In other words the issue isn't "other than human", that's a common trait to both genres, it's whether that "other" is an improvement over the original model.
And thus my question to you becomes: Why can't both happen? Or, for that matter, why can't it be more nuanced than just being or the other?
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In transhumanist settings the "posthuman" is a positive ideal. Humanity is being cast away and replaced by something better. Doesn't sound like a cyber zombie to me. Transhumanist settings and cyberpunk settings share a lot of window dressing, but the underlying philosophy is different.
The transhumanist posthuman is an ascendant being made better through tech.
The cyberpunk transhuman has thrown away his humanity for a lonely crib and diminishing returns.
In other words the issue isn't "other than human", that's a common trait to both genres, it's whether that "other" is an improvement over the original model.
I haven't forgotten. I'm just pointing out that the SR version of "posthuman" isn't exactly the transhumanist model.
In the immortal words of a great man from the 80's,
"I don't think that word means what you think it means."
1. Cyberpunk isn't a philosophy, it's a genre of science fiction.
2. Transhumanism is the improvement of a basic humans' capabilities through technology, technically, almost all cyberpunk literature and games fall into this category.
The edit-Cyberpunk genre is defined in a distopian, noir setting that puts basic human flaws in the spotlight. Things like the seven deadly sins, greed, lust, gluttony, envy, wrath and sloth, and how those qualities are essentially unchanged by the technology around them. Usually the antagonist embodies these negative qualities, while the protagonist only has one or two of them.
3. Post-humanism is becoming something other than human through technology.
If you've read Charles Stross, his 'Vile Offspring' of humanity (Accelerando) are Post-Humans, technically the Cyber-Psychos of the Cyberpunk 2020 game are Post Humans as well. These types of individuals and beings are exceptionally hard to write due to us, as humans, not being able to successfully write something from the perspective of a human/AI mental amalgamation of code processes running on a diamond core server in the non-elliptical plane of the solar system on self-replicating computers. We can imagine that it exists though. Just like irrational numbers and those people who believe crop circles are really done by Led Zeppelin's guitarist whilst he plays 'Stairway to Heaven' on a kazoo.
When you say the Transhuman posthuman you're kind of confusing two separate things.
The definition of a posthuman is this
"According to transhumanist thinkers, a posthuman is a hypothetical future being "whose basic capacities so radically exceed those of present humans as to be no longer unambiguously human by our current standards."linkhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posthuman#Posthuman_in_posthumanism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posthuman#Posthuman_in_posthumanism)
Which taken literally, would apply to some of Shadowruns Metahumanity, because genetically they aren't 'human' strictly speaking. However, they are characterized as human in the literature and game books so in the end they don't qualify as Post Human.
The definition of a Transhuman is this
"Transhuman or trans-human is an intermediary form between the human and the hypothetical posthuman"linkhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transhuman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transhuman)
The difference of those two concepts, to me, is the same as the difference between a lightning bug, and lightning.
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I'm well aware of what the words mean, and I've read much of the canon of transhumanist and cyber punk literature. They're not particularly compatible at the heart of them despite similar trappings.
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It still remains that the setting needs to progress and advance both technologically and socially, eventually moving it away from its roots in dystopia. The speed of setting progression does not need to be very fast, indeed it could seem to be a snail's pace, but it does need to occur rather than the setting remaining static because some corners of the fan base don't like the idea of it changing.
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It still remains that the setting needs to progress and advance both technologically and socially, eventually moving it away from its roots in dystopia. The speed of setting progression does not need to be very fast, indeed it could seem to be a snail's pace, but it does need to occur rather than the setting remaining static because some corners of the fan base don't like the idea of it changing.
Your right...it should be getting WORSE. The Corps should be growing more powerful. Because, you see, that is how
corporations work RL..they use the power they get to get more power to make more money.
I wonder if in Shadowrun all copyright laws are controlled by Disney's equivalent to keep Mickey Mouse from
the Public Domain?
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Your right...it should be getting WORSE. The Corps should be growing more powerful. Because, you see, that is how
corporations work RL..they use the power they get to get more power to make more money.
No, it should not be getting worse. That may be how things work in Real Life, but that doesn't make for a good game. The opposite direction on the other hand would turn a great game into an excellent game.
That would require the Corps to, you know, not hold all the cards in the big game, and have not stacked the deck in their favour.
When they, not the military, control orbital weaponry, and, if they decided to, could destroy any city they want...things favour and
will always favor the Corps.
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That would require the Corps to, you know, not hold all the cards in the big game, and have not stacked the deck in their favour.
When they, not the military, control orbital weaponry, and, if they decided to, could destroy any city they want...things favour and
will always favor the Corps.
And that's why maintaining the status quo is their chief goal. Also, it's not as simple as the Megacorps just stepping on anyone they wish. If that was true, Amazonia would not exist and Aztechnology would rule unopposed all the way down through South America. Magic is one area they haven't been able to fully control. There's always the potential for new invaders such as the bug spirits and there's certain areas of the earth the corps can't seem to grab. And they also have to worry about competition from themselves, or the next company seeking to displace them from the CC.