Shadowrun

Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: Gorstavich on <06-22-18/1358:49>

Title: Qualities dictating a Young Character
Post by: Gorstavich on <06-22-18/1358:49>
So, either I'm missing it in the 5th edition books I actually own, it's covered in a book I don't own, or it doesn't exist.  I figured I would inquire.

A friend has asked me if it was possible to play a teen, or pre-teen, character.  She is new to the game and due to her real life occupation immediately jumped onto the whole rates of physical vs. mental maturity differences between metahuman types (specifically, Orks and Trolls), and is considering the idea of playing an under aged character (which she also sees as giving her a good role play-able excuse to not knowing some of the in-game lore).

Are there any qualities, positive or negative, specifically for this?  And while on the topic, are there any that cover newly created characters that are past the prime of their life expectancy?
Title: Re: Qualities dictating a Young Character
Post by: adzling on <06-22-18/1400:15>
no Qualities for young'uns faik.

there is a Quality called "aged" for old'uns.
Title: Re: Qualities dictating a Young Character
Post by: SpellBinder on <06-22-18/1420:22>
Not really much for under-aged characters.  Neoteny (Run Faster, 121) is typically for changeling characters that look like their prepubescent metatype, and in part reflects this in a Physical Condition Monitor of 6 + (Body/2, round up).  It's not a bad start to reflect a much younger character.  Personally I ignore the +10% for custom armor, equipment, and lifestyle as IMO it makes no sense (someone on Dumpshock did some research and found modern kevlar vests for kids are no more expensive than for adults, for example).  I would likely use the Physical Condition Monitor, but without any requirement of being a Changeling or extra karma.

Also, Attributes of 3 tend to reflect the human average (or racial minimum +2, typically, for other metatypes).  Having a Body and Strength of 2 would be more typical for a young teen or preteen type of human character, which I have also seen in NPC stats of kids.  Unless the kid is some kind of Doogie Howser or Sheldon Cooper, mental attributes would likely be more like 3's.

SR5's BRB, page 131, gives examples on skills and what rating is equal to what, relatively.  Sort of.  Going off of a better description from SR4a's BRB, page 119, and converting to SR5's skill range, a preteen likely would have no skill above a 3; maybe one at 4 for a skill of particular interest, and nothing higher unless the kid, again, is some kind of Doogie Howser, Sheldon Cooper, or has practiced incessantly for much of his/her short life (like an Olympic gymnast or figure skater).  Considering the character's age, it'd also be very unlikely he/she would have any kind of vehicle handling skill at all (maybe Ground Craft 1 to represent occasional off roading on a motorcycle or ATV).
Title: Re: Qualities dictating a Young Character
Post by: Marcus on <06-22-18/1516:17>
Speaking as a GM, I would strongly caution against pre-teen characters. In a game as violent as SR can be, bringing a pre-teen along is  purely contraindicated, your committing enough crime as it is, why add corruption of Minor to the list? Further exposing minor to that sort violence has it's own serious moral question attached.  It can/should alter table dynamic in unhelpful ways. Teen characters on the other hand are perfectly legit, lots of tables have teenage characters at them.
Title: Re: Qualities dictating a Young Character
Post by: Beta on <06-22-18/1555:50>
Depending on the nature of your particular game, you could probably adapt or re-skin some existing qualities to reflect this. 

For example, if you are running pretty standard shadowrun, where Johnsons are hiring teams of proven criminals to go after serious targets, being young could make it hard to get taken seriously -- a penalty to street cred could reflect that, or a negative penalty to social limit.  There are a number of qualities that have such impacts that could be used this way.

The impact of the aged quality could also be used to reflect not being physically all the way mature -- just that you could buy off in game, if the game runs long enough.

A number of positive qualities reflecting sharp senses, trustworthiness, flexibility, etc could be used to reflect various aspects of youthfulness.

Perhaps a cut down version of uneducated, to reflect a limited education?
Title: Re: Qualities dictating a Young Character
Post by: Michael Chandra on <06-22-18/1620:05>
D3vgrrl went after Kane to make people take her serious, and Kane laughed too hard to harm her as a result. So there's your social downsides. =P
Title: Re: Qualities dictating a Young Character
Post by: Gorstavich on <06-22-18/1630:39>
I've been texting her for more details.  Turns out I was thinking of a 12-14 year old being raised in the outback by her ex-military NAN grandfather or some such... she was thinking more 10-12 year old Nigerian child soldier.  And as an Orc or Troll would already be nearing full physical maturity.

I'm taking some of your suggestions and tossing it all at our GM at this point.

Troll Nigerian Child Soldier.  That is actually kind of terrifying.

EDIT:  Running around our beloved Seattle.  While armed.  Definitely terrifying.
Title: Re: Qualities dictating a Young Character
Post by: Michael Chandra on <06-22-18/1633:34>
Social Stress definitely then.
Title: Re: Qualities dictating a Young Character
Post by: blackshade10 on <06-22-18/1715:19>
D3vgrrl went after Kane to make people take her serious, and Kane laughed too hard to harm her as a result. So there's your social downsides. =P

What book is that in? I've always wanted to read it.
Title: Re: Qualities dictating a Young Character
Post by: Gorstavich on <06-22-18/1738:50>
Well that was quick.  Two things...

1.  It has just been brought to my attention that she recently marathon-ed an anime called Jormungand, which features arms dealers and has a child soldier as one of the main characters.  Actually sounds interesting, I'm going to check it out this weekend.  Anyway, her thinking processes are starting to make a tad more sense to me now.

2.  Our GM stated, and I quote:  "#3!! %&#@%$ &#/$$!#@ NO."

She's considering the teen angle now.   ;D
Title: Re: Qualities dictating a Young Character
Post by: Sphinx on <06-22-18/1742:49>
What book is that in? I've always wanted to read it.

SR4 Street Legends Supplemental.
Title: Re: Qualities dictating a Young Character
Post by: blackshade10 on <06-22-18/1829:20>
What book is that in? I've always wanted to read it.

SR4 Street Legends Supplemental.

You da MVP!
Title: Re: Qualities dictating a Young Character
Post by: Ariketh on <06-22-18/2008:36>
Speaking as a GM, I would strongly caution against pre-teen characters. In a game as violent as SR can be, bringing a pre-teen along is  purely contraindicated, your committing enough crime as it is, why add corruption of Minor to the list? Further exposing minor to that sort violence has it's own serious moral question attached.  It can/should alter table dynamic in unhelpful ways. Teen characters on the other hand are perfectly legit, lots of tables have teenage characters at them.

"Whatcha in for?" He cracked his knuckles.

I sized up the troll. If this got bad... Well, too late now. "Murder, arson, and corruption of a minor."

That drew eyes. The troll squinted. "Corrupting minors?"

"What can I say? I was trying to teach my kid sister the proper arts of murder and arson. Then drek hit the fan. Scan this, chummer..."
Title: Re: Qualities dictating a Young Character
Post by: Gorstavich on <06-22-18/2146:43>
"Whatcha in for?" He cracked his knuckles.

I sized up the troll. If this got bad... Well, too late now. "Murder, arson, and corruption of a minor."

That drew eyes. The troll squinted. "Corrupting minors?"

"What can I say? I was trying to teach my kid sister the proper arts of murder and arson. Then drek hit the fan. Scan this, chummer..."

That is now a short story you need to write.   8)
Title: Re: Qualities dictating a Young Character
Post by: ChromeCoyote on <06-22-18/2149:04>
I just have to throw into this conversation that 90% of the characters I've seen at a table grew up SINless in the Barrens, but people here are put off by the idea of actually playing a young child SINless in the Barrens. I find this incredibly ironic. How many characters have you played that were never SINless in the Barrens, I wonder?
Title: Re: Qualities dictating a Young Character
Post by: Reaver on <06-22-18/2307:52>
I just have to throw into this conversation that 90% of the characters I've seen at a table grew up SINless in the Barrens, but people here are put off by the idea of actually playing a young child SINless in the Barrens. I find this incredibly ironic. How many characters have you played that were never SINless in the Barrens, I wonder?


Some of us are under no such illusions. And having traveled to over 30 developing or 3rd world countries, I don't think you want to know the sad, soul breaking things I have seen....



But there are some very large problems with this concept - for most races- before you get to moral implications.

For the most part, trying to play a child in such an adult themed game, realistically, is going to have some serious issues. Take your average 12 year old, and compare that to your average 30 year old.... By all measures of physical capability, the average 30 year old is going to be almost twice as strong, much more endurance, and have much better fine motor controls.
The mental stats in SR don't reflect educational level, but they do reflect someone who is past their formative and investigative years, not to mention the dept and breadth of learning experience that simple living provides.

So if the average adult person's stats are 3, what is the average stats of a preteen? 1? 2? Now is that playable?
Then you're on to knowledge skills. A preteen is just learning complex tasks and to cope with complex instructions, while an adult, just by the fact of living, has had time to learn these skills, and techniques.
The average human has 28 skill points, with an average skill rating of 3 to 4.  So what is appropriate for a preteen? 14 skill points with no skill above 3???

Not looking good for survivability.... But that should be expected. The person is, after all a preteen.



Now, things get REALLY murky when you throw in metahumans into that soup. It's Canon that an Ork reaches physical maturity at around 13 years of age, but not the mental maturity.  Which leads to all sorts of problems socially. After all, Little Johnny punching Ben because Ben called him a "booger Brain" when Little Johnny is six foot eight, 200 kilos and has the strength of a body builder is a bit of a problem... ( And in Lore, this is covered by the mentions of racial hatred, social groups, hate groups, and other pieces of lore and fluff).

Even with an Orks maturation rate, it is still assumed that the Ork character has had the time to mature mentally and emotionally, and when you consider that taking the Ork metatype takes a minimum of C resources... how do you adjust for the lack of mental and emotional maturity? -20% skill points? -40% skill points.


Or, just hand wave it away?

And then there is the other players/character to consider. While every one loves their snowflakes, and wants special consider for their snowflakes, because their snowflake is just that special, a tabletop game is still a social event requiring a social contract among the other players and GM... And some concepts are just taboo for some people.


"When you take a Snowflake and add it to other Snowflakes, you just end up with snow."
Title: Re: Qualities dictating a Young Character
Post by: Marcus on <06-23-18/0029:07>
I just have to echo what Reaver is saying. Nothing good comes from running pre-teens. It's bad in all ways. The game isn't intended for it, and there are reasons for that. I would not allow it my table, and I recommend against it in all circumstances.
Title: Re: Qualities dictating a Young Character
Post by: Xenon on <06-23-18/0542:56>
...what is the average stats of a preteen? 1? 2? Now is that playable?
Are you suggesting that taking Attribute Priority E during chargen is not an option in Shadowrun...?
Title: Re: Qualities dictating a Young Character
Post by: Sphinx on <06-23-18/0840:36>
I'm gonna go against consensus and say there's nothing wrong with playing a young character in Shadowrun. Plenty of interesting examples in literature, from Oliver Twist to Gavroche in Les Miserables to Y.T. in Snow Crash. In Shadowrun 3E, all otaku characters were supposed to be children, and I've seen several played very effectively by talented role-players.

There are no qualities describing it, as others have mentioned. Just accept that your kid character will be exceptional, equivalent to full-grown adult characters thanks to the magic of character generation. Start with average or lower Strength and Body for plausibility.
Title: Re: Qualities dictating a Young Character
Post by: Marcus on <06-23-18/0858:14>
...what is the average stats of a preteen? 1? 2? Now is that playable?
Are you suggesting that taking Attribute Priority E during chargen is not an option in Shadowrun...?
I'd suggest it's a deadman walking option. Which I'd say is the about the same thing as unplayable.
Title: Re: Qualities dictating a Young Character
Post by: Marcus on <06-23-18/0902:18>
Of those YT is the only within the genre, and further YT is exactly the sort of example I would like to avoid.
Title: Re: Qualities dictating a Young Character
Post by: Xenon on <06-23-18/1220:01>
...what is the average stats of a preteen? 1? 2? Now is that playable?
Are you suggesting that taking Attribute Priority E during chargen is not an option in Shadowrun...?
I'd suggest it's a deadman walking option. Which I'd say is the about the same thing as unplayable.
But it should be as legit picking Attributes E (average 1.5) as for example picking Metatype E, Magic E or Resources E.

If it isn't then I'd say something is wrong with the attribute priority column.

...or perhaps there is a problem with GMs that require/expect players to have at least rating 2 in every single attributes out of chargen.
Title: Re: Qualities dictating a Young Character
Post by: Marcus on <06-23-18/1307:29>
...what is the average stats of a preteen? 1? 2? Now is that playable?
Are you suggesting that taking Attribute Priority E during chargen is not an option in Shadowrun...?
I'd suggest it's a deadman walking option. Which I'd say is the about the same thing as unplayable.
But it should be as legit picking Attributes E (average 1.5) as for example picking Metatype E, Magic E or Resources E.

If it isn't then I'd say something is wrong with the attribute priority column.

...or perhaps there is a problem with GMs that require/expect players to have at least rating 2 in every single attributes out of chargen.
Maybe in some perfect world Xenon.  But in practice E attributes would be almost certainly be a death sentence even in something as easy as SRM.
Title: Re: Qualities dictating a Young Character
Post by: Reaver on <06-23-18/1604:46>
...what is the average stats of a preteen? 1? 2? Now is that playable?
Are you suggesting that taking Attribute Priority E during chargen is not an option in Shadowrun...?

No Attribute E is a possible choice. It may not be the most effective choice. Heck it even could be a deliberate attempt to hamper a character.

BUT, there is a far cry difference between taking taking Priority E for Attributes, and asking for ways to not take Attribute E attributes and looking for a way to play a attribute specific character with playing for the low stats (like in this case a preteen).

Also, Attribute E is usually only taken by Metahuman races that usually include a heavy stat buff.
Elf: +3
Dwarf: +4
Ork: +3
Troll:+5

Not to mention free racial abilities. (Armor, vision, reach).

Now, I suppose a Human could take attributes E if he choose to. But it would be a very sub-optimal choice, (But is still a choice).

However, if your objective is to create a viable character that is going to contribute to a party as much as the next guy in the team, Why would you?
If your objective is to create a unique, and beautiful snowflake (that also happens to be quad amputee, 1 in all skills, 1 in all attributes, with no cyber) Why would a team take you?

As I said in closing, tabletops are social games and that comes with a social contract between all the players at the table. It may be unwritten, and unspoken, but its there. It could be as simple as "lets all have fun!".... And some concepts or builds can go outside that social contract for some tables. (each table's social contract will be different)

Shadowrun is an adult  game, with themes of sexual exploitation, drug abuse, murder, victimization, and organ harvesting. And that's before you get to the really nasty shit that happens in the darker side of the shadows (Puppeteering, child exploitation, slavery, organ and fetal tissue farms).

It's small wonder given today's social climate that some tables would balk at a child runner. (Have you seen that crazy shit happening at colleges and universities across the western world?  Some asshole shows up to speak, a bunch of students lose their marbles and break  millions of dollars of public property. OVER SOMEONE SPEAKING!!! I have listened to a couple of these de-platformed speakers... the most controversial thing so far said was "You are an adult, act like one!") 
Title: Re: Qualities dictating a Young Character
Post by: Streetsam_Crunch on <06-23-18/1636:57>
Depending on the theme/mood of my campaign, I'd allow it. Either because it was more lighthearted 'pink mohawk' fare, or for the very reason it was gritty and nasty and expressing how dark it is to have a kid involved in it somehow. I trust my regular group to be pretty mature about the whole thing.

However, it would only be for roleplaying purposes, I don't think I'd apply a negative quality to it. If the kid was raised by runners and is a smarmy little tunnel rat, then they'd probably be just as skilled as any adult. Now I would completely understand if they took negative qualities that reflected that, like Uneducated, or something.

I MIGHT would allow taking the Prejudiced negative quality, but I would reverse it, and it would apply to them instead of others. If they took it though, I'd play it up to those that don't know them, and they'd have to always prove they're not 'just a kid' until they bought it off (I would also encourage the rest of the group to roleplay that up for fun as well). Just the 7 point one, though, and they could buy it off as they grew up or gained reputation.

Otherwise, people would give them a sidelong glance, but generally let it slide unless there was a specific reason not to. "Hey kid, you can't go in there!" That or if they disguised themselves it'd be to look like a dwarf or something and/or had a fake SIN that displayed a different age (how many people would look at that and if it looked like their SIN belonged there wouldn't give it more than a glance?)

For an example, read "Unwired" 4th edition, page 32 (I love that story... f*****g hardcopy! >:( ) So, there's at least that precedent for underage runners.

Crunch~

Title: Re: Qualities dictating a Young Character
Post by: Sphinx on <06-23-18/1707:02>
Yeah, Attributes E should have more points than it does. Consider that the middle segment of the bell curve is rating 3 by definition (adjusting for metatype), which means most people have rating 3 attributes. Rating 4 is unusually strong, rating 5 is stronger than almost everyone, and rating 6 is the strongest you can be without augmentation. On the other hand, rating 2 is unusually weak, and rating 1 borders on disability. Anyone who takes Attributes E or D has a lower average rating than a typical person. Personally, I'd add at least two points to every priority level.

Shadowrun is an adult  game, with themes of sexual exploitation, drug abuse, murder, victimization, and organ harvesting. And that's before you get to the really nasty shit that happens in the darker side of the shadows (Puppeteering, child exploitation, slavery, organ and fetal tissue farms).

Not every campaign delves into mature issues. Most games I've run or played were mostly PG-rated. I've seen games at conventions with 13-year-olds sitting at the table as players, not characters.

I just have to echo what Reaver is saying. Nothing good comes from running pre-teens. It's bad in all ways. The game isn't intended for it, and there are reasons for that. I would not allow it my table, and I recommend against it in all circumstances.

Am I the only one who remembers otaku?
Title: Re: Qualities dictating a Young Character
Post by: Marcus on <06-23-18/2126:22>
Am I the only one who remembers otaku?

I haven't forgotten Otaku, and yes i can recall probably half a dozen maybe sight less otaku NPCs. There were issues with them being children. Admittedly not all of them. They were never popular with the peeps i played with in 3rd, and honestly My memory of that time and those rules is not strong and I would have to  go digging for much of those rules.

But it's not mistake that Otaku were replaced with TM in 4th, and were no longer subject to the rules otaku were.

Title: Re: Qualities dictating a Young Character
Post by: fseperent on <06-24-18/0209:04>
Might I offer a suggestion for building a young character?

Life Modules with Nationalities, Formative years, and possibly Teen years modules only.
Can only add 2 to any skills or attributes after life modules.
Maximum Availability at 6 or 8.
Title: Re: Qualities dictating a Young Character
Post by: Gorstavich on <06-26-18/1242:45>
Checked out the anime Jormungand over the weekend, and liked what I saw.  Could totally see a mini/short SRM season in which the players are hired to protect an Arms Dealer as they travel from country to country, peddling their wares.
Title: Re: Qualities dictating a Young Character
Post by: Xenon on <06-26-18/1508:54>
Checked out the anime Jormungand over the weekend, and liked what I saw.
You recommend it? :-)

(another good anime, at least from a Shadowrun-archetypes-point-of-view, is the "Black Lagoon" series)


...sorry for hi-jacking your thread(!)
Title: Re: Qualities dictating a Young Character
Post by: Gorstavich on <06-27-18/1156:43>
You recommend it? :-)

The 7 or 8 episodes I saw were enjoyable... the question I can't answer is if the ending is good (a frequent gripe of mine in regards to Japanese anime, good story / plot followed by a rushed or cheesy ending).