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Reduce Filler in 6th Edition

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Ghost Rigger

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« Reply #45 on: <03-02-17/2029:19> »
Well, sorry your favorite cyberware got nerfed, but I'm looking at Augmentation right now and honestly it had that nerf coming.  Comapred to 4e wired reflexes, 4 move-by-wire had superior mechanical benefits, doubled as a skillwire and was inherently more invasive to the body. I don't know whether or not it was balanced in terms of nuyen, but there was no way those two 'wares should've cost the same essence.
After all you don't send an electrician to fix your leaking toilet.

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Shadowjack

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« Reply #46 on: <03-02-17/2111:36> »
Nuyen has always been a balancing point for gear though, it's just part of Shadowrun. All I can say was that the nerf was very disappointing for me. That version of Move-by-wire was one of my favorite additions to the game gear-wise and in 5E they basically took it away.
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Mystic

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« Reply #47 on: <03-02-17/2115:12> »
I for one am willing to aid in the creation of SR6. If nothing else, I can help make sure lore remain consistent, unless there is a logical decision to retcon something, and supply fluff and filler. I love Shadowrun, even more than D&D (Forgive me Gary Gygax, for I have sinned!). I want to see it continue far into the future so that one day my own children can enjoy it (once they're old enough).

I'm willing to help make sure that happens.

I don't know how much longer until the powers that be decide it's time for SR6, but if you're serious, contact Jason Hardy and try and get into the freelancer pool. All opinions aside, he's still the one in charge and the best place to effect change in the game is from within.

My two cents and friendly advice.
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Ghost Rigger

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« Reply #48 on: <03-02-17/2218:26> »
Nuyen has always been a balancing point for gear though, it's just part of Shadowrun. All I can say was that the nerf was very disappointing for me. That version of Move-by-wire was one of my favorite additions to the game gear-wise and in 5E they basically took it away.
Essence cost is also a balancing point, though. If nuyen were the sole balancing point, then we wouldn't have bioware equivalents of certain cyberware, because why would you pay 285,000 nuyen for Synaptic Booster 3 when Wired Reflexes 3 only costs 217,000 nuyen and stacks with Reaction Enhancers?

There's also the fluff concerning essence loss; my understanding is that the essence loss caused by any given implant is a product of 3 things: how invasive it is (which is why bioware always costs less essence than a piece of cyberware that does the exact same thing and why the different grades of ware are a thing), how physically unlike your original body it is (which also contributes to the bioware vs cyberware situation) and how much it increases your abilities (which is why the benefit:essence loss ratio is constant as you increase level the for most 'wares, and also why the different bone lacings cost different essence loss).  4e Move-By-Wire was bigger in all those ways than 4e Wired Reflexes, so the idea that they cost the same essence loss seems quite silly to me.
After all you don't send an electrician to fix your leaking toilet.

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Shadowjack

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« Reply #49 on: <03-02-17/2231:56> »
I'm about to go to sleep so I don't feel like checking my books but I'm not sure I see a problem with a similar but superior piece of ware having the same essence cost and an increased nuyen cost. You're paying more to get more.
Show me your wallet and I'll show you a man with 20 fingers.

adzling

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« Reply #50 on: <03-02-17/2350:32> »
IMHO the crunchbooks have been overrun with fluff and while fluff is very important to crunch books they should not dominate.

+. as many have said, the editing is horrifically bad both for content and layout reasons.

it makes it supremely difficult to find something during a game, which should be a priority for any, you know, rule book.

which is a shame because srun has some of the best fluff and some of the most detailed rules and options around.....all terribly implemented by tossing it into a blender without a competent editing process.

Trillinon

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« Reply #51 on: <03-03-17/0048:25> »
@Shadowjack, you mentioned being concerned about picking up Rigger 5.0 due to your problems with Chrome Flesh. You should. While, yes, there's a high level of fluff, it works better. Probably because the book reads far more like a catalog.

Also, Chrome Flesh's biggest problem isn't the blending of crunch and fluff. It's the lack of a real table of contents and super-vague chapter titles (a serious problem with the entire edition).

Here's the SR5 table of contents (From DriveThruRPG):

INTRODUCTION . . . 3
MY BROTHERíS KEEPER  . . . 4
CLUSTERF*CKED  . . . 8
FIXING WHATíS BROKE . . . 26
THE ENHANCED LIFE 54
SHINY: LATEST IN CHROME . . . 62
THE BODY REDEFINED . . . 94
STEELING THE FUTURE  . . . 126
HACKING THE METAHUMAN CODE  . . . 130
QUICK & DIRTY AUGMENTATIONS  . . . 168
THE MURKY FUTURE  . . . 194
COMPILED AUGMENTATION TABLES   . . . 222

Now, compare that to the Table of Contents from Augmentation

The SR4 book is simply much more useful. They both cover the same topics. Both have plenty of setting material and fluff. But the SR5 book resembles a novel, whereas the SR4 book is a tool for playing the game.

SR5 books are lavish, beautiful, and clearly created by people who love the setting. But the team needs to have someone who is ruthless about usability, and they should be in charge of the final product.

Senko

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« Reply #52 on: <03-03-17/0518:36> »
Even the fluff isn't that well edited in some cases pictures showing a layout that doesn't actually match the layout of the ship  in question, repeated pictures for different creatures.

Ghost Rigger

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« Reply #53 on: <03-03-17/0928:46> »
I'm about to go to sleep so I don't feel like checking my books but I'm not sure I see a problem with a similar but superior piece of ware having the same essence cost and an increased nuyen cost. You're paying more to get more.
You pay for your 'wares with your soul as well as your nuyen though. And by soul I of course mean Essence. That's why the different grades of ware exist, and why bioware that's more expensive than cyberware with the same function is a thing.
After all you don't send an electrician to fix your leaking toilet.

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Rosa

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« Reply #54 on: <03-03-17/0942:32> »
While you can always debate the ratio of fluff to crunch, the fluff does play an important role in world building and in introducing the game world to new players. 

Also CGL did not come up with the structure with having a magic book, a gear book, an augmentation book, a matrix book, a critter book  and a rigger book. ..etc. that structure has existed at least since 3rd edition and probably longer. Part of the reason is of course to sell books yes, but it is equally because of the staggering amount of content in SR,  which only grows edition by edition.

As several people have already pointed out 4th edition were simply superior in every way when it came to layout and structuring the books, the difference between reading for example street magic and reading street Grimoire is painful, and the fact that several traditional chapters were cut from street Grimoire is just another example of the poor editing that has plagued 5th edition.

So my wish for 6th edition is simply, look to 4th edition for editing choices and I'll gladly buy the books.

RowanTheFox

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« Reply #55 on: <03-03-17/1228:04> »
I for one am willing to aid in the creation of SR6. If nothing else, I can help make sure lore remain consistent, unless there is a logical decision to retcon something, and supply fluff and filler. I love Shadowrun, even more than D&D (Forgive me Gary Gygax, for I have sinned!). I want to see it continue far into the future so that one day my own children can enjoy it (once they're old enough).

I'm willing to help make sure that happens.

I don't know how much longer until the powers that be decide it's time for SR6, but if you're serious, contact Jason Hardy and try and get into the freelancer pool. All opinions aside, he's still the one in charge and the best place to effect change in the game is from within.

My two cents and friendly advice.

Out of work, ATM, so I could definitely use a little side cash, even if it's just enough to pad my account a touch. I'll give him a holler and see how far I get.
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adzling

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« Reply #56 on: <03-03-17/1833:21> »
The SR4 book is simply much more useful. They both cover the same topics. Both have plenty of setting material and fluff. But the SR5 book resembles a novel, whereas the SR4 book is a tool for playing the game.

SR5 books are lavish, beautiful, and clearly created by people who love the setting. But the team needs to have someone who is ruthless about usability, and they should be in charge of the final product.

This is perhaps the most concise and truest critique of 5e.

The person / people in charge of 5e are missing the entire point of what a rule book / system is meant to do and what their purpose is.

Sipowitz

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« Reply #57 on: <03-05-17/1054:04> »
Also CGL did not come up with the structure with having a magic book, a gear book, an augmentation book, a matrix book, a critter book  and a rigger book. ..etc. that structure has existed at least since 3rd edition and probably longer. Part of the reason is of course to sell books yes, but it is equally because of the staggering amount of content in SR,  which only grows edition by edition.
Tradition should never be used as justification.

To me you know there is a problem when the freelancers get all giddy with each other over/about the fluff.  You can really get the impression that the rules are way down the priority list compared to who's mary sues are present.
« Last Edit: <03-05-17/1057:10> by Sipowitz »

Ghost Rigger

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« Reply #58 on: <03-05-17/1110:03> »
Tradition should never be used as justification.
While that is true, you can hardly fault someone for sticking to tradition when the reason that tradition existed in the first place is still around; in the case of Shadowrun, that reason is "if you put every single gun, armor, gear, 'ware, vehicle and magic option in the core rulebook it'd be way too big".
After all you don't send an electrician to fix your leaking toilet.

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Kwai

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« Reply #59 on: <03-05-17/1221:58> »
Not my work and I have only skimmed it but from a thread in another forum: https://www.reddit.com/r/Shadowrun/comments/28b4q3/the_shadowrun_5_superbook/