[Critias]

But my point is that there's no "resurrection" taking place.  That wasn't a tradition, and then wasn't the tradition for a while, and then now all of a sudden it is, again.  That's just always been part of the format.  Core book lists core material, and then more specific books come out with more specific gear in them.

It's not something to be resurrected, because it's never been dead.  From the very first books released under SR4, that was how it was done.  Arsenal, Augmentation, Unwired, Street Magic...the tradition can't "stay dead" because the tradition never was "dead."

[Sengir]

Street Samurai Catalog, Shadowtech, Grimoire, Fields of Fire, Rigger Black Book, Rigger 2, Rigger 3, Cannon Companion, Man and Machine, Magic in the Shadows, SOTA '63, SOTA '64...there have always been a ton of books that have hardware (and dis/advantages, and spells, and other new gear) spread out between them.  There are plenty of old SR1 and SR2 books that had crunch in 'em, and it almost always would've been nicer to have it all in one book, sure.

Which is why I asked "And while we are at it, why not resurrect some other traditions as well?" (and in case you also missed that, that was sarcasm).

SR4 introduced the laudable concept of Corebooks - one book for avanced magic, one book for more equipment, one book for new cyber, and so on. If the bread and butter stuff is not enough for you, get the respective Sourcebook. There's one for critters, one for boondock areas...
Even a warfare book would have fit nicely into that scheme, one book for everything that is more than simply shadowruning. Instead, all the stuff gets spread over several books.

[Lansdren]

Forgive me for being difficult but I was under the impression the plan was to seperate books out by subject and limit gear and heavy crunch from the more fluff based source books? The reasoning I was to understand was so that players might not have to get every book just the core rules where as the GM of the group was free to pick up the fluff and story books to flesh out their games with.

[Chaemera]

Forgive me for being difficult but I was under the impression the plan was to seperate books out by subject and limit gear and heavy crunch from the more fluff based source books? The reasoning I was to understand was so that players might not have to get every book just the core rules where as the GM of the group was free to pick up the fluff and story books to flesh out their games with.

Yeah, just because that's a good (arguably great) idea doesn't mean that people aren't going to belly-ache that it's an attempt to sell more books. Heaven forbid a business try and sell their product, of course. 

There is more than enough crunch already that most people don't need more, unless that's all they play the game for. Bring on more fluff books! Because, honestly, with everyone talking about how great the world of shadowrun is, I look at my bookshelf and I see a core rulebook (about 50/50 fluff/crunch split), five hardbound rules supplements (20/80 fluff/crunch), one softcover monster book (30/70 fluff/crunch), one hardbound setting book (100/0 fluff/crunch), three softcover setting books (80/20 fluff/crunch). War comes in as another setting softcover (70/30 fluff/crunch).
By my measure, that's a pretty damn crunchy breakdown, and people are complaining that there wasn't enough crunch in War? To much setting? What is this, DnD?

Unless the crunch specifically fixes something generally seen as bad (I've heard lots of complaints on the disease rules, for example), cut the crunch down and stick it in digital supplements, don't waste good paper on crunch until you've got a heck of a lot more flesh on the 4th edition 6W bones. People who want their power creep can opt not to buy books that expand the world's stage and instead buy the gear PDFs.

Spy Games, please be very fluffy. There's plenty of espionage gear out there already, be fluffy...

[Critias]

Street Samurai Catalog, Shadowtech, Grimoire, Fields of Fire, Rigger Black Book, Rigger 2, Rigger 3, Cannon Companion, Man and Machine, Magic in the Shadows, SOTA '63, SOTA '64...there have always been a ton of books that have hardware (and dis/advantages, and spells, and other new gear) spread out between them.  There are plenty of old SR1 and SR2 books that had crunch in 'em, and it almost always would've been nicer to have it all in one book, sure.

Which is why I asked "And while we are at it, why not resurrect some other traditions as well?" (and in case you also missed that, that was sarcasm).

SR4 introduced the laudable concept of Corebooks - one book for avanced magic, one book for more equipment, one book for new cyber, and so on. If the bread and butter stuff is not enough for you, get the respective Sourcebook. There's one for critters, one for boondock areas...
Even a warfare book would have fit nicely into that scheme, one book for everything that is more than simply shadowruning. Instead, all the stuff gets spread over several books.

I'm not sure if you didn't read my later post, or just ignored it.

Just what "several" books are you talking about?  War! has top tier military gear in it.  Spy Games will have espionage-specific gear in it (and I can tell you, first hand, that the notes for it specifically stated not to put genuine military stuff in, as it would be covered by War!).  One for military stuff, one for spy stuff (and both clearly labeled as such by the title of the book).

What's the problem?  How does this break the core SR4 pattern (which has actually been the core SR pattern, an unbroken trend for about the last twenty years, as I pointed out in my post)?

Spy Games, please be very fluffy. There's plenty of espionage gear out there already, be fluffy...

I can tell you right up front, there's an entire Tradecraft chapter, and at least half of the Places of Interest chapter, that you should be very, very, pleased with.

[TranqFrollman]

There is more than enough crunch already that most people don't need more, unless that's all they play the game for. Bring on more fluff books! Because, honestly, with everyone talking about how great the world of shadowrun is, I look at my bookshelf and I see a core rulebook (about 50/50 fluff/crunch split), five hardbound rules supplements (20/80 fluff/crunch), one softcover monster book (30/70 fluff/crunch), one hardbound setting book (100/0 fluff/crunch), three softcover setting books (80/20 fluff/crunch). War comes in as another setting softcover (70/30 fluff/crunch).
By my measure, that's a pretty damn crunchy breakdown, and people are complaining that there wasn't enough crunch in War? To much setting? What is this, DnD?

A book named "War!", and not, say "Target: Bogotá"*, could have more material on how wars are fought in the 6th World (methods, troops, etc.), and less on a single place. Also, it could mention Gurkhas in Nepal ...
*: I in no way imply a "Target: Bogotá" book couldn't have been good.

Spy Games, please be very fluffy. There's plenty of espionage gear out there already, be fluffy...

I'd rewrite that to "talk about how 6th-Worlders do espionage".

[Sengir]

It was. The new plan are weird mixtures of setting, campaign and crunch in one.

When I first heard about it (from AH complaining on Dumpshock), I even liked the idea of having all the stuff to run a military campaign in one self-contained release, instead of just another Arsenal. Just the result...well


@Critias: And what do small teams of specialists (like shadowrunners are) do in top tier militaries? Intel, sabotage, radio games and all that certainly are part of it.

[hobgoblin]

iirc, crunch have always outsold fluff. This being true for all games across hobby history.

[FastJack]

Actually, War! takes the same track as Corporate Enclaves, Feral Cities and similar books took. Focused on the one or two major subjects (in the other books, they were two cities, in War! it was Bogata and Mercenaries), a couple fluff pieces on minor subjects, then toss in some crunch to go along with it.

[John Schmidt]

I like blue. I like blue. I like blue. I like blue. I like blue. I like blue. I like blue. I like blue. I like blue. I like blue. I like blue. I like blue. I like blue. I like blue. I like blue. I like blue. I like blue. I like blue. I like blue. I like blue. I like blue. I like blue. I like blue. I like blue. I like blue. I like blue. I like blue. I like blue. I like blue. I like blue. I like blue. I like blue. I like blue. I like blue. I like blue. I like blue. I like blue. I like blue. I like blue. I like blue. I like blue. I like blue.

At some point people get tired of the same statement being repeated over and over...by the same group of inidividuals. I am all for polite discourse and even opinions that I strongly disagree with...at some point though if new information cannot be added to discussion all you have is "I like blue. I like blue. I like blue."

For those who think things were better in the old days, I have 1st and 2nd edition SR books with BLANK pages (i.e. I am missing entire pages)! Rest assured, freelancers and CGL staff have heard your point. 

BTW...I really do like blue!

[Bull]

BTW...I really do like blue!

I disagree!  Red is the superior color.  ANd since I disagree, and my opinion is the only one that can possibly be correct, then your opinion is wrong.  Thus, you are invalidated.

Back on topic, yes, this is an issue, and yes, this is something being discussed.  And hopefully steps will be taken to prevent some of this from happening in the future.  But as John points out, no book has ever been perfect.  But for the record, I do agree taht War! was a bit further than is tolerable, IMO.

Bull

[Otakusensei]

Very mature, guys.

Perhaps the issue isn't that the blue loving folks just can't stop talking about their love of the color.  Perhaps they have an issue with the quality of the Shadowrun line and it really is degrading at a rapid rate and shows no sign of getting any better regardless of the sometimes weak, superficial or misguided excuses being made.

I just got done reading the document linked below to my wife, and she said sadly "Do they even like Shadowrun?"

Ya know what?  I had to ask myself the same question.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/45944623/Shadowrun-Artifacts-Unbound-Project-Spec

So if we sound like a broken record, if some of us sound like we just can't let go of an issue, just can't see it the other way; it might be because we love this game, we aren't seeing that dedication reflected in the product and we are showing it here in a public forum.  And perhaps, we aren't all a bunch of malcontents or (as I was called in the Champaign Room) a hater who just want to see CGL burn.

And I like blue as well.  It's my favorite color as a matter of fact.

[Critias]

Hey, great.  Now we're doing bad work not just before a print copy is out, not just before a pdf is out, not just before a product gets to layout and proofing, not just before the rough draft, but before we even turn in proposals.  As soon as a book spec gets leaked, all the writers are Shadowrun haters.  Awesome.  At least we've got a lot less typing to do, now.   

[Chaemera]

I gotta say, I agree with Critias on this one...

Granted, I don't like the whole dragonball feeling of the artifacts in this leaked document any more than the next person who remembers how bad Z & onwards were, but it's a spec, potentially incomplete, potentially completely pulled out of someone's ass. It's not the final product. And, assuming the spec is legit, hopefully, right now, given the reception its gotten, someone is lining out that bit about them being ripped out of a mediocre 80's anime.

Aside from that, the spec wasn't even terribly offensive. Yes, it'd be nice to say the reading pre-reqs are "every Shadowrun book ever written", but meh. wait until you have something to actually judge before repeating your broken record.

And yes, though poorly said, that's exactly what John Schmidt was getting at, it does no one any good to sit here saying "I think War is proof that CGL is beyond hope, the end is nie!" as their only response to "well, maybe it's not so bad" (which itself has become the only response remaining). Debate stops being debate when its an echo chamber.

[FastJack]

Sometimes (not often, but sometimes), I hate the internet.

Before the internet, the first chance people got to see any news about movies, books or games was after the product was developed and already on the way to market. It meant that the people working on these products had a chance to make the products the best they could be.

Now, with the internet, creators announce "Hey, we're working on X!" They are immediately bombarded by fans who demand that only certain actors should be considered for the role, try to publish material without the author's permission or just try to garner new players (do I really need to link to D&D's edition wars?).

The point is (and was, and has been said before), you can't please everybody everytime. Complaining about products BEFORE they are even in development does NOT help the development process, because all it causes is forcing the developers and authors to second-guess themselves while still developing the product. Instead, they see the complaints and may go back and start re-writing what they have already completed. This means that deadline they have is incredibly closer and they can't spend as much time with FACT-CHECKING and PROOFREADING since the fans are complaining (on top of the other complaints) that the products take too long to be released.

Whether you like where Shadowrun is going or not, I genuinely appreciate each and every fan out there, because it's with fans like us that the products are sold, which means more products can be made. And, if you really, really think things are going the "wrong way" you have two choices: Stop buying the product and start writing your own timeline, events and adventures for the game, or go out and buy the IP from Topps so you can then dictate how it should be written (just remember, you're not going to please everyone, so you might wind up with some fans complaining that you're "ruining" the product they love).