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Lets talk WAR!

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Sengir

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« Reply #105 on: <12-18-10/1145:50> »
[...]
Well, you said we should not be afraid to take our criticism here, so I'm just going to start my career with a crosspost from DS: ;)

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So, really, all War! did was knock down the barrier
First of all, it turned an Astral Barrier into an impenetrable magic dome straight from your favourity fantasy cliche. Even if the backstory got changed to incorporate the Silvestrines pimping their barrier, the question would be how they did it. The knowledge to turn a place into a proto-Caer is not exactly commonplace, and I doubt the Tir Elves are trading.

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and introduce some guy to spread rumors about necromantic artifacts (which a GM may or may not want to stat up), in order to get people to pay him money and equip themselves to try and go kill ghosts.
So this sounds like an in-character rumor section to you?
As a function of this, when the weapon is in hand, the character is considered distracted and suffers a –4 dice pool modifierer to all Perception Tests. If she attempts to Observe in Detail as a Simple Action, she only suffers a –2 dice pool modifier.
Reach: 0, Damage: (Str/2+4)P, AP: –2, Availability: N/A (unique item), Market Value: 10,000¥

(The weapon in question is the favourite scalpel of Eduard Wirths, the runner's Arbeit which Macht Frei is to recover it)

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Ghosts that have been there since SR3, six years ago.
Spirits which are called "ghosts" have been around since some time. However, in tune with the "belief makes reality" approach towards magical traditions, the exact nature of these entities has always been left open to the beliefs of the player/character. They may be the actual spirits of the dead, or they may be malicious impositors, or even just believe that they are the "rebirth" of a certain person (just like some IRL people do). Establishing ghosts, and pre-awakeing one to boot, throws all of these conventions overboard. And it brings a jackload of unfortunate consequences - just imagine what would happen if the ghost of a dead corpsec could get back to point the finger at you.

Additional stuff which does not fit
- The idea of Auschwitz as a "treasure trove" with its "necromatic artifacts". Shadowrun is not your "magic items everywhere" universe. Foci do not pop into existence just from being exposed to magic, complete with attunement to the place's background count. They do not take a life of their own. They DO become dual-natured, which the blade in question is not - rules-wise the mysterious magic blade is an ordinary knife with upped stats, not a weapon focus
- - Now let us suppose such an item, which violates everything known about enchanting so far, and dates back to before the Awakening, did indeed exist in the universe. Every corp and research group even remotely involved with magic would pay millions to get a look at it, not a puny 10k.
- Weapons which take down ghosts. Again, this sounds like the magic Sword of Doom +5, not like Shadowrun.
- The "cabal of wizards" thing. Sure, there are magic groups, but it just sounds...I guess I'm repeating myself
« Last Edit: <12-18-10/1150:55> by Sengir »

Kot

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« Reply #106 on: <12-18-10/1522:31> »
First of all, it turned an Astral Barrier into an impenetrable magic dome straight from your favourity fantasy cliche. Even if the backstory got changed to incorporate the Silvestrines pimping their barrier, the question would be how they did it. The knowledge to turn a place into a proto-Caer is not exactly commonplace, and I doubt the Tir Elves are trading.
Kaer. And it's not like a Kaer. More like a Citadel. And it doesn't have to withstand Horror attacks, just keep the twisted spirits inside. That's probably why it's easier to set up and maintain. Just remember, you can make a Force 12 dual Barrier with a starting character. Or even better, if you take a Power Focus. Now imagine what a whole order of Christian mages(i bet they pack heavy protection spells) can do. Especially if they've been keeping that wall up for a long time.

- Weapons which take down ghosts. Again, this sounds like the magic Sword of Doom +5, not like Shadowrun.
Weapon Foci. A +1 sword, for example. We have these already in SR.

As for the rest of it, you're discussing content of War!. I haven't seen that yet, so i can't really say anything.
Mariusz "Kot" Butrykowski
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Mäx

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« Reply #107 on: <12-18-10/1527:14> »
Spirits which are called "ghosts" have been around since some time. However, in tune with the "belief makes reality" approach towards magical traditions, the exact nature of these entities has always been left open to the beliefs of the player/character. They may be the actual spirits of the dead, or they may be malicious impositors, or even just believe that they are the "rebirth" of a certain person (just like some IRL people do). Establishing ghosts, and pre-awakeing one to boot, throws all of these conventions overboard.
Considering that according to Running Wild "ghosts are wild spirits that have become imprinted by the dead, turning up as echoes of the deceased", i fail to see the problem in existance of those ghosts.
And as was pointed out to you over at dumpshock, there has been ghosts in Auschwitz since SOE, so this isn't really a valid complaint against the new book.
"An it harm none, do what you will"

machineiv

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« Reply #108 on: <12-18-10/1815:06> »
So this sounds like an in-character rumor section to you?
As a function of this, when the weapon is in hand, the character is considered distracted and suffers a –4 dice pool modifierer to all Perception Tests. If she attempts to Observe in Detail as a Simple Action, she only suffers a –2 dice pool modifier.
Reach: 0, Damage: (Str/2+4)P, AP: –2, Availability: N/A (unique item), Market Value: 10,000¥

(The weapon in question is the favourite scalpel of Eduard Wirths, the runner's Arbeit which Macht Frei is to recover it)

I mentioned that as a rumored item, but I didn't stat it. I guess it got statted up in the final draft pass. Sorry about that.
-David A Hill Jr
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http://www.machineageproductions.com/

John Schmidt

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« Reply #109 on: <12-18-10/1847:20> »
Battle rifles...

IRL, you are firing a 7.62x51mm round, which has been pointed out is the default medium machine gun round, think US M60. The difference between the M60 (full auto) and say the FN FAL is weight, the FN FAL weighs 9.81 lbs. while the M60 weighs in at 23 lbs. Simple physics, the heavier M60 doesn't transfer the same amount of recoil to the use that the lighter FN FAL does. One of the major reasons for going to the 5.56x45mm round was the desire to achieve greater accuracy by reducing the felt recoil, which was found to precipitate flinching on the part of the shooter. The velocity of the 5.56x45mm at the muzzle is 3,100 fps (62gr. FMJBT) while the 7.62x51mm is 2,800 fps (150gr. FMJ). Negligible difference in velocity really, however...energy it is vastly different, 7.62x51mm has 2,584 ft. lbs. vs 5.56x45mm with 1,309 ft. lbs..

SR.
We really have three scales...dwarf, human, and troll. A battle rifle for a dwarf would be unwieldy by virtue of its length. For a human it would deliver a lot of recoil and not be fun to shoot. A troll would find the battle rifle a wee bit small. If you scale up the battle rifle to better fit the troll you add weight to the weapon which would really negate the felt recoil and I think that the temptation would be to upsize the caliber of round being fired. Carrying out this line of thought (again IMO) you end up with a troll armed with a battle rifle that is shooting a cartridge that is 60-70% more powerful than what your average human would be comfortable shooting. So, the troll gets even more combat punch, not sure how that would go over really.
It's not the one with your name on it; it's the one addressed "to whom it may concern" you've got to think about.

Sengir

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« Reply #110 on: <12-18-10/1855:35> »
Kaer. And it's not like a Kaer. More like a Citadel. And it doesn't have to withstand Horror attacks, just keep the twisted spirits inside.
That would be the old ward. The new one is your standard "magic dome" and supposedly kept people both in and out. Which was bad enough, until the author tried to explain it as "something similar to the one in Tir na nOg". Si tacuisses...

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- Weapons which take down ghosts. Again, this sounds like the magic Sword of Doom +5, not like Shadowrun.
Exactly. There are terms for it, yet the author did not use them. And they are not hard to come by (avail R*5 if memory serves), which the author seems to have ignored. Just like many other parts of the book, the writers seemed to be blissfully ignorant of both the hard rules and fluff. When reading the book, I was constantly thinking "nice story, but where's the common thread and the Shadowrun in it?"

@Mäx: SoE is an in-character account. Characters can believe in ghosts, consider the Aesir as the only true gods and believe the Azzies' spin as much as they want. Proclaiming "here be ghosts, the Norse tradition got it right and Aztech actually are nice fellows" out of character is something different altogether. ;)

John Schmidt

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« Reply #111 on: <12-18-10/1925:24> »
The Ghost issue...

With a last name of Schmidt...well let us just say I would not have gone that route. I am not, implying any malice on the part of the author. SR deals with a lot of hot button issues, racism, violence, addiction, religion, etc., the fact that we are operating in a fictional future we often work in the 'what can I bring new to the table' mode. The drive to bring something new to the setting is ever present and can put blinders on us, it has for me.

When writing up the JIS entry...specifically the Aokigahara Forest section...I was excited at first when it was listed as a site of interest. Then I did a Google search and saw the photos of some of the people who have commited suicide there, not a yearbook photo of them but how they were found in the forest. What started out as something that I thought was going to be a cool adventure hook turned into a real torment to write. In the end, I was not happy with the result but I didn't know how to do a write up that would be both respectful of the human tragedy involved and the desire to create something interesting for GM's.
It's not the one with your name on it; it's the one addressed "to whom it may concern" you've got to think about.

Ancient History

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« Reply #112 on: <12-18-10/1959:08> »
Hey, shadowkids. It has been some little while. As much as I've been trying to distance myself from CGL and Shadowrun under its current direction, I would like to step in for just a moment and provide a bit of perspective on War! and its development.

Just in the interest of full disclosure, I'm not an unbiased observer. Spoiler alert on the rest of the links in this paragraph, you have been warned. The current crop of freelancers and I have our differences, and one of the last things I did before Jason asked for me to be booted from the freelancing pool is voice my opinion on War! and the upcoming plot.

War! didn't begin with SR line developer Jason M. Hardy, or War! writers Aaron Pavao, David Hill, Filamena Young, and Michael Wich. It started out as a proposal by former SR line dev Peter "Synner" Taylor, and that book - which was to be titled Dogs of War, but which had to be renamed because White Wolf published their own book of the same title before War! was finished - was a very different animal. Really, it was supposed to be a massive update and re-imagining of the Fields of Fire sourcebook, detailing miltech, military hotspots, and how to run a mercenary campaign.

Dogs of War was never made, and Peter Taylor didn't last as line dev. In the interim, as the production schedule slowed to a crawl, the focus and concept of the book that was to be War! changed substantially. By the time I left, Bogotá had taken a prominent place in the book - the argument being that it would present an alternative campaign style (mercenaries instead of shadowrunners) and a ready-made setting to accommodate that style (war-torn Bogotá). There was a great deal of argument about this among freelancers - I personally did not feel Bogotá was exactly a mercenary hotspot, among other reasons.

Really, I had almost nothing to do with War! before I left. I remember reviewing some of the early drafts about Bogotá (I believe I impolitely referred to a lot of it as simply "shit," which wasn't terribly productive), and I might have spoken to Aaron once or twice on mechanics - but that's it. I was out before the final drafts were complete. So, I can't say exactly what went on in the editorial process, but given my experience under the current developer, I can guess.

Freelancers are paid to write, not edit or fact-check someone else's work. In the past, freelancers who had the time and the devotion would go over the drafts before or after layout, looking for the errors that creep in. Catching typos and silly mistakes is a labor of love, generally thankless and always unpaid. I can't tell you definitively if that did or did not happen with War!, but given the state of the document - and again, my experience with the SR line developer - I would be very surprised if this is the case.

Please understand, I'm not making a qualitative judgment about the writing. Whatever my personal feelings towards David Hill, I think he and Filamena Young are fine and technically proficient writers. I have worked in the past with Aaron on SR projects, and while we may well argue and butt heads on many things, I respect his ability to write and work. Michael Wich's work I am not generally familiar with, but I doubt he would be responsible for the excess of typographical and language errors found throughout the book. The presence of these errors is a quantitative measure of the book's editorial stage, and by that standard War! was very poorly edited indeed.

Before I left, the SR line developer had already frustrated several freelancers with his general unwillingness to incorporate suggested corrections. There were many corrections to problems in the Sixth World Almanac and Corporate Guide that freelancers had noted and posted corrections to weeks before the final draft was sent to the printers which were completely ignored, and which found their way into the final products. I personally wasted several days trying to put in corrected stats for PACKS, after errors had unintentionally been introduced during the proofing stage.

Jason was more willing to knowingly print a flawed document than to incorporate the changes someone else more familiar with the material had worked out. That is, has been, and will be the continuing standard for Shadowrun while he is SR line developer. Despite his laudable claims to produce higher quality products for Shadowrun, the books published under his direction - Corporate Guide, Sixth World Almanac, and now War! - have been some of the sloppiest and error-laden productions ever released for Shadowrun to date. I can say this with some authority, because I can reach down any SR book from the last twenty years and compare it directly, and I have.

Believe it or not, I'm not here to villify or insult Jason. The position of SR line developer opens a person up to a great deal of honest criticism. The quality of the line reflects directly on the line developer, the quality of the products is a direct measurement of their skills and standards. Jason has claimed he wants to produce the best Shadowrun books he can, for as long as they will let him, and he is under pressure to perform from the fans, from the freelancers, and last but not least his own bosses, Randall Bills and Loren Coleman, who want to see product out the door.

The long and the short of it is, however, that people will buy War! Nothing I, or Frank Trollman, or Critias, or anyone else on the internet says or does will do much to affect PDF sales. I doubt anything we say will affect hardcopy sales, when and if they occur, at all. Because as poorly as the book is edited, as bad as the plotline is, as crap as the actual writing and art and mechanics may be - and those last four are qualitative assessments - people are going to buy War!. It has new guns, toys, spells, adept powers, vehicles, missiles, Thor shots. Overpowered? All the better. Shadowrun as a brand is still strong enough that people will buy it just because it is an official release, just because it has more and better gear than their books at home. People want good Shadowrun products, but in the absence of that they'll take whatever they can get.

I don't say that to insult everyone that likes War!, who actually enjoys the Bogotá writeup or thinks the bit with the carnivorous trees is inspired and works perfectly in the metaplot. Fuck anyone that tells you what you can or cannot enjoy. Even War!'s most dark and dreary detractors admit there are gems in the rough in this book, and I know anyone that enjoys RPGs for any length of time has read and sometimes used a book considered "crap" or "ridiculous" by the self-appointed elites and know-it-alls of the 'net. You can have my Dragon Magic signed by Brom when you pry it out of my cold, dead hands.

By the same token, that does not mean you need to defend War! or its contents. This advice I will extend especially to War!'s writers, though I doubt most of them need it or would heed it coming from me. People will make of War! what they will. The last thing this book needs is for someone to come in and act as an apologist for its faults, or try to brush away many of the very real errors made in the book. One thing every writer has to learn at some point is that a work has to stand, or fall, on its own merits and flaws. If you have to try and explain or cover your ass, then you've failed to communicate something essential to the audience. That happens. Those besides the authors of the book, keep in mind that people who don't like the book are not attacking you just because you happen to like it. Don't take criticism of the book to be criticism of yourself, and don't start flaming people or arguing with them about it. It is as unlikely they will change your opinion as it is you will change theirs.

Finally (thanks for reading this far! Home stretch!), if anyone is still considering buying this book: read everything, decide whether or not the book sounds like something you want, and then make your decision. I'll be honest: the book has problems. I don't like it, I don't like where Shadowrun is going, and I'm not going to follow it there - because War! is a taste of the products that are to come. If you buy War!, than like it or not you're endorsing its vision of Shadowrun, of what SR is going to be. If you're cool with that, it's your money and your game. Either way, good night, and Ghost bless.

Kontact

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« Reply #113 on: <12-18-10/2158:58> »
If I have any complaint about the Auschwitz material in WAR! it's that it's so unnecessary.  WWII?  Really?  125 years is a long time, Jack.  Ignoring all the genocides which have happened since then in real life, the 6th world is full of shit like that without the need to dip into the old cliche.  How many times have death camps come up in the setting?  Natives were put in concentration camps.  Metas were put in concentration camps.  Institutional genocide is a reoccurring part of the 6th world.  Draw from that and leave the dead Jews be.

On a similar note, if you want to talk about war in Shadowrun, there are so many conflicts, unique to the setting, to draw from.  The 2040s are more interesting to me than the 1940s.  That's why I play this game.  Use the setting.  Fill it out a little, hey?  Every chance to put something in print is a chance to turn a light on somewhere in this world.  Maybe holocaust shit is like the "Take the A Train" of atrocity (a standard that everyone who wants to gig needs to know how to cover,) but I... fuggit, no.  I stick by my earlier statement.  Played out.  Leave it be.
« Last Edit: <12-18-10/2224:41> by Kontact »

John Schmidt

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« Reply #114 on: <12-18-10/2226:42> »
@ Kontact
The way I look at it as a writer, sometimes we try things and they work and are roundly accepted, other times...not so much. I don't believe that there is any author who is able to please everybody, it does take a fair amount of testicular fortitude to put yourself out there though.

@ Ancient History
When I hear things like "I am not here to -fill in the blank-" you can normally bet your bottom dollar that is exactly what you are here for. Combined with Frank Trollman's posting here I am pretty certain you are here for one reason. KNOCK IT OFF!
It's not the one with your name on it; it's the one addressed "to whom it may concern" you've got to think about.

TranqFrollman

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« Reply #115 on: <12-18-10/2331:52> »
@ Ancient History
When I hear things like "I am not here to -fill in the blank-" you can normally bet your bottom dollar that is exactly what you are here for. Combined with Frank Trollman's posting here I am pretty certain you are here for one reason. KNOCK IT OFF!
For whatever that may count: I'm not Frank. Or Stahlseele, for that matter.

John Schmidt

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« Reply #116 on: <12-18-10/2353:23> »
It doesn't really matter actually...the intent is the same.

Look, feel free to discuss War! in a civil manner without personal attacks and don't post the same link in multiple threads as far as I am concerned you are golden.
It's not the one with your name on it; it's the one addressed "to whom it may concern" you've got to think about.

Kontact

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« Reply #117 on: <12-19-10/0005:51> »
Tranq Frollman is far more sedate than his namesake...

Mäx

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« Reply #118 on: <12-19-10/0457:07> »
@Mäx: SoE is an in-character account. Characters can believe in ghosts, consider the Aesir as the only true gods and believe the Azzies' spin as much as they want. Proclaiming "here be ghosts, the Norse tradition got it right and Aztech actually are nice fellows" out of character is something different altogether. ;)
Oh, and once again you conveniently disregarded the first line of my post quoting the explanation of what exactly Ghosts are in SR.

The fact is that ghosts exist in SR and have existed for a long time before WAR was written and it's also pretty much a fact that ghosts in SR aren't actually spirits of the dead.
You seem to be selectively ignoring a lot of prior setting material just so you have more think to whine about in regard to that piece of WAR.
"An it harm none, do what you will"

Kot

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« Reply #119 on: <12-19-10/0625:56> »
Okay, i can get both sides points. So i'll just stay back and wait till i can get War! and find out for myself if it's worse, better, or on the same level as the other books.
Mariusz "Kot" Butrykowski
"Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons for you are crunchy and good with ketchup."