NEWS

Technomancer feedback for a new book!

  • 542 Replies
  • 183071 Views

Herr Brackhaus

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 3041
« Reply #180 on: <06-26-15/1415:42> »
TMs need a way to mitigate non-distance related noise.
If datajack stacking is allowed, there should be a way for TMs to have similar benefit without prohibitive karma or fading cost.
"Everything has a price."

Also, Fresnel fabric.

dezmont

  • *
  • Chummer
  • **
  • Posts: 190
« Reply #181 on: <06-26-15/1923:48> »
Also datajack stacking is almost certainly not allowed.

Triskavanski

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 2249
« Reply #182 on: <06-26-15/1943:52> »
Well, if you're a Technomancer, according to Xenon.


There was some post however that did say that deckers/riggers could put a lot of datajacks in their head to reduce noice. Gotta find it though..
Concepts are great, but implementation sucks. Why not improve it?

Triskavanski's House Rules

Herr Brackhaus

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 3041
« Reply #183 on: <06-26-15/2037:46> »
Also datajack stacking is almost certainly not allowed.
Aaron, one of the developers, has stated that stacking datajacks is legal. One of the missions NPCs, Quantum Princess, possess two.

UnLimiTeD

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 777
« Reply #184 on: <06-27-15/0749:51> »
That's generally no problem until you get to betaware and decide that ten sounds like a good proposition.
I think they didn't think this through.
Still waiting on a Vector-Thrust Liminal Body.

Triskavanski

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 2249
« Reply #185 on: <06-27-15/1018:16> »
If you can replace the cable with that one that you could control like Myomeric Rope... Tend does sound like a good idea. Cause then you could be medusa.
Concepts are great, but implementation sucks. Why not improve it?

Triskavanski's House Rules

Sterling

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 425
  • Dragged in by the credstick
« Reply #186 on: <06-27-15/1202:34> »
This thread is fascinating, but y'all do realise the OP hasn't been active for three weeks now?
"His name is Sterling. He’s an ex-pat Brit making a living as a fixer and a hacker in Metropole. He’s a rare blend of upstanding and fun...(so) listen to his experience."
>>Data Trails, p.82

Triskavanski

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 2249
« Reply #187 on: <06-27-15/1213:45> »
Active while logged in. And just because she isn't active doesn't mean that other freelancers aren't. I have doubts that one freelancer would write an entire book after all.
Concepts are great, but implementation sucks. Why not improve it?

Triskavanski's House Rules

Dal Thrax

  • *
  • Chummer
  • **
  • Posts: 109
« Reply #188 on: <06-27-15/1317:55> »
Ok lets see: 

Technomaners really need a strategy guide section.  Technomancers a perceived as a weak choice, meaning that many players haven't put much thought into how to play them.  They can have some scarily powerful abilities, but if they aren't up front and obvious they are likely to be overlooked. 

I'd suggest something the summarizes the current complex forms and explains what they can do.  For example, can I use puppeteer to cause the security camera to invite a mark, meaning that I get a mark on the host?  How about using puppeteer to force somebody to take a matrix action on their commlink as their next available action during combat, basically causing them to miss a turn?  Editor allows you to hack files without gaining an overwatch score (or needing a mark on the file).  What exactly does the FAQ form do (can it call up files from the archives)?  Technomaners might have lower matrix stats than most cyberdecks, but there are forms for that.  Right now focused concentration is really good for a technomancer (especially level 2 so that the technomaner can sustain Static Veil on himself).  I think a lot of players need this pointed out.


I get the feeling that technomaners are meant to be a freeform magic system with limits.  A mage casts an illusion with a spell.  A technomaner hacks your commlink to cause your trode net to force your brain to see something that isn't there or hacks your cybereyes to turn the lights out.  Sure a decker might be able to do this, but a technomaner either doesn't get OS for it or uses cleaner and static veil to avoid the consequences.  Players need how this works pointed out to them.  Once you start really looking at resonance forms, you realize that they're Swiss army knives, but most folks just glance at them and move on.  By the time players get done reading what a technomaner can do, they should be ready to turn off the wireless, hardlink in with datacables and a datajack to anything (like a smartlink) that they really need, and run AR on glasses so that they can easily toss them if their link gets hacked.  (Bonus points if there is some way for a technomaners to get at even isolated systems, grappling with the echo that allows you to make a connection by touch and using that connection to insert a sprite into a Sam's ware comes to mind, though how does the sprite get out again is a good question).

Think out the logical implications of technomancer powers.  What happens when a Sprite gets stranded in a piece of gear that is then isolated from the rest of the matrix.  The MMRI echo means that a technomaner can now form a PAN with gear (shouldn't there be another echo that allows a techno to have gear slaved to him the same as a deckers deck).  Can a technomaner set up a device to run agents and have the agents follow directions from the techno even though he isn't hosting them like?

Deckers have a lot of fiddly bits that give minor bonus's.  One reason players feel that deckers are more powerful is that they get choices, where Technomaner get more blanket abilities that add extra dice.  Consider giving folks some of what they want by declaring Virtual Machine a valid echo (that is not active if the technomancer has no programs running on it) and having some shadowtalk to the effect that this is the first echo many technos choose.   

Some form of sustaining focus would be a really big deal for technomaners.  Maybe something justified based on the emulation ability of AIs?

Magic and Technology.  Some of this is basics.  Remember players are not likely to see how things interact between various classes.  For example, alchemical preparations can cast and sustain attribute boosting spells for hours.  This includes the mental stats on which a technomaners living persona is based, meaning that you get both a stat boost and a matrix stat boost.  Sure seems like its worth it to buy a couple preparations before a run, doesn't it?  Also, some information on sprites and spirits.  How does a possessing spirit react to a sprite in the same device?  Is any form of communication possible between a sprite in a drone and  a manifesting spirit?

My 10,000 nuyen question.  Jen the Nosferatu comes across Tron, her technomancer boyfriend, after he has been abducted by insect spirits and subject to the inhabitation power, but before the completion of the merg.  She essence drains him down to zero, forcing the spirit out as the body "dies".  The next night, Tron rises as a Nosferatu, loosing his connection to the resonance.  All Nosferatu awaken as full magicians.  What happens (besides a breakup)?  More bluntly, now that infected are legal PCs, it possible for a technomaner to switch and become a magician during the course of player.  This needs to be addressed.
Warning: most likely posting from a tablet.

Triskavanski

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 2249
« Reply #189 on: <06-27-15/1347:22> »
Well, in the weakness of Technomancers, a lot of it has to do with how they are dedicated to matrix. And the Matrix is the only realm (The other two being Meat and Magic) that one can safely ignore. No, seriously, you could. The only thing that matrix really does for you is give you a few bonus dice until you gotta crack the host. You can't just flip a switch and make that Street sam barreling down on you with his katana just disappear. But you can flip the switch on your commlink to cause exactly the same thing happen to Technomancers.

On the flipside, Technomancers have to expend so much to be decent at the matrix, and their own resonance abilities. Even then though, they suffer issues with the matrix. And then to use their main abilities, they've got to deal with Matrix Meat and Magic. A decker and rigger often times do as well, but a rigger could just turn off all the wireless on his car, directly plug into it and be perfectly fine that way.

But I agree they need something of a stratagy guide and clarification of their abilities and powers and such. I mean could a Corp hire a technomancer, work to get him to submerge and instantly form that one way link with you, so they could track you down? If you use that one complex form that creates noise, does it cause only the device to take matrix actions at  a penalty and not the technomancer who threw it on there in the first place?
Concepts are great, but implementation sucks. Why not improve it?

Triskavanski's House Rules

Finstersang

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 751
« Reply #190 on: <06-28-15/1727:41> »
Ok, time for another mixed bag of bold Proposals ;)

There are two very valid issues about TM playability that need to be adressed:
-   The need for high mental Attributes (esp. for certain metatypes like Orks and Trolls) to function at all.
-   The need for Submersion/ECchoes to get some basic functionalities (Programms, Skinlink, Control Rig…) for many character concepts.

So I brainstormed a little bit to find ways of getting around these problems without going too deep into „errata territory“.

First of all: Why do TMs need these high stats in every Mental Attribute and why is that a problem? Unlike Deckers, they can not reconfigure their Matrix Attributes and they also can not buff them from start with Cyberprogramms. Because of that, if they have a low Mental Attribute (and by „low“, I mean any value below 5-4!), they have a very low limit for every(!) test using the related Matrix Attribute. This means that they will probably fail most of these tests regardless of their skill as long as they don´t break the limit with Edge. For example, without Intuition 5 or higher, a starting TM can not find any exotic piece of data (Threshold 5) in the Matrix. This is a big problem in general, but especially if you want to play a Troll or Ork.

So first, lets think about ways to go around the limit issue. You could think about Qualities, Echoes or CFs that let TMs buff their matrix limits without buffing Matrix Attributes or the Mental Attributes themselfes. You could also think about using the inherent limit for some tests, the mental limit in particular. Something like this Quality here:

Improvised Hack (5 Karma): This Quality must be taken for a certain Matrix Action (other than Control Device) and allows the Hacker to perform the Action with her mental limit instead of the associated matrix attribute as a limit. (Note: The Test only changes the limit. If you use a Data Spike with an Attack Attribute of 2 (or even without an Attack Attribute at all?), the base damage is still 2 (or Zero, if there is no Attack Attribute in the first place).

This is something that would also work nice for Deckers and also some lower-level-Matrix users like Faces or Covert Ops. Mancers would probably use it for Actions like Crack File, allowing them to be decent Data-Stealers without having high Charisma.

But why are we only talking about Mental Attributes here? Does the Resonance only pulse through the TMs brain and nerves and not also through their blood, bones and muscles? Does every Mancer have to „abandon“ his physical body to become a true Master of the Matrix?  What about an Echo like this:

Somatic Resonance (Prerequisite: Skinlink): You have learned to use every part of your body as a conductor for your technomantic Powers. As long as you have established a direct link to a device via Skinlink, you can use your Physical Attributes instead of your Mental Attributes to determine your Living Persona (Body=Firewall, Agility=Sleaze, Reaction = Data Processing, Strength=Attack). This works only for Tests interacting with or defending against devices you touch with the Skinlink.

This would make for an interesting new way to play a Technomancer: The „Technobrute“. As a Troll with this Echo, you could simply stretch out your long Troll Arms for a surveillance camera, a Drone or an enemies Weapon and fry it with your high Strength-based Attack Attribute, probably with scary pulsing veins and trembling muscles (Yeah, you could probably just physically sqeeze it to death as a Troll, but this is much cooler IMO). One could also imagine a high-Agility Covert Ops TM, using direct connections with high Sleaze to open doors and circumvent security devices.

There is just one huge problem with that: You´d still need to undergo Submersion for that, so this concept would not work from start, just like playing a TM as a Rigger.  This brings me to another topic: Streams and Paragons.

In SR4, Streams and Paragons worked just like Magical Traditions and Mentor Spirits: Resonance Streams allowed you to tweak the kind of Sprites you were able to compile (there were more than 5, of course) and the Mental Attribute used to resist Fading. Paragons, at the same cost of a Mentor Spirit, granted bonus dice on certain test (sometimes even outside the Matrix, like Idoru), with an additional psychological tick or whim for balance and flavour.

And this is nice. Really, you could keep it that way and everyone would be happy. But you could also go further and use these mechanics to really tweak the TMs concept. Instead of just swapping sprites and the Fading Attribute, you could also switch the way Mental Attributes are used to determine the Living Persona, or even grant Echoes and bonuses from start, balancing them by denying other features, weaknesses or by additional karma costs.

Some examples for new Streams in this fashion:

Somathematicians: These TMs are all about physical interaction, relying on their whole Body instead of their (sometimes pretty weak) Mind. You start with Skinlink and Somatic Resonance. However, whenever you take more than 1 Point of Matrix damage, the Damage is split between your Stun and and your Physical Monitor.

Dronomancers: This is the Stream for the typical Techno-Rigger. You start with the MMRI Echoe. Also, your Machine Sprites gain the Ability to jump into Drones with a Komplex Action (3 Marks needed), supplanting the native Pilot Programm. The Pilot Rating is equal to the Level of the Machine Sprite. However, Dronomancers can only compile Machine Sprites. (They can probably learn to compile additional sprites, but they need to use/waste Echoes for that).

Dreamscapers: These often very powerfull TMs perceive the Matrix as a Dreamworld. Dreamscapers are more reliant on their subconsciousness when using their Powers, so they use Intuition+Resonance instead of Willpower+Resonance to Resist Fading. They also start with two Echoes of their choice and a free Hitchhiker Programm to drag allies along in their Dreamworlds, and they get the +2 Bonus from Hot Sim VR on their Resonance Skill Checks as well.  When entering a Foundation, there is a much higher chance that the Foundation´s Paradigma is something the Dreamscaper can relate to. When unconscious or in REM-Sleep, Dreamscapers can still wander and hack the VR. (Probably a good candidate for an Echo?) However, when their Stun Monitor is filled, Matrix damage can overflow into physical Damage. But the biggest weakness of the Dreamscapers: They can´t percieve the Matrix in AR (at least not with their living Persona. However, the Matrix looks warped and false to them when percieved through AR Glasses and the like), and if they want to „wake up“ from VR, they need a Komplex Action and a Willpower+Intuition (3) Test, even if they are not link-logged.

These are three examples for „exotic“ TM Streams, but you could still add streams with less invasive changes in game mechanics (a.k.a Attribute and Sprite optimisation).  The Resonance Stream of a TM should describe how her powers and her own "version" of the matrix feel and look like. There could be a Stream that makes the TM percieve the Matrix more as the endless lines of ones and zeroes below the code, or a Stream where everything is about language and grammar (After all, Informatics are also rooted in linguistics) or even "religious" Streams where the Matrix seems as filled with Omens, Prophecies, Miracles ans Saints (In the german SR lore, there is a group of AI-hunting Christian Techno-Inquisitors in Westphalia Free-State, for example).

Just as with the Streams, Paragons could be used to grant these kind Echoes and bonuses from the start, probably with a smaller scope. And they can also add a lot of Fluff!
« Last Edit: <06-29-15/0616:54> by Finstersang »

Darzil

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 633
« Reply #191 on: <06-29-15/0559:20> »
First of all: Why do TMs need these high stats in every Mental Attribute and why is that a problem? Unlike Deckers, they can not reconfigure their Matrix Attributes and they also can not buff them from start with Cyberprogramms.

I suspect the design was that they could use Infusion of X to address that issue. The issue with that is they don't get the same sort of tools a Mage gets to reduce fading and avoid sustaining penalties, and the fading values are high.

Herr Brackhaus

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 3041
« Reply #192 on: <06-29-15/0705:18> »
Yeah, sustaining foci equivalent would allow technomancers to actually rely on Infusion of X to improve their attributes for the task at hand, while reagent equivalent would allow them to actually thread them on a consistent basis without fear of knocking themselves out. Compared to the Magician's ability to improve an attribute for all intents and purposes for Force - 3 Drain just goes to show how skewed the complex form is in my opinion; less utility for more cost seems like an odd paradigm.

The sample character technomancer, if one ignores the fact that he doesn't even have Infusion of X, would roll Software 4 + Resonance 5 [Level] to use Infusion of A/S/D/F. At minimum, he'd need to thread at Level 4/6/5/5 with a Fade resist of Resonance 5 + Willpower 5 against Fade Values of 5/7/6/6, respectively.

The sample combat mage character, if one also ignores the fact that he doesn't have any of the Increase Attribute spells needed, would roll Spellcasting 5 + Magic 6 [Force] to use Increase W/L/I/C. To affect the above technomancer he would need to at the very least cast at Force 4/6/5/5 with a Drain resist of Logic 5 + Willpower 4 against Drain Values of 2/3/2/2, respectively.

This to my mind perfectly illustrates how a technomancer is more limited in the use of his or her powers but is somehow required to pay more for using them. I also believe that a new book won't fix this basic inconsistency, unless the underlying issues are addressed through errata. No matter how many shiny new toys they get they will remain inherently limited because of these basic imbalances, and that is something I think is a shame indeed.

Marcus

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 2802
  • Success always demands a greater effort.
« Reply #193 on: <06-29-15/1719:03> »


This to my mind perfectly illustrates how a technomancer is more limited in the use of his or her powers but is somehow required to pay more for using them. I also believe that a new book won't fix this basic inconsistency, unless the underlying issues are addressed through errata. No matter how many shiny new toys they get they will remain inherently limited because of these basic imbalances, and that is something I think is a shame indeed.

In many ways yes, and some very specific system ways no. Their increasers are stronger relative to what they do then their magic counter parts, (IE one hit is +1 stat instead of 2 hits). I'm not saying errata won't be necessary to fix it, but given how they keep trying to address technos I don't see that happening, the weakness primary lies within CFs, so fixing CFs will i think be the fastest way to fix the issue, there is the secondary problem of starting techno's sucking, but we have look at that about every way we can imo, so it will be fixed or it won't. I think we pasted the point of useful feedback a while back, but I'm happy to see the community excited about something.
*Play-by-Post color guide*
Thinking
com
speaking

Miri

  • *
  • Newb
  • *
  • Posts: 78
« Reply #194 on: <06-29-15/1820:46> »


This to my mind perfectly illustrates how a technomancer is more limited in the use of his or her powers but is somehow required to pay more for using them. I also believe that a new book won't fix this basic inconsistency, unless the underlying issues are addressed through errata. No matter how many shiny new toys they get they will remain inherently limited because of these basic imbalances, and that is something I think is a shame indeed.

In many ways yes, and some very specific system ways no. Their increasers are stronger relative to what they do then their magic counter parts, (IE one hit is +1 stat instead of 2 hits). I'm not saying errata won't be necessary to fix it, but given how they keep trying to address technos I don't see that happening, the weakness primary lies within CFs, so fixing CFs will i think be the fastest way to fix the issue, there is the secondary problem of starting techno's sucking, but we have look at that about every way we can imo, so it will be fixed or it won't. I think we pasted the point of useful feedback a while back, but I'm happy to see the community excited about something.

Core Page 288

The Attribute is increased by an amount equal to the hits
scored, up to the target’s augmented maximum (any hits
that would increase the Attribute beyond its augmented
maximum are ignored). Each Attribute can only be affected
by a single Increase Attribute spell at a time.

So no.. it is an even boost.  Just the Technomancer has to pay more for it in terms of Fade and potential sustaining penalties.