Shadowrun

Catalyst Game Labs => Catalyst's Shadowrun Products => Topic started by: Ragnarok on <02-09-14/1641:20>

Title: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Ragnarok on <02-09-14/1641:20>
When will Data Trails be released?
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: firebug on <02-09-14/1654:45>
There's no release date for any of the supplements yet.  Anything you may see on Amazon.com, by the way, is completely irrelevant (as they tend to just make up dates for things).
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Ryo on <02-09-14/1659:44>
Hopefully Data Trails is the plan for after Run and Gun. Considering they completely rebuilt the Matrix from the ground up, they should get the matrix book out ASAP so GMs actually know how to run it.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Michael Chandra on <02-09-14/1701:11>
I'd rather have Rigger V out, so we are done with all the modding stuff.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Ryo on <02-09-14/1704:24>
I'd rather have Rigger V out, so we are done with all the modding stuff.

What, Run and Gun won't have Vehicle and drone mods?

Even if it doesn't, I can reach back into 4th edition's Arsenal to house rule some mods up, like I've already been doing. But the 4th edition matrix rules are completely useless to me. I'm flying blind without Data Trails.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Ragnarok on <02-09-14/1715:40>
With the revamping of the Matrix, Data Trails is a must for Technomancers (especially TMs) and Deckers.  I just would like to know when it is slated to be released...  BTW, I don't look at Amazon for SR releases.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Namikaze on <02-09-14/1725:34>
What, Run and Gun won't have Vehicle and drone mods?

As I have heard, the powers that be decided to take the drones and vehicles (and associated mods) out of Run & Gun and put them into Rigger V.  This is probably a good thing, since now the drones, vehicles, and associated mods will get a separate book, which usually means they get more love.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Ryo on <02-09-14/1733:52>
What, Run and Gun won't have Vehicle and drone mods?

As I have heard, the powers that be decided to take the drones and vehicles (and associated mods) out of Run & Gun and put them into Rigger V.  This is probably a good thing, since now the drones, vehicles, and associated mods will get a separate book, which usually means they get more love.

Guess I'm waiting another half a year or more before I get to see the vehicle mods then.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: CanRay on <02-09-14/1735:43>
I'd rather have Rigger V out, so we are done with all the modding stuff.
You want the Sixth Edition of Shadowrun to come out so quickly?  ;D
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Michael Chandra on <02-09-14/1755:33>
I'd rather have Rigger V out, so we are done with all the modding stuff.
You want the Sixth Edition of Shadowrun to come out so quickly?  ;D
Well... Yes. :)

Anyway: "Run and Gun is a combat core rulebook for Shadowrun, Fifth Edition, containing more weapons, more armor, more modifications, and more game options such as martial arts and unit tactics. Break the book open and prepare to raise your game."

And if we want Riggers to be playable to more extent than "drone gets hit and dies", we pretty much need Rigger V, since we can convert neither the drones nor most modifications (or modification rules for that matter, Threshold 30 Extended Limited Tests? Ouch) without a LOT of guesswork. Meanwhile, I don't believe Data Trails to be an essential ingredient to playing Deckers unless people really want to go deep into the details. Technomancers, of course, can use it quite a lot.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Prime Mover on <02-09-14/1843:43>
Street Grimore, Data Trails, Run & Gun  all seem to be named as core books.  Do we have names for augment or rigger book yet?
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: firebug on <02-09-14/1914:44>
Street Grimoire is the magic book?  I was hoping it'd be this "Aetherology" they mentioned in Gun Heaven 3.  If that's not the case, are they going to separate information on the metaplanes to a whole other book?
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Prime Mover on <02-09-14/2118:02>
Aetherology is a PDF project from 4th edition that never made it out.  Can guess its being updated for 5th.  Highlighting Metaplanes.  Actually looking forward to it, been awhile since there really touched on this much.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Namikaze on <02-10-14/0038:17>
Aetherology is a PDF project from 4th edition that never made it out.  Can guess its being updated for 5th.  Highlighting Metaplanes.  Actually looking forward to it, been awhile since there really touched on this much.

First I've heard of that.  If this is going to happen, then I'm excited about it more than I was before.  I feel like 5th edition magic is pretty solid and doesn't need a lot of extra work.  I like the little supplements on specific topics, so color me impressed.  :)
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Ragnarok on <03-02-14/1822:11>
How compatible is Unwired with SR5?
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: RHat on <03-02-14/1841:16>
How compatible is Unwired with SR5?

Basically not.  The Matrix is completely different.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: firebug on <03-02-14/1849:28>
How compatible is Unwired with SR5?

It's actually one of the most obsolete books...  Since the matrix, in-universe, was overhauled, the majority of what's in that book is irrelevant. 

Anything referencing nodes, signal ranges, programs...  The entire Matrix Topology section is no longer accurate. 

System Security has some basic ideas that could be translated (things that would reduce Signal could now just cause Noise) but anything referencing IC and matrix attributes will be inaccurate.

The Hacker's Handbook chapter may introduce some concepts that still work (such as Spoofing lifestyles), but any of the mechanical stuff like backdoors, hacked accounts, and all that would need to be re-made entirely for 5th edition because of the introduction of marks as the current form of matrix recognition--  Anything about actual accounts would have to be ad-hoc until Data Trails says how it really works.

Software section is almost entirely obsolete, since matrix actions and programs have been completely revamped.  The rule for getting pirates software (1/10th the price, but it degrades over time) could still be applied to skillsoft without changing much.  The rules about a TacNet need to be reworked a little bit before they'd work in 5th as well, since PANs work differently.

The Technomancers section's crunch is mostly useless, but the fluff is relevant, if not currently accurate--  I'm wondering if they will address whether changing how TM's function was a retcon, or if they seriously all evolved with the new matrix; a possible and intriguing concept.  Since the TMs are so closely tied to the matrix, and it's established that it did, in-universe, get a big change, I really want this answered.  There's no way such a thing just happened without affecting them much.  Resonance realms likely won't be too different in 5th edition, so the fluff about them is still usable.  Paragons probably didn't just disappear (as that would have been a traumatic event) so transitioning them would be totally within reason.

Sprites; same as TM.  Fluff's accurate but could have changed, crunch is outdated entirely.

Matrix Phenomena is mostly for it's fluff, as it's legends and mysterious shit on the matrix.  The hard rules on AI's would have changed of course.

Simsense and Skillware?  Surprisingly still accurate, I feel.

And of course the Matrix Gear section is literally obsolete.  All of it could still be found, but anything that deals with the matrix (like the commlink modifications and software) would likely not work unless "updated" properly, which mechanically means it'd have to be remade for 5th.  And of course, nanotech is out of the question now.

Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Ragnarok on <03-02-14/2057:57>
Thank you RHat for the quick answer, and for Firebug for the indepth answer.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: DeathStrobe on <03-02-14/2228:55>
I too want the next source book to be Data Trails, but I recall hearing the next book is going to be Street Grimoire. Which is disappointing, but seeing how Magic shouldn't need too much changes in crunch or fluff, I'm hoping that the book will be rather "quick" to produce. But at the least, expanded rules on Alchemy might be nice.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: tasti man LH on <03-03-14/0001:53>
Street Grimoire is the magic book?  I was hoping it'd be this "Aetherology" they mentioned in Gun Heaven 3.  If that's not the case, are they going to separate information on the metaplanes to a whole other book?

Correct. Street Grimoire was first name-dropped in the Coyotes e-pub (seriously, it feels like I'm the only one that even bothered to pick that one up).
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Namikaze on <03-03-14/0110:04>
I'm not one for much rumor-mongering, but I'd like to pass along a rumor that I hope is true.  The rumor is that Aetherology is a smaller book, like Coyotes and Assassin's Primer that focuses on the metaplanes and life as a mage.  I think this would be a nifty topic to cover in-depth, without all the theory crafting and game mechanics of a proper supplement.  Leave all that to Street Grimoire.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Sendaz on <03-04-14/1814:13>
I'm not one for much rumor-mongering, but I'd like to pass along a rumor that I hope is true.  The rumor is that Aetherology is a smaller book, like Coyotes and Assassin's Primer that focuses on the metaplanes and life as a mage. 
oh yes please...
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Zweiblumen on <07-18-14/1617:08>
Wondering if there's been any more info about Data Trails coming out?  Really looking forward to this one.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: tasti man LH on <07-18-14/1648:45>
Nope. Still nothing. Actually, it seems like Run Faster is out next. Still no ETA on Data Trails, "Rigger 5", or "Augmentation 5th"
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Ragnarok on <08-01-14/0510:08>
So, what is next, and it's release dates?
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: AJCarrington on <08-01-14/0737:20>
Other than Crossfire (Aug 27), I don't think we have any more release dates in hand. Next product releases we know of are the two box sets and the novel, though no dates. Next book release (my guess) is Running Faster, though no idea as to time frame.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Triskavanski on <08-01-14/1300:35>
From my estimate, I think Run Faster is either due to release in august or September.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: PeterSmith on <08-01-14/1340:57>
From my estimate, I think Run Faster is either due to release in august or September.

Your estimates are off.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: AJCarrington on <08-01-14/1506:19>
Your estimates are off.

Now, that's just plain unsporting...telling a guy he's wrong, but no inkling how short/long the estimate might be. ;)
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: PeterSmith on <08-01-14/1607:55>
Now, that's just plain unsporting...telling a guy he's wrong, but no inkling how short/long the estimate might be.

Oh, that's easy: I don't have the info of how far out the book release is. What I do know is what stage the book is in. August is right out given it's GenCon this month, and having a September release of the PDF would be a miracle.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Zar on <10-03-14/0856:14>
The Rigger book won't be out until the end of 2015 or even into 2016.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: tasti man LH on <10-04-14/1521:47>
The Rigger book won't be out until the end of 2015 or even into 2016.

Where's this coming from?
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Namikaze on <10-04-14/1710:04>
I think it's just hyperbole.  There's no way that anyone would know the release date for the next Rigger book, let along a year or two in advance.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Dr. Meatgrinder on <10-04-14/1928:36>
Jason Hardy talked briefly about it on last week's episode of the Arcology Podcast (http://arcologypodcast.com/episode-044-the-shadowrun-vibe/).
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: AJCarrington on <10-05-14/1614:12>
Well, that interesting...will need to catch up on my listening. Do we know if the Rigger book and Data Trails are going to be separate books? My assumption is yes, but don't recall seeing anything re a dedicated Rigger book.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Michael Chandra on <10-05-14/1720:54>
There were notes in the past about splitting Arsenal into R&G and RiggerV, weren't there?
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: AJCarrington on <10-05-14/1849:17>
Must have missed those...admit that I do like the concept. Fair to guess that next core rule books would be Data Trails and "Augmentation", after Run Faster? If so, 12+ months for RiggerV seems about right.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Sendaz on <10-05-14/1916:43>
If so, 12+ months for RiggerV seems about right.
Sooo... 13+ months for 6th Ed? :P
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Agonar on <10-07-14/1006:01>
If so, 12+ months for RiggerV seems about right.
Sooo... 13+ months for 6th Ed? :P
That was part of the reply when he was asked "when do we get a rigger book"...  the answer was "You know, right before the edition ends."

The episode in question is 44, and the question comes at about 35:30 mark in the show.  Sounds like the "late 2015 or early 2016" is just an estimate at this time.  Who knows, it might be sooner.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: AJCarrington on <10-07-14/1113:25>
The episode in question is 44, and the question comes at about 35:30 mark in the show.  Sounds like the "late 2015 or early 2016" is just an estimate at this time.  Who knows, it might be sooner.
Thanks for the time stamps.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Sendaz on <10-07-14/1619:09>

That was part of the reply when he was asked "when do we get a rigger book"...  the answer was "You know, right before the edition ends."

The episode in question is 44, and the question comes at about 35:30 mark in the show.  Sounds like the "late 2015 or early 2016" is just an estimate at this time.  Who knows, it might be sooner.
Well at least he went on to say Rigger book would come out a few years before 6th to allow Rigger Goodness.  Let's hope :)
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Mevarion on <10-08-14/0926:27>
Dear tiny little god who may or may not voice little whispers in Catalyst ears... please please please, gimme Data Trails, afore I'm ICed......
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Fenrir on <10-16-14/2111:27>
May I make a suggestion?

Since Data Trails might not be coming out sooner than you want it to be, why not make your own rules for deckers (I.e make our own corebook for deckers)? Not only you are going to be satisfied but also you can iron out some of the issues you found in the matrix section of 5th ed.

Plus you have plenty of help to get and a large audience to look for feedback.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Namikaze on <10-17-14/0237:15>
I created some rules for Technomancers in 5th edition that are based VERY heavily off the rules in Unwired for 4th edition.  Not sure if that's helpful to you, Mevarion, but they're in the GM Toolbox, I believe.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Fenrir on <10-17-14/0839:24>
Thanks Omae, you really helped out some of those who want to be technomancers in 5th ed.

Now, do you know a homebrew sourcebook that applies to deckers and the matrix for 5th ed? If so what is it? Where can we find it?

Part of this reason is that the chummer wants a sourcebook that can help players make a more refined decker character for 5th ed.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Namikaze on <10-17-14/1408:34>
I'm working (very slowly) on creating a custom book for Chummer that includes the adapted Technomancer changes that I made.  To be honest though, it's taking forever due to tons of RL stuff in the way.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Mevarion on <10-17-14/1546:34>
Thanks both Namikaze and Fenrir.  I have already began looking into some of the basis of matrix rules for 4th and 5th for TM and started compiling them. (hopefully that sprite will finish up soon.. :-\) The 4th ed rules are somewhat comprehensive but getting them to mesh with 5th ed. is a little bit more involved than I thought. But no good deed goes unpunished! House rules mixed with the official stuff will have to do till Data Trails. I took a look at the stuff you had up Namikaze, definitely will be using some of it. Many Thanks!
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Fenrir on <10-17-14/2249:11>
Bit of advice. Look upon the current source material available for deckers and see what it has and what lacks or misunderstands. That way you may know what your home brew should be about.

Good luck omae
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Herr Brackhaus on <01-19-15/1402:51>
Data Trails is being worked on; wohoo!
https://www.facebook.com/shadowruntabletopgame/posts/10153008515679591
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Mevarion on <02-02-15/1422:21>
Woot Woot!
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Ursus Maior on <02-08-15/1858:30>
Cannot wait... Must feed nerd-frenzy...
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Sendaz on <02-09-15/0409:01>
I too am looking forward to it.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Csjarrat on <03-02-15/1135:37>
anyone seen an update on this? seems to be very quiet..
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Backgammon on <03-02-15/1307:43>
We're working on it
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Csjarrat on <03-02-15/1324:00>
Awesome, thanks for the update
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: firebug on <03-03-15/1702:45>
We're working on it

Good luck, and may you not get rushed by publishers or the fanbase!
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: dragrubis on <03-06-15/1030:36>
We have some news on it?
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Namikaze on <03-06-15/1138:45>
We have some news on it?

Yes.  From 4 days ago:

We're working on it
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Sendaz on <03-06-15/1147:00>
They say there are sneak peeks available on a supersecret Catalyst Host, but you would have to find it first and hack your way in to see the goods. :P
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: 8-bit on <03-06-15/1149:52>
They say there are sneak peeks available on a supersecret Catalyst Host, but you would have to find it first and hack your way in to see the goods. :P

And if you do, you better make it snappy. Otherwise, the IC they'll send at you won't just fry your deck. And GOD won't be around to save you.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Imveros on <03-06-15/2125:09>
They say there are sneak peeks available on a supersecret Catalyst Host, but you would have to find it first and hack your way in to see the goods. :P

Hmmm what do you think catalyst's matrix iconography looks like? I'm guessing dinosaurs, lots of dinosaurs...
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: CanRay on <03-07-15/0105:02>
I've suggested updates to the dinos, but it was shot down.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Herr Brackhaus on <03-16-15/1008:38>
Art from Data Trails:
http://catalystgamelabs.tumblr.com/post/113781561541/shadowrun-data-trails-art
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Csjarrat on <03-16-15/1220:18>
cool. looks like stuff is progressing nicely.
any announcements as to what made it into the publication?
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Namikaze on <03-16-15/1306:12>
cool. looks like stuff is progressing nicely.
any announcements as to what made it into the publication?

Matrix stuff.  :P
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Patrick Goodman on <03-16-15/1342:30>
cool. looks like stuff is progressing nicely.
any announcements as to what made it into the publication?

Matrix stuff.  :P
More specifically, cool Matrix stuff. ;D
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Csjarrat on <03-16-15/1429:58>
lol. worth a try right?
Anything outside "cool matrix stuff", as in, anything my beloved riggers can make use of? ie, drones, autosofts, pilot upgrades etc?
an idea on which quarter you're loosely aiming for?
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: firebug on <03-16-15/1437:09>
lol. worth a try right?
Anything outside "cool matrix stuff", as in, anything my beloved riggers can make use of? ie, drones, autosofts, pilot upgrades etc?
an idea on which quarter you're loosely aiming for?

I get the impression it's going to be almost entirely a hacker book, though it'll probably have more programs (which you could run on drones) and stuff about how to control things via the matrix, perhaps.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: AJCarrington on <03-16-15/2141:02>
Spend the day driving and look what you miss ;) For those link challenged:

(http://media.tumblr.com/3f5091e75649e11cff62596426ab345e/tumblr_inline_nlb25vuKJR1s9c9hj.jpg)

Quite like this piece...love the atmosphere. ;D
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: dragrubis on <03-25-15/0247:17>
Will dronomancers come back?

Will technomancers get the meat world initiative bonus back?

And the mesh reality too?

Just because it was the concept of an old character...
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: firebug on <03-25-15/1124:56>
Will dronomancers come back?

Will technomancers get the meat world initiative bonus back?

And the mesh reality too?

Just because it was the concept of an old character...

My current character's concept was that (only I didn't care much about meatspace IPs).  I really really hope Mesh Reality returns.  It makes for the coolest riggers.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Byte on <03-25-15/1351:41>
Damn, still not out yet? :(

Ah well, can't wait to read it. I'm all over Unwired at the moment, even though the SR4 char I got is an Uneducated Face. Lmfao.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: dragrubis on <03-26-15/0316:25>
I wait for the pdf release (i'm not in us) to buy it.

I can't wait to spend nuyens on it!
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: TheDai on <03-26-15/0549:03>
Take your time with it.

Core has so much room for unnecessary interpretation. The first half of what comes out should be just clarification (like Xenon does here all day and night x) ) on how to actually use the matrix.

And then of course some new toys for Deckers and TM's. =)
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: dragrubis on <04-14-15/0142:29>
Any fresh news?
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Wakshaani on <04-14-15/0149:52>
Sorry guys, I was on hiatus for this one, so don't have a single hin of what's inside.

Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: AJCarrington on <04-14-15/0651:39>
Last week, Randall posting on FB that he had seen some laid out sections going to proofing...it's coming ;)
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: dragrubis on <04-16-15/0724:57>
Yown! Good news!

Any hint for what will be in?
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Bull on <04-17-15/1759:21>
Any hint for what will be in?

Advanced Matrix rules. :)
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: DeathStrobe on <04-17-15/2113:25>
Are we going to see any preview PDFs like was done for R&G and SR5 Core book? 'cause those were really cool...
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Ursus Maior on <04-18-15/1733:01>
That would be sweet!
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Sendaz on <04-18-15/1820:58>
Some say they were originally going to include the entire library of 'Bull The Orc Decker' games with it's release but due to an unfortunate incident involving the VP of Games division, a case of soyscotch, two bunraku meatdolls, an Emerged Goat and the Horizon Host those files have been lost for the time being, although a team of TMs have been hired to do some Resonance diving to see what can be recovered.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: shadowjester on <04-25-15/0750:17>
Alliance, the distributor, has in their Game Trade Magazine an expected release date of June 2015.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: AJCarrington on <04-25-15/1147:12>
Currently plan/intention is to have Data Trails ready (and in hand) for Origins (June 2015).
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Drakestar on <04-27-15/0138:04>
Please tell me that the June release date is for print version. I really can't wait to June for this book :P
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: AJCarrington on <04-27-15/1210:50>
I believe that is the plan. However, depending on the printer's schedule, I'm not sure if the book will be in widespread print release by then or not. In the past, copies have been flown in ahead of the main shipments to ensure product for shows. Hoping that won't be required here, but time will tell.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Drakestar on <04-27-15/1325:08>
AJCarrington do You know if we will see a digital release earlier? A month eariler maybe :D
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: AJCarrington on <04-27-15/1619:37>
I'm thinking that we won't see a digital release until June, but will double check...always happy to be wrong. ;)
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Zweiblumen on <04-28-15/1405:20>
Would love an early digital release!

Offers bribes!
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: AJCarrington on <04-28-15/1545:44>
I happily accept your donation, though it will have absolutely NO impact on the release dates...is that wrong? 8)
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Hibiki54 on <05-02-15/2008:09>
Currently plan/intention is to have Data Trails ready (and in hand) for Origins (June 2015).

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-P6vK7C6GpdI/UVJQFZ3VOOI/AAAAAAAAAMI/dxs_sepyQJs/s1600/TAKEMYNUYEN.png)
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: dragrubis on <05-05-15/1620:03>
yup and mines
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: AndrewD2 on <05-05-15/1747:03>
Can't wait for this!!! The sooner I can get this PDF in my Datajack the better.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: AJCarrington on <05-06-15/1637:56>
From Tumblr (http://catalystgamelabs.tumblr.com/post/118304282451/shadowrun-data-trails-art), some nice new art:

(http://40.media.tumblr.com/8648baac915aef44c7daaee0a2fea456/tumblr_inline_nny25oCiGe1s9c9hj_1280.jpg)

(http://40.media.tumblr.com/0e14d23aafddb9273aef4687de1813d5/tumblr_inline_nny25xSwqM1s9c9hj_500.jpg)

:)
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: cantrip on <05-07-15/0925:03>
I love the bear!  8)

Looking forward to the release - I've got a player that is a techno - and he will love it. Now, to fit a Kodiak into my matrix....
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Ragnarok on <05-08-15/2024:10>
Please tell me that there'll be Sprites that take aspects of various paranimals and regular animals, because that Kodiak Bear is badass!!!!  It'd be awesome as a kodiak bear sprite.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Zweiblumen on <05-17-15/1621:53>
Just checking to see if this is still on schedule for the first week of June?  Pretty please? :P
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: AJCarrington on <05-17-15/1639:04>
Yes, it is. I plan to post an update shortly, but Data Trails is still tracking for June.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Twisted Isles on <05-17-15/2030:05>
Has there been any word as to if the pdf and hard copy are being released simultaneously or if he pdf is coming earlier?
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Kincaid on <05-17-15/2037:45>
I imagine it will follow the same pattern as previous books--pdf first (plus probably a small print run for Origins), then a street date for the physical book down the line.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Zweiblumen on <05-18-15/0114:38>
Yes, it is. I plan to post an update shortly, but Data Trails is still tracking for June.

Thanks for the quick response!  Can't wait to throw some ¥¥ at you guys!
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: AJCarrington on <05-18-15/1844:08>
From Tumblr (http://catalystgamelabs.tumblr.com/post/119279559381/shadowrun-data-trails-art), some more art:

(http://40.media.tumblr.com/130944b01e96d66da415d9e857d25c42/tumblr_inline_nojv76GLMP1s9c9hj_500.jpg)

(http://40.media.tumblr.com/f52c4eabed20d332c4625cc483a2c53a/tumblr_inline_nojv8mZubX1s9c9hj_1280.jpg)

Looking really nice ;D
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: AndrewD2 on <05-18-15/1849:16>
Would look even nicer on Cyberdeck (aka my tablet) ;-)
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Twisted Isles on <05-18-15/1910:57>
Awesome art

Not the update we all wanted, but maybe the one we deserve...
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Mirikon on <05-18-15/2025:20>
I just hope they do something to fix TMs. Oh, and give me the rules to create AI or Free Sprite characters! I have a couple AI characters I haven't been able to recreate because of that.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Kincaid on <05-18-15/2052:45>
Do you feel TMs are broken because of a lack of rules or because current rules are unclear?
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Mirikon on <05-18-15/2122:18>
Actually, I'm talking more along the lines of complete rewrite of the Technomancer 'class'.

I think TMs got thrown in a cell with Bubba the Love Troll for this edition. They used to be the 'swiss army knives of the Matrix'. Sure, a Hacker had more more reliable abilities, and only risked pulping their brain if they went against Black IC, while TMs took damage from even a regular attack program straight to their brain. They had the strategic edge. In return, TMs had a greater degree of versatility and the ability to become more powerful than hackers for brief periods of time, though it was risky to do such things often. They had a tactical edge. In 5th, not only are Deckers retain all the advantages they had over TMs to begin with, but they also got much more versatile, with being able to change up their attributes and load programs without Submerging. And to add insult to injury, TMs were even further gimped by taking away their ability to rig without first submerging. There was a whole TM stream devoted to Rigging and using drones, after all.

Basically, 5th edition kicked TMs in the balls, repeatedly.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Kincaid on <05-18-15/2125:18>
Ah, well I can't predict a complete rewrite of techomancers, but I think I can predict some things in DT that will make deckers jealous.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: AndrewD2 on <05-19-15/1324:21>
Anything new for Technomancers will excite me. It's a concept I've loved since well before I ever played Shadowrun and now that I am playing want it to be the ideal experience.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Csjarrat on <05-19-15/1913:04>
Yeah, technomancers really need something good out of this book. They're way behind the curve at chargen under core rules due to a need for great mental stats, loads of skills and the RES choice all competing for priority slots . Sum to ten gives them more flexibility but still feel I can make a more useful character with a decker because the fade codes are punishingly high for fairly mediocre outcomes and the investment into being a good tm tends to bone you in the meat world
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Sir_Prometheus on <05-19-15/2159:01>
I think technomancers are great.  For one thing, they don't have to carry around a piece of electronics that costs as much as a house that can be easily broken or stolen.  But they really could use a lot of ....... inconsistencies and holes patched.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: LordGrizzle on <05-22-15/0341:38>
I think technomancers are great.  For one thing, they don't have to carry around a piece of electronics that costs as much as a house that can be easily broken or stolen.  But they really could use a lot of ....... inconsistencies and holes patched.

Except they do if they want to provide thngs like, I don't know, slaving their team (Because they can't do that on their own, and slaving is quite important in 5E), and also to have a versatile program choice they also need a deck, because you can't realistically submerge often enough just to get all nice programs. And there'll be more programs in Data Trails as well. So even as a Technomancer you need a bloody deck and a good commlink if you want to really be great
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Top Dog on <05-22-15/0408:25>
I think technomancers are great.  For one thing, they don't have to carry around a piece of electronics that costs as much as a house that can be easily broken or stolen.  But they really could use a lot of ....... inconsistencies and holes patched.

Except they do if they want to provide thngs like, I don't know, slaving their team (Because they can't do that on their own, and slaving is quite important in 5E), and also to have a versatile program choice they also need a deck, because you can't realistically submerge often enough just to get all nice programs. And there'll be more programs in Data Trails as well. So even as a Technomancer you need a bloody deck and a good commlink if you want to really be great
Deckers aren't that great at slaving their team either. You need ownership to slave for one. Second, decks have a relatively low device rating, so they can't actually slave all the gear the party has. Third, commlinks have competitive Firewall ratings already - decks may have slightly better ones, but only if you have both a high-end deck and prioritized Firewall.

There are some uses to slaving to the decker's PAN - you get a Sleaze rating for defense, for one (for running silent), and he can give you a slightly higher Firewall if he devotes the resources to that. But that would then only apply to some of your gear, so you'd have to keep the rest offline (otherwise, running silent won't really matter) - and then swap it back and forth all the time so you can slave it to your commlink when the decker isn't around or when you want to use all your gear.

Technomancers do have a problem with slaving - but that's slaving their own gear. Which they can still do, to a commlink, but then their items won't get their Sleaze rating (so it's harder for Technomancers to run silently), and they have to spend money on an otherwise useless commlink just for the Firewall.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: DeathStrobe on <05-22-15/1141:09>
TMs need a commlink anyway, not just for slaving but also to save data. I guess they could use an army of courier sprites to save data, but that sounds a bit impractical for all data.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: AndrewD2 on <05-22-15/1327:54>
We've just been kinda going with the fiction where a TM can transfer stuff just by touching it. (Data chips and such)
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: jackiepaper on <05-23-15/0233:21>
As one of the new freelancers that worked on Data Trails (Dylan Stangel or "The Smiling Bandit" in Shadowrun Chronicles) i can say that there will definitely be some more stuff for Technomancers in there and there are definitely rules for creating and playing AIs, (written by yours truly) but the big supplement for TMs is currently in the works. I can't really say much more than that it has been approved and Amy Veeres and I will be doing our best to give TMs their day in the sun.

Both of us agree that TMs have been shorted in 5E, though i can honestly say that it's never been something we did to reduce their place in SR. We had lots of new ideas for Matrix 3.0 that we wanted to fully flesh out in Data Trails and we felt that it would be better to give TMs their own supplement rather than try to shoehorn everything into DT.

The role of TMs has changed in the 6th world and we're looking to address that in setting as well as in the mechanics.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Csjarrat on <05-23-15/0816:03>
ok, thats interesting, thanks for the update mate. Will it take long to get off the writing board and onto the bookshelves?
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: AndrewD2 on <05-23-15/1333:03>
As one of the new freelancers that worked on Data Trails (Dylan Stangel or "The Smiling Bandit" in Shadowrun Chronicles) i can say that there will definitely be some more stuff for Technomancers in there and there are definitely rules for creating and playing AIs, (written by yours truly) but the big supplement for TMs is currently in the works. I can't really say much more than that it has been approved and Amy Veeres and I will be doing our best to give TMs their day in the sun.

Both of us agree that TMs have been shorted in 5E, though i can honestly say that it's never been something we did to reduce their place in SR. We had lots of new ideas for Matrix 3.0 that we wanted to fully flesh out in Data Trails and we felt that it would be better to give TMs their own supplement rather than try to shoehorn everything into DT.

The role of TMs has changed in the 6th world and we're looking to address that in setting as well as in the mechanics.

You've got til next Sunday ... ;)
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: AJCarrington on <05-23-15/1411:47>
ok, thats interesting, thanks for the update mate. Will it take long to get off the writing board and onto the bookshelves?

Digital version should be out by end of May and hoping to have hard copy at Origins (though I suspect it might night until July that you see it on store shelves).
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Darzil on <05-23-15/1836:02>
Will be interesting to see what happens for Technomancers. They could certainly use some help (or fade values reduced - possibly by stuff added in the book).

Though it's my decker that's really interested !
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: AndrewD2 on <05-23-15/1857:14>
ok, thats interesting, thanks for the update mate. Will it take long to get off the writing board and onto the bookshelves?

Digital version should be out by end of May and hoping to have hard copy at Origins (though I suspect it might night until July that you see it on store shelves).

I think he was referring to the Technomancer book mentioned just above his post
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: AJCarrington on <05-23-15/2122:41>
Really...thought he was talking about Data Trails, which will have a lot more on technomancers in it.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Mirikon on <05-25-15/0016:57>
Well, it is good to hear that TMs will be getting their own book.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: dragrubis on <05-25-15/0609:37>
If i understand well, i 'll have datatrail (pdf this week?) with Matrix stuff (and a little TM stuff) and later a lots of TM stuff ans maybe a little Matrix stuff in a other book?

Sorry i'm currently a little ehxausted, and my brain need some rest...
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: AJCarrington on <05-25-15/0954:47>
I think Data Trails is meant to covert the Matrix, which includes deckers and technomancers (and riggers.). There could very well be additional digital releases coming that support technomancers (similar to Shadow Spells), but nothing that I've heard about.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Csjarrat on <05-26-15/0452:15>
Yeah, I was referring to the freelancers post about the tm supplement but good to know dt will be ready shortly in pdf
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: AJCarrington on <05-26-15/1706:42>
Some more art sneaking out:

More Data Trails Art… (http://catalystgamelabs.tumblr.com/post/119941953866/more-data-trails-art)

(http://41.media.tumblr.com/47b1cdb761180b1e5be52c37a2e0db77/tumblr_inline_noyqa1oNvr1s9c9hj_1280.jpg)

(http://41.media.tumblr.com/754624fe672e6c95906a79f715e1e929/tumblr_inline_noyqdwDo6u1s9c9hj_500.jpg)

Getting close!!  ;D
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Gunsaint on <05-26-15/2133:45>
Looks like it just got released in PDF at Drivethru/RPGnow, just picked it up
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Herr Brackhaus on <05-26-15/2147:29>
Purchased :)
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: AJCarrington on <05-26-15/2207:16>
Scooped ;D

DriveThruRPG (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/150001/Shadowrun-Data-Trails) (Digital)

BattleCorps (http://www.battlecorps.com/catalog/advanced_search_result.php?keywords=Trails&x=0&y=0) (Print PreOrder & Digital)
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Pixie on <05-26-15/2304:09>
I need it to be released on the CDT site so my husband can pick it up!
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: AndrewD2 on <05-26-15/2313:02>
Looks like it just got released in PDF at Drivethru/RPGnow, just picked it up

I've got it too!
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: jackiepaper on <05-27-15/0149:02>
ok, thats interesting, thanks for the update mate. Will it take long to get off the writing board and onto the bookshelves?

Digital version should be out by end of May and hoping to have hard copy at Origins (though I suspect it might night until July that you see it on store shelves).

I think he was referring to the Technomancer book mentioned just above his post

The Technomancer supplement is gonna be a digital release. We're in the planning stage of writing so it might be a few months. We're still dividing the work load and figuring stuff out. Hopefully it won't take us too long to write up.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: PiXeL01 on <05-27-15/0205:10>
People must be happy. AI PCs are in
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Medicineman on <05-27-15/0209:03>
by the Way, its already out
http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/150001/Shadowrun-Data-Trails

HougH!
Medicineman
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Triskavanski on <05-27-15/0316:01>
I'm kinda saddened by  what is included so far in the book.. Like the Pain Editor Echo. (Well, I did always say that the Pain Editor is like a Technomancers best friend) And now.. You don't have to do what I did with tobbis to get it.

But seriously. What is up with MMRI? They just printed Mind over Machine again, but this time included language that specifically states you don't get certain things.

Also.. Has anyone noticed any new rules on Silent icons?
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: prionic6 on <05-27-15/0320:49>
I love the Sleaze addons for commlinks!

And the Leeroy Jenkins quality :-P
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Top Dog on <05-27-15/0450:02>
I love the Sleaze addons for commlinks!

So happy with that! Also, finally a noise reduction option for my magician! (although not at the same time - which is good, don't want commlinks to be too useful).
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Top Dog on <05-27-15/0516:49>
Actually scratch that - for cheaper then the dongle, you can add Sleaze to the commlink outright. Huh.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Novocrane on <05-27-15/0602:56>
Actually scratch that - for cheaper then the dongle, you can add Sleaze to the commlink outright. Huh.
Add a Matrix Attribute starts at 1. You need Increase a Matrix Attribute to go higher, and devices can only hold one modification.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Top Dog on <05-27-15/0624:35>
Ah! I didn't think of that. I thought of it as one modification. But you're right.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: AJCarrington on <05-27-15/0643:23>
The Technomancer supplement is gonna be a digital release. We're in the planning stage of writing so it might be a few months. We're still dividing the work load and figuring stuff out. Hopefully it won't take us too long to write up.

Cool...thanks for clarifying that...sometimes, it's rather nice to be wrong. ;D
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Top Dog on <05-27-15/0745:14>
Actually scratch that - for cheaper then the dongle, you can add Sleaze to the commlink outright. Huh.
Add a Matrix Attribute starts at 1. You need Increase a Matrix Attribute to go higher, and devices can only hold one modification.
Ah! I didn't think of that. I thought of it as one modification. But you're right.
And to make my reading incomprehension complete, you can combine Add Matrix Attribute with Increase a Matrix Attribute (it's listed in the end of Add Matrix Attribute). But, presumably, just once, and it costs 2 boxes of damage. For 2 Sneak or Attack. Probably not worth it still. Anyway I should wait until I get home before I start properly reading the thing :)
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Novocrane on <05-27-15/0811:09>
Huh. I skimmed that, and the combination is worse than I thought.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Kincaid on <05-27-15/0842:21>
fyi, the hope is to get a FAQ out before the print version dealing with lingering questions from the core book.  Some of those made their way into DT (the change ownership Hardware Test, for example), but it's hard to stuff all that in and make a readable product.  A few things in DT will be mentioned in terms of how they interact with older stuff--Quick Config and Perfect Time, for example.  MMRI essentially does replace MoM--apparently lots of people thought they got a magical thread of wire and a hole in their temple.  People are weird.  Or at least overly pedantic. 

I wanted to be sure to say thanks to the community for generating all sorts of helpful and interesting ideas and questions when it comes to Matrix-related stuff.  It was immensely helpful to have as a point of reference.  I especially want to thank Xenon (who I suspect has written more words about the Matrix than are actually in Data Trails) for sharing his thoughts.

I'm up against a few deadlines (both SR and work induced), but if you have DT questions, fire away and I'll try to answer as many as I can.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Triskavanski on <05-27-15/0845:28>
I love the Sleaze addons for commlinks!

So happy with that! Also, finally a noise reduction option for my magician! (although not at the same time - which is good, don't want commlinks to be too useful).

Well, there is a spell you've got too that reduces noise
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Top Dog on <05-27-15/0910:54>
Well, there is a spell you've got too that reduces noise
True. I have it, in fact! Saved our bacon too once... Still, having options that don't eat up a precious spell slot and sustained spell penalty is good.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: AJCarrington on <05-27-15/0948:24>
Some additional artwork posted up on Tumblr (http://catalystgamelabs.tumblr.com/post/119994733621/shadowrun-data-trails-available):

(http://41.media.tumblr.com/2d12fd31e50aa693edc41b94a06ec7bc/tumblr_inline_nozpfxywp31s9c9hj_500.jpg)

(http://40.media.tumblr.com/04e4e17e6fa21cc9dd9eb9b04747c2f6/tumblr_inline_nozpi5DXmE1s9c9hj_500.jpg)
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: runarm on <05-27-15/0951:37>
What is the expected street date for the physical book?

R.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: prionic6 on <05-27-15/1112:25>
On p.18 the book talks about how DNI (from trodes - I assume datajacks also work) can add sense of touch, smell and taste to AR and also act as your input instead of gloves. I noted that audio and video are explicitly not mentioned there, it even talks about trodes interacting with your glasses and headphones... I always thought that DNI can add to all of your senses, including sight and hearing. Is that wrong?
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Kincaid on <05-27-15/1119:14>
On p.18 the book talks about how DNI (from trodes - I assume datajacks also work) can add sense of touch, smell and taste to AR and also act as your input instead of gloves. I noted that audio and video are explicitly not mentioned there, it even talks about trodes interacting with your glasses and headphones... I always thought that DNI can add to all of your senses, including sight and hearing. Is that wrong?

No, it's all five senses.  Page 18 discusses the difference between AR and DNI, which is the addition of touch, smell, and taste to the Matrix experience, which is why those three were specified.  For obvious reasons, those three senses are also the ones that require their own sensitivity settings.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Golyo on <05-27-15/1123:38>
FAQ complex form: Computer + Int?
Every other complex form is Software + Resonance, but the aforementioned one. It's strange that there is no Software skill needed for threading this form.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Fedifensor on <05-27-15/1159:28>
Decker on the cheap?

Evotech Himitsu - Data Processing 1, Firewall 2, Sleaze 5 (11000)
Attack Dongle 1 to 6 (3000 x rating x rating)
Device Modification - Add Module (500)
Cyberdeck Module - Program Carrier (900)

Minimum cost (with Attack Dongle 1) - 15400 nuyen
Device stats - A1, S5, D1, F2,  plus one hardwired program of your choice (probably Virtual Machine).  An absolute bargain!

Mid-range cost (with Attack Dongle 3) - 39400 nuyen
Device stats - A3, S5, D1, F2,  plus one hardwired program of your choice.  More effective than the only cyberdeck you can get for that amount of nuyen (the Radio Shack PCD-500).

Maximum cost (with Attack Dongle 6) - 120400 nuyen
Device stats - A6, S5, D1, F2,  plus one hardwired program of your choice.  You're probably better off buying a Little Hornet or C-K analyst and modding that, but still a passable option.

Note that with Virtual Machine, you can run two programs to boost your stats further.  Decryption + Stealth can put you on par with some of the higher-end decks (though your Firewall and Data Processing remain horrible).  A good, cheap system for an AR decker.

EDIT:  The book says it's (Rating)2 x 3000 nuyen, which could either be rating x 2 or rating squared.

EDIT2:  Those in the know are saying it is rating squared.  Prices adjusted.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Kincaid on <05-27-15/1203:46>
Attack and Sleaze dongles cost (Rating)2 x 3,000, so a Rating 6 Attack dongle runs 36,000.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Zweiblumen on <05-27-15/1250:54>
Attack and Sleaze dongles cost (Rating)2 x 3,000, so a Rating 6 Attack dongle runs 36,000.

Wouldn't it have been clearer to just make it (Rating x 6000)?
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Medicineman on <05-27-15/1259:04>
no , its an old Tradition (IIRC since War ! ) to square the Cost of Comlinks,Progs & Matrix Stuff especially High Rating Stuff !

with a traditional Dance
Medicineman
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: prionic6 on <05-27-15/1311:24>
It's still pretty cheap (I assume it's not meant to be rating squared...) but I'd suggest investing the 90000 for a Little Hornet.

edit: It would actually make sense to square the rating to keep high rating addons an uncommon option... And then it makes sense to write it that way, it's just a mistake with the PDF production that it's not in superscript...
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: TheDai on <05-27-15/1327:52>
It will take me a while to read through everything, but as "that guy who basically hoped for an updated Version of Unwired" the echoes and complex forms were really underwhelming. And with Fading Values as glorious as ever, it feels for me that not a single one of them is worth taking damage to the face. But maybe my imagination is just not big enough. When it comes to echoes, I find them not really interesting enough to but them with 13/16/19/22 ... Karma, except for the non-optional Skinlink.

Some new toys for deckers. And some quite interesting qualities.

Other than that a lot of fluff, which I only just began to read. But so far it seems to be good.

So ... is this all TM's will get in 5th Ed. ? If yes, I'll have to talk to my table how to kill mine off in the most glorious fashion and start a Decker.
If not, any news regarding TM's in the future?

Regards,
TheDai
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Top Dog on <05-27-15/1343:02>
So ... is this all TM's will get in 5th Ed. ? If yes, I'll have to talk to my table how to kill mine off in the most glorious fashion and start a Decker.
If not, any news regarding TM's in the future?
They did say a few pages back in this topic that there would be an e-book with further TM options.

~~

On the dongle: if it was rating squared it'd be 106k, not 36k. But yeah, if it's Rating * 2 * 3k, why not just say *6k? Weird.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Kincaid on <05-27-15/1400:05>
TMs have an ebook in the pipeline.  I haven't seen it, so I can't say what's in it (plus, there's the NDA thing).

A quick note on content.

Say you're planning a book about the Matrix and you have a page count of 184.  That number is firm.  Things to include:
1) Stuff about how the world at large and the Matrix interact. Make the Matrix an interesting and compelling place for non-hackers.
2) Stuff for deckers.
3) Stuff for technomancers.
4) Stuff you promised in the core book (see: archives).

Technomancers are awesome and very cool, but are also fairly rare.  That doesn't mean they don't deserve love--they do!--but it does mean that when you're weighing how to allocate pages in a book that is about all things Matrix-y, you can't give them the lion's share at the expense of the other topics (firm page count).  Another balancing act is how much old stuff gets updated versus how much totally new stuff to include.  If the gun mods in Run & Gun had simply been a rehash of 4e, there would have been a lot of people who were psyched--they got to remake their favorite custom gun!  And I totally get that.  On the other hand, there would have been people who would have wondered why we once again have FA sniper rifles and why they're paying full price for a rules conversion.  And I totally get that too.  You have to play to both audiences, which means you can't totally satisfy one.

Looking at the above four items, let's think about how easily each translates to a pdf product, where page count isn't really a factor.
1) This would be more of a Neo-Anarchist's Guide to 2075 type of product.  Which would be awesome, but gets away from the Matrix focus.  Including it in DT gives the product broader appeal and utility to non-hackers.  The Matrix plays an vital role in everyday life in the Sixth World, and finding a way to drive that point home is important to the setting.
2) Deckers are the original and iconic users of the Matrix, so this would be an odd choice.
3) Of the hacking archetypes, this is the less popular one.  TMs exist outside of a lot of the Matrix concepts, so they often require (more) extensive explanation, making a page count-free format more inviting.
4) Given that you were promised archives, this isn't really an option.

I totally get it when people say they want whatever they play to get more attention; I'm the same way.  When you get the 500-page guide to Jack-of-all-Trades/Mastermind characters, you'll know who to thank/blame.  But selling that guide would be tricky since not everyone's tastes align with mine (Philistines!).  Simply going off the lengths of products like Assassin's Primer, I'd guess that this actually is the way of maximizing TM-related pages.

Re: Dongles: Their original price was too low and there was some discussion about how to re-price them.  I'll dig through stuff to see if that's a 2 or a ^2.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: prionic6 on <05-27-15/1421:03>
Oh, the Archives / Foundations stuff is great, btw.! Possibly my favourite part of the book.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Sandorian on <05-27-15/1441:28>
Say you're planning a book about the Matrix and you have a page count of 184.  That number is firm. 
Why just 184 pages? Other core-rulebooks contain about 230 - 250 pages? 60 - 70 pages should be enough to write something about TMs.

Technomancers are awesome and very cool, but are also fairly rare.  That doesn't mean they don't deserve love--they do!--but it does mean that when you're weighing how to allocate pages in a book that is about all things Matrix-y, you can't give them the lion's share at the expense of the other topics (firm page count). ...
TMs are rare, bute AI-Characters are common? I don't think so. If there's a topic for a PDF-DLC its "AI-Charakters".

I totally get it when people say they want whatever they play to get more attention; I'm the same way.  When you get...
Thats true, but a matrix-CORE-Rulebook should contain all stuff necessary to play the core-character-classes introduced in the SR5 mainbook. The TM is of these classes the AI-Charakter is not.

To cut it short: Data-Trails contains a lot of cool stuff, but its not a core-rulebook, its an incomplete core-rulebook which needs a DLC to work for all characters. Until anyone tells me the Technomancer-PDF contains about 150 - 200 pages of new stuff or its free for all  who purchased data-trails it seems to me, that CGL just wants to sell two products where there should be only one.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Fedifensor on <05-27-15/1508:24>
Another fun trick - modify your commlink to add a cyberdeck module for a hardwired agent program (or buy the Nixdorf Sekretar) and add a Sleaze dongle (or buy the Evotech Himitsu).  Even if you can't deck, your agent can do a limited amount of decking on your behalf.

Now, the big question - can you use a commlink dongle on a RCC?  For that matter, can you use a commlink dongle on a cyberdeck?  Both should have the universal data port...
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Kincaid on <05-27-15/1514:52>
Dongles are commlink-only.  Simply having a UDP isn't enough--that would create some weird combinations. 
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: jackiepaper on <05-27-15/1608:23>
Think of it this way. AIs got close to 15K words dedicated to them and were easily one of the longer sections of Data Trails, we have a digital supplement for AIs in the pipe, but it's more about characters than mechanics. I might try and sneak a few more advanced programs and qualities in there, but Data Trails will basically be the definitive rule book for AIs until the rigger book (and that'll really just be more stuff for them to drive around in).

The TM supplement will be at least 35K words and is meant to be the "be all, end all" for technomancers in 5E. Trust me, the lack of print means we can fit anything and everything in even if we go over our pre-approved word count. (and we will)

I don't really know why DT only has 184 pages. I've heard that the cost to sales ratio for printing those huge full color corebooks isn't great. For every person who wants absolutely everything in a single core book, there are a bunch more who look at a giant core book and go "So i'm just gonna ignore 70% of this book and i don't know if $60 is worth that. Can you just throw me a PDF of just ..these... rules."

I think aesthetics and theme are also part of the reason. Data Trails is a Matrix dedicated book. You may feel like it's obvious to flesh out Technomancers more because of that(and we did), but you have to remember that TMs are essentially the Technological equivalent of Dual-natured beings. You can't really flesh them out without addressing the nature of living in two worlds simultaneously. The TM stuff in Data Trails covers the purely Matrix elements of being a Technomancer(Resonance Realms/Wells/Searches), because of the "all Matrix" format of the book. The TM supplement will cover a much wider scope and will step out of the Matrix at times, which would've made it feel odd in a purely Matrix book. 

On the flip-side, AIs needed to be fixed/fleshed out. You may not agree with that notion, but you might want to keep a few important things in mind.

1.) Data Trails is a purely Matrix book and AIs are purely Matrix Entities. Even when interacting with the physical world they have to do it through the lens of the Matrix. They are also readily available as player characters so they get a higher priority than something like Sprites even though Sprites are also Matrix entities.

2.) AIs are a much bigger part of the 6th World than they've ever been and their write-up in Data trails was meant to reflect that.  Puck explains how their roles in society is changed/growing since the Sojourner incident and  Xiao-Renraku vs Horizon. Pulsar and his digital rights group have pushed AIs into the light.  Even if the actual number of TMs is currently higher, Technomancy is only active in a small percentage of the metahuman population. AIs, on the other hand, have a much higher "birth rate" than technomancers, (or even regular humans) and the projections from Unwired guessed that AIs would be more populous than metahumans(let alone the technomancer minority) in a very short amount of time.

3.) AIs have been around since the '40s (technically Mirage was first developed back in '29, but i'm counting from when it "woke up"). They're a huge part of the Shadowrun lore and have been around a lot longer than Technomancers. (they may even be (partially) responsible for the creation of the Otaku and their subsequent evolution into Technomancers) 4E made a lot of steps towards making AIs more common in the 6th world and the goal in 5E was to make them more playable while addressing how the new Matrix has caused them to evolve.

With CFD being a major plot point in 5E we also felt it was important to make sure we didn't keep running a major story arc without proper rules for AIs (they are kind of the focus).

And yeah, the pricing for commlink gears is meant to be squared. I don't know why they didn't use superscript (though it may have to do with superscript being set aside for footnotes markers).
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: cantrip on <05-27-15/1614:10>
Sweet! And ordered!!!  I've been looking forward to this for awhile - enjoyed the intro story already and look forward to digging in this weekend.
Also enjoying the art. :)
You guys rock!  ;D

Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Malevolence on <05-27-15/1644:07>
1.) Data Trails is a purely Matrix book and AIs are purely Matrix Entities. Even when interacting with the physical world they have to do it through the lens of the Matrix. They are also readily available as player characters so they get a higher priority than something like Sprites even though Sprites are also Matrix entities.
Oh, now I want to see rules for Free Sprites and Ally Sprites and Sprite PCs.  :D
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Medicineman on <05-27-15/1649:38>
1.) Data Trails is a purely Matrix book and AIs are purely Matrix Entities. Even when interacting with the physical world they have to do it through the lens of the Matrix. They are also readily available as player characters so they get a higher priority than something like Sprites even though Sprites are also Matrix entities.
Oh, now I want to see rules for Free Sprites and Ally Sprites and Sprite PCs.  :D

wait for the Follow up PDF to the Follow up TM PDF ;)

with a Conga Line
Medicineman
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Shirelagel on <05-27-15/1835:34>
So... overall I like the book. But I have to gripe about the echos (hope an author reads this). The echos seem like they were written by someone who has never read much less played SR5.

FFF: Fine, it's actually pretty cool and balances against Mind Over Machine as an echo that replaces some cyberware

Mathemagics: WTF? Encrypt and decrypt are actions from 4th ed, not 5th. In 5th, this is all part of normal communication protocols (like in real life) so this power makes no sense and mechanically does nothing.

MMRI: A reprint of MOM?

Quiet: AOE noise reducer, could be useful for supplementing a party of deckers and riggers. But not as useful to a lone technomancer. But, not unbalanced.

Resonance Riding: So, you can do resonance actions except compile and register sprites and thread complex forms. That leave decompile sprites. Why can you decompile through a commlink but not compile? Isn't it the same thing in reverse? So realistically all this means is "if you GM said you can't hack with a deck because you technomancer skills are technically different from a decker's take this echo to play an even more expensive build of decker (or to hide your technomancy)

Resonance Scream: Like quiet, not bad, like using the jammer action as a free action without preventing yourself from hacking.

Skinlink: Like FFF and MOM this replaces cyberware, with the bonus of affecting devices even if you cannot get to the port.

Sleepwalker: Badly worded, I assume it was supposed to read "This allows them to choose to perform Perception-related Free Actions while in the Matrix for the real world.". Of course this still isn't all that useful since you could just have a window open with a view of the camera on your comlink.

So, here is how I am fixing these, if anyone cares. I included my design notes in italics. With the idea that echos are small bonuses or simply offer additional base capability.

The technomancer brain emulates a cyberdeck already, and 3 other echos replace cyberware. So why not have one that allows it to simulate a command console. All it needs is the master-slave interface that the living persona normally lacks

MMRI
Known as the Man-Machine Resonance Interface, this echo subtly manipulates the Resonance coming off the technomancer, allowing them to better control devices devices. This allows the Living Persona to act as the Master of a PAN using the Living Persona attributes. Thus allowing the Technomancer to provide master-slave matrix overwatch or slave and command drones as if they had a Command Console. They do not get the benefits of noise reduction as they would with a command console, there are other means to get that. Nor do they have room for autosofts, but if they Echo any programs these would still be passed down to the slaved devices. If they Echo an auto-soft, it runs at a rating equal to their Submersion grade and can apply to all slaved drones that are not running their own autosofts (as normal).

And since the original wording left no applicable actions.... Here is it useful as a means of pretending to be a decker, but not without its drawbacks

Resonance Riding
A strange twist of the Matrix follows the technomancer even through secondary means of connection, giving them the ability to perform some Resonance actions while jacked into the Matrix through a commlink or cyberdeck. While going through this secondary system, the technomancer can use their Living Persona and benefit from any of the Living Persona’s attributes while performing actions, but cannot perform the Compile Sprite, Register Sprite, or Thread Complex Form actions. Matrix damage goes to the device first, resisted with its Device Rating and the Technomancer's Firewall (if better), allowing it to acts as ablative armor for the technomancer. If the device is destroyed the Technomancer can choose to either stay connected as their normal Living Persona, or suffer dumpshock and lose connection. The Technomancer can benefit from programs and noise reduction from the device, but when doing so used the device's attributes instead of his own.

And this was poorly worded and a touch low on usefulness (since they can keep a view of their commlink camera open). So I made it more balanced by adding the distracted penalty to the perception roll, and had it affect the AR penalty, and added an option for actually sleepwalking.

Sleepwaker
The technomancer gains the ability to subconsciously perceive minor events happening around their body while working with the Matrix in VR. This allows them to choose to perform Perception tests of the real world, while in full VR, at -3 dice. This also ensures the technomancer never suffers the -2 penalty for real world acting in AR. Finally, this Echo allows the users to move their body in a mechanical zombie-like manner by splitting their dicepool between the matrix and real, no more than Submersion grade dice can be applied to non-matrix actions while in VR.

Run with the concept of super charging part of your brain, but applying the modifier to stats it would effect. The bonus would be much greater than that of other echos, so to balance that, I made it an advanced echo and effectively the "berserk rage" of a technomancer.

Mathemagics
Advanced Echo Requires: FFF and Overclock
Adjusting the brain to devote more power to higher brain functions increases the subconsious math processing potential of the technomancer. This allows the technomancer to have the ability to perform even complex math operations rapidly and with perfectly accurate results. When activated as a Free Action, this results in a +2 increase in Attack, Data Processing, and Firewall matrix attributes, but the Technomancer suffers a cumulative 1S fatigue damage each round this is maintained, the cumulated value decreases at the same rate. While active, the Technomancer sacrafices concepts of speech, social connection (including friend/foe acknowledgement), and memory. They set themselves to a specific goal and run at it. Such goals could be as simple "pass this math quiz" or a violent as "clear all persona and IC from this host". While active, FFF activates as well, as those parts of the brain turn from base needs to higher functions. Meaning, the technomancer is not aware of the amount of damage they are doing to their brain.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: DeathStrobe on <05-27-15/1919:25>
Software seems like a useless skill still. Its really useful for TMs since its used for threading. But aside from it being used for disarming data bombs, there is no point for it. And while, yes data bombs are dangerous, but what's the point of a skill that is designed to be used in only one specific way. Honestly, it'd probably be better to get rid of software and put its uses in to the computer or hacking skill. There is no rules to write or maintain software, and its not used to analyze programs, because that's a use of the computer skill. So there is clearly no point in having the skill so it should just be done away with.

I was also kind of hoping for some clarification on how skinlinks work. They're in Run & Gun but have no rules for them.

Also, what kind of software are you guys using to make these pdfs? I'd highly recommend using Adobe Indesign, it will generate your table of contents and index for you, which would be nicer than what this current book has.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: taeo on <05-27-15/1924:55>
If you really were locked in at a certain page count and were looking for something to cut, there is an entire chapter about how to play a hacker without having badwrong fun that seems a little unnecessary. Its capped off with some shoehorned politicizing about women in tech that honestly was pretty cringeworthy with how forced and hamfisted it was. As well as completely unsupported by any shadowrun material to date. It felt like someone was trying to make a point about current issues and weren't even concerned about being subtle about it.

I do like the Foundation stuff. I hope an errata is released soon to actually have that node map it talks about. Effectively having backdoors back has pretty much cleared up any complaints I had about the new matrix.

Bummer about the lack of rigging or TM stuff, but I'm sure that will come later. I hope the rigger stuff gets bumped up, because I'm getting a little tired of the arguments over linked attributes while jumped in, haha.

Why is Lurker concerned about convergence from GOD while inside a host? How are they able to access the archive without going through the foundation?
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: ScytheKnight on <05-27-15/1932:24>
Also slightly underwhelmed on the TM front... leading up to release there where posts about how this was going to make TMs a lot more viable and just.... sure there's a massive amount of fluff for TMs, but frankly a couple of qualities and a sprinkling of complex forms and echoes (many of the later so badly worded I have no idea what they're supposed to do) really do bunkus for anyone wanting to play one in the big picture.

Moral of the story? Don't promise stuff you're not going to deliver. Sure there's a TON of info on resonance, realms, and dissonance that as someone new to SR I've been really wanting to read about and I'm excited to see what all this is about. But the only thing here that truly makes TMs more playable is Skinlink which quite frankly is going to be every single hacking focused technomancer's first echo EVER! Honestly, lack of something like skinlink is the single biggest hurdle to actually PLAYING a technomancer that I can see... it's just... why would any technomancer NOT take it? There is ZERO reason! So what's it do? It winds up taking up an Echo, it does nothing to diversify technomancers, it instead winds up reducing their options.

I dunno, a little sleep deprived (was up 'till after 1AM skimming through this) but.. it almost seems to me that Skinlink would be much better served as something you get as part of your first submersion rather than something that will always soak up your first Echo. The only real exception here would be dronomancers/technoriggers who will want MMRI.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Kincaid on <05-27-15/1954:40>
Although I'm the only editor in the credits, other folks did editing work as well (the idea of solo editing 180 pages is not very appealing), so I can't really answer questions about (most) specific editing questions, but can give a decent overview about intent.

@DeathStrobe: I added Garbage In/Garbage Out to address the software deficit, actually.  Since I didn't actually sit down and write a chapter, it's not something that I could address on a larger scale, but software and EWAR are on the top of my "needs more love" list.

@Various TM thoughts: Presumably a fair amount of TM crunch got directed to the TM-specific product (I can only speak for what ended up on my desk).  Having said that, I really feel like technomancers and the Matrix in general needed more fluff.  It's easy to take what's said in these forums or at our own tables as representative, but in a lot of ways, we're way ahead of the curve.  We can have discussions about minority shareholders of Ares, but that's the exception, not the rule.  For someone entering the game, what the Matrix is, what is means, what it looks like, are really important elements of world-building.  One of the roles of a Matrix book is to demystify the Matrix.  Similarly, technomancers aren't refluffed deckers.  We know that because most of us have been playing the game for years.  But we can't assume that everyone who buys DT also owns Unwired, Virtual Realities, and the rest of that lineage.  Any archetype needs both compelling crunch and compelling fluff.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: ScytheKnight on <05-27-15/2026:54>
@Kincaid trust me mate, I'm not complaining too much about the fluff, I'm gonna love digging into this stiff.

But when people are promised amazing stuff for TMs, and then only get a couple of qualities, some possibly useful Complex Forms and a bunch of badly worded echoes... people are going to be rather sore.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: DeathStrobe on <05-27-15/2156:07>
@DeathStrobe: I added Garbage In/Garbage Out to address the software deficit, actually.  Since I didn't actually sit down and write a chapter, it's not something that I could address on a larger scale, but software and EWAR are on the top of my "needs more love" list.

Oh yeah, missed that. At least that does help a bit.

But I think SR4 might have gone a bit over the top when it split skills into many more skills. I realize that it's too late to address that for SR5. But I do hope that we see uses for less useful skills...or maybe some hardcore errata and do away with it...that'd be cool too... :P
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Kincaid on <05-27-15/2204:30>
@Kincaid trust me mate, I'm not complaining too much about the fluff, I'm gonna love digging into this stiff.

But when people are promised amazing stuff for TMs, and then only get a couple of qualities, some possibly useful Complex Forms and a bunch of badly worded echoes... people are going to be rather sore.

That's fair--I don't really know what was promised in terms of volume or scope.  I've often found that awesome varies tremendously from person to person.  FFF is awesome in an obvious and powerful way.  To me, Quiet and Res Scream are awesome because of the roleplaying potential of both--think how popular a guy with Quiet would be living in a low income zone with noise.  That's not super powerful or optimized (and I'm not against either of those things, but players make choices for non-optimal reasons sometimes), but it's cool and adds depth and richness to a character, which is pretty awesome.  It's worth noting that there are apparently a ton of pages devoted to technomancers on the horizon.  35k words is a LOT of pages--way more than could have possibly been shoehorned into DT.  In a sense, the problem isn't that there isn't enough TM material (although at this moment you can make that case), it's that there's too much.

@DeathStrobe: I think the best way to incorporate rare skills is probably through creating scenarios in modules that require them, if only to give GMs ideas as to how to use Free Fall (or whatever) in a normal, non-parachuting game.  In that sense, I don't think it's too late at all.  Trust me, I hate the "Automatics, Sneaking, done" characters out there, given the chance to throw them down an elevator shaft, I'll take it.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: ScytheKnight on <05-27-15/2240:52>
Look at some of the pregen stuff for ideas.

Heck even Plots & Paydata have a run that makes pretty good use of Software skill.

Sprawl Wilds has a mission that makes use of both hardware and software skills.

How do you make a player use the software skill? Give them a situation where they need a program to do something not covered by any of the existing programs. BAM! The character now needs to make an extended software test to write a specially tailored program (with possible added hilarity on glitches)
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Triskavanski on <05-27-15/2314:03>
Assuming how many words would be on a page? going by 500 words per page, we're looking at around 70 pages, depending on how much art is included and the formatting and all that.

Data trails came out to about 186 something pages without those, and would be somewhere around 250 pages with them. Granted that would be 20 pages over Street Grimore. Then again, its only about 20 pages over Street Grimore. It would be 8 pages or so under Run Faster.

What determines the size of the books if its not the content to be added? Why does  Data Trails have the look of not really big splash books (Like Gun H3ven and Shadow Spells) with its table of contents and not the  TOC of Street Grimore, SR5 Core, Run and Gun, Run Faster
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: DeathStrobe on <05-27-15/2328:00>
Well, since you're here helping clarifying things Kincaid, how do AI's handle convergence when outside of a device?

I know they need to resist 12 Matrix which hits their core. Assuming that doesn't knock them out, a demiGOD shows up and hits them with Crash Program until they start realignment. But how does an AI escape? Do they need to "jump in" to a device? It looks like on p153 an AI can jump in to devices with a command or spoof action, and I assume if successful, they're in. And once in they have 3 marks. So I guess they have to successfully reboot the device to wipe their OS and hope that whatever device they just entered is owned by someone friendly.

If an AI commands a device to load them, what kind of action is that? Complex, simple, or free? Because that'll determine how many marks they need. I guess they can just spoof, which only requires 1 mark. And just to make sure, but it sounds like an AI can do this to a device which already has a persona. I guess if an AI needs to make room to jumpin to a device, they'll need to do a crash program action if there are not enough open slots.

Okay, I guess I answered my own question. That all seems logical and bad ass to me. I can easily see a runner having an AI trying to escape GOD jump in to a runner's commlink, deck, or drone, which is an amazing plot hook.

It also says that persona's which have an AI in them take a -5 to Matrix actions. But at the same time, if its the home device, the AI optimizes and makes the device run better. Does that -5 apply to AIs when jumped in to their home device? And say, I'm a decker trying to stay on the bleeding edge, so naturally having an AI move in to my deck is a good way to get that little extra nudge. But I guess while the AI is home, the decker takes a -5 to all actions?
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Pixie on <05-28-15/0000:45>
You know what I'm seeing a lot of here?  Kincaid, one of the editors and freelancers, giving us all a candid look at what happens to make a book like Data Trails come out.  And in return, he is getting shit on by all the people who think that they could have done it better.  For what it's worth, I think it's a good thing that TMs will get a dedicated book.  Much like how riggers need a dedicated book.  Think of this analogy: a street samurai kills a bad guy by shooting him or slicing him (or both!).  A physical adept kills a bad guy by shooting him or slicing him (or both!).  They achieve similar results, but they go about it in VASTLY different ways.  That's what Kincaid means by saying that a technomancer is not just a re-skinned decker.

And he's completely right in his defense of the Matrix as a concept for new players.  Just because some of the people here have been playing for decades doesn't mean that's the case for all of us.  And even those that have played for decades didn't necessarily know how to describe the new Matrix.  We can all agree that the description of the Matrix and its architecture in the core book was lacking.  This fills that hole.  And many other holes, actually.  The only thing that people seem to have an issue with is that technomancers didn't get as much love as we all hoped.

Note that word there: hoped.  No one with Catalyst told us that technomancers would be getting the be-all-end-all solution in Data Trails.  The only thing that was listed about specifics was that technomancers would get new content with Data Trails - and they did.  Bear in mind that echoes, streams, paragons, and complex forms are all exclusive to technomancers, while everything else about the Matrix is open to anyone.  Literally.  Data Trails is like Arsenal or Run & Gun for the Matrix.  The new technomancer book will (presumably) be like Street Grimoire, Shadow Spells, and Aetherology.

Assuming the law of averages, it's pretty unlikely that every group will have a technomancer.  But it's statistically likely that every group will have a hacker (note that a hacker is not necessarily a decker).  Even if that hacker is a rigger trying to get by, or a face who has a bunch of skills and money to burn.  So this book addresses the most likely, most prevalent, most realistic aspects of the Matrix that need(ed) attention.  So please stop trying to take out your nerdrage on Kincaid.  He doesn't deserve it, and you all should be better than this.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Fedifensor on <05-28-15/0019:18>
@DeathStrobe: I added Garbage In/Garbage Out to address the software deficit, actually.  Since I didn't actually sit down and write a chapter, it's not something that I could address on a larger scale, but software and EWAR are on the top of my "needs more love" list.
Garbage In/Garbage Out is pretty amazing.  If you can stealth around long enough to get 3 marks on a Spider, he's toast.  You use Garbage In/Garbage Out to turn his Data Spike action into a Jack Out action.  Then you just use an Attack action to edit the file you're after, and laugh yourself silly as the Spider gets hit with Dumpshock.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Triskavanski on <05-28-15/0028:29>
I'm not sure where you're seeing nerd rage at all here Pixie, unless its nerd rage is anything but unquestionably accepting something and not trying to ask questions of why something was done a certain way.

For me, I want to know why Data Trails has the ToC it does. I don't like it, and it doesn't follow the more detailed ToCs of the previous books. And why the book couldn't include Technomancers. If it isn't content available to be added to the book, then what is it? Especially when Data Trails is the smallest of the books that have come out, beyond the typical 10-30 page splat books.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: DeathStrobe on <05-28-15/0051:34>
I'm not sure where you're seeing nerd rage at all here Pixie, unless its nerd rage is anything but unquestionably accepting something and not trying to ask questions of why something was done a certain way.

For me, I want to know why Data Trails has the ToC it does. I don't like it, and it doesn't follow the more detailed ToCs of the previous books. And why the book couldn't include Technomancers. If it isn't content available to be added to the book, then what is it? Especially when Data Trails is the smallest of the books that have come out, beyond the typical 10-30 page splat books.

My personal assumption is they needed to do layout quickly to get the print version ready for Origins. Its also why I think the TM section was cut. It seems like everytime CGL gets a book ready for the convention season that it ends up having a lot more problems than normal, like Street Grimoire. I personally didn't mind all the flaws of SG, just because I have to house rule and interpret rules all the time. I am however a bit annoyed that the TM section isn't in Data Trails. Its a bit difficult to house rule and interpret things that aren't there.

I'm also not sold on a TM pdf source book. Those are usually less than 30 pages. I don't think that'll be enough to cover everything. Shadow Spells wasn't enough to cover all the missing parts of SG. So I'm actually expecting the TM book to be...serviceable but lacking.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Tarnus on <05-28-15/0558:44>
Someone on Catalysts writing team sure appears to hate Germans, otherwise I can't really explain myself the bizarre decision to call the SK-Grid ÜberWelt. Because a German company with a single all powerful leader who most likely considers himself better then humans certainly doesn't wake any questionable connotations. Seriously, this wouldn't have flown with any marketing department in the world and especially not one as meticulously managed as SK.
(Though to be fair, for some bizarre reason someone made the weird decision to give multiple German police corps the initials SS. Those corps also the reputation to be highly racist, so apparently weird Nazi associations appear to have a history here and marketing in SR corps seems to be mostly concerned with smoking crack.)

Liebesekretär. No. Just no. For none-native speakers it might not be obvious, but for us this word is so obviously constructed by someone who has never spoken more german than maybe, at best, in a class at college a dozen years ago. It's highly akward and again, not something a German company would ever name anything.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Kincaid on <05-28-15/0653:46>
I lived in Frankfurt aM for a bit when I was in graduate school and I admit to looking at Liebesekretär and thinking about changing it.  Ehestifter (eqv.) just doesn't convey as well to an English-speaking audience.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Tarnus on <05-28-15/0716:35>
I lived in Frankfurt aM for a bit when I was in graduate school and I admit to looking at Liebesekretär and thinking about changing it.  Ehestifter (eqv.) just doesn't convey as well to an English-speaking audience.

I get that, but I think putting an additional s in there (Liebessekretär) would work wonders for a start. That would solve the akward gendering, since Liebe in that context would be equivalent to Dear for women (with Lieber for men), while Sekretär is the male form of the word (the female being Sekretärin).
Another option would be Liebesbote ("messenger of love"), while admittedly old fashioned is an existing word (though I get why you might want to stay with Sekretär in that case)..
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Pixie on <05-28-15/1105:30>
I'm not sure where you're seeing nerd rage at all here Pixie, unless its nerd rage is anything but unquestionably accepting something and not trying to ask questions of why something was done a certain way.

So you didn't read the posts by Shirelagel, taeo, and Sandorian?
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Kincaid on <05-28-15/1120:05>
@DeathStrobe: I added Garbage In/Garbage Out to address the software deficit, actually.  Since I didn't actually sit down and write a chapter, it's not something that I could address on a larger scale, but software and EWAR are on the top of my "needs more love" list.
Garbage In/Garbage Out is pretty amazing.  If you can stealth around long enough to get 3 marks on a Spider, he's toast.  You use Garbage In/Garbage Out to turn his Data Spike action into a Jack Out action.  Then you just use an Attack action to edit the file you're after, and laugh yourself silly as the Spider gets hit with Dumpshock.

Or you can make someone "Reply All" with a sensitive email (eqv.), swap key inputs (making keypads inaccessible to most), have a PANICBUTTON! send an "all-clear" message.  Really, the idea was to make it attractive enough to at least get some deckers to think about Software and give TMs a little love from the Matrix action side of things.  Use today's common operating systems as a guideline.  I can delete something, but I get a prompt asking me if I want to save changes (which would be two keystrokes).  On the other hand, if someone tinkered with my phone so my boss received all the texts I send to my wife (I select her as a recipient with a single keystroke)--well, that would get weird.

With 3 marks in a Matrix combat situation, pretty much whatever you do is going to go over well, and GI/GO can make for some really amusing/potent combat scenarios.  Its out-of-combat applications (imo) are really where it can shine.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: SmilinIrish on <05-28-15/2037:45>
Yes, that stuff works.  One of my wife's work friends took her iPhone and programmed a shortcut so that "LOL" typed out "I am a lesbian".  hilarity ensued. 
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Shirelagel on <05-29-15/0210:00>
Pixie, I am hating only the 1 page of echoes. It was a waste of space that is quite possibly the worst section of any gaming book I have ever seen. Its reprinting duplicate powers under different names and making expensive powers that apply to rules that aren't in the game are a couple pretty big sins in my book.

The rest of the book is great. The host details and foundation stuff is great. The new complex forms are awesome. The new programs are sweet. The mods and dongles are an excellent addition. The specialized decks are super useful for a street level game. And AIs seem like they decently well balanced as PCs. And examples! I love examples of game play. Overall, an excellent book.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Top Dog on <05-29-15/1920:39>
So I was looking at shinies to buy for my magician, and I was wondering: how expensive are commlink apps? I can't find a cost listed anywhere.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Shirelagel on <05-29-15/2008:43>
I couldn't find it either. I figured that the apps are covered by your lifestyle. I'd limit players to device rating apps running at once.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Herr Brackhaus on <05-29-15/2026:42>
I'll be honest, y'all lost me on the Foundation. I intensely dislike the "new" concept of a mystical Matrix; I can get behind resonance being an x-factor much like magic, but basing the entire worlds digital infrastructure on something that not even the designers seem to understand is something I just can't get behind. To me, it feels like a cop-out, especially since the technology of Shadowrun has always been very grounded in what might be possible. Data Trails takes the Foundation a step too far for me, personally, because I can no longer associate a sense of realism with the Matrix, unlike in previous editions where the Matrix was always the evolution of our very own internet and was (largely) based on actual computing principles. As someone who has always appreciate the level of detail invested in Shadowrun, perhaps in spite of consequences like the relatively steep learning curve for all things Matrix, this is not a direction I am fond of.

That being said, I do appreciate the efforts by the writing team on a lot of the actual rules; if I just choose to ignore that whole "no one really knows how the Matrix works" aspect that I strongly dislike, the rules for deep dives seem very promising, and I really appreciate the clarification on Patrol IC. While I felt the section on commlink gear was somewhat underwhelming (especially the fact that there was little love for riggers and their RCCs, which can run cyberprograms but can't accept cyberdeck modules?), the last section on Mastering the Matrix was absolutely fabulous in terms of summarizing the Matrix 3.0 concepts and making them easier to understand and implement in an adventure.

Finally, though, I'm saddened to see the continuation of a trend I've noticed where more advanced rules from previous editions no longer make the cut in the 5th Edition core books.

First weapon modifications were mostly omitted from Run Faster (potentially, and this is all speculation on my part, in favour of demo rules that I don't personally know anyone really wanted and/or are using much), then the rules for advanced interaction with the Astral realms, extended information and rules on initiation, and rules for spell design from Street Magic didn't make it into Street Grimoire, and now finally Data Trails has no trace of the advanced software rules, no technomancer streams or paragons (though this may be addressed in a PDF book I personally think this is a poor choice of strategy deviating from SR4), or all the nifty simsense gear from Unwired, just to name a few.

All in all, I feel that the core supplements for 5th Edition have been solid offerings in the grand scheme of expanding the basic rules for SR5, but as someone who enjoyed playing 2nd Edition and immersing myself in 3rd and 4th I think the potential these books had to be so much more was a sorely missed opportunity.

For what it's worth, I'll keep buying the books as long as you keep writing them, and I want to make sure to note that I don't have anything against the writers here at all. I just really hope the direction for the entire line gets taken a good, hard, long look at, because I personally feel streamlining the play experience is starting to cut into the vastly rich and complex setting I've come to love (and sometimes hate, I'll be the first to admit) over the years.

/rant
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Novocrane on <05-29-15/2129:07>
I'd limit players to device rating apps running at once.
Half that; page 55.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: DeathStrobe on <05-29-15/2206:28>
@Herr Brackhaus

It makes sense that the Matrix has become so complex that people just don't understand how it works. It also makes some sense that there would be some resonance mixed in with the new protocols since Dodger helped make them, and he's now a mancer. Its nearly impossible to accurately model technology 60 years into the future. So going the super abstract route with interesting story possibilities is a better option than attempting to model tech that'll be an obsolete concept in 5-ish years. It also helps keep the setting interesting and less predictable.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Triskavanski on <05-29-15/2254:57>
Besides that, Radio shack is suppose to still be a thing in 2075.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Herr Brackhaus on <05-30-15/0037:00>
@Herr Brackhaus

It makes sense that the Matrix has become so complex that people just don't understand how it works. It also makes some sense that there would be some resonance mixed in with the new protocols since Dodger helped make them, and he's now a mancer. Its nearly impossible to accurately model technology 60 years into the future. So going the super abstract route with interesting story possibilities is a better option than attempting to model tech that'll be an obsolete concept in 5-ish years. It also helps keep the setting interesting and less predictable.
As you no doubt will have surmised from my last post, DeathStrobe, I strongly disagree with you on that.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: DeathStrobe on <05-30-15/0055:29>
I just read Body Hunt. I didn't read it originally because it was really long and I wanted to get to the crunch.

I assume Wolf is from Wolf and Raven. And it sounds like if you can jack-in or jump-in or whatever, into a headcase that you enter a Foundation, or at least something really close to it. This leads to questions of how AI PCs can reprogram CFD nanites and also makes me wonder how overwriting and merging personalities work with multiple AIs in one headcase. It also hints that you might be able to go to the resonance realms and find erased people, which gets into all kinds of weird metaphysical questions of what is the soul.

Anyway, really good read, but really hard to follow it at first.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Pixie on <05-30-15/0153:05>
My husband had a theory from a while back, back when 5th edition first started, that there were technomancers behind the new Matrix protocols.  When he initially suggested that one or more of the megas had found a way to tap into using the Resonance, he was scoffed at on these forums.  So...  he was mostly right.  The Foundation is, as near as I can tell, a Resonance Realm.  The only thing he seems to have been wrong about was that it wasn't MCT that led the charge.  Instead, it was NeoNET.  He figured that MCT's little gardens probably yielded some really interesting, applicable results.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: jackiepaper on <05-30-15/0157:35>
We actually had some pretty long and heated discussions about how close to existing or projected technology we wanted to stay. We have more than a few people working as freelancers that are well versed in computer science and we knew that sitting down and hammering out the exact technical details(i'm talking EVERYTHING, what languages of codes would it accept, how exactly do you "boost" the performance of something by connecting it to the Matrix, what type of CPU architecture do they use, what's the power requirement to generate or transmit megapulses of data, and so on and so on) would not only take FOREVER, but it wouldn't really offer GMs or players any tangible gameplay benefit either.

We thought it better to take a few liberties with what tech could do in the 2070s to better fit narrative concepts than straight tech. Especially since tech in the 2070s has advanced so far beyond our own that we can't accurately predict what would spring up outside of the things that modern science thinks is possible. It's like how a few Sci-fi series from the 50s and 60s imagined long-range radio communicators or cellphone type objects, but never predicted something as advanced as a smartphone(i.e. a powerful hand-held computer). In their concept of the future, technology was BIGGER not smaller. Back then, bigger was better. Even Star Trek is terrible about this, they have tiny communicators on their chests, warp drives and teleporter technology yet their computer consoles tend to blow up after their starships take a hit. We got rid of that risk IRL years ago (can you imagine if your computer just exploded any time there was a powersurge?). How clumsy and fragile, yet they are supposed to be superior to us in tech.

One of the things that was funny about SR 3E was that we had a, supposedly, technologically advanced world that didn't have a WI-FI equivalent even though that technology was becoming a HUGE at that time IRL.  We could very easily find SR going through that again if we don't stay outside of the box.

The other thing is, everyone likes to think that corporations and governments only do the things that are guaranteed to work, as if every Government agency or Megacorp thought/planned like NASA. If something is even a little bit risk you just throw it out and keep what has been proven to work 99% of the time.

The truth is that success in business is always a gamble and there are no sure things. No matter how much you plan and test and revise, something will always go wrong.  Let's not forget that Renraku took EVERY precaution when developing Deus and look at how that turned out.

Companies like Microsoft put out their Flagship products knowing full well that they could be improved (or are completely broken and in need of a recall) which is why software updates are such a common thing now. The same goes for AAA video games (where Day 1 patches are the norm now) or even the consoles themselves (how many Xbox360s did Microsoft end up replacing?). Hell the Healthcare.gov site was a NIGHTMARE to try to work that they had to retool for months afterwords and that had an entire government's worth of resources and personnel to develop and test.

So the idea here isn't, "they have no idea how the new Matrix works because it's so darn mystical, yet they get it to do stuff....somehow." 

Instead its more like,  "We built this new thing and rushed it to the public because we wanted to regain control of the Matrix. Don't worry, we tested it! It's totally safe.....though there might be a few bugs we haven't found or worked out yet.  They're incredibly rare and...mostly harmless....:cough:.... just call us if anything goes wrong. Dont. Touch. Anything." Which is pretty standard for most high tier services.

If a megacorp says they've made a completely safe and fool proof product, you might want to take that claim with a grain of salt. If all of the megacorps tell you they've made a completely safe and fool proof product, you know something is up.


Oh, and foundations definitely aren't resonance realms. The Matrix is the Matrix and the Resonance is the Resonance. They interact with each other, but they are definitely separate things. Resonance Realms are far too wily to be tamed and they shift constantly; you wouldn't be able to set up the control systems that exist within a foundation.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: jackiepaper on <05-30-15/0204:57>
I guess i should say, the Matrix and Resonance are interdependent. But they are not the same space. Like Life and Mana. All life has mana, but not all life is magical and every strange place in the real world can't be a metaplane because...you know., they're in the real world.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Nath on <05-30-15/1651:24>
One of the things that was funny about SR 3E was that we had a, supposedly, technologically advanced world that didn't have a WI-FI equivalent even though that technology was becoming a HUGE at that time IRL.
The first version of the 802.11 protocol was released in June 1997, at which point companies were to start designing equipment that would implement it. It wouldn't actually be called "Wi-fi" before the release of 802.11b in September 1999.

Shadowrun third edition was released in January 1998, and considering the time requirement for printing and shipping, I'd guess it had to be fully written or close enough by Q3 1997.

Then in January 2000, extended rules from the Matrix book (again, likely written a few months before) did introduce cellular and radio links, which totally allowed wireless operations for cyberdecks. The only drawbacks were a vulnerability to jamming and a slower I/O speed (respectively 100 and 200 Mp per Turn, instead of 300 for a regular landline - if SR3 got something wrong about modern computer technology, it rather lies in filesize and data transfer speed).
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: TwilightVulpine on <05-30-15/1930:35>
There are a few things that I miss from SR4 that so far I didn't see addressed in SR5 in general or Data Trails.

Making your own Programs. While Matrix Actions now don't need a particular program, it feels very fitting for a Decker to have their own signature programs with unique twists. Its even mentioned that it is something the Software skill can do in SR5 but I didn't find the rules for it.

Getting Hosts, like you could buy your own Nexus, some chill place you can call your own in the Matrix, where the GODs won't bother you unless you leave a digital blood trail.

Simsense Hacking. If there is one setting spot that was barely explored in Shadowrun was this. Simsense is considered ubiquitous enough that it is used as a mass entertainment form, but it doesn't seem to be focused on besides of BTLs and Cybercombat. You don't need to always cave someone's brain in to do fun things, it's literally a connection to someone's feelings. Unwired has a small blurb about how subliminal simsense messages were used by corps until (and likely after) it was made illegal, but even that had no rules for it. Instead of a Data Bomb, a decker could plant a subtle suggestion in their files to make someone more cooperative, or scared, even within cold-sim limits. It would be an interesting form of prep work. The closest thing we got here was the Tantrum program, but even that could be just one variant of many. It also had PAB Brainwashing, which wasn't subtle in any way or form.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: jackiepaper on <05-30-15/2030:12>
One of the things that was funny about SR 3E was that we had a, supposedly, technologically advanced world that didn't have a WI-FI equivalent even though that technology was becoming a HUGE at that time IRL.
The first version of the 802.11 protocol was released in June 1997, at which point companies were to start designing equipment that would implement it. It wouldn't actually be called "Wi-fi" before the release of 802.11b in September 1999.

Shadowrun third edition was released in January 1998, and considering the time requirement for printing and shipping, I'd guess it had to be fully written or close enough by Q3 1997.

Then in January 2000, extended rules from the Matrix book (again, likely written a few months before) did introduce cellular and radio links, which totally allowed wireless operations for cyberdecks. The only drawbacks were a vulnerability to jamming and a slower I/O speed (respectively 100 and 200 Mp per Turn, instead of 300 for a regular landline - if SR3 got something wrong about modern computer technology, it rather lies in filesize and data transfer speed).

I won't argue that,mostly because my point was that wifi was widespread by the early 2000s IRL but it didn't become a major SR tech until the 2060s. That's a pretty big gap.

I don't really know why we didn't include rules for making your own programs. The function of cyberprograms is very different in 5E so determining thresholds and options would be weird.
I tried to throw some simsense hacking into the AI Abilities but I do have plans for some TM abilities that affect simsense in the future.

As far as renting hosts go, that's a big can of worms.I don't know why we didn't include rules for it.  You'd definitely need a legitimate Sin, a clean criminal record, and a business license.

To be honest, I'd treat a host like a separate lifestyle cost and use the guide for AI homes as a price guide. Anything above rating 7 would require Corp status or some serious connections.

Also, you'd still have to hack the door to the foundation, since the info on how it works is legally protected and entering the for foundation voids your contract. You'd still be able to call up files from the archive though since you'd have ownership clearance. They would just come up with a matrix action though, you wouldn't actually go into the archive.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Herr Brackhaus on <05-30-15/2339:15>
How is ownership of a host dealt with, since matrix objects can only ever have one owner?
Quote from: SR5 page 236
Every device, persona, host, and file has an owner. This is a special relationship that offers special privileges. Each Matrix object can only have one owner, but you can own as many Matrix objects as you like.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Pixie on <05-31-15/0003:00>
How is ownership of a host dealt with, since matrix objects can only ever have one owner?
Quote from: SR5 page 236
Every device, persona, host, and file has an owner. This is a special relationship that offers special privileges. Each Matrix object can only have one owner, but you can own as many Matrix objects as you like.

I'm not saying that the answer is obvious, but if it was my table, I'd say that corporations count as owners.  That said, it does make for some gummy situations with regards to the owner-specific matrix actions being performed by spiders and such.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: jackiepaper on <05-31-15/0359:15>
How is ownership of a host dealt with, since matrix objects can only ever have one owner?
Quote from: SR5 page 236
Every device, persona, host, and file has an owner. This is a special relationship that offers special privileges. Each Matrix object can only have one owner, but you can own as many Matrix objects as you like.

For legal purposes, the company would be the "owner" of the host. For functional purposes, there's a system admin (every host would have one) who should have ownership authority (4 marks) in the host. This person is usually a spider or decker, depending on the type of host, though it could just be someone in the company that is just "tech savvy" enough to change the icons now and then. Either way this person has the ability to set the parameters the host uses when assessing users and inviting marks.

For some places this could be more closely monitored (like a secured facility host where the spider checks everyone personally) or it could just be some basic protocols like stores would have (assess customer citizenship and credit status, invite mark/refuse mark, pull consumer shopping profile, provide recommendations based on previous purchases) where patrol IC is left to watch the fort and the admin is only called in for emergencies.

Anyone could be given 3 marks by the admin (or more likely host itself since the admin would program the host to automatically recognize employees as authorized users)  and do almost everything though. (the exception being  the change icon action, but if they really HAAD to do that they could just make a copy of the file using the edit action and then change the icon of their copy and delete the original.)

Hope that helps.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Novocrane on <05-31-15/0407:02>
Quote
That said, it does make for some gummy situations with regards to the owner-specific matrix actions being performed by spiders and such.
Those spiders would run the corporation's persona. Which is great for the faceless and replaceable thing they might have going. Doubly so if anyone can unquestionably sort out the concept of using host's "no distance based Noise" thing to keep cyberdecks somewhere impenetrable and use spiders from all over the world.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Grinder on <05-31-15/1114:23>
Finally, though, I'm saddened to see the continuation of a trend I've noticed where more advanced rules from previous editions no longer make the cut in the 5th Edition core books.

First weapon modifications were mostly omitted from Run Faster (potentially, and this is all speculation on my part, in favour of demo rules that I don't personally know anyone really wanted and/or are using much), then the rules for advanced interaction with the Astral realms, extended information and rules on initiation, and rules for spell design from Street Magic didn't make it into Street Grimoire, and now finally Data Trails has no trace of the advanced software rules, no technomancer streams or paragons (though this may be addressed in a PDF book I personally think this is a poor choice of strategy deviating from SR4), or all the nifty simsense gear from Unwired, just to name a few.

That's a trend I don't understand. It can't be because of a lack of knowledge, seeing how many freelancers and staff members have been around in SR4 times. If it was a decision based on plan, it needs to be communicated/ promoted much better.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Triskavanski on <05-31-15/1635:09>
Finally, though, I'm saddened to see the continuation of a trend I've noticed where more advanced rules from previous editions no longer make the cut in the 5th Edition core books.

First weapon modifications were mostly omitted from Run Faster (potentially, and this is all speculation on my part, in favour of demo rules that I don't personally know anyone really wanted and/or are using much), then the rules for advanced interaction with the Astral realms, extended information and rules on initiation, and rules for spell design from Street Magic didn't make it into Street Grimoire, and now finally Data Trails has no trace of the advanced software rules, no technomancer streams or paragons (though this may be addressed in a PDF book I personally think this is a poor choice of strategy deviating from SR4), or all the nifty simsense gear from Unwired, just to name a few.

That's a trend I don't understand. It can't be because of a lack of knowledge, seeing how many freelancers and staff members have been around in SR4 times. If it was a decision based on plan, it needs to be communicated/ promoted much better.

Or if they do make the cut, its usually some of the worst rules of the previous edition (In the case of a lot of different exotic weapons) or the rules get rebalanced multiple times, such as the changeling.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: firebug on <05-31-15/1716:03>
Hmm...  Saw the Echoes from a friend's book.  Not super happy with the limited number.  MMRI is totally redundant isn't it?  And Skinlink being an echo means every TM has their first 13 Karma predetermined, realistically.  And kinda annoyed by the FFF echo since it makes actually having built a TM character to use a Pain Editor be...  Pointless and less unique.  And Mathemagics?  Really?  A +2 Limit to a small group of rolls?  A static limit increase?  This should not be an echo.  This should be a quality like Analytical Mind.  Quiet and Resonance Scream are interesting and kinda useful at least, though again it bothers me that it's a static number.  A number literally every decker can easily beat, but...  Whatever.  Two is better than nothing.

I just have to say...  Like, cool, awesome.  TMs are gonna get their own book.  But god dammit, to be waiting for Data Trails since the edition came out to see TMs get a bunch of material, only to hear like freaking week before it comes out that "Oh, no, we're saving all the good TM stuff for a book you have to wait even longer for!" pisses me off.

I'll probably get my own copy but...  I'm disappointed.  Not even streams and paragons!  I mean, seriously?  This would be like if fucking Street Grimoire came out three months later than it did, but it lacked anything about mentor spirits and traditions, had half as many spells and half as many metamagics.  And then someone came and implied maybe those things would be in the next book specially for magicians that you'd have to wait three more months for and pay for as well.

I'm not saying this is some kind of marketing manipulation thing, but I'm not comfortable with how close it gets to being one by coincidence.  This is a serious disappointment.

I really hope the TM-specific book actually does what it needs to, so the people who write it don't get threatening emails from twice-burnt fans.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: AndrewD2 on <05-31-15/1916:52>
OK I see people complaining about "Skinlink" as an echo. I'm not sure what it's supposed to be,but in "Unwired" its an Echo too.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Miri on <05-31-15/2005:12>
OK I see people complaining about "Skinlink" as an echo. I'm not sure what it's supposed to be,but in "Unwired" its an Echo too.

In 4th though there wasn't a huge benefit to being directly connected to something beyond the lack of noise and unjammable.  In 5th a direct connection lets you avoid high firewalls from a Master device.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: AndrewD2 on <05-31-15/2313:09>
OK I see people complaining about "Skinlink" as an echo. I'm not sure what it's supposed to be,but in "Unwired" its an Echo too.

In 4th though there wasn't a huge benefit to being directly connected to something beyond the lack of noise and unjammable.  In 5th a direct connection lets you avoid high firewalls from a Master device.

Got it, thanks. I didn't play 4th and I'm still learning 5th. Still trying to decide my first Echo whether it'll be Skinlink or Overclocking.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: firebug on <06-01-15/0652:55>
I'd suggest Skinlink, because without it TMs have no way to get a direct connection.  It makes up for that huge issue and also is plain good/sneaky.  It just is so needed to do stuff like entering hosts, that it's kinda upsetting that it's still an echo and not something more accessible.

TMs need stuff like Enhancements from Street Grimoire.  An ability they can buy that isn't quite Echo level, but isn't just a quality-level ability.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Herr Brackhaus on <06-01-15/0722:15>
Couldn't a Technomancer use trodes to form a direct connection?
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Darzil on <06-01-15/0929:33>
Might be nice to give one echo to a Technomancer at Chargen - being able to have Control Rig 1 or Direct Connection from the off would help make on site hacking and techno-rigger viable.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: prionic6 on <06-01-15/0940:50>
Our group allows the Technomancer to establish a direct connection by attaching a data tab and connecting to it wirelessly. edit: That's not RAW
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Triskavanski on <06-02-15/0048:38>
Aye, its understandable a lot of people are annoyed at the whole skin link thing. Mostly because its so big a thing to form the direct connection, and you know there will be an augment for it too.

I agree that whole Mathmatical thing should have been something else.. Unless you know, there was some technomancer stuff to work with it. Like a technomancer fighting style that uses mathmatics. But I have to ask.. Why in the world does not a single Echo expand with submersion grade? Why is it so often nothing more than a small stat increase?


Also, I want to note that I believe you can put an agent on a commlink now. Could be useful.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Novocrane on <06-02-15/0134:57>
Quote
Also, I want to note that I believe you can put an agent on a commlink now
You mean outside hardwiring virtual machine to the commlink, and running an agent through that? Because last check, they only have room for apps.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: jackiepaper on <06-02-15/0236:27>
Aye, its understandable a lot of people are annoyed at the whole skin link thing. Mostly because its so big a thing to form the direct connection, and you know there will be an augment for it too.

I agree that whole Mathmatical thing should have been something else.. Unless you know, there was some technomancer stuff to work with it. Like a technomancer fighting style that uses mathmatics. But I have to ask.. Why in the world does not a single Echo expand with submersion grade? Why is it so often nothing more than a small stat increase?


Also, I want to note that I believe you can put an agent on a commlink now. Could be useful.

Understand that i cannot go back and rewrite the core mechanics of TMs. What they are is what we have to work with. I didn't write the complex forms or echoes in Data Trails so i'm in the same boat as you.

Skinlink was an echo in 4E and it's an echo in 5E. It's done and i can't go back and change it, so asking for it over and over again will not make that happen.

MMRI will obviously need to be fixed because it's a reprint. I don't know if the writer just didn't know that was already an echo or if something got jacked in editing. I'll ask him about that and Mathemagics (because i have no idea what it's supposed to be for either).

As far as echoes not being tied to Submergence grade, i don't know why that has been the case so far, but i have several planned that will be tied to submergence grade.

I am considering something similar to sidebar in Unwired that contained the "alternate" technomancer rule. That gets secondary priority though. I am looking to address the Fading issue and bring back/update some of the more interesting echoes from 4E.

Streams and Paragons are also top of the list priority. It ain't right that every character has to be a techno-adept.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: ScytheKnight on <06-02-15/0253:14>
Fair enough mate... I guess the main reason people are crying foul about Skin Link as an echo so much is because Hacking is about the only thing they're viable at and what the vast majority of the rest of their abilities are built around.

If you had more stuff to support Dronomancers/Technoriggers and maybe even some sort of combat powers... well... then that opens up more variety in that first echo. Hackers would take Skin Link, dronos/riggers would take MoM/MMRI, combat technos would take something else... heck maybe even having some other kind of 'wildcard' role technos can play and they might have something else they would want as a first Echo.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: jackiepaper on <06-02-15/0259:57>
My goal is always to make mechanics that allow for a range of characters instead of a single "useful" build. I hate when i see stuff like that.

Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: ScytheKnight on <06-02-15/0303:50>
Yeah, I know for me I real really peeved to see Skinlink as an Echo simply because it's a total no brainer. Give TMs more roles and there's less pressure for them to play as a hacker, thus less need for that first 13 karma to go into getting Skinlink.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Top Dog on <06-02-15/0429:54>
So something I was wondering earlier and that came up in a recent discussion as well...

Can you run Virtual Machine (in a useful fashion) on a Commlink through a Program Carrier modification?

It's pretty clear that you can run Virtual Machine, which gives you 2 slots for cyberprograms. But does the fact of having 2 cyberprogram-slots give the commlink the ability to run cyberprograms, or is that a seperate ability? (If it is, it makes Virtual Machine useless on commlinks; if it isn't, it makes Virtual Machine fantastic on commlinks).
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Triskavanski on <06-02-15/0909:49>
Quote
Also, I want to note that I believe you can put an agent on a commlink now
You mean outside hardwiring virtual machine to the commlink, and running an agent through that? Because last check, they only have room for apps.

Well, I was going more of hardwiring the Agent program with the add a module thing.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Top Dog on <06-02-15/0917:33>
Quote
Also, I want to note that I believe you can put an agent on a commlink now
You mean outside hardwiring virtual machine to the commlink, and running an agent through that? Because last check, they only have room for apps.

Well, I was going more of hardwiring the Agent program with the add a module thing.
Program Carriers come with the program pre-installed for free. Are you saying you can buy a module with a 12000 nuyen agent pre-installed for 900 nuyen? Because nope.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Pixie on <06-02-15/1117:56>
Oh, and foundations definitely aren't resonance realms. The Matrix is the Matrix and the Resonance is the Resonance. They interact with each other, but they are definitely separate things. Resonance Realms are far too wily to be tamed and they shift constantly; you wouldn't be able to set up the control systems that exist within a foundation.

Sorry for the late reply.  So would it be accurate to describe to someone the Foundation as a visual representation of the inner workings of a very powerful quantum processor?  Based on the shifting of the Foundation that constantly occurs unless someone is present in some form, it sure sounds like quantum physics.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: jackiepaper on <06-02-15/1257:24>
Oh, and foundations definitely aren't resonance realms. The Matrix is the Matrix and the Resonance is the Resonance. They interact with each other, but they are definitely separate things. Resonance Realms are far too wily to be tamed and they shift constantly; you wouldn't be able to set up the control systems that exist within a foundation.

Sorry for the late reply.  So would it be accurate to describe to someone the Foundation as a visual representation of the inner workings of a very powerful quantum processor?  Based on the shifting of the Foundation that constantly occurs unless someone is present in some form, it sure sounds like quantum physics.

We've discussed the idea that SR tech probably already uses quantum computing (how else could you process megapulses of data?) so the Foundation is more like the by-product of linking hundreds of thousands (if not millions or billions) of quantum and sub-quantum devices into a single network.

The other big thing to keep in mind that is made a little foggy in the text (though i do enjoy how scary it is) is that technological systems are usually developed by numerous and seperate teams. While one team will have a solid idea of how it's own system operates and how any interlinked processes operate, they are completely unaware of other aspects. Development would go MUCH slower if every single person working on a project had to fully understand and be fluent in each aspect of the project. Thus, only the coordinating managers from the various corps (remember GOD is essentially just the Big 10, not a national/government entity) would have a broader understanding of what the new Matrix actually is. Even then, it's within each Megacorps best interest to keep certain aspects of operation to themselves.

This means that realistically there are very few people (maybe less than 2 dozen) who understand EVERY aspect of the new Matrix. (like how you can make a million different colas but the recipe for Coca-Cola is only known by two people at a time)

It's true that we don't fully understand how the new Matrix works, but it's more akin to a technological revolution than a mystical discovery. Before the Awakening, science was magic. We've just hit a technological discovery that went so much further than we expected that it seems magical again.

Then again, there is the distinct possibility that we've pushed tech into a realm which bridges the Matrix and the Resonance to some degree. If that's the case, it's an accidental discovery, like Penicillin. No one (that we know of) possess the ability to manipulate Resonance on that scale for that long.

You can do stuff like geomancy and affecting ley lines with magic but you have to remember that Magic is technically thousands upon thousands of years old.  Even going simply by the 6th world timeline, Magic has been active 3 times longer than the Resonance and Technomancy is still in it's infancy.

In my own personal opinion(which i had as a theory in DT but had to cut for wordcount), the Resonance began when simsense was invented and people started recording and uploading their deepest thoughts, fears, hopes and desires into the Matrix.

The Matrix is literally a virtual reality that we created to give ourselves a level of control over "reality" that we can't achieve/maintain over the physical world. So much so that when simsense first came out, people thought it signaled the end of society since so many people were quickly addicted. (of course early simsense didn't have the same safety features or limiters that exist now. Not until they integrated Psychotrope's code in the 30s)

The thing is, we also built the Matrix to make our lives easier. We created all these devices that are supposed to learn what, how and when we want the things we design. When you tell something that interconnected to learn what you want and then literally give it all of your desires and fears, it has to have an effect right? Especially after decades of collecting data.

That also means that while mana is returning to the world, Resonance is still growing into....something. There are no Dragons or Immortal elves that can tell us what Resonance will be because it's completely new to them too. The Resonance is apparently growing fast (technological growth is certainly exponential right now) so it may develop faster than Magic first did, but our understanding of it won't necessarily grow at the same rate just because the source is getting stronger.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Pixie on <06-03-15/0100:21>
Thanks for the insight, Jackie!  It helps to get to understand the minds of those who create these kinds of things, if only so that we might approach the content from different directions.  Your insights have been very helpful.  :)
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: JackVII on <06-03-15/1103:27>
From what I recall, dongles can only be slotted in a commlink. Any reason to not allow extending that to an RCC, the red-headed stepchild of persona-forming devices? A Sleaze or Attack rating could really help out a rigger in certain situations (running silently, clearing MARKs, etc). While you could certainly add one of the Attributes and boost it to 2 through modification, a dongle would obviously allow a much higher rating.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Csjarrat on <06-03-15/1133:50>
From what I recall, dongles can only be slotted in a commlink. Any reason to not allow extending that to an RCC, the red-headed stepchild of persona-forming devices? A Sleaze or Attack rating could really help out a rigger in certain situations (running silently, clearing MARKs, etc). While you could certainly add one of the Attributes and boost it to 2 through modification, a dongle would obviously allow a much higher rating.
It can run cyberprograms so you could always just run stealth and/or decryption on it
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Herr Brackhaus on <06-03-15/1139:41>
Seconded on dongles. They really should, in my opinion, be available for RCCs as well. I'd even go so far as allowing cyberdeck modules for RCCs, personally.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Novocrane on <06-03-15/1152:40>
Quote
dongles can only be slotted in a commlink. Any reason to not extend that to an RCC?
Not that I can see (yet), no ...
Quote
A rigger command console [...] can act like a commlink and has all the features of a commlink in addition to the cool drone stuff.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: JackVII on <06-03-15/1154:31>
It can run cyberprograms so you could always just run stealth and/or decryption on it
True, good point. That would pump it up by another point for either, but then you start to cut into your autosofts for sharing.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Csjarrat on <06-03-15/1217:35>
It can run cyberprograms so you could always just run stealth and/or decryption on it
True, good point. That would pump it up by another point for either, but then you start to cut into your autosofts for sharing.
Could load both into a virtual machine so they only take one slot?
Or you could mod the rcc with a program carrier and load it with one of the above. Its pretty cheap that way too and doesn't have any side effects
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: SichoPhiend on <06-03-15/1242:05>
It can run cyberprograms so you could always just run stealth and/or decryption on it
True, good point. That would pump it up by another point for either, but then you start to cut into your autosofts for sharing.
Could load both into a virtual machine so they only take one slot?
Or you could mod the rcc with a program carrier and load it with one of the above. Its pretty cheap that way too and doesn't have any side effects

Last I checked, the juries still out on this one,some believe that decryption and stealth add 1 to an existing attribute and that an RCC does not have either attribute (this is different from having the attribute at 0), if this is indeed the case than having access to the dongle (Or going the add a mod route) may be the only options for adding these attributes... personally I hope the upcoming rigger book (and I mean upcoming before a new addition as I have no idea when we will see it) will have more options for riggers than just the single mod any device can have.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: JackVII on <06-03-15/1249:00>
Last I checked, the juries still out on this one,some believe that decryption and stealth add 1 to an existing attribute and that an RCC does not have either attribute (this is different from having the attribute at 0)
That's always been my take, regardless if it was contrary to Aaron's opinion that Edge could be used to allow a commlink to Data Spike something.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Fenix on <06-03-15/1328:35>
As far as echoes not being tied to Submergence grade, i don't know why that has been the case so far, but i have several planned that will be tied to submergence grade.

I am considering something similar to sidebar in Unwired that contained the "alternate" technomancer rule. That gets secondary priority though. I am looking to address the Fading issue and bring back/update some of the more interesting echoes from 4E.

Streams and Paragons are also top of the list priority. It ain't right that every character has to be a techno-adept.

I'm happy to hear this. There are a lot of 4e echoes I was really hoping to see brought back, and the existing ones just seem to lack any real "umph".

I was especially miffed that Multiprocessing (an echo in 4e's Unwired) was absent, but showed up as an AI Quality instead with almost the exact same wording. Honestly that one can easily be used as an echo in 5th, just replace every "AI" with "Technomancer" and replace "Depth" with "Submersion Grade". Fixed - extra echo for everyone!  ;D
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Kincaid on <06-03-15/1405:18>
I can certainly understand why riggers would want to be able to add a dongle to their RCC, but that would represent a huge change to the rigger's role in the game, to say nothing of skewing the cyberdeck/RCC pricing scheme.  If riggers are due for that sort of sea change, it'll happen in the rigger book.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: JackVII on <06-03-15/1433:07>
I dunno... a rigger being able to adequately hide their spy drones from being spotted in the Matrix by having a reasonable sleaze rating doesn't seem like a sea change to me.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Csjarrat on <06-03-15/1515:08>
I dunno... a rigger being able to adequately hide their spy drones from being spotted in the Matrix by having a reasonable sleaze rating doesn't seem like a sea change to me.
Yeah, sounds much more like common sense and something every rigger would take reasonable steps to do! like encrypting your RCC comms in 4e, or running a stealth program in 4e, or running a non-standard wireless link in 4e.
Not really much of a sea change lol.

It can run cyberprograms so you could always just run stealth and/or decryption on it
True, good point. That would pump it up by another point for either, but then you start to cut into your autosofts for sharing.
Could load both into a virtual machine so they only take one slot?
Or you could mod the rcc with a program carrier and load it with one of the above. Its pretty cheap that way too and doesn't have any side effects

Last I checked, the juries still out on this one,some believe that decryption and stealth add 1 to an existing attribute and that an RCC does not have either attribute (this is different from having the attribute at 0), if this is indeed the case than having access to the dongle (Or going the add a mod route) may be the only options for adding these attributes... personally I hope the upcoming rigger book (and I mean upcoming before a new addition as I have no idea when we will see it) will have more options for riggers than just the single mod any device can have.
That really needs clearing up then as it looks pretty clear cut that you can use them that way; there's nothing RAW saying that drones, vehicles, RCCs etc can't benefit from them like decks do.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Kincaid on <06-03-15/1554:14>
I dunno... a rigger being able to adequately hide their spy drones from being spotted in the Matrix by having a reasonable sleaze rating doesn't seem like a sea change to me.

A rigger able to generate his own marks is.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Csjarrat on <06-03-15/1601:46>
they could hack in 4e! just needed the software
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: JackVII on <06-03-15/1621:34>
I dunno... a rigger being able to adequately hide their spy drones from being spotted in the Matrix by having a reasonable sleaze rating doesn't seem like a sea change to me.

A rigger able to generate his own marks is.
But a Street Sam or Mage with an Attack Dongle attached to his commlink isn't? I guess I'm confused.

With that said, thank you for clarification on the RCC/dongle issue. As you can see, most people assumed they worked just fine together.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: firebug on <06-03-15/1715:04>
After reading a bit more, I'm bothered by the cyberprograms.  They are cool, don't get me wrong.  In fact, I love them!  But instead of Cat's Paw or Tantrum being just actions that a hacker can do, now they are impossible for TMs to do without making terrible choices.

However, gotta say...  +5 Sleaze for an amount of Noise Reduction that every decker can get with minimal investment?  Uh, what the fuck guys.  Data Jack, Signal Scrubber, Vectored Signal Filter.  (The filter can be installed permanently, too, which seems like the most reasonable choice.  It theoretically even stacks with itself, meaning you could have NR left over).

And yes, I absolutely would be willing to risk any extra noise (which mind you, isn't going to be any if I'm in a host) becomes a penalty for an extra five dice for running silent and not being spotted, along with an obscene Limit on a lot of tests.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Herr Brackhaus on <06-03-15/2044:20>
Wait, since when is riggers being able to hack a massive change? They did so just fine in 4th Edition, and as mentioned by others, it's apparently just fine for a street samurai or mage to do so, so what gives? Seriously, what is with the lack of love for riggers in this edition? I feel like throwing my hands up in the air right now, because that rationale makes absolutely zero sense to me, both mechanically and from a story perspective. If there's one area riggers should be able to excel at in addition to piloting their vehicles and drones it should be protecting their gear with EWAR, particularly if the team doesn't have a dedicated Decker. Completely removing an ability from an archetype mechanically just seems like a really poor decision to me; instead of having lots of options for thematic characters, restricting choices like this seems to me like it would be more likely to pigeonhole riggers to be pure riggers and making it very hard to make characters with diverse skill sets...

Well. At least i know what one of my first house rules are going to be.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Fedifensor on <06-04-15/0031:44>
Can you run Virtual Machine (in a useful fashion) on a Commlink through a Program Carrier modification?

It's pretty clear that you can run Virtual Machine, which gives you 2 slots for cyberprograms. But does the fact of having 2 cyberprogram-slots give the commlink the ability to run cyberprograms, or is that a seperate ability? (If it is, it makes Virtual Machine useless on commlinks; if it isn't, it makes Virtual Machine fantastic on commlinks).
The Program Carrier is a cyberdeck module, so it runs programs that can be run on cyberdecks (not to be confused with the apps that commlinks can run), even if the device isn't normally able to run programs.  The Program Carrier can be installed on a non-cyberdeck device (such as a commlink) through device modification.  In this case, the Program Carrier runs Virtual Machine, and Virtual Machine runs the two other programs.

Of course, it is up to the GM to determine if you lose your 12,000 nuyen agent program when someone bricks your commlink and burns out the module...
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Pixie on <06-04-15/0103:27>
The simple solution would be to make it so that only cyberdecks and living personas can perform attack or sleaze actions.  Even with a dongle.  I can only imagine, but I can't think of a good reason to allow dongles to replace cyberdecks.  A commlink should not be a cyberdeck, any more than a cyberdeck is a RCC.

If a rigger wants to hack something, they can certainly try - but without either an Attack or Sleaze attribute, it'll be tough.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Csjarrat on <06-04-15/0418:24>
The simple solution would be to make it so that only cyberdecks and living personas can perform attack or sleaze actions.  Even with a dongle.  I can only imagine, but I can't think of a good reason to allow dongles to replace cyberdecks.  A commlink should not be a cyberdeck, any more than a cyberdeck is a RCC.

If a rigger wants to hack something, they can certainly try - but without either an Attack or Sleaze attribute, it'll be tough.

that might be simple but it then pretty much invalidates the new options, rendering them fairly useless
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Top Dog on <06-04-15/0518:17>
The simple solution would be to make it so that only cyberdecks and living personas can perform attack or sleaze actions.  Even with a dongle.  I can only imagine, but I can't think of a good reason to allow dongles to replace cyberdecks.  A commlink should not be a cyberdeck, any more than a cyberdeck is a RCC.

If a rigger wants to hack something, they can certainly try - but without either an Attack or Sleaze attribute, it'll be tough.

that might be simple but it then pretty much invalidates the new options, rendering them fairly useless
As far as I can tell it renders the Attack dongle completely useless. The stealth dongle only mostly so.

(Re. Pixie:)
Dongles don't replace Cyberdecks anyway. To get the equivalent of a mid-rating deck, you have to spend 108k nuyen - half of a 6/5/5/3 deck - and than you only get one of the two ratings - for both, you pay more than the deck. Granted, you then have 0/6/7/7, but considering the Cyberdeck can run more programs to up those ratings (or do other useful stuff), the cyberdeck still wins out.

The same general idea holds for lower-rating decks. That doesn't mean dongles don't have their place. Full decks don't have the 7 firewall/DP that a good commlink brings (unless they sacrifice their attack stats, or until it's a really high end deck), and for a secondary 'decker', or a backup device, you don't need both ratings, and certainly not maxed out. But dongles will never be able to efficiently replace decks for a true decker.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Herr Brackhaus on <06-04-15/0755:39>
Of course, it is up to the GM to determine if you lose your 12,000 nuyen agent program when someone bricks your commlink and burns out the module...
Easy enough; keep a copy of the program on offline media, just like riggers should with their expensive autosofts. You might lose the commlink and it's program module or a drone, but at least you don't have to pay thousands of nuyen in software all over again just to make yourself operational again.

The rules clearly state you can't run two copies of the same program on one device, but there are no copyright rules in core. There is, however, several ways to copy files, and since a program is an icon that can be interacted with, I know how I'd play that.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Pollution on <06-04-15/0821:53>
After reading a bit more, I'm bothered by the cyberprograms.  They are cool, don't get me wrong.  In fact, I love them!  But instead of Cat's Paw or Tantrum being just actions that a hacker can do, now they are impossible for TMs to do without making terrible choices.

Sorry, don't get it.  What terrible choices?  Cat's paw is a data spike that distracts the target at -2+marks.  Tantrum is icky, but what is the connection to TM's?  or rather, what is the terrible choice?  Sorry, I don't understand your point.

However, gotta say...  +5 Sleaze for an amount of Noise Reduction that every decker can get with minimal investment?  Uh, what the fuck guys.  Data Jack, Signal Scrubber, Vectored Signal Filter.  (The filter can be installed permanently, too, which seems like the most reasonable choice.  It theoretically even stacks with itself, meaning you could have NR left over).

And yes, I absolutely would be willing to risk any extra noise (which mind you, isn't going to be any if I'm in a host) becomes a penalty for an extra five dice for running silent and not being spotted, along with an obscene Limit on a lot of tests.

Where is this coming from?  I didn't see this in DT, and I didn't find it at a glance either.

I too am pissed about the content of the book being so lite for TMs, but I don't get your post.  Please clarify?

thanks
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Ursus Maior on <06-04-15/0831:11>
I can certainly understand why riggers would want to be able to add a dongle to their RCC, but that would represent a huge change to the rigger's role in the game, to say nothing of skewing the cyberdeck/RCC pricing scheme.  If riggers are due for that sort of sea change, it'll happen in the rigger book.
I always find these balancing arguments very awkward to play. Essentially rational developments are victimized over what could be excelent devolpments in a campaign. Imagine the breakthrough of smartphones an tablets: They basically killed netbook-style laptops as they were known before.

Technological development should be incorporated into the game, if it fits how technologies are supposed to work. Unless surpressing technologies makes sense within the storyline, i.e. blueprints etc. are destroyed by a corporate hit etc.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Top Dog on <06-04-15/0855:10>
After reading a bit more, I'm bothered by the cyberprograms.  They are cool, don't get me wrong.  In fact, I love them!  But instead of Cat's Paw or Tantrum being just actions that a hacker can do, now they are impossible for TMs to do without making terrible choices.

Sorry, don't get it.  What terrible choices?  Cat's paw is a data spike that distracts the target at -2+marks.  Tantrum is icky, but what is the connection to TM's?  or rather, what is the terrible choice?  Sorry, I don't understand your point.

However, gotta say...  +5 Sleaze for an amount of Noise Reduction that every decker can get with minimal investment?  Uh, what the fuck guys.  Data Jack, Signal Scrubber, Vectored Signal Filter.  (The filter can be installed permanently, too, which seems like the most reasonable choice.  It theoretically even stacks with itself, meaning you could have NR left over).

And yes, I absolutely would be willing to risk any extra noise (which mind you, isn't going to be any if I'm in a host) becomes a penalty for an extra five dice for running silent and not being spotted, along with an obscene Limit on a lot of tests.

Where is this coming from?  I didn't see this in DT, and I didn't find it at a glance either.

I too am pissed about the content of the book being so lite for TMs, but I don't get your post.  Please clarify?

thanks

His first point is that those programs add new tactical options to Deckers - giving penalties to Matrix Actions instead of doing damage - while keeping those tactical options from Technomancers (practically, at least - for Deckers it's a simple program slot that you only use when needed, for technomancers it's a massive karma expense that's useless when you're not using it). I kind of agree with that point too.

The second part of your quote is about the Smoke-and-Mirrors programs, which adds (up to) 5 Sleaze at the cost of the same amount of noise (for tests made with that deck only). That's a huge boost of Sleaze for a relatively minor drawback - the noise can be reduced fairly easily, or outright ignored in many circumstances.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Herr Brackhaus on <06-04-15/1135:00>
Pollution
I believe firebug is referencing the fact that a technomancer cannot perform the actions the Cat's Paw and Tantrum programs allow (or indeed any program) without Submerging and taking the Resonance Program echo for each individual karma.

To illustrate; a decker picks up Cat's Paw and Tantrum in order to be able to use these new features. the deckers technomancer friend has to submerge (spending 10+(grade*3) karma each time) and pick the Resonance Program echo for each of those, at minimum costing the technomancer 13+16=29 karma for something the decker pays 500¥.

I believe the second point references the Smoke-and-Mirrors program, which lets a decker increase his decks Sleaze attribute by a value between 1 and 5, at the cost of also increasing noise for "any test performed with the deck" by the same value. If all you're doing is running silently and/or trying to avoid detection after a successful Hide action +5 Sleaze is worth it's weight in gold, especially for only 250¥.

Firebug
Apologies if I made any incorrect presumptions; feel free to correct me if I did.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Triskavanski on <06-04-15/1624:17>
Yeah, deckers are highly flexible on the net, technos less so. Even if the program echo was changed to work a but better than that for the techno
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: jack0byte on <06-04-15/2107:31>
Aye, its understandable a lot of people are annoyed at the whole skin link thing. Mostly because its so big a thing to form the direct connection, and you know there will be an augment for it too.

I agree that whole Mathmatical thing should have been something else.. Unless you know, there was some technomancer stuff to work with it. Like a technomancer fighting style that uses mathmatics. But I have to ask.. Why in the world does not a single Echo expand with submersion grade? Why is it so often nothing more than a small stat increase?


Also, I want to note that I believe you can put an agent on a commlink now. Could be useful.

Understand that i cannot go back and rewrite the core mechanics of TMs. What they are is what we have to work with. I didn't write the complex forms or echoes in Data Trails so i'm in the same boat as you.

Skinlink was an echo in 4E and it's an echo in 5E. It's done and i can't go back and change it, so asking for it over and over again will not make that happen.

MMRI will obviously need to be fixed because it's a reprint. I don't know if the writer just didn't know that was already an echo or if something got jacked in editing. I'll ask him about that and Mathemagics (because i have no idea what it's supposed to be for either).

As far as echoes not being tied to Submergence grade, i don't know why that has been the case so far, but i have several planned that will be tied to submergence grade.

I am considering something similar to sidebar in Unwired that contained the "alternate" technomancer rule. That gets secondary priority though. I am looking to address the Fading issue and bring back/update some of the more interesting echoes from 4E.

Streams and Paragons are also top of the list priority. It ain't right that every character has to be a techno-adept.

Hi sorry for the late reply please don't take this a criticism and feel free to tell me if this wouldn't work but in the techno book would it be possible  for there to be a Quality to receive one of a set list of echos (Skinlink  MMRI any thing else that wouldn't brake the game) the only way I can think of that would get round the problem with out having to change whats already been written

Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: firebug on <06-05-15/1109:19>
Herr Brackhaus and Top Dog, you guys nailed what I meant, yeah.  I look forward to seeing one of my players start the game with a deck with 14 Sleaze, along with a LOG of at least 8, and be unable to be found by anyone.

I realized of the threads about TMs and Data Trails, this would fit in best here.  It's rundown of a large number of the cyberprograms and how I feel about them in relation to the decker/technomancer dichotomy.

Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: ShadowMaster on <06-05-15/1809:27>
Programs should have been left as part of threading instead they removed threading of programs and make them only accessible through submersion.
I miss having Smartlink as a TM.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: firebug on <06-06-15/1447:39>
Sleepwalker kind of bothers me.  The Echo, where it lets you take Perception-Based Free Actions.  It's...  An incredibly minor ability, and I would have preferred it be Simple Actions so you can at least make Observe in Detail actions to find out what the hell something is.  As is, while it can do something like "you hear someone and feel your body move", you can accomplish this with, say...  A camera and/or a motion detector on your person.  This is once again so not worth a Submersion.  What the shit guys...!

I was hoping it'd be like the one echo from 4e.  What was it?  "Multiprocessor"?  Where you can make a single Matrix-based Observe in Detail type action once a turn?  Something like that.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Darzil on <06-07-15/0846:35>
  • Fork: Jesus christ is this powerful.  This is one of the only ones worth actually taking Resonance Program for.  Should this be something all TMs can just do?  Hell no!  But I mention this as an example of another problem I have with cyberprograms--  Wildly varying power levels.  I have never seen a decker not use this multiple times in every run.
I haven't used it at all, but only because it just seemed so broken and I didn't feel like taking the piss. I'd be ok with it if you split the dice pool like multiple combat attacks, though.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Triskavanski on <06-08-15/0139:20>
Aye, its understandable a lot of people are annoyed at the whole skin link thing. Mostly because its so big a thing to form the direct connection, and you know there will be an augment for it too.

I agree that whole Mathmatical thing should have been something else.. Unless you know, there was some technomancer stuff to work with it. Like a technomancer fighting style that uses mathmatics. But I have to ask.. Why in the world does not a single Echo expand with submersion grade? Why is it so often nothing more than a small stat increase?


Also, I want to note that I believe you can put an agent on a commlink now. Could be useful.

Understand that i cannot go back and rewrite the core mechanics of TMs. What they are is what we have to work with. I didn't write the complex forms or echoes in Data Trails so i'm in the same boat as you.

Skinlink was an echo in 4E and it's an echo in 5E. It's done and i can't go back and change it, so asking for it over and over again will not make that happen.

MMRI will obviously need to be fixed because it's a reprint. I don't know if the writer just didn't know that was already an echo or if something got jacked in editing. I'll ask him about that and Mathemagics (because i have no idea what it's supposed to be for either).

As far as echoes not being tied to Submergence grade, i don't know why that has been the case so far, but i have several planned that will be tied to submergence grade.

I am considering something similar to sidebar in Unwired that contained the "alternate" technomancer rule. That gets secondary priority though. I am looking to address the Fading issue and bring back/update some of the more interesting echoes from 4E.

Streams and Paragons are also top of the list priority. It ain't right that every character has to be a techno-adept.

Oh of course. Its never really just a call for you to go and fix all our woes, but rather whoever would be actually the one who would be involved in actually changing and erratting stuff.

Which makes me think, possibly a reason why Errata  seems to be so slow for the somethings. Could it be because of some sort of legal mumbo jumbo stuff that is really out of both the freelancers and catalysts control but is stuck somewhere in the Organization of governmental bureaucracy organization of red tape? I've heard some horror stories before about companies being forced by some governmental groups to sue the fans in order to keep a hold of their licenses because the fan was making stuff for the game for free, and the government figured if you're letting this one person do it, everyone should have your thing now.



I'm still in the boat that Mathemagics could be great if it had things to go with it, that allowed a Technomancer to kill people with their brain. I know Encryption and Decryption are somethings that were in 4th as some sort of program thingies now. But looking at it from a non-4e mechanics view.. Mathematics is pretty big in creating ciphers. Alan Turning for example broke the enigma with his extensive knowledge of math. So cause I wasn't looking at it through the definition of encryption/decryption as being 4e related actions, I saw it more as being something tied a little more to Analytical mind.

Which reminded me of two things. Gun Kata (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O4mS_3hWwtk) and A scene in firefly where River Song mumbles out some mathematical equations to taking out her foes. This leads to me thinking of somehow getting a new defense quality, like acrobatic defender, but for something Mathematical. Or other ways of using a fighting style based around calculating numbers.

I dunno though, I can't really get too far in it myself.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Miri on <06-08-15/0444:28>
Which reminded me of two things. Gun Kata (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O4mS_3hWwtk) and A scene in firefly where River Song mumbles out some mathematical equations to taking out her foes. This leads to me thinking of somehow getting a new defense quality, like acrobatic defender, but for something Mathematical. Or other ways of using a fighting style based around calculating numbers.

I dunno though, I can't really get too far in it myself.

Uhh.. thats River Tam.. River Song is from Dr Who.  ;D
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Triskavanski on <06-08-15/1226:01>
Well uh... somethin somthing clever and witty about rivers.

I got nothin
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: ScytheKnight on <06-09-15/0041:29>
Sorry, gaffs like that tend to wash away witty responses.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Bull on <06-10-15/0117:44>
Wait, since when is riggers being able to hack a massive change? They did so just fine in 4th Edition, and as mentioned by others,

SR4 was the exception, not teh rule.  Every other edition, they couldn't.

And, you guys keep pointing out that the the Street Sam and Mage can ghetto-hack with a commlink and...  Sleazing and hacking extension.  A widget.  A gizmo.  A doodad.  I will refer to it as anything BUT a fraggin' Dongle.  So if you want your rigger to do the same, get yourself a commlink too.  Not like they're all that expensive.

But for the record "Acts as a..." and "Is a..." are separate things.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: JackVII on <06-10-15/0923:53>
And, you guys keep pointing out that the the Street Sam and Mage can ghetto-hack with a commlink and...  Sleazing and hacking extension.  A widget.  A gizmo.  A doodad.  I will refer to it as anything BUT a fraggin' Dongle.  So if you want your rigger to do the same, get yourself a commlink too.  Not like they're all that expensive.

But for the record "Acts as a..." and "Is a..." are separate things.
I've pretty much moved past the dongle thing. High rating dongles are expensive. You can replicate the feat easily enough with a reasonably high end RCC, an add Matrix Attribute mod, an Increase Matrix Attribute mod, and the Smoke and Mirrors program. Since you're probably already investing in the RCC in the first place, the cost to do it is significantly lower than a dongle.

Yay, hacking riggers again! Just have to put some points in the hacking skill.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Herr Brackhaus on <06-10-15/1052:50>
Nice going, JackVII. That takes care of the problem with dongles if you have to play by RAW.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: ShadowMaster on <06-10-15/1503:08>
A sidebar with an optional rule for Resonance [Program] would be nice.
Two suggestions that come to mind are,
Each time you take it you open up a program slot to put any program.
or take it once and you have a number of program slots equal to your submersion grade.
I'm using the later as a house rule.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: noddy_93 on <06-11-15/0330:59>
Hello do the Echos from the core rulebook MOM and MRI from data trails stag giving a possible rigger console value of 6?
Otherwise the echo really makes no sense at all
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: PiXeL01 on <06-11-15/0353:30>
Nope, it's just a copy :/
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: noddy_93 on <06-11-15/0537:03>
But why does it have another name then? And who needed a reprint just for clarification, that a data jack and data cable is not included?
That makes absolutly no sense.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Novocrane on <06-11-15/0702:15>
... Yes. We're all waiting for the FAQ, updated errata, and whatever else is coming.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Zweiblumen on <06-12-15/1329:14>
A sidebar with an optional rule for Resonance [Program] would be nice.
Two suggestions that come to mind are,
Each time you take it you open up a program slot to put any program.
or take it once and you have a number of program slots equal to your submersion grade.
I'm using the later as a house rule.

I love the second one. I'd love to see something like the [A/S/D/F] Upgrade increase in power with your submersion grade.  Something like Grade/2 (rounded down)max of 2?  Dunno, that makes the power step very severe.  1st submerge attack +1, 2nd submerge sleeze +1, 3rd submerge dp +1, 4th submerge ASDF +2 :/  dunno, but something like that.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Malevolence on <06-12-15/1426:37>
A lot of good ideas, but I just want to caution people that Submersion Grade and Resonance are unbounded, so tying benefits to them with no other limitation is not feasible long term for many features. If you allow people to have program slots at Submersion Grade or Resonance (or even something like Resonance/2), eventually they will have the ability to run 10 programs at once (or 20, or 40, etc). Same with matrix attributes, etc. Just keep this in mind.


So, for the change to Resonance [Program], make it something like slots = Resonance/2 with a maximum of 6 (commensurate with the top of the line deck). This gives a fair number of program slots to start, but still keeps if from becoming ridiculous.


Having said that, I'd like to see most of the Technomancer Echoes errata'd to tie them to Submersion grade (or Resonance or some other attribute/skill) rather than require them to be taken over and over again. Something like:
A/S/D/F Upgrade (Replaces the four separate "[Attribute] Upgrade" echoes): This Echo can be taken up to four times, each time affecting a different Matrix Attribute. The corresponding Matrix Attribute of your Living Persona is raised by 1 point for each Submersion Grade up to 2. (I'd consider boosting the max to 3 or 4, but certain metatypes with certain drugs might be able to achieve some huge ratings. Probably not unbalancing, but it would require further evaluation. The achievable max should be somewhere around 9 or 10 to put it on more or less equal footing with the highest Attribute Array value, but that barrier is already broken with enhanced attribute spells, or any number of Race/augment/drug combinations)
Mind over Machine/MMRI: Level = Submersion Grade, limit 3.
Neurofilter: +1 dice per Submersion Grade, limit 2. Alternatively, make this like a Hardening Module with boxes=Resonance (or SG), Max=5.
Resonance [Program]: As mentioned above.
Mathemagics: Also increases the dice pool. Though there are much better suggestions elsewhere in this thread.

Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Herr Brackhaus on <06-12-15/1504:04>
Malevolence
That same concern applies to Initiation Grade and the metamagics that use it as a basis for X, yet there are no such limitations on them...
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Miri on <06-12-15/1738:34>
Malevolence
That same concern applies to Initiation Grade and the metamagics that use it as a basis for X, yet there are no such limitations on them...

Yeah but its MAGIC.. (almost) anything is possible with magic.

/s
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Malevolence on <06-12-15/1744:55>
I'm not saying that everything that is tied to Res/Mag or Initiation/Submersion Grade needs to be capped, I'm simply cautioning that some things should be bounded. Dice pool bonuses from metamagics tend to be limited to very limited tests such as hiding your signature, with the exception of (Adept) Centering which is potentially one of the best metamagics there is for that reason, though Drain is something unique to Awakened that mundane characters don't have to deal with. Shielding is also an obvious exception, but since it isn't applied to every roll it isn't quite as simple as calling it a dice pool bonus. None of the metamagics apply to dice pools or attributes that allow a mage to be better than a mundane at mundane things. For the technomancer you have to be wary of an Echo providing a bonus that makes her better than a decker at things that both can do - slightly better is fine, but significantly better without bound is not.


So, allowing Echoes to increase Matrix attributes is fine, but it needs to be bounded similar to how Physical and Mental attributes are.


With those caveats in mind, lets look at metamagics tied to Initiatiate Grade and/or Magic:


(Adept) Centering: Affects dice pool, no limit. This is the big exception which is not a significant problem as it allows the mage to overcome a weakness that is unique to Awakened, not provide a larger dice pool for something that Mundanes can do. Also, it is needed in order for a mage to be able to keep up with the increasing drain from more powerful spells, which are part of their advancement (the higher your Magic, the more powerful spells you can cast, incurring more drain).
Fixation/Masking: adds to dice pool, no limit. This again allows the mage to overcome a weakness that is specific to them and only affects other mages (or other astral denizens). It does not provide them a notable advantage over mundanes.
Spell Shaping: Tied to Magic Rating, and applies a -1 penalty to casting pool for each meter of change. In all, this could probably be a base mechanic and not be unbalanced due to the high cost incurred when using it.
Infusion: Tied to initiate grade and magic, no limit. The drain cost and GM selected power point loss balance this quite nicely, however.
Shielding: Affects dice pool, no limit. This is just plain good, but again only affects other mages/astral entities. It does not help the mage at all against mundanes.
QI sculpt: tied to initiate grade, no limit. A somewhat unique case, but it doesn't add power - it basically allows a Decker like swapping of points.
Air Walking: not a dice pool, but an effect based on initiate grade. Eventually the Adept can jump for kilometers - look out bad guys! Or any other Awakened could just learn Levitate.
Supernatural Prowess: Tied to magic and initiate grade, limited by the usual +4 limit to attribute enhancement.
Apex Predator: in some settings, this could be god-like. 99.9% of Shadowrun is not that setting. It's up to your GM to allow it in the remaining .1%.


...and so on.


All I'm suggesting is that you consider what impact it has tying an Echo's progression to Submersion Grade if the Technomancer is, say, Grade 10. Does it make him unstoppable or unbalancingly powerful? If so, put a cap on it.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Triskavanski on <06-12-15/2129:37>
I'd like to point out that you could end up just taking the program submersion 10 times as of right now and still have the same results.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: PiXeL01 on <06-12-15/2209:27>
But by taking the same echo 10 times you are limiting yourself in way mages do not
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Triskavanski on <06-12-15/2237:15>
Well of course. By being a Technomancer you're limiting yourself in ways that mages are not. A lot of that has to do with how much more a mage can scale what they do select, and how they can use their focus to compensate for area's they are weaker in.

An Adept taking Power point 10 times, has waaay more power increases than 10 programs. A decker could easily run up to 8 programs on his deck. Maybe more? all for the cost of about 2500~3000 nuyen on top of his deck. While running a deck that has 9,9,8,8 attributes. And his skills increased.

In order to submerge 10 times.. Thats 265, and it needs you to increase your Resonance by four assuming you have six points there at the start. Thats about 435 karma total. This is part of why Technomancer bottleneck and can never catch up with the rest of the team. Cause in the process of getting all that karma, the decker has also gotten it to increase his skills, and nuyen to increase his deck.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Malevolence on <06-13-15/0129:21>
I'd like to point out that you could end up just taking the program submersion 10 times as of right now and still have the same results.
You could, but the opportunity cost would be immense - as it stands, you would have spent 435 karma for the ability to run 10 programs. Admittedly something that a decker could not do, but probably not all that useful. It is balanced at the high end by this opportunity cost and the fact that there are a limited number of programs. Also, the current iteration ties you to the programs that you choose - they aren't slots that can be used to run the program of your choice as needed, so it lacks the flexibility that the decker has.


If the proposed change was made to have it be program slots that you could load anything into as desired and it was tied to submersion grade or Resonance, then submerging ten times nets you ten program slots that can run any cyberprogram AND nine other Echoes. The removal of the opportunity cost significantly changes the dynamics. Especially if all of the other echoes are tied to submersion grade, because then you could have:
 1. 10 program slots
 2. +10 to Sleaze
 3. +10 to Firewall
 4. +10 to DP
 5. +10 to Attack
 6. +10 to resist biofeedback
 7. +1d6 to VR initiative
 8. A pain editor
 9. Skinlink
10. Rating 3 control rig


If other Echoes are introduced to grant other advantages a la Neurofilter, they could have +10 Fade resist and/or +10 Matrix Damage resist in place of one or two of the above. Note that the last four were not tied to Grade because that would be ridiculous and I don't think any one is arguing for that. And other than the control rig, it would be meaningless - +10d6 bonus to Hotsim initiative would be cut to +1d6 since the most dice you can roll for initiative is 5d6 and hotsim already gives you 4 of those, and Skinlink and Pain Editor have no rating to tie to SG as they are all or nothing abilities.


In short, all initiation Metamagics that are tied to Magic or Submersion grade have limits where appropriate and Technomancer Echoes should do likewise.


It's also worth noting that I replied to the wrong thread as I meant to post  my initial comment in the Technomancer feedback for a new book (http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=20871.0) thread. I was only looking through the last few posts and saw ShadowMaster's suggested Techno changes and just assumed this was that thread.


Oops.


Carry on.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Zweiblumen on <06-14-15/1928:44>
I just want to point out that to have a submersion rating of 10, you'd need to submerge 6 times, then raise your resonance 4 times and then submerge 4 more times.
That's 435 karma.  Even if you averaged 10 karma a run you're looking at 44 runs and 34 weeks in raising your Resonance.  And you've not spent karma on anything else.  Your skills are still capped at chargen levels etc etc.  You'll be able to withstand an amazing amount of matrix damage, and you'll have a crazy number of programs running, but your die pool will still be comparably low (with god-like limits!).  Yes your data spike is going to do a stupid amount of damage... if you hit with it.  You'd be the ultimate matrix tank.  But you're looking at 16 dice for any of your (max of 6) CFs, and 16 or 17 dice for resisting fade, so you're going to be taking damage from most Forms that have a L+n FV.  You can get some pretty decent Sprites, I'll give you that.  But again, this is 5 years of (game-time, and at least a year of real time) work you've done here.

I think the scaling costs of submerging and raising Resonance do a good job to balance it out.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: schenn on <06-14-15/2307:35>
2. +10 to Sleaze
 3. +10 to Firewall
 4. +10 to DP
 5. +10 to Attack

How about +Submersion Grade in configurable points to your living persona. So, only +10 divided amongst all your atts.  (Meaning that 10 submersions would put your persona on relatively equal ground with a rich decker)

Program slots could be limited by either Resonance or Mental Limit. problem solved.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Triskavanski on <06-14-15/2319:59>
I don't see why Programs should be limited. Its not like the technomancer can just switch them out whilly nilly like. Even if it was program per submerssion grade, you're talking boatloads of karma to get that many programs. A decker being able to switch them out rapidly allows him to adapt to the situation at hand quickly and readily, while technomancers lack that ability.

For the Living persona matrix attribute increases, I'd say run it similar to augmentated stats. You cannot put anymore more than 4 in anyone one stat. That caps out the ability at 16 submersion given you 4 points each. Or could cut that in half, and keep it the max a technomancer can get right now, but reduce the bottleneck.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Elo_Ion on <06-15-15/0620:28>
Commenting on Technomancers and the disappointment with them.....

As this Shadowrun is not a class based game for the most part. Overpowering  specifically to compare with a existing popular skillset, the matrix developers/exploiters.....
Is pointless. I'll remind you that deckers are not actually a character class as anyone can have some skill in it if they want.......

Their powers, Technomancers are developing to replace the matrix itself yet they exist as a byproduct of it.
No justification for the cowboyish decker/hacker as a rival.
 They are a person to envy and pity at the same time. I think their skills narrate that.


Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Csjarrat on <06-15-15/0925:42>
Commenting on Technomancers and the disappointment with them.....

As this Shadowrun is not a class based game for the most part. Overpowering  specifically to compare with a existing popular skillset, the matrix developers/exploiters.....
Is pointless. I'll remind you that deckers are not actually a character class as anyone can have some skill in it if they want.......

Their powers, Technomancers are developing to replace the matrix itself yet they exist as a byproduct of it.
No justification for the cowboyish decker/hacker as a rival.
 They are a person to envy and pity at the same time. I think their skills narrate that.
i think youre kind of missing the point; no one would be moaning if they had loads of flavourful and unique abilities that were useful to the team that also set them aside from deckers, plus were well balanced and the cost/benefit of using those skills was right.
As it is now, they're nigh-on impossible to build flexibly under standard or sum-to-ten because they're dependent on having high stats, skills and resonance to be useful.
Once you've got through chargen, you're then faced with a situation of having dicepools way behind the equivalent decker and punishingly high fading codes to dissuade you from using your only unique abilities.
In tabletop wargaming, we call that poor internal balance, ie, the balance of TMs is such that if you're playing with "winning" in mind, they're a subpar choice compared to their decker rivals (on the proviso of certain measures, like attempting to hack a host etc).
Immediately, the counter argument is that "you should play characters, not classes" and yeah i respect that. plenty of people play that way. Plenty don't though, and want to be able to walk upto a new table and know that they can deal with the matrix without having to have a GM handwaive, houserule or dumb-down matrix opposition just to make their char choice work.
My argument is that the chargen system basically forces you into being a human (d) with resources (e), leaving attributes at A-B and skills/resonance at B-C.
Thats fine if that's what your "character" is, but the second you want to make an Ork Techno, or god forbid, a Troll techno, you're essentially shit out of luck if you want to be half decent at covering the team in the matrix.
Having an entire "class" (yeah i know, we're classless technically, but for TMs and mages, not so much) basically work best as a prop to make a decker better isn't great for motivating people to play them, especially if they're also forced into being humans that start the game pretty much skint and with bare-bones equipment, poor physical stats, low meat-world skill pools and who then take a stack of stun damage everytime they use their powers.

they really need a lick of paint imho, which is a shame because they've got so much potential and such interesting fluff
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Elo_Ion on <06-15-15/1055:35>
I'm going to summarize that your point is you wish that internal balance be addressed.

Your war-gaming reference does make a good arguement. If a player is not able to accomplish their goal them what is the point?

But consider this; the goal of a RPG is not essentially straight foward. Players build characters, DM's build a character list too.The purpose is interaction in the form of role playing first. It's the only way to address that internal balance you mentioned....

But what if the goal changes? Now it's not to destroy the enemy, In this case the 'matrix' how do you handle that?
Guns and armor and earth shaking spells are now the reason of imbalance.
 The players and DM interact in a narrative and hopefully restore the balance.....

From a narrative point of view Techomancers are a manifestation of that roleplaying potential, seeking internal balance through other players and their potential. just like deckers need a hand, damage mages can't do it alone, etc, etc......
 
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Sengir on <06-15-15/1244:09>
From a narrative point of view Techomancers are a manifestation of that roleplaying potential, seeking internal balance through other players and their potential
So stop beating around the bush, what is that great potential of TMs you keep talking about?
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: schenn on <06-15-15/1332:27>
My two cents.

What I've learned after trying and failing to make numerous functional TMs, is that the TM is a summoner class. Not a skill class. "But Schenn", you say. SR is Classless!  Unless you're playing a TM, than in order to complete the tasks you're supposed to be able to handle, you better be 'classed' properly. Otherwise as soon as any enemy decker or black ic on the local corporate host sees you, you're dead.  Get Resonance at an A or B and put the free points into compile and register. When picking skills, pick ONE matrix skill to be your dominant (Hacking, Cybercombat or Computer) the others are minor skills to be developed over time. Teamwork your matrix actions as much as you can with your sprites (remember, services are vague. "Help me retrieve the data from the system" is a single service that would include hacking, searching, combat, etc.)  and when you can't teamwork, leave the work to the relevant sprite, helping with your complex forms (like Diffusion: Firewall).

Remember, Resonance is for both performing technomancer abilities and resisting the high fading from those abilities. It is your most important stat as a TM. Low Resonance doesn't just mean lack of 'power' it also means taking stun damage on every use of a tm power against anything larger than a meta-link (unless the owner is a mage, than a low resonance TM still won't be able to make a dent due to the effect of Willpower on resisting matrix actions). A mages drain resistance comes from their mental stats. So a mage can be weak with magic but still have good mental stats for resisting the drain. They can still cast spells (or overcast even) with a low magic, but TMs shouldn't be utilizing complex forms without high resonance.

Also, if you noticed, Resonance A, Attributes B (or vice versa) means no Troll TMs and very low starting resources consistently. Meaning nearly all TMs end up looking the same. Human, poor, super attributes and weak skills. Meaning RPing a TM isn't as fun because any 'flavor' makes you useless in the role you're 'supposed to be' amazing at when compared to the flexibility of every other character build.


Back to the discussion we were having about submerging...

If you went up against a Mage who had done what the TM example had done (Initiate 10 times and upgrade their special attribute to keep up with its maximum)

+ 10 dice to resisting drain
+ 4 to Magic (meaning maximum force for a spell is 20.  (Lightning bolt : base DV of 20 and an AP of -20. 16 dice to cast vs approx 8 dice to dodge and a total of 1 die to resist damage. The mage needs 10 hits for it to be physical drain, and even then they get +10 dice to resist that drain)
+ 10 to threshold for your magic to be linked to you by assensing
+ ability to hide + 10 dice for hiding your aura
+ 1 configurable sustained spell no longer has negative sustained modifier (quickening)
+ 10 dice for resisting hostile spells.
+ 1 other metamagics which usually gain initiate grade (+10 in this example) in bonus die to their pools.

Notice the lack of limits. Because Karma IS the limit. Just like with technomancers and submerging. Which is why Technomancer echo bonuses should be based off submersion grade (when applicable), not just a +1 to 'something'.

Back to Technomancers:
+10 submersions currently will result in
 
(edit: +4 to Resonance)
+1 Attack
+1 DP
+1 FW
+1 Sleaze
+2 resist biofeedback
+1d6 matrix init
+3 Control Rig

When comparing the effects, it becomes very apparent that the benefits of submerging are not balanced against the cost of submerging. Especially when almost all of those same upgrades can be individually purchased by a decker for a small bit of nuyen, which based off the Missions working for the people conversion rate, works out to about 5-7 karma each, or less than half the cost of submerging.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: noddy_93 on <06-16-15/0511:20>
I totally agree, that echo bonus are often too weak compared to the karma invest.
But i do not see the point that a TM needs Resonance at Priority A. I use skills at A, Attributes at B and Resonance at C, which leaves me low edge to get to RES 6 with a human. Ok other metaraces are more difficult- i agree.
But you get a lot of skills with Prio A. I have all Matrix test with 12 dice and register, compile also at valuae of 6 meaning 12 dice with Resonance 6 also.
Not that bad.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: schenn on <06-16-15/1206:51>
That's what I thought too, I found the TM was still getting owned by rating 6 hosts and commlinks (who get just as much dice as you do for resisting your actions) and that the complex forms were just too useful, even with their high drain, to not take.

For my current working TM:

Resonance A  (Compile, Register, [Cleaner, Diff: Firewall, Editor, Puppeteer, Static Veil and Stitches)
Attributes B   
Skills C
Human D  (Edge +3)
Resources E

There's 10 free skill points for taking Resonance at A vs C.  (Skills A gives 46 skill points, Skills B gives 36, Skills C gives 28)   Skills A + Resonance C == 46 total skill points.  Skills B + Resonance C = 36 total skill points.  Skills C + Resonance A = 38 total skill points.  Skills C + Resonance B = 36 total skill points.   Resonance A also grants 4 additional complex forms over Resonance C (total of 16 karma) so it's a choice of whether you want to start with a little more Skills or more TM complex forms.  Without the CFs, TM's gain no advantages to their hacking like deckers do with programs, so a TM will want to use their CFs to improve their hacking. But that's karma or reduced skills. (Which is fair and balanced imo).

Either way, my point was about the echos and the lack of flexibility available to a TM for role-playing purposes.  The builds almost always look the same at the end of the day because there are only two ways to build a TM.  Resonance A, Attributes B, Skills C, Human D, Resources E   OR    Skills A, Attributes B, Resonance C, Human D, Resources E.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: schenn on <06-16-15/1214:15>
You have compile but what about register?  Don't forget your sprites very existence steadily increases OS unless it's registered or hidden by a Complex Form.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Triskavanski on <06-16-15/2117:32>
I'm going to summarize that your point is you wish that internal balance be addressed.

Your war-gaming reference does make a good arguement. If a player is not able to accomplish their goal them what is the point?

But consider this; the goal of a RPG is not essentially straight foward. Players build characters, DM's build a character list too.The purpose is interaction in the form of role playing first. It's the only way to address that internal balance you mentioned....

But what if the goal changes? Now it's not to destroy the enemy, In this case the 'matrix' how do you handle that?
Guns and armor and earth shaking spells are now the reason of imbalance.
 The players and DM interact in a narrative and hopefully restore the balance.....

From a narrative point of view Techomancers are a manifestation of that roleplaying potential, seeking internal balance through other players and their potential. just like deckers need a hand, damage mages can't do it alone, etc, etc......

The problem is their potential isn't even written in the rules.

Case the Matrix. Be a decker. Or be a mage. Yes a mage. Why a mage? You honestly should see one of the mages I've seen. He does everything. If the goals change, he can switch right along with it.

From a Narrative stand point anything could have roleplaying potential. A watch could be the main character of the entire show, and the savior in the end, that manages to stop a guy from bleeding to death by sacrificing itself.

But technomancers are not that watch. They're that bit of fur in the background during scene 24 that while the scene had a bit of good acting, the fur just continued to sit there. Unless you try really really really hard to get the character going, and come out something like The Room by Tommy Wiso (However you spell his last name)
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: JmOz01 on <06-16-15/2209:36>
I'm going to summarize that your point is you wish that internal balance be addressed.

Your war-gaming reference does make a good arguement. If a player is not able to accomplish their goal them what is the point?

But consider this; the goal of a RPG is not essentially straight foward. Players build characters, DM's build a character list too.The purpose is interaction in the form of role playing first. It's the only way to address that internal balance you mentioned....

But what if the goal changes? Now it's not to destroy the enemy, In this case the 'matrix' how do you handle that?
Guns and armor and earth shaking spells are now the reason of imbalance.
 The players and DM interact in a narrative and hopefully restore the balance.....

From a narrative point of view Techomancers are a manifestation of that roleplaying potential, seeking internal balance through other players and their potential. just like deckers need a hand, damage mages can't do it alone, etc, etc......

The problem is their potential isn't even written in the rules.

Case the Matrix. Be a decker. Or be a mage. Yes a mage. Why a mage? You honestly should see one of the mages I've seen. He does everything. If the goals change, he can switch right along with it.

From a Narrative stand point anything could have roleplaying potential. A watch could be the main character of the entire show, and the savior in the end, that manages to stop a guy from bleeding to death by sacrificing itself.

But technomancers are not that watch. They're that bit of fur in the background during scene 24 that while the scene had a bit of good acting, the fur just continued to sit there. Unless you try really really really hard to get the character going, and come out something like The Room by Tommy Wiso (However you spell his last name)

Think you could post said mage?  Would be really interested in seeing it as I have been trying to do something similar with mixed results...
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: noddy_93 on <06-17-15/0925:42>
Schenn for the Priority A Skills you forgot the 10 Group Points which gives you an additional 6 in a skill group usually three skills all at 6 and 4 in another group an additional three skills.
But it is true you have to buy additional  CF with Karma...
as always.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Elo_Ion on <06-17-15/1736:20>
I'm going to summarize that your point is you wish that internal balance be addressed.

Your war-gaming reference does make a good arguement. If a player is not able to accomplish their goal them what is the point?

But consider this; the goal of a RPG is not essentially straight foward. Players build characters, DM's build a character list too.The purpose is interaction in the form of role playing first. It's the only way to address that internal balance you mentioned....

But what if the goal changes? Now it's not to destroy the enemy, In this case the 'matrix' how do you handle that?
Guns and armor and earth shaking spells are now the reason of imbalance.
 The players and DM interact in a narrative and hopefully restore the balance.....

From a narrative point of view Techomancers are a manifestation of that roleplaying potential, seeking internal balance through other players and their potential. just like deckers need a hand, damage mages can't do it alone, etc, etc......

The problem is their potential isn't even written in the rules.

Case the Matrix. Be a decker. Or be a mage. Yes a mage. Why a mage? You honestly should see one of the mages I've seen. He does everything. If the goals change, he can switch right along with it.

From a Narrative stand point anything could have roleplaying potential. A watch could be the main character of the entire show, and the savior in the end, that manages to stop a guy from bleeding to death by sacrificing itself.

But technomancers are not that watch. They're that bit of fur in the background during scene 24 that while the scene had a bit of good acting, the fur just continued to sit there. Unless you try really really really hard to get the character going, and come out something like The Room by Tommy Wiso (However you spell his last name)

And there is nothing about the skills of a technomancer that won't allow for such potnetial to be fun to play. Even more than that watch......
The problem people accuse of is;
With everything they do well, they do not replace a hacker, who is a major archtype....?
They do not command the matrix with a god-like hand...?

Yet every archtype tends not to have any skill in another's area. They rely on the other characters to do what they do well.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: ScytheKnight on <06-17-15/1820:53>
@Elo_Ion yes, people are complaining that one of the two hacker archetypes is a piss poor hacker... what is so hard to understand about that?
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Triskavanski on <06-18-15/2021:49>
And there is nothing about the skills of a technomancer that won't allow for such potnetial to be fun to play. Even more than that watch......
The problem people accuse of is;
With everything they do well, they do not replace a hacker, who is a major archtype....?
They do not command the matrix with a god-like hand...?

Yet every archtype tends not to have any skill in another's area. They rely on the other characters to do what they do well.

Actually with the importance of having Programs, and Technomancers starting with none, the lose out on a lot of stuff early on, and as you start going into midgame, they're still trying to run behind the Decker in terms of being able to do hacking.

Data searches take Decker's half the time a Technomancer does from day 1. They're capable of Direct connecting to things, from day 1, without a whole big argument over what is written in the book being right, or what is not written in the book being right. (It doesn't say you can.. So you can't vs It doesn't say I can't, so I can.)

Technomancers in some peoples interpretations benefit from absolutely no item that would allow them to be a better hacker with the one thing that actually makes a technomancer worth a damn, The living Persona.

To put this in some other terms using a mage, It would be like saying a mage cannot use any mundane item while using their magic.


And "Archetypes not having another's skills.." Not at all. Lots of the other archetypes blend together different skills. Yes, a Street sam isn't going to have spell casting. But what he has is bullet. And tends to find if bullet doesn't work, use more bullet. Mages on the other hand find if magic doesn't work, use more magic. A decker could easily be a street-sam light, same with a rigger. A street sam could be a rigger or decker. An adept could even do things like a street sam, sans the ware.

Then over there. You have the one archetype with no real physical presence abilities. No magic abilities. Often no social abilities. (They'll never be able to do as well as a social adept, who could use his charms as a weapon) The only thing that they have is some matrix ability. And while They can be some what tough there, they can't really be powerful. It takes a helluva lot of thinking outside the box, especially with how slow matrix is. 
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Sengir on <06-19-15/1412:01>
They do not command the matrix with a god-like hand...?
No, they do not command the matrix at all. Technomancers can kill themselves, that's the extent of their abilities.

OK, given the history of vivisection and other experimentation on TMs the ability to kill oneself might not be completely useless, but it does not exactly make a useful member of the party, either.
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: Herr Brackhaus on <01-21-16/0928:45>
Any chance of getting an updated version of this with proper PDF bookmarks, like what was done with Rigger 5.0?
Title: Re: [SR5] Data Trails?
Post by: dragrubis on <02-04-16/0959:23>
OK, given the history of vivisection and other experimentation on TMs the ability to kill oneself might not be completely useless, but it does not exactly make a useful member of the party, either.
I think the only good way to have a polyvalent Technomancer is by taking a Resonance à minimum building, and making the character a gun kata fanboy who learn during the game how to use her ability...

Half a year ago :
The Technomancer supplement is gonna be a digital release. We're in the planning stage of writing so it might be a few months. We're still dividing the work load and figuring stuff out. Hopefully it won't take us too long to write up.
Any news?

Ok i have some tricks that can be used to "upgrade" some echos : advanced echoes : for example the echos resonance program give one first program when the advanced echoes "(threaded) resonance programS" may give one more program by resonance level/submersion grade and/or permit to thread any of them, is it a good idea?

I think that "Resonance Riding" isn't that poor if you put an advanced echoes on it to upgrade your mixed ability while your resonance progress (having more and more techs ability to use while riding the link)...

Please reinsert old 4th echoes (mesh reality, biowire, acceleration etc...)

And stream and paragon AND Dronomaners.

And one more idea : give samples on different activities with the way of the technomancer and the way of the decker (two young simbling). To explain what is the differences you had in mind.