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A. Nonymous

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bigity

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« Reply #345 on: <10-07-11/0816:02> »
Yes he lives as a cyberzombie on the astral horizon.

I prefer to say he's just dead.  Besides, SR4 moved away from all that stuff it seems anyway.

The Wyrm Ouroboros

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« Reply #346 on: <10-07-11/0849:22> »
Look...bigD was nice and all, and you compare him to other dragons like he was something superrior and that his behavior gives him some kind of edge.

Well

He is dead now, while others are still alive.

So maybe his strategy wasn`t the best one to follow...

What a snarky commentary.

The Big D was -- and I do say was -- superior, and his behavior DID give him all kinds of edge.  He's dead because he chose to be, his strategy is still making people and dragons dance to his tune and head in the direction he's chosen.  Every run you take on has been influenced in some manner by Dunkelzahn.  Oh, he's not the Johnson, but if you give me a situation in SR4, especially any situation found in CGL source material, I'll lay 20:1 odds in favor of being able to find Dunkelzahn as influencing it in some manner despite having been dead for well over a decade.


Setting aside the whole cyberzombie/ghost inhabitant thing*, Dunkelzahn was and remains the single most influential impetus in the Shadowrun world.  Does that make who he was special?  Damn straight.  Understand the world's history, and you'll be better able to understand why your Johnson wants you to do what he does.




"Never think you've won until the dragon is dead AND forgotten."  -- Paraphrase from the Liaden novels.





* -- Y'know, sometimes I wonder if some of the novelists actually understood anything they were writing about ...
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bigity

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« Reply #347 on: <10-07-11/0941:39> »
I think I understand SR's history.  I just choose to ignore the stuff from the novels (especially that trilogy).  They aren't considered canon as far as I know anyway.

So, the Big D died, which may have been part of some plan (even a plan to delay the Horrors), and it sure stirred up the other greats or other events.

The silliness of the inhabiting a cyberzombie on the edge of the astral isn't necessary for the above, so I figure I'm ok.  It may make me in the minority opinion, but that's ok.

Sichr

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« Reply #348 on: <10-07-11/0956:17> »
Ive heard a few things, here and there, about the history of SR/ED universe.

Well, if Dunkie was that good, the situation that kills him never happened. So there are other powers beyond and thinking that everyone on this world dances to Dunkies tunes if naive optimism. Sure, there are things he is able to influence even now, well, his Heir like you call him even didnt succeed to become loremaster and Draco foundation is equal amongst Atlantean foundation and some AAAs.
I understand that Dunkie was quite liked Shadowrun universe being, well he wasnt GOD inc. Just another sneaky lizzard trying to be the one whos pulling the strings, manipulating everything and everyone for some unrecognizable selfish goals, pretending to have soft spot for metahumanity. He has such spot, yes...right in his stomach, if you ask me...

He is dead now, while others are still alive.
Dead, but not gone...

Seems to be the rule for primes and powers :)

Longshot23

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« Reply #349 on: <10-07-11/1121:12> »
I feel like starting the Dunkelzahn Memorial Liberation Front . . .  :P


Patrick Goodman

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« Reply #350 on: <10-07-11/1142:07> »
I think I understand SR's history.  I just choose to ignore the stuff from the novels (especially that trilogy).  They aren't considered canon as far as I know anyway.
Oh, but they are. The big event novels especially. At least, that's the brief I was given when I started playing in this sandbox. That might have changed, but I don't think so.

This isn't Star Trek, where you can ignore the novels and anything not onscreen is considered non-canon...much as we might like it to be at times.
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FastJack

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« Reply #351 on: <10-07-11/1207:10> »
I think I understand SR's history.  I just choose to ignore the stuff from the novels (especially that trilogy).  They aren't considered canon as far as I know anyway.
Oh, but they are. The big event novels especially. At least, that's the brief I was given when I started playing in this sandbox. That might have changed, but I don't think so.

This isn't Star Trek, where you can ignore the novels and anything not onscreen is considered non-canon...much as we might like it to be at times.
You're speaking of the Shatnerverse? ;D

bigity

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« Reply #352 on: <10-07-11/1214:45> »
I think I understand SR's history.  I just choose to ignore the stuff from the novels (especially that trilogy).  They aren't considered canon as far as I know anyway.
Oh, but they are. The big event novels especially. At least, that's the brief I was given when I started playing in this sandbox. That might have changed, but I don't think so.

This isn't Star Trek, where you can ignore the novels and anything not onscreen is considered non-canon...much as we might like it to be at times.


Ok so how do shapeshifters work then?  The way Stackpole wrote or the way the rules say?

Where are the rules about spirits of light?

Where are the rules about having all your cyber purged out and restoring your ability to use magic again?


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« Reply #353 on: <10-07-11/1223:44> »
This isn't Star Trek, where you can ignore the novels and anything not onscreen is considered non-canon...much as we might like it to be at times.
You're speaking of the Shatnerverse? ;D
Actually, as far as CBS/Paramount is concerned, none of the novels are canon. If it didn't happen on-screen, it didn't happen.

That said, yeah, the Shatnerverse is a particularly good example of why I'm glad this is....
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Patrick Goodman

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« Reply #354 on: <10-07-11/1235:41> »
I think I understand SR's history.  I just choose to ignore the stuff from the novels (especially that trilogy).  They aren't considered canon as far as I know anyway.
Oh, but they are. The big event novels especially. At least, that's the brief I was given when I started playing in this sandbox. That might have changed, but I don't think so.

This isn't Star Trek, where you can ignore the novels and anything not onscreen is considered non-canon...much as we might like it to be at times.
Would you care for some cheese with your whine before I continue?
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Ok so how do shapeshifters work then?  The way Stackpole wrote or the way the rules say?

Where are the rules about spirits of light?

Where are the rules about having all your cyber purged out and restoring your ability to use magic again?
In order, then:
On the issue of shapers: Yes.
Haven't gotten around to spirits of light, but we've had spirits of radiation so it's not a big leap.
Cyber purging: Couldn't care less.

A lot of the shit you mention, especially the early shit by Stackpole et al, didn't have a mandate to work within the rules because (and this is a presumption on my part) they understood that rules weren't the end-all be-all of exstence in the game world. They weren't so anal as people seem to want them to be. The wisdom of this decision is still open to debate.

You stated that the novels weren't canon; I stated otherwise, and gave you my mandate when I started writing for Mike Mulvihill back in the day in support of my statement. And I stand by it. To this day, that mandate has not been rescinded to my knowledge. When I write something, be it for a short story, a novella, a sourcebook, whatever, I have to accept that the events of the existing fiction actually happened. The new mandate is that my stuff has to function under the rules that were in effect when I wrote it. My stuff for SR3 had to work under SR3 rules. My current stuff has to work under SR4A rules.

I don't have to justify, in rules, things which happened 20 years ago.

You don't like it? That's fine. But to stick your head in the sand and say, "This isn't real," is asinine at best. You don't have to like the events in the novels, but if you're playing in the canon SR universe, you've got to just suck it up and accept that they happened and move on.

And, if my sig isn't enough of a disclaimer, let me state here again for the record: I speak for myself and myself alone here. I do not represent CGL or anybody working with/for them in these statements.
« Last Edit: <10-07-11/1803:00> by Patrick Goodman »
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CanRay

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« Reply #355 on: <10-07-11/1238:50> »
Anyhow, Wolf wasn't a shapechanger or a werewolf.  He was "Blessed by the Wolf Spirit".  ;D
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bigity

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« Reply #356 on: <10-07-11/1346:29> »
I think I understand SR's history.  I just choose to ignore the stuff from the novels (especially that trilogy).  They aren't considered canon as far as I know anyway.
Oh, but they are. The big event novels especially. At least, that's the brief I was given when I started playing in this sandbox. That might have changed, but I don't think so.

This isn't Star Trek, where you can ignore the novels and anything not onscreen is considered non-canon...much as we might like it to be at times.
Would you care for some cheese with your whine before I continue?
Quote
Ok so how do shapeshifters work then?  The way Stackpole wrote or the way the rules say?

Where are the rules about spirits of light?

Where are the rules about having all your cyber purged out and restoring your ability to use magic again?
In order, then:
On the issue of shapers: Yes.
Haven't gotten around to spirits of light, but we've had spirits of radiation so it's not a big leap.
Cyber purging: Couldn't care less.

A lot of the shit you mention, especially the early shit by Stackpole et al, didn't have a mandate to work within the rules because (and this is a presumption on my part) they understood that rules weren't the end-all be-all of exstence in the game world. They weren't so anal as people seem to want them to be. The wisdom of this decision is still open to debate.

You stated that the novels weren't canon; I stated otherwise, and gave you my mandate when I started writing for Mike Mulvihill back in the day in support of my statement. And I stand by it. To this day, that mandate has not been rescinded to my knowledge. When I write something, be it for a short story, a novella, a sourcebook, whatever, I have to accept that the events of the existing fiction actually happened. The new mandate is that my stuff has to function under teh rules that were in effect when I wrote it. My stuff for SR3 had to work under SR3 rules. My current stuff has to work under SR4A rules.

I don't have tu justify, in rules, things which happened 20 years ago.

You don't like it? That's fine. But to stick your head in the sand and say, "This isn't real," is asinine at best. You don't have to like the events in the novels, but if you're playing in the canon SR universe, you've got to just suck it up and accept that they happened and move on.

And, if my sig isn't enough of a disclaimer, let me state here again for the record: I speak for myself and myself alone here. I do not represent CGL or anybody working with/for them in these statements.

So what is your defense on cities suddenly becoming coast cities with ports and other similiar happenings?  Does Dirk have a cyberarm or doesn't he? Just because it's a book (especially a novel), doesn't mean it's not something to fudge around or figure out a better explanation.

Again, if the whole ED/Horrors thing hadn't been mostly/apparently/somewhat dropped/toned down for SR4, I might care that previous novels had certain events occur regarding immortal elves and dragons.  As it is, I can acknowledge Dunk is dead, deal with the fallout from that, and ignore the specific circumstances that tied two different product lines together.

I'm not attacking authors here, but regarding them and editors as infallible is as asinine as it gets.


Sichr

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« Reply #357 on: <10-07-11/1427:36> »
that part about the war and lost continuity is painfully true, well, lets get back to the topic. Shall we?

ObviouslyLeonardo is off the list, so who else comming throught your minds? You think that guy is a shadow figure? Or is it somone with power under inkognito? AOr possible some matrix being?

Patrick Goodman

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« Reply #358 on: <10-07-11/1451:42> »
So what is your defense on cities suddenly becoming coast cities with ports and other similiar happenings?
Don't have one. Don't need one. I didn't write that; the author of that piece can defend himself if he so chooses. I'd name names, but I don't know who wrote that chunk, so I'm gonna stay mute on specifics for the time being.

That said, it was bad research, from the looks of things, and should have been caught, but I wasn't there so I don't know what went down. If I ever write anything down in Central or South America, I'll have to deal with it, but until then, it's not actually an issue with me.
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Does Dirk have a cyberarm or doesn't he?
Another one of those where I personally don't care one way or another. If I should ever do anything regarding Mr. Montgomery in future (a vanishingly remote possibility, by the way), I'll read everything he appears in and start asking a lot of people a lot of questions, and settle the issue then.

I'm not responsible for the research, good or bad, of any other writers; I do not have an encyclopedic knowledge of the game world anymore, as it's way too big and I have an outside life, and even if I did, their research is their problem. If I have the opportunity to proof something, I'll point out factual errors as I catch them, but the initial research is the author's responsibility.
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Just because it's a book (especially a novel), doesn't mean it's not something to fudge around or figure out a better explanation.
Never said the books were sacred, or in many cases particularly well-written. I happen to think that a vast majority of game-related tie-in novels are utter crap, and those for Shadowrun are no exception. The writing on some of them is excruciatingly bad, and some of the events in them need some major massaging, at the very least, to make them make sense.

That doesn't change for an instant the fact that, in the baseline Shadowrun universe, those events in fact happened. Warts, Mary Sues, wretched prose, and all. Do we need to fudge around things? Oh, hell yeah. There's a ridiculous amount of stuff I fudged over when I updated Martin de Vries, for instance, and I'd do it again in a heartbeat. Do some things need a better explanation? Again, yep. And I never said otherwise.
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Again, if the whole ED/Horrors thing hadn't been mostly/apparently/somewhat dropped/toned down for SR4, I might care that previous novels had certain events occur regarding immortal elves and dragons.  As it is, I can acknowledge Dunk is dead, deal with the fallout from that, and ignore the specific circumstances that tied two different product lines together.
Toned down? Yeah, for a variety of reasons, most of them bad design decisions on the part of some people who shall remain nameless (this being a personal opinion, not a statement of absolute fact; just wanna make sure that's out there).

But they were never severed, and there was never a carved-in-stone guarantee that they wouldn't be revisited. In fact, given the nature of the SR world/universe, not revisiting them would be...well, difficult. (That's not what I wanted to say, but I was asked privately to tone down some of my terminology and I'll respect that.)

And since it's long been established game-world canon, even if you want to ignore it, it doesn't mean for so much as a heartbeat that it didn't happen. Again, you don't like it, fine, but don't stick your head in the sand and insist that I have to join you.
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I'm not attacking authors here, but regarding them and editors as infallible is as asinine as it gets.
Now you're making things up and saying I said them. I never said that we were infallible; I never even implied it. Hell, I can point to a number of failures I've committed in recent history, just in the stuff I've written and proofed.

What I did say, and what you're choosing not to deal with, is that while some of the novels suck, they're still canon parts of the game world and have to be dealt with. You choose to deal with them by shouting "La la la la la" a great deal, from what I'm seeing. I choose to deal with them by choosing my battles and not dealing with the stuff that irritates me, which I suppose is about the same thing.

The difference appears to be that you just decide they didn't happen. I don't have the option of doing that, doing what I'm doing. I have to deal with the game world as it is, not how I wish it was.
« Last Edit: <10-07-11/1809:45> by Patrick Goodman »
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The Wyrm Ouroboros

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« Reply #359 on: <10-07-11/1459:06> »
So what is your defense on cities suddenly becoming coast cities with ports and other similiar happenings? 

...

I'm not attacking authors here, but regarding them and editors as infallible is as asinine as it gets.

... which city becoming a coast city with a port, etc.?

We aren't saying that past authors and their editors are infallable; poor research is poor research.  What we're saying is that the events that have happened in the novels -- Twist and his rise and fall in magic, the events and reasons for Dunkelzahn's death, all of the other stuff, are canonical to the Shadowrun World.  Avoid them in your posts, ignore them in your own game, but when you're here and talking about the SR universe, they're part of the backstory and you can't just say they didn't happen.


As much as I detest the Dragon Heart trilogy, its writing, its overblown plot, all the crap that IMO it is, when it comes to working inside the official SR universe, I have to acknowledge that it happened as written.  I do, and then I move on.  I don't stick my fingers in my ears and say 'no no no'...
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