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Lets talk WAR!

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Chaemera

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« Reply #165 on: <12-21-10/1904:13> »
Also, basic English, an uncompleted action has not been performed, if you start reading, but stop before you finish the document (say, to write down notes for an errata), then you have not read the document, you are in the process of reading the document.

If I walk to the store, I have not walked to the store until I arrive at the store. If I stop walking at the half-way point, then I can only say that I have walked half-way to the store.

Ergo, if Darkeus says he has not read War!, you may assume he has read zero, 1, or 185 (skipping the words "War" and "Catalyst Game Labs" presented on the third page of the PDF file, specifically, the B/W internal cover page).

If you don't like the imprecise and indistinct nature of the English language, I suggest Esperanto.


... Sorry, I honestly couldn't resist turning the power of English to crazy purposes... smite me if you must, but at least admit it was funny.  ;D
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Darkeus

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« Reply #166 on: <12-21-10/1908:12> »
Also, basic English, an uncompleted action has not been performed, if you start reading, but stop before you finish the document (say, to write down notes for an errata), then you have not read the document, you are in the process of reading the document.

If I walk to the store, I have not walked to the store until I arrive at the store. If I stop walking at the half-way point, then I can only say that I have walked half-way to the store.

Ergo, if Darkeus says he has not read War!, you may assume he has read zero, 1, or 185 (skipping the words "War" and "Catalyst Game Labs" presented on the third page of the PDF file, specifically, the B/W internal cover page).

If you don't like the imprecise and indistinct nature of the English language, I suggest Esperanto.


... Sorry, I honestly couldn't resist turning the power of English to crazy purposes... smite me if you must, but at least admit it was funny.  ;D

Oh, I used to be an English major back during my younger days.  I find this hilariously funny.  Why would I smite for this!  :)

Applause all the way.   
I thought what I'd do is; I would pretend I was one of those deaf-mutes.

Otakusensei

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« Reply #167 on: <12-21-10/1913:42> »
Who wrote Arbeit macht frei(other than David Hill Jr.)?  Who's voice is this?  You can't have in character writing without a character, and if it isn't in character the section is poorly written.  It stands as a shining example of the writers and the developer not knowing what they are doing, and not caring about Shadowrun.
Work Brings Freedom is NOT an in-character piece. It is written as an proposed adventure idea that a GM may use for his players.

I did notice before that someone commented on some of the Native American depictions in Shadowrun. If you want you're game to be completely politically correct on all fronts, then go ahead and play that way. You can ignore these four paragraphs in the book and still have a lot of fun with the book. I applaud the design team for working with a subject that many would not touch because of the very nature of the subject. I, for one, would handle an adventure like this very delicately because I genuinely feel for the victims of the camps, just as I feel for the Native Americans and what they went through.

To give you an idea of a touchy subject, one of my former players would get incredibly upset whenever we discussed anything to do with the Titanic sinking. And he wants to kill James Cameron for making his movie. In his case, his (great-?)grandfather died when the ship sank and it was a very personal loss to the family and a very solemn event. To see a movie make a bajillion dollars off something that his family takes very seriously is a big hardship.

And now, a list of events that, if we ban discussion of the Nazi camps, we have to also ban:

Native American genocide and relocation to reservations
Japanese-American concentration camps
"Rape Squads" that have been prominent in Eastern Europe, Africa, Mexico, Latin & South America
Slavery (past AND present)
Australian Aboriginal mistreatment
South African Apartheid
Swiss bank "neutrality" and holding Nazi gold/art/etc. stolen from Jews
The treatment of Catholics by Roman Pantheists

ugh... I could go on, but it's stuff that just pisses people off. Seriously guys, I'd rather they have the guts to say that "this could happen" in the Sixth World, rather than take a politically-correct view and ignore it.

Shadowrun shouldn't avoid subjects that bother people, and it never has.  In fact, 4th edition renewed and expanded the list of taboo subjects that Shadowrun covered.  I chose to point out, and you're defending one pretty awful section of the book.  But I chose that one section because it's pretty clear that it's garbage, should not have been printed and was a good example of the general quality of the book.  I point out the authors own attempts to back pedal on it claiming that it's meant as rumors.  I argue that is poor writing and shows a lack of understanding of the setting as well as previous material.  It leads to the greater problem, the reason I even talk about this here.

My argument is that the handling of these subjects in War! is crap.  Not the handling of them in general, or in Shadowrun, but in this book.  If you're going to cover something that big and important, that you know people are still sensitive about, then for your own sake you should do the best work you can on it.  Titanic(the movie) was a better representation of its event than Arbeit Macht Frei was a reference.  Not in a personal taste sort of way, but in the amount of work and care and polish that went into it and the shear level of insult.  It's tasteless to use a tragedy as the backdrop to a chintzy love story, but it's repulsive to suggest that you may like to role play someone going into Auschwitz to plunder the place while you destroy the ghosts of the victims of the holocaust.  That's a totally different level.  That's Uwe Boll making a movie about... oh God.

Ok, I'm stepping aside here.  As I was writing the above, and I had no idea that Uwe Boll was making a movie about Auschwitz.  Holy shit.  That's so bad I... I don't have words.  I just did a search to make sure I was spelling his name right, and I found, wow.

Take a breath, and back to the point...

The problem with War! isn't specifically the lack of editing and review.  It isn't the generally poor quality of the writing, or the writers lack of familiarity with the setting.  Those can explain each other.  It isn't even the tasteless, and honestly pointless, inclusion of settings and suggestions that offend without substance.  It's all of that.  It's the cheap feeling of the layout and low level of quality when compared with other books from the recent past.  Remember SR4A and Seattle 2072?  You think that War! is going to be winning any awards?  It's that War! is the business practices of CGL that cause and perpetuate those problems made manifest.  It's that the problems that got them into the mess where they make crap product aren't fixed yet, and War! is their report card.

Is it readable?  Yes, but it has a lot of errors.

Is it the best they could do?  It had better be, cause they want you to buy it.

Does it stand up to the books of the recent past?  No, it stands on them; and hopes you'll keep buying because you're either unaware or too enamored of copyright to care.

Is it worth the money you've spent?  No.

JM_Hardy

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« Reply #168 on: <12-21-10/1941:35> »
No, it usually means in process of.   Give it a break.

Wow, really...  Really?
I realize you'd really like retconn to that statement now, but "Haven't read" means "Haven't read", no matter how you twist and turn it.

So next time you try to discuss something, please don't take your point apart all by yourself. Leave some fun for the others.

*sigh*

Oh God, this may be hopeless.  

When I wrote said post you obviously read whatever way you wanted to see it, I had pretty much just bought the damn pdf and was browsing around seeing what people said.

Then I noticed that certain people were bashing the book, people who are still a bit bitter about how things went down.  Since I had just bought the pdf of course I had not read it yet.  I did not think it was required to inform everybody of the details of my buying habits and pdf reading schedule.  No where in the post did I say I have had the pdf and it was just sitting there.  But, this is what you want to see so of course it isn't correct, it is an assumption.

You know what they say about people who assume.  Ass and u are part of that saying.  

So, As I have been reading said pdf since making said post, I can truly say....

Stop with the bitchy little whining!  It is unbecoming....

This represents the time when this conversation should stop and we should go back to discussing the book itself before sanctions come out.
Jason M. Hardy
Shadowrun Line Developer

"The thing is, I’m serious about what I do, and the people with whom I associate are serious about what they do. We’re all serious people. Look, I can even make a serious face. See?" --Quinn Bailey

Darkeus

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« Reply #169 on: <12-21-10/1945:40> »
Indeed, just tired of the people who would criticize the book, no matter what.

The book does have faults, most egregiously the editing and spelling errors.  Heck, Bogata isn't even a place I would really use.

But the book isn't some disaster or the end of teh Shadowrun world either. 
I thought what I'd do is; I would pretend I was one of those deaf-mutes.

Chaemera

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« Reply #170 on: <12-21-10/1949:20> »
The book does have faults, most egregiously the editing and spelling errors.  Heck, Bogata isn't even a place I would really use.

Richmond and DeeCee would make for an interesting battleground...

I suppose, though, that it makes sense to be Bogata, reading over the 4e books, Aztlan and Amazonia have been gearing for war for quite a while. Logical flashpoint would be a divided city along their respective border where both could mass ground forces. So I can't fault the choice, even if war in CalFree, or Corp/Asamando swarm into a Brush War in the Kingdoms of Nigeria would have been more interesting in some regards.
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Darkeus

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« Reply #171 on: <12-21-10/1951:48> »
The book does have faults, most egregiously the editing and spelling errors.  Heck, Bogata isn't even a place I would really use.

Richmond and DeeCee would make for an interesting battleground...

I suppose, though, that it makes sense to be Bogata, reading over the 4e books, Aztlan and Amazonia have been gearing for war for quite a while. Logical flashpoint would be a divided city along their respective border where both could mass ground forces. So I can't fault the choice, even if war in CalFree, or Corp/Asamando swarm into a Brush War in the Kingdoms of Nigeria would have been more interesting in some regards.

Oh, I am not criticizing the choice of Bogata at all.  It is actually a fine choice for all the reasons you stated.

I was just saying that it is not somewhere my current campaign would be taking my PCs, I should have made that clear.  :)
I thought what I'd do is; I would pretend I was one of those deaf-mutes.

Otakusensei

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« Reply #172 on: <12-21-10/1955:32> »
Indeed, just tired of the people who would criticize the book, no matter what.

The book does have faults, most egregiously the editing and spelling errors.  Heck, Bogata isn't even a place I would really use.

But the book isn't some disaster or the end of teh Shadowrun world either. 

If it makes you feel any better I think the smartstaff is really a great idea.  Not handled the right way, not really balanced, but that goes with a lot of the book.

There are some really good ideas in War!, but they aren't given the treatment they diverse; that any Shadowrun supplement deserves.  I have a problem with CGL, I'm not trying to say I'm unbiased or that I'm even looking at this product from an unbiased perspective.  I'm saying I love this game and I hate what the current group of people that call themselves CGL are doing to it.  It worries me when I do look at a product like this and see a poor vision and a really low level of professionalism and know that people will buy it and convince themselves that it's really great; or worth $18 for the gear section.

There are flaws, a lot of flaws.  The books getting released aren't getting any better, they are getting sloppier.  That means something.

FastJack

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« Reply #173 on: <12-21-10/2003:44> »
Would I like every single book to be absolutely perfect? Yes. But you have to remember, Barry Bonds has 762 home runs (#1 of all time), but he's also got 1,757 strikeouts (15th most of all time). Not every book is going to be a home run. I'm still going to buy the ones that aren't, because I like the setting.

Darkeus

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« Reply #174 on: <12-21-10/2005:22> »
Indeed, just tired of the people who would criticize the book, no matter what.

The book does have faults, most egregiously the editing and spelling errors.  Heck, Bogata isn't even a place I would really use.

But the book isn't some disaster or the end of teh Shadowrun world either. 

If it makes you feel any better I think the smartstaff is really a great idea.  Not handled the right way, not really balanced, but that goes with a lot of the book.

There are some really good ideas in War!, but they aren't given the treatment they diverse; that any Shadowrun supplement deserves.  I have a problem with CGL, I'm not trying to say I'm unbiased or that I'm even looking at this product from an unbiased perspective.  I'm saying I love this game and I hate what the current group of people that call themselves CGL are doing to it.  It worries me when I do look at a product like this and see a poor vision and a really low level of professionalism and know that people will buy it and convince themselves that it's really great; or worth $18 for the gear section.

There are flaws, a lot of flaws.  The books getting released aren't getting any better, they are getting sloppier.  That means something.

And you actually lay out your complaints in a logical and thought out manner.  I appreciate that.

Look, everybody is allowed to have an opinion, and debate is a great thing when done with manners.  There are those however that feel like they need to bash the game no matter what and created accounts on here to do so.

The book is not perfect.  The spelling and grammar errors should have been picked up with proper editing.  There is some power creep that I can see (I am also of the opinion that most of this gear is meant for higher powered military games or runners who are half mercs).

On the other hand, I am also a long time Shadowrun fan (18 years an counting) but I am not as taken back by the changes.  The Shadowrun world cannot stay static, it has to evolve.  Look, either CGL will start to focus their vision a bit more, maybe they will eventually lose the license and someone else will grab the mantel; either way the world of Shadowrun continues to change. 

Then again, I am also of the mind that Shadowrun was truly never fully Cyberpunk to begin with.  It has always been some hybrid of Fantasy and Cyberpunk Sci-Fi.  I don't totally mind the changes to Noir and transhumanism, as the cyberpunk genre has moved to teh same themes. 

It is okay to have doubts about the direction of Shadowrun and to have an opinion about CGL and all of that, even if it is negative.  Thank you freedom  ;)

On the other hand, it is not cool to crap in other people's Cheerios and tell them they suck because they still enjoy Shadowrun and enjoy War!.  To each their own.  Not that I am saying your doing that either, just speaking in general.
« Last Edit: <12-21-10/2009:05> by Darkeus »
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Longshot23

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« Reply #175 on: <12-21-10/2041:34> »
Personally, i question the influence of Topps on CGL.  Akin to the influence of Hasbro on WotC.  Like, the game line(s) are being made secondary to business/profit.

Any announcements on this?

JM_Hardy

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« Reply #176 on: <12-21-10/2045:20> »
Personally, i question the influence of Topps on CGL.  Akin to the influence of Hasbro on WotC.  Like, the game line(s) are being made secondary to business/profit.

Any announcements on this?


Topps doesn't have a ton of influence on the game line. They've been very cooperative and gracious about letting us do our thing, so I wouldn't blame them.

Jason H.
Jason M. Hardy
Shadowrun Line Developer

"The thing is, I’m serious about what I do, and the people with whom I associate are serious about what they do. We’re all serious people. Look, I can even make a serious face. See?" --Quinn Bailey

Otakusensei

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« Reply #177 on: <12-21-10/2123:17> »
Indeed, just tired of the people who would criticize the book, no matter what.

The book does have faults, most egregiously the editing and spelling errors.  Heck, Bogata isn't even a place I would really use.

But the book isn't some disaster or the end of teh Shadowrun world either. 

If it makes you feel any better I think the smartstaff is really a great idea.  Not handled the right way, not really balanced, but that goes with a lot of the book.

There are some really good ideas in War!, but they aren't given the treatment they diverse; that any Shadowrun supplement deserves.  I have a problem with CGL, I'm not trying to say I'm unbiased or that I'm even looking at this product from an unbiased perspective.  I'm saying I love this game and I hate what the current group of people that call themselves CGL are doing to it.  It worries me when I do look at a product like this and see a poor vision and a really low level of professionalism and know that people will buy it and convince themselves that it's really great; or worth $18 for the gear section.

There are flaws, a lot of flaws.  The books getting released aren't getting any better, they are getting sloppier.  That means something.

And you actually lay out your complaints in a logical and thought out manner.  I appreciate that.

Look, everybody is allowed to have an opinion, and debate is a great thing when done with manners.  There are those however that feel like they need to bash the game no matter what and created accounts on here to do so.

The book is not perfect.  The spelling and grammar errors should have been picked up with proper editing.  There is some power creep that I can see (I am also of the opinion that most of this gear is meant for higher powered military games or runners who are half mercs).

On the other hand, I am also a long time Shadowrun fan (18 years an counting) but I am not as taken back by the changes.  The Shadowrun world cannot stay static, it has to evolve.  Look, either CGL will start to focus their vision a bit more, maybe they will eventually lose the license and someone else will grab the mantel; either way the world of Shadowrun continues to change. 

Then again, I am also of the mind that Shadowrun was truly never fully Cyberpunk to begin with.  It has always been some hybrid of Fantasy and Cyberpunk Sci-Fi.  I don't totally mind the changes to Noir and transhumanism, as the cyberpunk genre has moved to teh same themes. 

It is okay to have doubts about the direction of Shadowrun and to have an opinion about CGL and all of that, even if it is negative.  Thank you freedom  ;)

On the other hand, it is not cool to crap in other people's Cheerios and tell them they suck because they still enjoy Shadowrun and enjoy War!.  To each their own.  Not that I am saying your doing that either, just speaking in general.

Opinions are one thing, facts are another.  The book feels like it was thrown together, I don't think that's a stylistic choice.  The typos are a perfect example of what I'm saying.  With a little more time, with a closer eye to detail and a better understanding of the tools this could have been an alright book.  With a better vision it may have been a great book.  I'll let people shoot it out over style choices any day, to each their own.  But I don't like sloppy work.  And it really bothers me when people try to explain away very clear flaws that could have been, and in the past have been, avoided.  I remember getting pissed at some hairy grammar on the back cover of Seattle 2072.  War! is a far cry from that level of disappointment, in the wrong direction.

Shadowrun hasn't been static at all, and I don't want it to be.  I just want to see it get better with each release.  4th ed made a boat load of changes to the system and the setting that have in some places only been touched on.  A lot of that was Rob and crew, and honestly I liked most of the changes, and accepted the others because it was by and large consistent and for the most part well presented.  Someone cared and it showed.  SR4 and SR4A were handled well for the most part, save some pretty questionable AI rules and a weak hacking system.  I don't really care for Frank Trollman's replacement, and I admit the matrix as it appears in SR4A is the best yet.  But it makes things difficult sometimes, like when you're a hacker.  Or an AI.  That's why Shadowrun needs a solid and knowledgeable line developer with a strong vision and a firm grasp on the setting.  That's why it need freelancers who know and love the setting, maybe more than is strictly healthy.  It's not an easy system to write for, especially with SR4's style of including everything as a template to be tweaked and upgraded as somewhat modular.

Also, the guy who calls himself Fastjack?  There's always a point in every athletes life when they need to recognize that they just don't have it anymore.

I won't even go into the doping.

Darkeus

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« Reply #178 on: <12-21-10/2131:47> »
I find I really cannot argue too much against those points because I agree with a lot.

No, the book is not the best Sourcebook I have ever seen.  I don't think it is horrible but I can see your point of view.

I guess I tend to be a bit more patient.  I am willing to wait and see if things get better.  Trust me, I am not one to just sit and worship all things Shadowrun, if CGL screws it up then I will say something.

War! is put together rough, I will agree.  I just wouldn't call it the apocalypse just yet...   :)
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Otakusensei

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« Reply #179 on: <12-21-10/2158:12> »
I find I really cannot argue too much against those points because I agree with a lot.

No, the book is not the best Sourcebook I have ever seen.  I don't think it is horrible but I can see your point of view.

I guess I tend to be a bit more patient.  I am willing to wait and see if things get better.  Trust me, I am not one to just sit and worship all things Shadowrun, if CGL screws it up then I will say something.

War! is put together rough, I will agree.  I just wouldn't call it the apocalypse just yet...   :)

Man, I wish I could still agree with that.  But I've followed this whole sad story so long that now I'm just bitching about the end times because I still love this fucking game.  When SR5 launches in 2015 we'll all look back on this and laugh.