[Kontact]

Yo, I don't want to put a damper on all the complaining, or complaining about complaining, but I've got a question which might be a little presumptuous.

So, like, one thing that I've universally seen praise for, regarding War!, is (I assume,) Aaron's rules for the Leadership skill.  I've got to say, I'm pretty excited about the idea of a skill which has been a skill group staple (for, what, six years?) finally getting rules to govern it.  

Here's the presumptuous part.  Any chance we could see these rules as downloadable SR4a errata?  It just seems that this is essential information which should have been included in the core rules instead of a supplement...

[Darkeus]

I find I really cannot argue too much against those points because I agree with a lot.

No, the book is not the best Sourcebook I have ever seen.  I don't think it is horrible but I can see your point of view.

I guess I tend to be a bit more patient.  I am willing to wait and see if things get better.  Trust me, I am not one to just sit and worship all things Shadowrun, if CGL screws it up then I will say something.

War! is put together rough, I will agree.  I just wouldn't call it the apocalypse just yet...   

Man, I wish I could still agree with that.  But I've followed this whole sad story so long that now I'm just bitching about the end times because I still love this fucking game.  When SR5 launches in 2015 we'll all look back on this and laugh.

Man, I love it too.  Been my go to game for 18 years now, I just won't give up on it.  I guess I just don't hate where it is at as much as others.  Hey, I can respect opinions not my own (such a novel thing on the net...

Eh, in the end, I guess we both love Shadowrun.  Isn't that what matters?  

And hey, as long as 5th edition Shadowrun doesn't jump the shark like 4th edition D&D did then I think we will be okay.  

[Otakusensei]

I find I really cannot argue too much against those points because I agree with a lot.

No, the book is not the best Sourcebook I have ever seen.  I don't think it is horrible but I can see your point of view.

I guess I tend to be a bit more patient.  I am willing to wait and see if things get better.  Trust me, I am not one to just sit and worship all things Shadowrun, if CGL screws it up then I will say something.

War! is put together rough, I will agree.  I just wouldn't call it the apocalypse just yet...   

Man, I wish I could still agree with that.  But I've followed this whole sad story so long that now I'm just bitching about the end times because I still love this fucking game.  When SR5 launches in 2015 we'll all look back on this and laugh.

Man, I love it too.  Been my go to game for 18 years now, I just won't give up on it.  I guess I just don't hate where it is at as much as others.  Hey, I can respect opinions not my own (such a novel thing on the net...

Eh, in the end, I guess we both love Shadowrun.  Isn't that what matters?  

And hey, as long as 5th edition Shadowrun doesn't jump the shark like 4th edition D&D did then I think we will be okay.  

I agree, it's all about playing the game you love.  But I think we have vastly different estimations of the ability of it's current stewards.  I deeply fear a 5th ed. by Jason Hardy.

[Otakusensei]

Yo, I don't want to put a damper on all the complaining, or complaining about complaining, but I've got a question which might be a little presumptuous.

So, like, one thing that I've universally seen praise for, regarding War!, is (I assume,) Aaron's rules for the Leadership skill.  I've got to say, I'm pretty excited about the idea of a skill which has been a skill group staple (for, what, six years?) finally getting rules to govern it.  

Here's the presumptuous part.  Any chance we could see these rules as downloadable SR4a errata?  It just seems that this is essential information which should have been included in the core rules instead of a supplement...

Including them in War! is basically the same, except for those groups that don't accept War! as playable material.  It's a shame too, because those are some solid rules and a great use for an under loved skill.

[Darkeus]

I find I really cannot argue too much against those points because I agree with a lot.

No, the book is not the best Sourcebook I have ever seen.  I don't think it is horrible but I can see your point of view.

I guess I tend to be a bit more patient.  I am willing to wait and see if things get better.  Trust me, I am not one to just sit and worship all things Shadowrun, if CGL screws it up then I will say something.

War! is put together rough, I will agree.  I just wouldn't call it the apocalypse just yet...   

Man, I wish I could still agree with that.  But I've followed this whole sad story so long that now I'm just bitching about the end times because I still love this fucking game.  When SR5 launches in 2015 we'll all look back on this and laugh.

Man, I love it too.  Been my go to game for 18 years now, I just won't give up on it.  I guess I just don't hate where it is at as much as others.  Hey, I can respect opinions not my own (such a novel thing on the net...

Eh, in the end, I guess we both love Shadowrun.  Isn't that what matters?  

And hey, as long as 5th edition Shadowrun doesn't jump the shark like 4th edition D&D did then I think we will be okay.  

I agree, it's all about playing the game you love.  But I think we have vastly different estimations of the ability of it's current stewards.  I deeply fear a 5th ed. by Jason Hardy.

Eh, I think I have more patience for seeing improvement.  I wouldn't say that is an indicator of what I think of their ability.

[Otakusensei]

I find I really cannot argue too much against those points because I agree with a lot.

No, the book is not the best Sourcebook I have ever seen.  I don't think it is horrible but I can see your point of view.

I guess I tend to be a bit more patient.  I am willing to wait and see if things get better.  Trust me, I am not one to just sit and worship all things Shadowrun, if CGL screws it up then I will say something.

War! is put together rough, I will agree.  I just wouldn't call it the apocalypse just yet...  

Man, I wish I could still agree with that.  But I've followed this whole sad story so long that now I'm just bitching about the end times because I still love this fucking game.  When SR5 launches in 2015 we'll all look back on this and laugh.

Man, I love it too.  Been my go to game for 18 years now, I just won't give up on it.  I guess I just don't hate where it is at as much as others.  Hey, I can respect opinions not my own (such a novel thing on the net...

Eh, in the end, I guess we both love Shadowrun.  Isn't that what matters?  

And hey, as long as 5th edition Shadowrun doesn't jump the shark like 4th edition D&D did then I think we will be okay.  

I agree, it's all about playing the game you love.  But I think we have vastly different estimations of the ability of it's current stewards.  I deeply fear a 5th ed. by Jason Hardy.

Eh, I think I have more patience for seeing improvement.  I wouldn't say that is an indicator of what I think of their ability.

I agree that they can most likely do better work.  But just like in my own work, if I don't do the best I can do, why do anything?  If I'm kept from doing a job to a level of satisfaction I consider professional, I would rather leave my position and find work elsewhere instead of perform substandard work.

That's why I'm so bothered by War! and the recent releases, the ones that Jason inherited as well.  I see a steady decline well past the point where they should have pulled the book and gave it another once over.  The typos again, there's just no excuse.

Man, did I want to hope that things could turn around.  But after talking to Jason initially and giving it the better part of a year, the situation is actually worse than I expected.  So if it seems like I'm not cutting them any slack, it's because I don't think they've earned any.  At other companies, people would get fired for this type of work.  I know I would.

[Jadehellbringer]

Gentlemen?

Knock it off.

Thank you.

[Otakusensei]

Gentlemen?

Knock it off.

Thank you.

I'm sorry?  I thought we were having a pretty sedate conversation about War! and the state of CGL here.  If stating my dislike of the current regime is against the TOS, I must have missed that too.

[Bull]

It's not against the TOS.  Just at this point, neither you (nor anyone arguing with you) are accomplishing anything except wasting bandwidth and creating a generally negative and combative atmosphere.  Repeating the same thing more than a couple of times just gets old, and gets really annoying, really fast (And I'm not picking on you Otaku, I'm directing this at everyone in the thread that keeps coming back to repost things over and over).

There is a point in any discussion where the people involved have to realize that they're simply circling the conversation and that it's stopped being creative, constructive, or informative.  This thread reached that point several pages back.

Bull

[Otakusensei]

It's not against the TOS.  Just at this point, neither you (nor anyone arguing with you) are accomplishing anything except wasting bandwidth and creating a generally negative and combative atmosphere.  Repeating the same thing more than a couple of times just gets old, and gets really annoying, really fast (And I'm not picking on you Otaku, I'm directing this at everyone in the thread that keeps coming back to repost things over and over).

There is a point in any discussion where the people involved have to realize that they're simply circling the conversation and that it's stopped being creative, constructive, or informative.  This thread reached that point several pages back.

Bull

That's funny, because I had a different take.  I actually caught myself being what I felt was too negative and dialing it back during the course of the thread.  And it beat a lot of DS threads because we managed to stay on topic without bringing up ridiculous or inflammatory situations and scenarios.

I'll admit I tend to rehash a bit from post to post, but it's a pretty common part of conversation.  No one is stopping anyone, including you, from bring up another section of War! and what you think/feel about it.

[FastJack]

Just remember, a lot of the freelancers/writers/developers are active on this forum and they have feelings. Discussing the good/bad of a product is okay, but when you start to question the skills and abilities of the people producing the work, it's no longer seen as polite discussion and looks a lot more like you have an axe to grind against certain persons. And I'm not saying you do, just that it appears that way to the readers of the forum.

[Otakusensei]

Just remember, a lot of the freelancers/writers/developers are active on this forum and they have feelings. Discussing the good/bad of a product is okay, but when you start to question the skills and abilities of the people producing the work, it's no longer seen as polite discussion and looks a lot more like you have an axe to grind against certain persons. And I'm not saying you do, just that it appears that way to the readers of the forum.

Nah, I do have an axe to grind, I'm not shy about that.  And there are some examples of poor work in War!.  I'm here to offer my opinion and state the facts in the product that CGL has put up for sale.  That they intend people to pay for.

On that note I'm glad that purchasing a PDF normally allows people access to updates to the PDF due to errata.  I certainly hope that the PDF is updated soon and that these errors do not find their way into print copies.  Which are notoriously more expensive to update.

(Look Mah!  New content!)

(Also, I gotta sleep sometime )

[Kontact]

Including them in War! is basically the same,

So, does that mean that Leadership rules wouldn't even be useful in a regular SR game?  Are they totally focused on squad-based combat?  If yes, why is that part of the Influence skill group instead of Intimidation?

Feh... I don't know..

I'm not into high-powered games, so War isn't currently on my agenda, but having working rules for a skill that, as of now, is almost entirely redundant... that's a plus.

[Otakusensei]

Including them in War! is basically the same,

So, does that mean that Leadership rules wouldn't even be useful in a regular SR game?  Are they totally focused on squad-based combat?  If yes, why is that part of the Influence skill group instead of Intimidation?

Feh... I don't know..

Oh, no!  I think the rules are a great addition to the game.  It's just sort of the same thing if they add them in a source book or in the core.

You're right that they should be in SR4A, and should be included in a new edition if it has similar mechanics.  But adding it into SR4A at this point is pretty difficult.  They'd have to toss it in the errata, and people tend to dislike new rules presented in the errata.  Better to leave it to a supplement, it's what they're for.  It's just a bummer that they had to appear in War!, given it's present state.

I will state though, that expanded rules for Leadership make perfect sense in a book called War!.  Especially given it's original scope.

[Critias]

Including them in War! is basically the same,

So, does that mean that Leadership rules wouldn't even be useful in a regular SR game?  Are they totally focused on squad-based combat?  If yes, why is that part of the Influence skill group instead of Intimidation?

Feh... I don't know..

I'm not into high-powered games, so War isn't currently on my agenda, but having working rules for a skill that, as of now, is almost entirely redundant... that's a plus.

As a guy who's long had characters invest in Leadership (for no good reason), I've got to say I love 'em.  I was a big Small Unit Tactics guy in SR3 (to put it mildly), so having the rules from War! comes as a real boon.

Of course, I just watched The Losers and The A-Team in the same week I ran a Shadowrun game for a new group, so I've kind of got that sort of "on the fly Leadership" on the brain, mind you...  But I honestly think the Leadership rules presented in War! are quite well done.  The payoff for a good roll isn't as potentially game-breaking as it was with SUT in SR3 (so it's not a "must-have" the way SUT could be), but they're tangible enough benefits that I think it'll just be fun to be a guy with a solid Leadership ability, using these rules.