[Hobbes]

Hi, read through this and agree to some degree with most of what was stated.

My own take on Technomancers is here http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=20066.msg359187#msg359187

To sum up in one word, Petnomancer.  I'd like to see the following:

1.  Sprites abilities more defined.  Especially teamwork rules and Sprites. 
2.  Care and feeding of Sprites during down time simplified. 
3.  A few words on the RAI of the Diagnostics power.  Does it last forever?  RAW it just goes until you give the Sprite a new order, aka, forever.  Also a bit of clarification on some of the things Diagnostics does and doesn't work on.  Guidelines really.  As it turns out, mechanically, the Diagnostics power is the largest boost Technomancer bring to the group. 
4.  I'd really like to see a Technomancer walk out of Chargen with 14+ dice pools in hacking skills similar to what a Decker can achive without resorting to being a pet class.  Mechanically tricky to do without overpowering the pet class, so some kind of trade off between Compiling and Hacking. 

People like pet classes and Technomancers are a fun way to do that.  But, Technomancers also occupy a thematic role of being magical hackers, and aren't always surrounded by a host of little helpers.  Technomancers need to be, out of chargen, mechanically comparable to Deckers without having to manage a small marching band.  To say nothing of Technomancer "first run blues" since they need a week of down time to get a stack of Sprites built up.

Note, comparable, not Identical. 

[DeathStrobe]

In the last case, it's important to know that Fading and sustaining penalties aren't very substantial costs.  Threading a Complex Form to mimic a smartlink is a great idea, except when you get into the math of it.  First off, you suggested that it gets a flat +1 bonus to dice pool and accuracy per hit.  Assuming the Level is still a limit, that's still a LOT of potential hits.  It's too powerful.  And doing a straight mimic of the functionality of a smartlink is immediately offset by the penalty you get from sustaining the complex form.

I don't want this smartlink CF to increase accuracy at all, that should still be a limiting factor. But as many bonus die as you can get hits on.

It can not be both too powerful and also having to sustain it making it too weak. I thought you didn't take the sustaining penalty if you use actions that specifically uses the CF, but looking through core, that is not the case. That means you'll need to cast at force 4 and get 4 hits to even out with the cyber smartlink. Fade values will need to take that into account. So, since 4 is the default, we want that to be easy to soak fading, meaning a level - 2 fade looks like the answer.

But looking at an equivalent spell mages get, Analyze Device and Increase Attribute, their drain values are Force -3. Those are actually far more powerful and versatile than the Smartlink CF, so we should reduce the smartlink CF more,  level - 4 or 5 seems fair.

Now lets just keep with comparing it to Analyze Device, since this will be kind of similar. The mage needs to deal with object resistance, which is probably 15 dice. The TM will need to deal with hacking the device. The TM rolls software + Resonance [level] vs Will power + firewall.

A hyper specialized mage casts Analyze Device on a smartgun. Rolla 6 spellcasting + 6 magic + 2 specialization + 2 power focus + 2 mentor spirit [5 Force] vs 15 dice. And gets 1 net hit on average. He needs to soak 2 drain and on average passes that.

Our hyper specialized TM casts smartlink CF on a smartgun. Rolls 6 Software + 6 resonance + 2 specialization (and currently doesn't have any other bonuses) [5 level] vs 5 wil + 6 firewall. On average the TM will get 2 hits. This is a wash since sustaining costs the TM 2 dice.

Okay, so its not very viable at chargen. But with the skinlink echo, the TM won't have to worry about fighting his master's firewall, and with more resonance and software skill he'll be able to start to get more net hits to make it more worth wild.

[Marcus]

The question of how much to add per hit is one that can be solved by play testing, +1 per hit may be to strong, or it may not.  Consider that at +1 per hit you still not looking at that many, there will be limit on the power, and there will be only so many dice in the test, and on top of that skills are max at 12 or 13 with 14 pt quality.  even on the high end say around 20  which isn't a very likely number given the state of starting techno's your basically looking at 6-7 hits, if you assume the techno has pistol skill 6; skill max is still 12, so now you have hit max skill, plus 2-3 agil, and +2 from specialization and you looking at 17 dice. That just isn't a big deal, in terms of sr combat, and that is a very optimistic assumption. The much more likely 12-14 in the pool would net you 3-4 dice, and you'll be looking at something like 14 dice, which is an ok 2nd tier pool.

The accuracy question is simply silly, your not going to push a pool that's going to beat current accuracy let alone augmented accuracy. You could let it augment accuracy all day and it wouldn't matter. 

[firebug]

One bonus die per hit isn't many?  Sure, until you have using Edge to get seven hits, using it with their Machine Sprite-boosted shotgun and ending up with some 24 dice.  You have to consider Edge being used when you're thinking about balance.  Especially when something can be sustained, meaning you only need to use the Edge once.

I don't think TMs need all of this "let them do a bunch of other roles" stuff...  I just want them to be where they were in 4th, which is "masters of the matrix, but fish out of water in meatspace".  A trade-off that gave them a clear role.  I don't want them to necessarily be simply better than deckers in every way...  But right now, it is almost always the opposite, and they feel like they lack any real niche when they can't rig, can't be the group's matrix specialist, and still have all the drawbacks as if they were as powerful as they should be.

[Marcus]

If you dropped 2 edge and only managed 24 dice you didn't do very well, Firebug.

[Herr Brackhaus]

I don't think TMs need all of this "let them do a bunch of other roles" stuff...  I just want them to be where they were in 4th, which is "masters of the matrix, but fish out of water in meatspace".  A trade-off that gave them a clear role.  I don't want them to necessarily be simply better than deckers in every way...  But right now, it is almost always the opposite, and they feel like they lack any real niche when they can't rig, can't be the group's matrix specialist, and still have all the drawbacks as if they were as powerful as they should be.

This. I support this 100%.

[Triskavanski]

One bonus die per hit isn't many?  Sure, until you have using Edge to get seven hits, using it with their Machine Sprite-boosted shotgun and ending up with some 24 dice.  You have to consider Edge being used when you're thinking about balance.  Especially when something can be sustained, meaning you only need to use the Edge once.

I don't think TMs need all of this "let them do a bunch of other roles" stuff...  I just want them to be where they were in 4th, which is "masters of the matrix, but fish out of water in meatspace".  A trade-off that gave them a clear role.  I don't want them to necessarily be simply better than deckers in every way...  But right now, it is almost always the opposite, and they feel like they lack any real niche when they can't rig, can't be the group's matrix specialist, and still have all the drawbacks as if they were as powerful as they should be.

Masters of the Matrix. Not Masters of the VR. There is quite a big difference between the two areas. Perhaps your technomancer might only be good when he's in VR. Other technomancers are good when they are in AR. Both are using the matrix, both are mastering it. Just how they use the Matrix is different.

With the "No man in the Van" ideology that a lot of things are trying to move towards, A technomancer will eventually have to leave the van and join the rest of the group. Having Complex forms, Sprites and other things that use the matrix to boost the Technomancer, like the one they're talking about with the CF of getting a Smartlink implant effect, something that relies on heavy use of the matrix, doesn't make a Technomancer into a street sam. Not in the slightest. It just makes the technomancer good at using the matrix to use the gun. Using a massive amount of cybernetics, now that makes a Technomancer into a street sam.

Even in forth the Smartlink Cf existed. Personally, I'd actually put the Smartlink's effects in the Resonance Program Echo (But only after some of the changes to this echo to make it more than just getting 250 nuyen of thing for 26000+ nuyen worth of karma)

Forth even had a few other things that allowed a Technomancer to bring the effects of the Matrix into the meat space, such as the Skillwire echos and the like.



The Matrix is not something in a small box, contained in the basement of the Technomancer's mother, that connects to other small boxes in other basements and such. The Matrix is everywhere. It surrounds us. Binds us. Connects us. Technomancers do not exist just in VR. The Matrix does not exist just in VR. Its seems to be a common misconception that VR is the only place Technomancers and the Matrix interact, as people tend to forget that Technomancers have AR.

The Matrix penetrates  just about every aspect of life in the sixth world. Sure, there are some areas on the fringes of society that don't have matrix yet. But in the civilized worlds, its there. Watching us.

[Marcus]

Look it's skill dice, not bonus dice, so even if you edge the casting roll your still capped at 12 or 13 skill. Edge use doesn't break skill  cap.
Which means your never going to get that much benefit from it. The two cases I put forward thread with 20 (which is a well advancd techno), edge the roll to 24 (4 edge), now get 8 hits, 6+8 is 14. So he's getting 12 skill dice, 2 wasted hits. He edges the gun roll goes from 17 to 21 for one shot. Well he spent 2 edge and gained 4 dice. I'm really not impressed. If the guy was edge 6 he would only gained 6 dice, and hit 23 dice for 1 shot. So for his trouble he gets to shoot like a 1st tier combatant for 1 shot, which still isn't even beginning to push the envelop of ranged combatants.

In the more Average case, he edges the casting pull going from 14 to 18, and gets 6 hits, he gets 6 gun skill 6 skill form this, and +2 spec he now shoots at 16 spends another edge goes to 20. He gained a lot more from edging the casting roll, but was still only at 16 dice, not very impressive.

So play all the games with Edge you like it's not going to unbalance this concept.

[DeathStrobe]

I'd also like to see a jump-in complex form. Give dronomancers some options at chargen. And like my proposed smartlink CF, it gives the jumped-in TM bonus dice to all actions to all drone tests.

You might think this would be even more unbalanced than the smartlink CF, but keep in mind that drones are made of paper, biofeedback on the drone taking damage, sustain penalties and fading cost. Increasing dice pools on all drone tests is very powerful but drones have crappy limits without a Control Rig.

[Hobbes]

Alright, I guess I'll share then.

I want a smartlink complex form. You thread it on to a smartgun and it doesn't just give you all the bonuses of smartlink, it gives you every net hit as a +die to shooting with the smartgun. Basically acting as a super smartlink. It's balanced by fading and by needing to sustain it, but can allow a TM to toss more dice than a Street Sam at shooting tests.

I want an empathy complex form. Same basic premises, but not on a device. Basically the TM emulates or connects to a bunch of facial recognition services through resonance and every net hits gives the TM +die to all social tests. Or possibly make the complex form based off of the skill.

Would probably make more sense to have a skillsoft complex form, that can be used with any skill in the game. Once again balanced by fade and sustaining, but with enough hits and with the smartlink CF, a TM can instantly become a Street Sam.

Machine Sprite Diagnostic power does the Smartgun bit easy, the Social bit with the right armor , and the list of skills in this game that have + dice pool gear has to cover most skills.

Just giving Technomancer's "MOAR DICE4ALLTHEFINGS!!!" probably isn't the right answer unless you build in some kind of stacking limitation. 

[Hobbes]

I'd also like to see a jump-in complex form. Give dronomancers some options at chargen. And like my proposed smartlink CF, it gives the jumped-in TM bonus dice to all actions to all drone tests.

You might think this would be even more unbalanced than the smartlink CF, but keep in mind that drones are made of paper, biofeedback on the drone taking damage, sustain penalties and fading cost. Increasing dice pools on all drone tests is very powerful but drones have crappy limits without a Control Rig.

Again, Machine Sprite, Diagnostics = Bonus dice.  Especially on something as obviously techno as a Drone.   

I do like the idea of a Dronomancer Complex Form, or Forms even.  And maybe a specialized kind of Sprite with some Drone specific powers, as it is right now a TM is a terrible rigger at chargen and eventually spends a few dozen Karma to someday become a bad one. 

[Triskavanski]

I agree, the Machine Sprite is pretty amazing in what it can do to help out the Technomancer with the right piece of gear, they can get a bonus on almost any skill.

The biggest problem with it, ultimately, is just how quick GMs are to deny the use of the machine sprite to anything but hardware tests to repair the object and sometimes not even that. Perhaps in the Technomancer book here, if they went over Technomancer tactics and strategies?

[DeathStrobe]

Diagnostics doesn't give you smartlink and it can't allow you to jump-in. Making a complex form to handle these tasks gives them a powerful and necessary niche for TMs.

Yes, +dice is boring, but the entire game revolves around that. Its not even overpowered. You make it sound like TMs are already going to step all over the physical combatants if they're allowed to have as many dice as them without any of the other benefits, like high str to stack armor, high dodge, and high meat world initiative.

Okay, here. How balanced is it that a decker can cut his arm off and get a fully custom cyber arm with 9 agi? Are we to assume that if a TM is able to keep up with a decker they also need to cyber up and take a hit to resonance just to be able to shoot a gun? There aren't enough attribute points and skill points for TMs to make good physical combatants. To give them tools to help even the odds isn't unbalanced, but it does give them more options. Which TMs desperately need.

[Novocrane]

Diagnostics doesn't give you smartlink and it can't allow you to jump-in. Making a complex form to handle these tasks gives them a powerful and necessary niche for TMs.

I'm not convinced we need a jump-in CF. Yes, something is needed, but I'm half expecting the answer there to be streams.
IE;- for streams to both limit CFs / echoes / widgets / other and open up advanced options. Possibly for something akin to Beast's Way or Spiritual Way for adepts, where you would gain a mentor spirit at the same time - but with a selection of 'favoured' echoes per stream instead.

[Hobbes]

Diagnostics doesn't give you smartlink and it can't allow you to jump-in. Making a complex form to handle these tasks gives them a powerful and necessary niche for TMs.

Yes, +dice is boring, but the entire game revolves around that. Its not even overpowered. You make it sound like TMs are already going to step all over the physical combatants if they're allowed to have as many dice as them without any of the other benefits, like high str to stack armor, high dodge, and high meat world initiative.

Okay, here. How balanced is it that a decker can cut his arm off and get a fully custom cyber arm with 9 agi? Are we to assume that if a TM is able to keep up with a decker they also need to cyber up and take a hit to resonance just to be able to shoot a gun? There aren't enough attribute points and skill points for TMs to make good physical combatants. To give them tools to help even the odds isn't unbalanced, but it does give them more options. Which TMs desperately need.

Diagnostic's doesn't give you a Smart Link, Smart Link gives you a Smart Link and Diagnostics gives you the bonus dice.  The Cyber version of Smart link gives you one more dice.  Everything else you get from glasses or whatever. 

Decker...Cyberarm... comes down to stats.  Technomancer vs any other specialist is usually short stats.  Technomancers pay a higher price for Augments, and don't have a direct boost like the Magically active characters.  A Technmancer can have just as many dice, qualities, and non-cyber gear as any other character though.  The Diagnostics power will pull a Technomancer to equalish in many cases.  Not to specialized Adept levels but certainly equal to Decker with an SMG.   

The Technomancer's main issue in the meat world, as was stated in this thread, is no initiative boost.  Lightning Reflexes I guess but those have a high opportunity cost. 

I have no complaint about + dice being boring.  I don't find + dice boring.  + dice on top of + dice = potential balance issue.  Play around with a 4 Resonance TM, with 2 levels Synaptic Booster, another point of Augments, and blow off all the hacking skills.  Build like a firearms Adept, except with Machine Sprites and get back to me at how Technomancer's need more dice.  If you blow off the hacking stuff and pile on Combat skills and stats you can build an effective little Combat character.  Weird, but effective.  You're not as good at any one thing as a specialist in that thing, but anything that has a bonus from Gear you've got a nice little pool of dice to throw.