Shadowrun
Shadowrun Missions Living Campaign => Living Campaign GM chat => Topic started by: Leigion on <06-14-12/2247:56>
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Hey Chummers,
I was wondering why some missions seem, how to put this... completely nonsense/ unbelievable/ 0 common sense. I am sorry i don't mean to offend the writers think of this as constructive criticism. A couple of case and points real fast. 1st off ready set gough where the team is hired to steal a fish tank and some other pieces of art then return the stolen art to charity. WTF seriously? How about the one where your stuck in a service tunnel after a ambush and the dead shadowruner on a service latter is rigged to explode. Oh and if you just kinda sit and wait a fixer shows up with a crew to help out the runners. In all technically its GM fiat and doesn't even roll well with players since anyone with common sense will shoot the fixer thinking he had something to do with the ambush. Sorry i cant think of the mission that was off hand, but it involved a truck full of food. Even when i asked my girlfriend and painted the scean to her she even came to the conclusion that the fixer had to know about the ambush to show up with people and the means to get the goods off loaded.
We are are supposed to be playing criminal freelancers/freedom fighters. Granted we could play something else but basically if their is a johnson involved then its a merc sitcho. I played the game for years have alot of the books and iam not trying to come off as a douche believe me. I am just seriously wondering why no real life reaserch goes into these missions to make them more beliveable? I rember Nigel Findleys work some modules and some shadowrun novels his stuff was pretty believable to a point. Ok granted we got cyberpunk meets magic but still the meat and potato's is doing criminal or at least very questionable things for a buck. Why cant the skeleton of the run be based in reality? Why not consult with real life ex military, cops, criminal originations? Real life writer do this all the time. In a maximum security prison a carton of smokes can get you a crap ton of information for a story. Hell. alot of people in solitary would jump at the chance to talk to someone that wasn't a cop with a half flung story of data mining him for a small amount of credit.
Also quick question maybe i some how missed it in wired or the sr4 book but can someone please explain to me why in the world a criminal would take his cell phone on a job when even if its a throw away phone its going to be handshaking with everything it comes into contact with. Even off another device would notice hey that device just came into my area better make a note of it. Another thing would be who has a meet with a team of free lancers its usual the represent meeting the fixer/johnson in a controlled area. Said person better have street cred or do something pro bono to prove he aint no cop. Usually the fixer knows the guy, knows where to find him or his family. Incase well someone decides to get caught and spill the beans. Oh and if the guy had a recording device at anytime electronic eyes ears bla bla bla yep that cat is going to get duped and then shot for sure possible innocent associates too.
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I was wondering why missions seem, how to put this... completely nonsense/ unbelievable/ 0 common sense.
Because it's absolutely impossible to think of a "realistic" way to toss together 6-8 random criminals, who may or may not have ever worked together before and who may or may not all have compatible, incompatible, or completely the same skill set, to get them to work together with zero prep time, to fling them into a tense situation (that is dramatic enough to only be resolved through spellcasting, shooting, hacking, aggressive driving, or bald-faced lying), and then to wrap it all up, no matter how competent or incompetent, how decisive or indecisive, how experienced or how wide-eyed, how competitive or how laid-back, that crew of 6-8 people is, in four hours. And, most of all, to do it all over and over and over again, for as many adventures as there are in the Missions line.
So, yes. We railroad. We come up with something cool/different to buck the Shadowrun trends, sometimes. We lay out clues and offer up helpful NPCs to try and keep the group moving. We simplify jobs, we spoon-feed information, we try to make sure the PCs can win the climactic gunfight (even if every PC is running someone as shitty as the core book's Weapon Specialist). We hold the GMs hand and try to tell them exactly what to do, so that they can hold the players' hands and make sure the adventure gets done on time.
Because we have to, just to make the game work at all.
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My imaginary world isn't real enough for me!
Missions are a totally contrived mechanism used for a shared world.
Extra karma and awards to players who can in the 4 hour mission session come up with the immediate back story to support what is presented to them.
Improvise your RP justification for your characters actions ion the face of the wacky situation. Have FUN with it. :)
Why are you not suspecting the Johnson of setting up the ambush? Help the GM, come up with your own story for it! (Maybe the Johnson is your secret donor clone for your significant other and you know they would never hurt you?)
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Thanks for leaving a reply:)
Critias point was how would you get 6-8 random criminals together realistically. Again if we are talking a convention, as in we just grabbed 6 random strangers with some, little or no experience and sat them down with a story and injected what ever type they made into it. Should kid gloves come out along with railroading to fit it in 4 hours probably, but you can still make it more semi realistic. Even if Hollywood realistic to some degree. Example off the top of my head Usual suspects, random criminals locked up together and charges dropped, plot thickens. Ronin, professional mercenary all but one were contacted by the man in the wheelchair. Hitman, works for a agency. Again any of these would work for a convention I could probably think of more from movies or books that joe puplic would know and could atleast get in the door with semi realistic.
If we are talking a group of friends that meet every Thursday night and maybe with a new guy once in a while. Then why cant we up the scale on realistic material for them. How do 6-8 random criminals get together for a lick in the real world? Well again since real life criminals as in career criminals that never if ever did a honest days work other then a front to pay taxes. Criminals run in packs for the most part and what i mean by this is if your a thief then you know a fence even if its a pawn shop owner who happens to look the other way. Serious drug dealers as in clearing something like a grand or more a week usually know a wide ranch of people from strippers to gangsters and everything in between with a slew of channels to find anything they really want. In almost every single case of real life career criminals they are all partly connected to organized crime some how some way because wether its a club a gang an organization insert has the man power and network to put their fingers in what ever they want, that will potentially make a buck.
Take a specialist type as in lots of skills they had to learn to do thier job hackers or mercenary's. Hackers are not singular they work in groups swapping information programs passwords what not. Even the ones stealing bank accounts hardly work alone. Mercenaries almost always have military experience. Ex military or trained by professionals that have made a name for themselves to even vouch the new guy in. Real life example check out Logan Heights gang trained by the cartels. You can data mine them all day for source material for shadowrun.
For the comment "my imaginary world isn't real enough" Wow just wow. Take dragnet that whole show was based on real cases. I couldn't tell you how many law shows do a episode from something that made a headline. They twist it around enough that no one can get sued but still. How about fictional writing check out old school sci-fi 40 years back to now. Look what type of tech we have today its almost prophetic in the notions some people have come up with. Cloning, body modification, they even have limbs that work via neurological impulses today.
I guess what i am trying to ask is, are there any plans on making "episodes" ripped from the headlines? Any new source material geared more towards law enforcement, military or criminal fiction that stems in real world practicality?
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I think if Shadowrun were more realistic then it'd be lacking the whole reason we play it. Sci-Fantasy noir crime game. I'm totally down with whatever insanity Missions throws at me since it's a game about magic orcs shooting bad (or good) guys and elves replacing 85% of their bodyparts to make themselves killier.
If anything, your GM could houserule some of the more fantastical elements out of the Missions books and run them a bit more real.
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If we are talking a group of friends that meet every Thursday night and maybe with a new guy once in a while. Then why cant we up the scale on realistic material for them.
You absolutely can. Every single scene of every single Mission has all kinds of optional stuff that GMs can do (or not do) to alter the difficulty or otherwise change the tone, and there's absolutely no one, ever, that's going to come to your house and tell you you're running an adventure wrong.
Missions have to be written with not that group in mind, though. They've got to be readily accessible to the convention-going crowd, which is going to be composed of folks with all different skill levels and experience with the game (GMs included), but also people that may or may not want realism. It's safer to give people high-octane gaming that's gonna hook 'em on the setting, not an episode of Law & Order or something.
I guess what i am trying to ask is, are there any plans on making "episodes" ripped from the headlines? Any new source material geared more towards law enforcement, military or criminal fiction that stems in real world practicality?
Probably not for Missions as much as you'd like, because how do you run that when people show up with a Pixie, a techno-mage, a shaman that can turn into a miniature dragon, and four guys who can throw fireballs? They don't want realism, and they'll either not have a good time, blow it all up, or not have a good time while blowing it all up.
Shadowrun is not realistic, and depending on the group of players no given adventure can even really support much realism. You can't randomly inject one adventure's worth of "reality" into the setting, the best you can hope for is verisimilitude; what passes for reality in Shadowrun's reality.
Now, all that said? I'm not trying to bust your chops, here, I'm just trying to explain why "realism" is a dangerous thing, and difficult to inject (in small doses) into a setting as wacky and over-the-top as Shadowrun. Aside from all that, though?
If you've got a bitchin' idea for a Missions adventure with some ripped-from-the-headlines premise, and you think other folks would like to play it? Talk to Bull, write it up if he wants you to, and CGL'll cut you a check. Missions can always use more writers.
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Also quick question maybe i some how missed it in wired or the sr4 book but can someone please explain to me why in the world a criminal would take his cell phone on a job when even if its a throw away phone its going to be handshaking with everything it comes into contact with.
You put it into hidden mode precisely so it doesn't do that.
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to Critias, I am not trying to bad mouth writers I was only trying to have a open dialog with a few questions and points. I am sure their are plenty of hours burning the midnight oil, brainstorming, editing, play testing, fixing flats, reediting and packaging it in a nice ready to play format. Not to mention working under a Damocles Sword called a deadline.
I don't want to be misunderstood with how i used the word "realism" as in someone in the real world believes, because of last week episode of missions... they can now heist a armored car, despite the fact they left their pocket mage at home, but did bring their mothers Buick. That's not what iam saying just to clear that up really fast.
what i am saying with a healthy dose of kids its a fantasy and don't try this at home( for the lawyers and head cases out there) why not use the settings rich history and flavor, to tell storys of greed, corporate puppeteering, economic ruin and unsettling things that go on in the underworld with a semi believable, realistic premise. Not walking out of a museum with a gigantic fish tank no offence.
I believe thier is still a sizable market for the adult theme cyperpunk/noir/magic. Its been going on since the 80's and growing. I get your point bring new players in. No doubt you guys have but what about the fans that are 30+ and or old time players not to mention the ones moving away from the kids stuff rpgs. Slap a parental advisory on something and watch it move like hot cakes. White wolf to HBO people tune in for the adult content.
Any who I'll take you up on your offer about writing something for missions, if you give me a chance. I was working on a carrier episode that had car chases plot twists and cool tactics for my group but i can fix it to make it more main stream. If i can't i got no problem ripping something from the headlines and twisting it for shadowrun. Email me the parameters of do's and don'ts and tell me how to get a hold of bull to send it. Thanks
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You'd have to talk to Bull about Missions, and he's a busy ork.
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Do remember that the "realistic" gritty black trenchcoat noir game is only one of several sub-genres within the overall cyberpunkish setting that is Shadowrun.
There's also the other extreme, Pink Mohawk, and there are a LOT of folks that like that play style. And a whole range of variations in between.
The campaign has some adventures that cater to one side, and some to the other, and some attempt to do a little of both. Some will be more like Mission Impossible. Others like Burn Notice. Others like The A-Team.
In short, not everyone likes what you like, and Shadowrun Missions needs to take that into account.
-k
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What about the Impossible Pink Burn Team? ;D
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What about the Impossible Pink Burn Team? ;D
You don't want to know about them.
Great Dragons don't want to know about them.
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I defiantly should make myself more clearer. Maybe shorter posts? Ok when i said cyberpunk/noir/magic I meant each sub group of those three maybe not all three at once. That's allot of rule memorization to make it all blend seamlessly together. I didn't include pink Mohawk because well... I honestly think of Night City when I think of that. Cyberpunk game you know where its encouraged to play over the top anime no plan just shoot style. Pink Mohawk means that to me, with extra dose of cheese. I don't know if you meant it as over the top or 80's feel, some people mean 80's feel.
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Hi I am a long time viewer and first time poster. I made an account just too throw my two cents in. I've played shadow run since the second edition and I think I understand what Leigion is trying to say, so if I have this wrong, please feel free to correct me. Are you talking about making 'missions' or a side element project, feel like the wire or sons of anarchy blended in with cyber punk genre sprinkled with magic and elf's? I am reaching here, but if you are talking about that and making it feel more logical in response like if a swat team gets called and your pinned down with no back up plan, you're pretty much toast...if that is the scenario, I would be willing to buy it! That be wicked fun with my group.
I think it would be more for adults and groups who have played it a bit through and not so much for new players or DM's but hey you never know... When I first started the group in which I was playing with, we played gritty and edgy. Gang bangers, go go gangs, and mobsters felt real, feds watching them and everything. They are not cardboard figures to shoot at and it was so fun knowing that if we goofed up we could die, and plan C was last ditch effort. Lone star book was awesome, by the way we should have a mission line that's for more edgy players, that feels more mean street...not just bigger and badder enemies, but where you have to think more and live with the consequences good or bad. I think there is a market for this, because other players on different sites talk more about liking the rough feel then the pink Mohawk style. Finally, I just wanted to say real quick, you have some good points and you should turn in some of your ideas and see if they like them, because I do!
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to Sting, your 1st paragraph sums it up. I do like the other points about are not cardboard cut out feel and the feds are watching the the organized crime. That's a excellent point considering when are they not trying to pin a R.I.C.O. case on an organized outfit?
Yes both polarities of law and crime would be nice to see in a mission. Maybe a status block of how fast the cops would show up and what degree of force would they start with and how fast it escalates. I agree the Lonestar source book was good. It had an overview of how cops in the future would counter magic, hacking, and shadowruners.
Bringing it back to missions in 2nd season people were gaining reps with different criminal elements and later in 3rd season it was rep with corps. I think having both elements in play adds a nice touch. Players begin building their own webs of complications just moving in the shadows.
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New Seattle has exactly that table with response times. You probably want to multiply by at least ten to make them remotely "realistic" though.
I really like the Faction mechanic, but it does exist in Season 4 still.
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i've been away from this site for far too long. My advice would be that if you dont like the far-fetched missions and stories, come up with your own. Im GMing Anarchy: Subsidised which is not realistic at all. Cloning a baby, making a fake porn video and playing it on the Japanese version of Times Square? Silly? well yes. Interesting? well yes. Fun? Hell yes! You can always change some things too. The group who are running are mostly newbies to RP so i thought i'd simplify it, no more races or magic. the end result is something a bit more like Deus Ex or Ghost in the Shell and it works perfectly. Its also easier on the GM ;)
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Perhaps, folks that have played them could help categorize the "feel" of the various SRM games?
I know there are definitely more serious ones, and sillier ones, and having "theme" keywords perhaps tagged in the description might help folks decide what Missions to order for their events.
Tags like "lighthearted", "serious", "investigative", "combat-oriented", etc.
-k
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Mine has been tagged as "Dark" and "Sucky Ending". :-\
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Mine has been tagged as "Dark" and "Sucky Ending". :-\
You Sir are far too harsh on yourself! ;)
So when is your next piece out? What's you working on now?
And when do we get more Missions? (Need... more... Missions!)
Oh, and why can't Missions be more Pink Mohawk?
When was the last time we blew something really big up?
Or saved the world from terrorists trying to blow something up (and thus ruin our explosions! grrr... terrorirsts suck!)
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New Seattle has exactly that table with response times. You probably want to multiply by at least ten to make them remotely "realistic" though.
The tables are not supposed to be realistic, the original blurb from the lone star book was quite explicit on this. The response times reflect gameplay mechanics.
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The tables are not supposed to be realistic, the original blurb from the lone star book was quite explicit on this. The response times reflect gameplay mechanics.
Oh, I know. But the OP was after "realism" so I figured it was worth flagging up.
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Mine has been tagged as "Dark" and "Sucky Ending". :-\
You Sir are far too harsh on yourself! ;)
No, that's pretty much every review I've seen of it so far, including my group last night.So when is your next piece out? What's you working on now?
My next piece is out when it's announced. If I was working on something, which I can't confirm nor deny that I am due to NDA, I couldn't comment on it.And when do we get more Missions? (Need... more... Missions!)
Ask Bull.Oh, and why can't Missions be more Pink Mohawk?
Ask Bull and Jason.When was the last time we blew something really big up?
I don't know about you, but my group missed out on taking out a good chunk of Seattle with a bus about a year ago...Or saved the world from terrorists trying to blow something up (and thus ruin our explosions! grrr... terrorirsts suck!)
Some people just want to watch the world Burn (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/99649/Shadowrun%3A-Mission%3A-04-07%3A-Burn).
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Yes, I've been waiting a long time to use that pun. ;D
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I think the answer to many of these problems -- whether it's "why can't Missions be more realistic?" or "why can't Missions be more pink mohawk" -- is basically "it already is, as much as we can make it." Consistently so? No, maybe not. But there are a lot of different Missions out there, written by a lot of different people, with a lot of different moods to 'em.
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Missions are what Missions are. I take a zen approach to things, and for teh most part I give my writers a lot of leeway on the style they want to approach a Mission from.
To paraphrase (and misquote) the old Shadowrun Grimoire (Which is, in turn, misquoting a much older phrase): "As any 10 Shadowrun players what Shadowrun is, and you'll get back 13 different answers."
There is no one singular style of Shadowrun. Some games are James Bond. Some are Jason Bourne. Some are Die Hard. Some are Sneakers. Some are A-Team. Some are GI Joe. Some are Expendables. And some are the Great Muppet Caper.
With Missions, I aim for something in the middle most of teh time. Some games veer one direction or the other, but I try and stay in the middle. At Conventions, you never know what the players are going to want, so middle of teh road is "safest". in a home game, the GM can usually tailor the event to his players and their play-style (and he should!)
Bull
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Also, I should point out that Shadowrun is inherently completely unbelievable. Even discounting Immortal Elves, Dragons, and Blood Mage-run Megacorps... Shadowrun itself shouldn't work. The technology, as presented (especially since SR3) should effectively neutralize Shadowrunners as a whole. You're average Shadowrun team should have a lifespan of two to three jobs before they're dead or in jail. Security in Shadowrun is so pervasive, and the rules for tracking and finding people electronically or magically are so easy that you have to just accept that reality is... broken. Otherwise, the game itself becomes unplayable.
You ever want to come to gen Con or Origins and play a Realistic Shadowrun game? I'll arrange for that. But I can almost guarantee, you won't like it and it won't be any fun.
(Note: Not trying to pick on you here, just saying... The more realistic you make Shadowrun, the more unplayable it becomes)
Bull
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I am not talking about mechanics per say when I use the word realistic. Some optional rules in SR4 can be used making the game more gritty or deadly. Source books provide other optional rules to add more realism ,take Wired with harder encryption rules for one example.
Yes cloning a baby and making a porno to throw up a public screen isn't that far off the rails. The game has things like the matrix, cloning and ansortmen of sci-fi tech in the setting not to mention magic. Its part of the setting and taking it away changes the setting. You could be using the rule base shadowrun but after nuking the setting points your playing something different.
I am using the word realism to describe certain logical responses if you will. Maybe I should just use the word vicarious for realism. Which makes me wonder what ever happened to Prime Missions I see 2 and then the line stopped? If so, any plans on continuing the project? I would assume it would be for harder play, cops and criminal elements hunting the players not just bigger bad guys. I'll list a couple of examples in a later post, i don't want to make one post super long with lots of paragraphs. Questions tend to get skipped that way.
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I understand what you are saying about conventions and i hear you loud and clear. They are a place for a wide player base and new fans to come and enjoy hours of fun. Plus you have a lot of themes to ensure you cover all the bases. I completely understand hey its a business and in the process you have to keep a majority of the fans happy and content. Don't get me wrong I think you guys did a great job on simplifying rules, bringing more people in to play your games and over all did a good job. What ever my opinions are you guys did great in 2011 so you guys at catalyst are obviously doing something right.
That being said, I don't think your game is broken or am I saying scratch what your missions writers are doing for convention play and focus more on this one theme. Here is what I am saying. You have more then just general players in your fan base. Like anything people and groups will gravitate to one extreme or another and not just ride down the middle road. Some players lean more towards gritty, others lean pink mohawk. Why cant their be more choice in a mission line to get the direct flavor of what individual groups want?
Think modules back in TSR days. Other then settings they had different levels of play Piazo comes to mind if looking at something current. Would it be possible and for an example of doing say 2 more mission lines completely in sub theme away from mainstream to run with the two extremes? For example calling one Noir Grit and the other Pink Mist? Again i never claimed to be a marketer with catchy slogans lol. But my point still stands, considering they can be in PDF form you don't really have to pay book binding publishers and all.
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That being said, I don't think your game is broken or am I saying scratch what your missions writers are doing for convention play and focus more on this one theme. Here is what I am saying. You have more then just general players in your fan base. Like anything people and groups will gravitate to one extreme or another and not just ride down the middle road. Some players lean more towards gritty, others lean pink mohawk. Why cant their be more choice in a mission line to get the direct flavor of what individual groups want?
To be bluntly honest, because you can't please everyone and you just have to do the best you can. When I write a piece, mission, story, etc I've found that the best way to do it is not to try and "please" anyone. I come up with a story and work to do the best I can and then let the chips fall where they may.
With the mission I wrote, Bull flat out told me that there were people who were likely going to be pissed off at one point because, well it's a railroad job. But you know what, instead of cringing, I embraced it and ran with it for all it was worth and Bull supported it. We knew there are going to be detractors and differences of opinion. But when I got to run it at Origins for the first time, I got some VERY positive (and some negative, but hey) feeback. And sometimes I had to change the living *BLEEEEEP* out of it on the fly to fit the group dynamic. It happens, and that's part of the fun.
But as Critas said, the individual GM's and or players are free to do what they want with the Mission, nothing anywhere says that the story is written in stone and HAS to be done a specific way. Hell, every game I run, no matter what it is, the players always seem to come up with some new way to give me a headache. Writers and game producers can't be expected to be all things to all people and I am of the opinion that sometimes individuals have to step up and take the time to work things out and customize things for their own needs for their own groups. We as writers can only do so much.
There's also the issue of a little thing called a budget. I'm sure that Bull, Catalyst, et al would LOVE to pump out Missions of all flavors with multiple stories and volumes (calm down Bull, don't have a heart attack on me), but the fact is we can't. So we simply have to pick and chose our battles.
And when do we get more Missions? (Need... more... Missions!)
Hmmmm, I do think that SRM 04-09 Assassin Nation should be coming out fairly soon. 8)
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Maybe I should just use the word vicarious for realism.
What you're talking about is actually verisimilitude (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verisimilitude). Vicarious (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/vicarious) means something else entirely.
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Mystic, thanks. I guess that summed it up its a budget thing, and cant go into two extremes off mainstream. I could see going more then two being a problem splitting writers on a handful of projects.
Bull, I would like to comment on something you posted, but in order to i have to flip the two sentences around, ok. "You're average Shadowrun team should have a life span of two to three jobs before they're dead or in jail." That's exactly what the DM needs to say and make sure everyone is on board before upping the ante at the table. If a GM and a group wants to up it like this I also suggest telling the players off rip look out for snitches,undercover agents, and the underworld acts like the underworld. The team has to take precautions
"Security in Shadowrun is so pervasive, and the rules for tracking and finding people electronically or magically are so easy that you have to just accept that reality is... broken." On the electronic tech used for tracking in shadowrun rfid, wi-fi, implanted chips, voice & face recondition screens even some nano machine stuff is right out of Popular Science Magazine. I was surprised to when it was brought to my attention as well. Majority of the stuff is like less then 10 years away. (not robotics or the matrix that's still little while down the road) If anything tech in shadowrun came closer to just around the bend then further away. In regards to the wi-fi stuff even military drones. Basic how to up the ante and counter is by spike the bummer in this thread http://forum.rpg.net/archive/index.php/t-235629.html None of this do you really have to make special rules for just a basic cover your ass set of priorities. As far as the magic you guys did a alright job in the books explaining how to counter in bits and pieces.
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To raggedhalo, No i ment Vicarious number 3 in the defination you posted. Felt or undergone as if one were taking part in the experience or feelings of another, is how I ment it.
Before i forget Spikethebummer gets a little pissed in the thread I posted i just wanted to point out I am agreeing with his security points and how to keep privacy, not exactly everything he goes off about because he clearly gets mad the further you read it. I had to reread it myself just now. We took alot of what he said and used it in the campain we still play in.
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I'll just add my thoughts as well. Don't forget that you have additional options for running games: Shadowrun Adventures and Plot Sourcebooks. They are excellent sources for hours (sometimes months) of running and are very flexible as to how realistic (or unrealistic) the GM wants to make things. I took my own group into Ghost Cartels and we only made it half way through in six months of every other week gaming. They are an option to look at if you find that Missions don't quite meet your need.
As Mystic noted, Missions can be adjusted quickly on the fly to meet the particular make up of the party.
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Great Muppet Caper, really Bull?
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Oh, right, I had my group hired to kidnap Goofy from MouseCorp once. Never mind. ;D
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oh Ghost Cartels
my group did the first campaign
they have a healthy respect for plant spirits now
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My group learned respect for plant spirits when the lawn started beating up their safehouse.
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I was wondering why missions seem, how to put this... completely nonsense/ unbelievable/ 0 common sense.
I don't see them as this way. Allow me to explain.
Running "Back in Business" for the first time and running a Shadowrun Game in many moons and I have to say, the beginning is of "Back in Business" is very plausible. It's like most any start of any Fantasy Adventure, except the Fixer or Headhunter figures you're up to a job. A Shadowrun team is put together, and they are sent on a mission to retrieve someone.
It's just like putting together any kind of a team, really. I don't see that as nonsense/unbelievable. Now you have probably ran more missions than I have, but that's understandable. But just to be clear to the Writers, I don't think the missions have 0 common sense. If they were nonsense, I wouldn't be running them. ;D
The Missions series have to make sense, somehow, or people wouldn't be buying them and running them. I don't have any of the Missions sales numbers in front of me, since Catalyst doesn't talk about such things. However, I'm certain you are inaccurate in voicing your perception of the Missions series. Perhaps more people disagree with your 0 common sense perception. I'm not perceiving what you perceive about them, so I have to disagree.
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Most of my players have enjoyed the missions so far.
Remember Shadowrun is suppose to be like a movie & we all know how unrealistic they can be
and just suspend disbelief for a few hours.
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Looks at the dragons, the various types of metahumans, magicians, technomancers, electronic drugs, the governments of the world, the megacorporations holding court in a space station, and really bad beer.
Well, that last part is realistic. ;D
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I often bring a six pack of american beer to the game so the players can more easily get into the feel of dystopic world of Shadowrun... ;)
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I often bring a six pack of american beer to the game so the players can more easily get into the feel of dystopic world of Shadowrun... ;)
Hey, we Americans have plenty of good beer once you get away from the horse-piss like Budweiser, we just don't export it! :P ;)
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Canada exported the horses that make US beer to keep them from making it here. ;D
The last one was finally removed from my hometown about a year after I moved away. I think they're putting a bus station there now.
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I often bring a six pack of american beer to the game so the players can more easily get into the feel of dystopic world of Shadowrun... ;)
Hey, we Americans have plenty of good beer once you get away from the horse-piss like Budweiser, we just don't export it! :P ;)
I never tasted beer, but I thought Samuel Adams' brand is definitely a better brand than the "Bud."
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Seems I step away for a few days and the thread goes off the ice. To quote Mic from Give me shelter, as he's pleading with the Hells Angels"lets just keep it together people..keep it together"
Ok so Canray picked magic side of things to spell out nothing at all similar with the real world. So lets look at similarity of the real world to the Shadowrun world for a sec shall we. Lets talk about Megacorps Love em hate em Megacorps both worlds have em. So here some quick facts yes i'll give links out so we can all be on the same page. Lets scroll down and read United States and what it says a corp is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporation 1650. Massachusetts itself was a corporate colony at that time -owned and operated by the Massachusetts Bay Company (until it lost its charter in 1684) Shadowrun calls that a conclave. In Shadowrun Megacorps control countries lets look at our Megas compared to countries http://www.businessinsider.com/25-corporations-bigger-tan-countries-2011-6?op=1 You all want one real example of a Megacorp where people don't have to leave and actually have thier own police force? Believe it or not, Disneyworld. Check out all the crazy legality's surrounding that spot of land. Believe me they aint the only one.
Speaking of privatized quasi law enforcement with all the gun totting tazer wielding patrol officers in cop cars patrolling neiborhoods that you'll ever need.http://paladinprivatesecurity.com/index.php?option=com_frontpage&Itemid=1 Begining of Lonestar anyone?.. maybe. How about privatized Prisons with corps making HUGE paydata from goods and services http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_prison Wait how bout a corp that is its own band of mercenary's http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackwater_Security So moving right along lets talk about Shadowrun tech vrs the real world http://www.popsci.com/ nuff said.
Corps micro-chipping and rfid tags that's definitely Shadowrun I'll throw 2 bones in this mix HR 3200 bill. Real bill talked about micro-chipping the public. Lets hear what mythbusters had to say about RFID chips and what megacorps had to say about it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X034R3yzDhw
So with all that being said and linked shit I missed magic didn't I ok Magic here's a toughy. So I'll throw some wood to the fire on this one. Let's not define is it real or is not for starters, because i am not getting into this whole do you believe in ghosts conversation.What i think we can all agree on is some people believe, so since Shadowrun just put out magical societies lets just go there and call it quits. Keeping it to Shadowrun theme magical societies that have some serious backing and political power here is two. The Golden Dawn had Mr Crowley as a member (congrats if someone gets that double reference) but what isn't well known is Bram Stroker was also a member, yes Canray, bloodsucking vampire writer. Lets go a head and bring the big gun out for the evening http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bohemian_grove Now can they do the boogety boo? Who knows but some people think they can and do.
All this brings me back to the original thread "why cant missions be more realistic." To me I see this gargantuan ball of yarn of real world stuff that can be spun into the game and played upon. Honestly I thought the reason had something to do with why mythbusters cant ever do their RFID show. Well that and what happened to GURPS Cyperpunk in the 1990's with the whole secret service raiding a role playing game maker over a book.
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Don't screw with MouseCorp. They're called "The Magic Kingdom" for a reason! ;D
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" To me I see this gargantuan ball of yarn of real world stuff that can be spun into the game and played upon. Honestly I thought the reason had something to do with why mythbusters cant ever do their RFID show. Well that and what happened to GURPS Cyperpunk in the 1990's with the whole secret service raiding a role playing game maker over a book.
Is that what you're angry about? You do realize that Shadowrun is fiction, right? :)
If you want to run an illuminated Shadowrun campaign (making it more illuminated than it is), there are options for that. I don't think that the Missions series is designed to go running with Plan 9.
What I mean is that Shadowrun itself already does a good job of doing this. The only reason why Shadowrun isn't as controversial as GURPS Cyberpunk is because it mixed Tolkienesque fantasy with it's game world. Shadowrun has made a lot of 'predictions' of what it would be like to live in a 1984, a Neuromancer, or Brave New World -- type setting. Besides, Steve Jackson Games was indicted and did win their criminal court case over the book (the Gov. thought that it actually instructions on hacking).
What the game is centered on is Man vs. Society. Not the best of society, but the worst of society. If you look at the links on Business Insider, you'll find links to the earning inequality in America (I read it, it's a Classical Liberal take on what happened). For the most part, the world of Shadowrun (2050 to 2073), if you take away the technology and Tolkienesque element, describes America in 2012. In 1989, this game came out and made stark predictions that we didn't realize that would come true since it is all covered with an element of fantasy.
All of those secret groups, you want the Missions team to write about them? I don't think that will be wise. I think the Missions team would have a better time of it if they just present the Missions as they have been doing. If you want people to wake up, you don't need a RPG game to do that. And for the most part, a lot of people are waking up.
After all, we in the fiction business do write lies. We write unrealism in our products for a reason. I think Shadowrun had to come out like it did. It came out at precisely the right time in 1989. It had precisely the right authors to author and give shape to it. It's speculative fiction, but it's mostly true now. So, the authors did take the real world, saw the trends as to where we are headed, and created a game with a fantasy element and it became successful.
If you want more Shadowrun adventures to deal with the Real World in 2012, more power to you. There's nothing stopping you from creating such adventures for your group. But the number one goal for any company is to make money. Catalyst Game Labs is no exception to this, and as long as the majority wants something like how the Missions are written now, then that's what they will produce. If you would like more realistic variety in the Missions products, then you are doing the right thing and creating awareness. But remember, Catalyst Game Labs is a company and it's number one goal is to make money, and if they can do it solving a problem and producing a product that people enjoy; well more power to them.
If people enjoy the Missions as they are written now, then hey I am all for Catalyst Game Labs writing the game and earning they need to be in business. As long as they keep their products top notch and in production, I see no reason for them to not be successful. I think Shadowrun, in terms of milleu, is realistic enough. I may be idealistic and think that "Intellectual Property" laws has outlived their usefulness because we have the most perfect Copying Machine money can buy, but I know that there are people who earn money from producing Shadowrun right now and sometimes you need to realize that Realistic isn't always best.
(since I was smited, I might as well put down my full feelings about this topic).
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OCCUPY ORK UNDERGROUND!!!
;D
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to Hermes, Why did you assume i was angry? i have no idea where you got that from in my last post. Other then that I have no idea what you just said or are trying to say. Illuminated? Are you trying to say Illuminati? What's plan 9? Are you talking about the 1950's sci-fi in space? Why you qouted that of all things I said is off to me, because it references a thought about hey maybe they cant disclose information even in a fiction kinda of way. Any case writers even bull himself stated why mission's are the way they are. Please clarify or write a little more so I can figure out what you are trying to say. I am not being mean i legitimately don't understand.
Yes I understand Shadowrun is fiction Hermes, alot of well known writers/authors/movie makers do research into the subjects they wish to bring to their audience. Even GM's do it. I was cross referencing Shadorun and the real world for similarity, nothing more. Maybe if you would of clicked the links you would of came to that point. If anything you might be able to steal ideas for a game, or at the very least check out some tech and how it works to adapt it to shadowrun.
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Plan 9 (who took his username off of the mentioned movie) is a Transhuman Shadowtalker who often comes off as a conspiracy nut, but seems to hit the mark far too accurately.
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Yes, which is why he's better than David Icke in our universe.
If anything you might be able to steal ideas for a game, or at the very least check out some tech and how it works to adapt it to shadowrun.
Yes, I understand why you linked them. but you wanted more realism in adventures such as the Missions series. I called for more realism like you did (more or less), and I got smitten. It's not impossible for GMs to do research for their own personal games. It's just that Catalyst Game Labs are a business, and they need to make money.
My point is, I'm sure that the Missions director is spot on in having the line work for more of a larger audience. Illuminated Adventures Missions-style where the runners go to crack the door open on the Bilderburgs or spy on Bohemian Grove during the sacrifice to Molech would be too niche.
However, adventures where the runners are hired to go in and steal the latest plans for phono weapons, whether they are ultrasonic SASERs (Sound Amplification through Stimulation of Electromagnetic Radiation) or speaker guns, from Ares Macrotechnology would not be too niche for Missions -- such technology has been used since the 1930s and 40s. Application of such technology against US citizens have been investigated by former Governor Jesse Ventura.
Let me see if I can find the actual Episode of Conspiracy Theory: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WaHmbki_VHQ
Shadowrunners are often sent against other Corporations all the time. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCFlPnViIPA
There are a lot of things that go on today that can be used for Adventure fodder.
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Well, the matter is up to Bull, so take it up with him.
Up close and personal.
He'll be at GenCon. ;D
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Thank you for reiterating what I been saying and catching on so fast. Data mine stuff and twist it to play in Shadowrun. I'll try to be be a bit more clearer next time since your now taking it to heights I never intended. Well posts ago, I got my answer of why missions cant be more realistic. What about a mission line or a source book, that had a gritty feel? I would say test the waters with a mission and see what happens if it moves then design a product line or source book
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Thank you for reiterating what I been saying and catching on so fast. Data mine stuff and twist it to play in Shadowrun. I'll try to be be a bit more clearer next time since your now taking it to heights I never intended. Well posts ago, I got my answer of why missions cant be more realistic. What about a mission line or a source book, that had a gritty feel? I would say test the waters with a mission and see what happens if it moves then design a product line or source book
That might be an idea worth looking at. A book that looked at different ways to play Shadowrun, maybe similar to the Shadowrun Mission book in 3rd edition. SOmething that covers a few different variations:
- Epic - the runners are players in the game, not pawns. Runs against megacorp HQ, taking down a great dragon etc. Hints and tips on how the play a game at this level
- Streets of the Metroplex - gritty, realistic, lethal, how to handle full on realism, optional rules to make combat etc more leathal and realistic
- Sci-Fi - Runners in space, more high tech, etc, running a campaign thats more science fiction / space opera
- Gangs of Seattle - campaigning at the ganger level, gaining turf, making deals, forming alliances, dealing with the man, what happens when your ganger runs against corporate shadowrunners
- Corporate Shadowrunners - How to run a company man type campaign
- Monster Hunter - how to increase focus on magic and mystical threats
Could include a summary of optional rules appropriate to each type of campaign?
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OCCUPY ORK UNDERGROUND!!!
;D
Do NOT give Bull any more ideas...Me on the other hand... 8)
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OCCUPY ORK UNDERGROUND!!!
;D
Do NOT give Bull any more ideas...Me on the other hand... 8)
I try to give everyone ideas.
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to Black, The epic, sci-fi and monster hunt together in a sourcebook along with some other stuff would be cool, its a good idea. Only problem i see with a sourcebook like missions book is if it covers to many directions then the rest of it will suffer. Example, You see the sourcebook, your going for the high sci-fi lets say, ok. You open it up find your chapter and not much there like 10-15 pages on that subject plus fluff. Would you buy it? See what i am saying if they go into to many directions.
If they do a sourcebook on anything it should have meat in it. Hey maybe you don't happen to like everything, maybe you will not use everything but at least plenty of meat to pick up and slap on your plate, and in your game.
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OK what about a source book that covered the getting by in a gritty future. Organized crime, police dealings. Doing corporate runs with high security. How to get around wi-fi tracking and staying off the grid. loaded with details not just fluff. A section on GMing it along with some optional rules.
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Legion: Most of what you're looking for and wanting from Shadowrun is really outside the scope of the Missions Living Campaign. I'd suggest starting up some new threads in the main Shadowrun discussion area and asking there, you'll likely get more response.
This particular sub-forum is specifically for running and playing the Shadowrun Missions Living Campaign Adventures.
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Yeah, 99 Bottles might be more of your style.
As for the Realism aspect, I personal figure a lot of the 'little touches' are just glossed over and are part of the lifestyle costs. Low lifestyles are in areas where the big guys aren't looking. You aren't 'on the grid' really and get the pros and cons to live with it. The higher ones you have those sins.
As for the 'Big Brother', it's true there is a lot of tech to be big Brother, but the other problem is (or perk) is it's not just 1 Big brother but tons. And so if Ares catches you looking suspicious on one of their drones but you hit a NeoNet place...why would they share that info? Would they even KNOW NeoNet was hit?
Add in the fact that 'don't kill the messenger' where the Runners are basically the Temp Employee work force of the world. Why smear you today when instead I could hire you tomorrow? Especilaly if you slip to those dystopian areas of urban life where it looks like modern Detroit and trying to hunt down a few professional Spec-Op agents (which are what Shadowruns basically are) just seems like an extensive waste of manpower for damn near anything. Add in data bloat because they are watching EVERYTHING that means they have to sort through everything when they want to find the Needle of the Day.
I also look at it much like I look at social skills on PC's. If a PC has amazing charisma and social skill levels, I take everything the player says in the best light possible, even if the PLAYER isn't as socially adept as their character. And vice versa for the well spoken player playing the 1 Cha 1 Ettiqute character. I hear what they say, run it through the 'reality filter' and react accordingly. I also figure the character take smart steps to cover their tracks at all points without forcing them to belabor the point.
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What about the Impossible Pink Burn Team? ;D
You don't want to know about them.
Great Dragons don't want to know about them.
Ok, now I'm intrigued and want to know! ???
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I also look at it much like I look at social skills on PC's. If a PC has amazing charisma and social skill levels, I take everything the player says in the best light possible, even if the PLAYER isn't as socially adept as their character. And vice versa for the well spoken player playing the 1 Cha 1 Ettiqute character. I hear what they say, run it through the 'reality filter' and react accordingly. I also figure the character take smart steps to cover their tracks at all points without forcing them to belabor the point.
Good advice there.