[Revenant]

!!! warning, wall of text!!!

Collected grumblings and debugging for stuff in war.

Concerning Slow spell:

What force is required to slow things up.
When 1 success slows up to 200kg mass.
And force restricts amount of eligible successes. F1 spell max successes 1 and so on..

Battle rifles...

IRL, you are firing a 7.62x51mm round, which has been pointed out is the default medium machine gun round, think US M60. The difference between the M60 (full auto) and say the FN FAL is weight, the FN FAL weighs 9.81 lbs. while the M60 weighs in at 23 lbs. Simple physics, the heavier M60 doesn't transfer the same amount of recoil to the use that the lighter FN FAL does. One of the major reasons for going to the 5.56x45mm round was the desire to achieve greater accuracy by reducing the felt recoil, which was found to precipitate flinching on the part of the shooter. The velocity of the 5.56x45mm at the muzzle is 3,100 fps (62gr. FMJBT) while the 7.62x51mm is 2,800 fps (150gr. FMJ). Negligible difference in velocity really, however...energy it is vastly different, 7.62x51mm has 2,584 ft. lbs. vs 5.56x45mm with 1,309 ft. lbs..

Okay, using quick and dirty conversion into meters and kilograms (1 meter= 3 feet and 1 kilogram = 2 lbs) and given stats.
Single 7.62 round has approximately 430,66 m.kg energy. Meaning a force 3 spell is required to stop a single round. Up to and including 6 rounds the formula for required spell force is twice the amount of rounds +1. Seventh round changes the formula to twice the amount of rounds +2. Full burst requiring force 22 spell with 22 successes.. Doesn't seem that broken anymore...

5.56 rounds ended up with appromately 218,16 m.kg energy. Meaning force 2 to stop single round. And result formula is number of rounds +1 all the way to 10 rounds. So full burst requires force 11 spell with 11 successes.

Moving metahumans are entirely different matter. And I am not exacly certain of my math (I am no mathematician), but weight multiplied by speed should give us the moving energy which the spell is sipping away. Using average weight and speed from SR4A.
Combat round is 3 seconds long. A troll on average weights 300kg, and can move 15/35 meters walking/running in a round.
5 meters/second for 300 kg is 1500 m.kg worth of energy, requiring a force 8 spell to affect the walking troll.
11 meters/second while running means 3300 m.kg worth of energy, requiring force 18 spell.

A dwarf 50 kg to keep it simple (it's a skinny dwarf) and 8/20 movement.
2 m/s x50kg = 100m.kg/second = force 1 spell.
6 m/s x50kg = 300m.kg/second = force 2 spell.

Humans and elves calculated with weight of 80 kg, orks 120 kg. Speed for all three 10/25.
3m/s x 80kg = 240m.kg/second = force 2 for humands and elves.
3m/s x 120kg = 360m.kg/sec = force 2 for orks.
8m/s x 80kg = 640m.kg/sec = force 4 for humans and elves.
8m/s x 120kg = 960m.kg/sec =force 5 for orks.

Hmm.. Assuming my calculations are even remotely correct, I can claim this spell is not broken. But is there any need for spell like this? for combat, stun spells take the enemy out easier. For area denial there is the new cloud spell. And even for its designated purpose, the halo jumps, we have the working halo 'chutes themselves, and spells like levitate and catfall (altough the catfall is only for short distances).

For protective purposes we already had the armor spell, which does not break until sustaining is stopped, no matter how many rounds it soaks.

Still need to figure how this spell would effect explosions. What force to mitigate what size of an explosion and so on. But given this numbercrunching I might actually allow this spell to my players.

Recharge spell:

Where can I find how long the caster needs to sustain the spell until it becomes permanent on different battery sizes. Without any information on that, one might as well assume a mage can recharge a battery large enough to power up a city with neglictable (sp.?) effort.

Battle rifles:

Medium machineguns already had stat of damage 6, ap -2. So shouldn't a battle rifle firing same cartridge have same damage? It is too easy to make a FA capable battle rifle and thus obsolete medium machineguns. I think I will restat BRs to MMG damage/AP to keep things consisted.

Otherwise I miss maps and timeline of the conflict, and layouts of 6th world armies. And strategic goals for all involved factions.

 

[Mäx]

Battle rifles:
Medium machineguns already had stat of damage 6, ap -2. So shouldn't a battle rifle firing same cartridge have same damage? It is too easy to make a FA capable battle rifle and thus obsolete medium machineguns. I think I will restat BRs to MMG damage/AP to keep things consisted.

I would devinedly do it the other way around and restat MMG:s to same dame code as battle rifles and HMG:s to somethink like 8P AP -2 or 3

Because to me personally at least the battle rifles stats make a whole lot more sense then the RAW stats for machine-guns do

[Revenant]

I would devinedly do it the other way around and restat MMG:s to same dame code as battle rifles and HMG:s to somethink like 8P AP -2 or 3

Because to me personally at least the battle rifles stats make a whole lot more sense then the RAW stats for machine-guns do

That's the other possibility. Will have to figure something out before my next game 

[Sengir]

Oh, and once again you conveniently disregarded the first line of my post quoting the explanation of what exactly Ghosts are in SR.

The fact is that ghosts exist in SR and have existed for a long time before WAR was written and it's also pretty much a fact that ghosts in SR aren't actually spirits of the dead.
You seem to be selectively ignoring a lot of prior setting material just so you have more think to whine about in regard to that piece of WAR.

Funny, I could have sworn that in my very first post in this thread I already wrote something about what ghosts are, what they are not, and how the "angry and hungry dead" with their "past existences" violate these concepts. Matter of fact, I still see it at the top of page 8...

[Cochise]

Okay, using quick and dirty conversion into meters and kilograms (1 meter= 3 feet and 1 kilogram = 2 lbs) and given stats.
Single 7.62 round has approximately 430,66 m.kg energy. Meaning a force 3 spell is required to stop a single round. Up to and including 6 rounds the formula for required spell force is twice the amount of rounds +1. Seventh round changes the formula to twice the amount of rounds +2. Full burst requiring force 22 spell with 22 successes.. Doesn't seem that broken anymore...

5.56 rounds ended up with appromately 218,16 m.kg energy. Meaning force 2 to stop single round. And result formula is number of rounds +1 all the way to 10 rounds. So full burst requires force 11 spell with 11 successes.

Moving metahumans are entirely different matter. And I am not exacly certain of my math (I am no mathematician), but weight multiplied by speed should give us the moving energy which the spell is sipping away. Using average weight and speed from SR4A.
Combat round is 3 seconds long. A troll on average weights 300kg, and can move 15/35 meters walking/running in a round.
5 meters/second for 300 kg is 1500 m.kg worth of energy, requiring a force 8 spell to affect the walking troll.
11 meters/second while running means 3300 m.kg worth of energy, requiring force 18 spell.

A dwarf 50 kg to keep it simple (it's a skinny dwarf) and 8/20 movement.
2 m/s x50kg = 100m.kg/second = force 1 spell.
6 m/s x50kg = 300m.kg/second = force 2 spell.

Humans and elves calculated with weight of 80 kg, orks 120 kg. Speed for all three 10/25.
3m/s x 80kg = 240m.kg/second = force 2 for humands and elves.
3m/s x 120kg = 360m.kg/sec = force 2 for orks.
8m/s x 80kg = 640m.kg/sec = force 4 for humans and elves.
8m/s x 120kg = 960m.kg/sec =force 5 for orks.

Hmm.. Assuming my calculations are even remotely correct, I can claim this spell is not broken.

Your main error is that you obviously confused momentum with mass, despite using the correct formulas. The bullet weight for each weapon you used in your example is way below 200kg under these non-relativistic conditions. The spell description is talking about reducing the kinetic energy (and by implication also the momentum) of any object with a mass below 200kg per net hit => Despite having a momentum (mass * velocity) way over 200kg*m/s each individual bullet of a burst still has only a mass below 200kg and thus is subject to the spell's effect even at force 1. Hell even many artillery shells do not exceed a projectile mass of 200kg per individual round. So all bullets in your example would enter the area of effect and then being slowed down to a speed of 1 m/s and their momentum would be decreased accordingly. Going deeper into the physical implications of that spell you'll sooner or later end up with the fact that this spell breaks newton physics and possibly relativistics on so many levels that it seriously get's into a position where it more or less alters the fabric of time and space ... something that sorcery in SR is unable to do according to it's very own definition.

Still need to figure how this spell would effect explosions.

Since the spell does not exclude the gas molecules within the area of effect and explictily includes explosions as being affected there's not much need to "figure out" something. Neither (larger) object below a mass of 200kg nor the explosion's blast itself are unaffected => The blast's movement as well as any shrapnell with a mass of less than 200kg would be restricted to a travelling speed of 1 m/s within the area of effect beginning with force 1. The spell description simply doesn't care for momentum, (physical) force or derived pressure values despite mentioning that force is unaffected and only velocity being "restricted". So the explosion's effects are more or less limited to it's thermal and optical effects.

[Revenant]

Your main error is that you obviously confused momentum with mass, despite using the correct formulas. The bullet weight for each weapon you used in your example is way below 200kg under these non-relativistic conditions. The spell description is talking about reducing the kinetic energy (and by implication also the momentum) of any object with a mass below 200kg per net hit => Despite having a momentum (mass * velocity) way over 200kg*m/s each individual bullet of a burst still has only a mass below 200kg and thus is subject to the spell's effect even at force 1. Hell even many artillery shells do not exceed a projectile mass of 200kg per individual round. So all bullets in your example would enter the area of effect and then being slowed down to a speed of 1 m/s and their momentum would be decreased accordingly. Going deeper into the physical implications of that spell you'll sooner or later end up with the fact that this spell breaks newton physics and possibly relativistics on so many levels that it seriously get's into a position where it more or less alters the fabric of time and space ... something that sorcery in SR is unable to do according to it's very own definition.

Whoops.

Obviously I am no physician either 

Indeed the spell talks about mass moving in area, not the amount of momentum in the area. In an effort to make this spell working, changing the mass to momentum might be suitable. Magicians do not need an immunity spell.

[Mäx]

Funny, I could have sworn that in my very first post in this thread I already wrote something about what ghosts are, what they are not, and how the "angry and hungry dead" with their "past existences" violate these concepts. Matter of fact, I still see it at the top of page 8...

Yes and i quoted you on that and posted exactly what ghosts are in SR, im not suprised i have to state this again, as you seem very keen on ignoring that part of my post in your search of more stuff to whine about considering that piece of bad writing.
Pointing out errors is one think, but attacking the writer on stuff that has been canon for years isn't really cool.

[machineiv]

Funny, I could have sworn that in my very first post in this thread I already wrote something about what ghosts are, what they are not, and how the "angry and hungry dead" with their "past existences" violate these concepts. Matter of fact, I still see it at the top of page 8...

Just a curiosity. If I'd have written, "believed past existences," or "would-be past existences," would you still be arguing this point?

[Chaemera]

On the Slow spell, remember that it's Total Mass in the affected area, not mass of each object.

The spell ends when the caster stops sustaining it or the amount of mass moving in the area of effect exceeds 200kg per hit on the Spellcasting test.

So, two people walking through the area (average male american mass = 86.6 kg) with full kit (100 pounds for the USMC, roughly 45.4 kg, including weapon IIRC) you now have 264 kg of soldier moving through the area. Add in a third person, you have 396. So, a three man SpecOps team requires Force 2 just to create a kinetics-proof area around them. And don't forget that they're moving at 1 m/s, themselves, so an ally wouldn't want to cast this on them.

If you cast it between your people and the enemy, they go around and start shooting again, congrats, you've blocked one line of fire, might have been better off using Physical Barrier. Best use would be to cast it on top of the enemy, slowing their escape, but remember, for every 3 enemies, you need 2 points of Force. On a battlefield, with shots fired, kg in the area will change quickly.

What the spell needs an errrata for is to put Object Resistance firmly and clearly on the table.
If you use Object Resistance, then it needs 3 hits before it affects bullets or grenades (Manufactured High-Tech Objects and Materials, which includes metal alloys) and 5+ to stop a missile (Highly Processed Objects, including computers, drones and vehicles, I think a missile counts). And let the soldiers resist with Body, for crying out loud.

If you want to get silly with the physics implication, don't forget to calculate in the grass shifting in the wind, air molecules moving, the molecules of the earth vibrating... I've yet to meet a game interface with physics that doesn't get silly at the extremes.

Edit
To correct spelling.

Also, wouldn't destroying kinetic energy be considered a "Major Change", thus imposing an extra +2 Drain (+1 Physical Spell, +2 AoE is what I figure the current +3 is from).
I think the same argument could be made for Levitate, come to think of it, since that spell essentially says "gravity, go away". Something about ignoring fundamental physics just screams "Major Change" to me...

[Sengir]

as you seem very keen on ignoring that part of my post

I ignore points which already have been addressed. My very first posting already described why "there have been ghosts in Auschwitz since SR3" misses the point AND paraphrased the omniscient view of them in both 3rd and 4th edition.
So since then your replies to me so far have consisted of "there have been ghosts in Auschwitz since SR3" and repititions of the rules for ghosts, both being points I already dealt with, what exactly should I tell you? C&P my previous replies?


@machineiv: While reading War, I often thought "great, but that doesn't sound like Shadowrun at all". So yes, some relatively minor terminology changes would already have done a lot to make it sound less like "loot the ForbiddenTomb of f-ing Darkness" - which also says a lot about the state of CGL's editorial work. As said over on DS, probably more about that than about the actual writers.
But at least your attention grabbing with Nazi references worked out perfectly. Without the heading I would probably not have picked that part as an example of what went wrong with War, and a lot of other people would probably have ignored it, too

[Chaemera]

as you seem very keen on ignoring that part of my post

I ignore points which already have been addressed. My very first posting already described why "there have been ghosts in Auschwitz since SR3" misses the point AND paraphrased the omniscient view of them in both 3rd and 4th edition.
So since then your replies to me so far have consisted of "there have been ghosts in Auschwitz since SR3" and repititions of the rules for ghosts, both being points I already dealt with, what exactly should I tell you? C&P my previous replies?

You didn't address it very constructively...

Here's what you said:

Ghosts that have been there since SR3, six years ago.

Spirits which are called "ghosts" have been around since some time. However, in tune with the "belief makes reality" approach towards magical traditions, the exact nature of these entities has always been left open to the beliefs of the player/character. They may be the actual spirits of the dead, or they may be malicious impositors, or even just believe that they are the "rebirth" of a certain person (just like some IRL people do). Establishing ghosts, and pre-awakeing one to boot, throws all of these conventions overboard. And it brings a jackload of unfortunate consequences - just imagine what would happen if the ghost of a dead corpsec could get back to point the finger at you.

Here's why that doesn't address it:
The tone of the War! article sounds more certain that they are "ghosts" than you like, okay; however, if someone tells me "Ghosts" in SR4A, from a RAW perspective, look up the SR4A definition of ghosts to discover:

There are few spirits more controversial, especially among mundanes, than the entities lumped together as ghosts. Most magicians believe that these malicious beings are nothing more than wild Spirits of Man. However, most mundanes feel that these things are tied to teh souls of metahumans who have died. Legally, neither side has a leg to stand on in most countries, though there are a few backwaters where ghost testimonies are admissible in court. Psychologically, these spirits often have inexplicable levels of information about the lives of the deceased = though even those who ascribe to the beliefs in their metahuman origins admit that ghosts can lie.

So anytime someone says there's a "ghost" in Shadowrun, regardless of in-game or out-of-game omniscient context, go back to that definition and discover, lo and behold, that they may or may not actually be ghosts in the real world sense of the word. Further, the article in War! doesn't say they show up in the 1940's or the 2010's or 2050's (I realize that the SR3 book which originally covers this ground does actually give a more detailed history, that's not the point).

Personally, I shrug my shoulders, at "ghosts" from the 5th World. Weirder things happen in Shadowrun than the sudden appearance of "ghosts" representative of 5th age atrocities. Except to consider the whole using RW tragedy for game world plot hooks potentially bad form. Though I do like the
 potential "grant them rest" plot line suggested by several.

You'll also notice that, in that very description, they cite ghosts being used as witnesses in jury trials. This idea is presented in the 6WA, as well:

In Charleston, South Carolina, the first ever case solved with the help of one of the criminal victim’s ghosts is closed by Julius Wren, a magician with degrees in both criminology and thaumaturgy. The serial killer is captured after Wren studies the ghost’s actions, which revealed evidence that led to the murderer’s arrest and conviction.

So yes, you did give a reason to dislike how he worded things, but your reason ignored established definitions, metaplot, and backstory. Try again.

[Mäx]

Chamaera thanks for butting that down with more eloquent words then what i could muster in my trutration with him.

[Revenant]

One final time on slow spell.

Different approach this time.
Problem: area denial/immunity effect it grants at very low force.
Solution: remove the area.

Making this spell target: los, allows it to excel in its primary purpose (halo jumps, and other single target speed alterations) while negating the troublesome "sphere of immunity". Since the drain value would also be lowered, making multacasting trivial for medium-high power magicians, it would still be eligible for group insertations. Group of three human spec ops needing 3 F1 spells.

I have wasted enough time and forum space with this spell already.

[Kot]

Personally, I shrug my shoulders, at "ghosts" from the 5th World. Weirder things happen in Shadowrun than the sudden appearance of "ghosts" representative of 5th age atrocities. Except to consider the whole using RW tragedy for game world plot hooks potentially bad form. Though I do like the
 potential "grant them rest" plot line suggested by several.

Well, there are ghosts in Earthdawn. Like Namegiver spirits (souls) that say behind on purpose, or can be summoned. Nethermancers can also summon Namegiver spirits, if they know their Name. Also, there's a few types of undead made from Namegiver spirits - shades, demiwraiths, and such. So, there's a way. And if you look at the SR history, you might easily consider that it's not really a common knowledge.
As for the Auschwitz 'evil spirits', they're more 'human spirits(souls?) tormented by the corruption(emotional bacground count) of the areas, and their own memories(or remnants of those). Don't count any spirits of their captors - i didn't manage to find any info on deaths there. So it's possible there weren't any.
So, yes, they are evil. But more like those from ED, they were twisted into being 'evil' by the sheer corruption of the place.

[Sengir]

that they may or may not actually be ghosts in the real world sense of the word.

Exactly. While in the Arbeit macht frei section, we learn that the ghosts are "the angry and hungry dead [...] living out echoes of their past existences as harmless villagers." No maybe, just here be ghosts. Undead ghosts with necromatic treasures. Like foci which just popped into existence without being dual-natured.

You'll also notice that, in that very description, they cite ghosts being used as witnesses in jury trials. This idea is presented in the 6WA, as well:

1.) The idea of spirits guiding investigators to the victim's body or other evidence actually dates back to SM
2.) This is perfectly compatible with the idea of wild spirits which are just somehow connected to the dead or the murder itself
3.) According to the 6WA, West Berlin was "liberated" 25 years ago, making the current date 2081. And the black flood did nothing to the European coastline. And the whole leadership of some japancorp committed suicide TWICE. And...