[Novocrane]

I'd assume Chandra has it right for SA Burst. Otherwise, my guess goes to something Agility based. Either way it looks pretty neatly tied together. Simple Actions get to take multiple targets by dual wielding and an additional free action. Complex Actions don't require dual wielding, (except fire full auto?) but still use a free action. Casting reverses the trend, with the Simple Action taking more drain and being able to take multiple targets.

[Mara]

Ok, taking a look at the sample characters in the last two previews, I am noticing a significant increase in the base DVs of
weapons, and an increase in the armour. Also, the weapon Accuracies seem to be pretty high.  I rarely see someone rolling more then 5 or so hits in the current edition, and that the dicepools are lessened I do not see the rediculously high Accuracies showing
on things like the Colt America(Acc 7) or the Predator V with Smartlink(also Acc 7) as ever going to use up all their accuracy limits.

[Michael Chandra]

Based on the German Quickstart rules, confirmed by these weapon stats, Weapon DV is up 50%, Melee Base DV is up 100%, Armor is up 50%.

As for Accuracy: 15 dice and 7 Accuracy leaves you at <1/10 of losing 1+ hits: <2/30 of losing 1 hit and <1/30 of losing 2+ hits. 6(+2) dice from Skill, 7 from Attribute puts you there. With the 10% aim, 9 Accuracy is enough for up to 20 dice, so if we can boost Accuracy to there we're comfortable for a long while.

Rough guideline: Half your dicepool. That's the Accuracy you want.

[Icy]

This looks fine. I like the change to physical damage overflow and bleeding out. The new electricity damage rules seem a lot more balanced too.

One question though: Why willpower for full defense?

[Mara]

One question though: Why willpower for full defense?

So Willpower matters? I mean, really, Willpower is usually one of the least important attibutes in Shadowrun.

[Dragonslayer]

I have two question (I realize this may not be answered due to NDA).

The first is why does the Gunslinger have Recoil Reduction on his Single Shot Shotgun?

The second, shouldn't the Yamaha Raiden have a (d) for Drum in it's stat block, instead of (b) for Break Action?

[Shinobi Killfist]

This looks fine. I like the change to physical damage overflow and bleeding out. The new electricity damage rules seem a lot more balanced too.

One question though: Why willpower for full defense?

I am not sure about electricity being more balanced, while before you got hit with a -2 die penalty you at least had a test to avoid the stun part.  This version there is no test to avoid the -5 drop in initiative, the continuing fire damage has a test to resist, the armor destruction of cold has a test to resist(WTF my armor jacket breaks?) but the big gun of electricity has no test to resist, and -5 will very frequently cause you to lose a pass.

[Shinobi Killfist]

I have two question (I realize this may not be answered due to NDA).

The first is why does the Gunslinger have Recoil Reduction on his Single Shot Shotgun?

The second, shouldn't the Yamaha Raiden have a (d) for Drum in it's stat block, instead of (b) for Break Action?

1.  Maybe in world flavor. "While this shotgun can deliver one of the most powerful in its class kicks to your enemy you wont feel the kick on your shoulder"
2.  Maybe its a break action drum?

[MadBear]

Shinobi, in 4th you took the penalty even if you didn't take any damage from the attack, now you only get the penalty if you take damage. I like that better. Fire damage is cleared up, base DV of 3. That helps clear things up. In my current campaign, we have a Phys Ad who uses fire attacks, and it's been a pain to adjudicate exactly how that works. Best we had figured out was she does damage as an unarmed attack, but it's fire damage instead. This is much more clear.
Dragonslayer, I would guess the recoil comp on the shotgun is because it seems you suffer recoil for consecutive shots over multiple initiative passes now, not just for the same pass. Previously you could fire that shotgun twice in one pass, taking two simple actions, where now it looks like you have to take a complex action to us semi auto burst fire, which could be a double tap or an actual three shot burst, I will have to see the rest of the rules to see. Either way you could suffer recoil with that shotgun, so yeah I would put some recoil comp on such a weapon.
I have to say, I really don't like how they worked that. Double tapping with two simple actions has been an integral part of the game from the start, and this change seems needlessly complex. If it aint broke don't fix it, and I say it wasn't broke before.

[Bull]

I have two question (I realize this may not be answered due to NDA).

The first is why does the Gunslinger have Recoil Reduction on his Single Shot Shotgun?

Because Recoil carries over action to action now.  So if I fire a gun with one recoil, and only fire a single bullet (Whether SA or SS) each pass, Pass 1 would be zero recoil, Pass two would be 1 recoil, reduced by 1 to zero), pass three would be 2 recoil (reduced by one, so 1 recoil), etc.  Unless you have a lot of recoil mods, it's really hard to just empty a clip into someone now.  if you take a pass without firing, it resets the recoil.

So even for those SS weapons, recoil can come into play now, as it should.

[Michael Chandra]

Huh, weird that it only mentioned cumulative recoil for the complex actions then.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Shinobi, in 4th you took the penalty even if you didn't take any damage from the attack, now you only get the penalty if you take damage. I like that better. Fire damage is cleared up, base DV of 3. That helps clear things up. In my current campaign, we have a Phys Ad who uses fire attacks, and it's been a pain to adjudicate exactly how that works. Best we had figured out was she does damage as an unarmed attack, but it's fire damage instead. This is much more clear.
Dragonslayer, I would guess the recoil comp on the shotgun is because it seems you suffer recoil for consecutive shots over multiple initiative passes now, not just for the same pass. Previously you could fire that shotgun twice in one pass, taking two simple actions, where now it looks like you have to take a complex action to us semi auto burst fire, which could be a double tap or an actual three shot burst, I will have to see the rest of the rules to see. Either way you could suffer recoil with that shotgun, so yeah I would put some recoil comp on such a weapon.
I have to say, I really don't like how they worked that. Double tapping with two simple actions has been an integral part of the game from the start, and this change seems needlessly complex. If it aint broke don't fix it, and I say it wasn't broke before.

While it is true you took a penalty even when you didn't take damage with its 1/2 armor benefit it was pretty dang rare for someone not to take at least 1 box of damage from a shot whether SnS or a spell. -1 die -5 init with no resist on 1 box or more damage seems just as powerful to me as -2 dice and a fairly simple test to avoid the stunning effect on just needing to hit.

We will have to see on SS weapons and recoil, while it piles up over passes I'd assume its fairly easy to reset.  If it takes a full pass to reset sure recoil comp away on the single shot guns, but if it takes a full pass to reset I don't see anyone using autofire unless RC can get much higher than before without cheese or autofire is vastly more effective than 4e.  If its a simple action or less to reset SS weapons wont need much in the way of RC if any but hey it can't hurt. It seems like a lot to track honestly, while the matric supposedly got easier and more streamlined it sounds like other parts are more complicated.

[MadBear]

While it is true you took a penalty even when you didn't take damage with its 1/2 armor benefit it was pretty dang rare for someone not to take at least 1 box of damage from a shot whether SnS or a spell. -1 die -5 init with no resist on 1 box or more damage seems just as powerful to me as -2 dice and a fairly simple test to avoid the stunning effect on just needing to hit.

We will have to see on SS weapons and recoil, while it piles up over passes I'd assume its fairly easy to reset.  If it takes a full pass to reset sure recoil comp away on the single shot guns, but if it takes a full pass to reset I don't see anyone using autofire unless RC can get much higher than before without cheese or autofire is vastly more effective than 4e.  If its a simple action or less to reset SS weapons wont need much in the way of RC if any but hey it can't hurt. It seems like a lot to track honestly, while the matric supposedly got easier and more streamlined it sounds like other parts are more complicated.

I agree with you there. I thought it worked just fine before. Two simple actions meant two shots or two bursts. Done. Easy. End of story. Now you have to decide if it's a simple action or a complex action, etc. Needlessly complex. And with Semi Auto Burst, you will now be limited to double tapping(or an actual 3 shot burst, who knows) against a single target. Nobody ever really splits their dice pool to attack two targets. Before you would only take a small penalty for shooting the second target. What all this seems to be doing is slowing down the action. Few shots, fewer targets. I don'e like that. Especially when compared to how many IPs hackers get, and mages now get two IPs when in astral?

I don't have a problem with the change to electrical attacks, personally. In this case it does seem simplified. One roll, not two, that being your initial damage resistance check, instead of a soak roll AND an effect resistance. Just my opinion,

[Michael Chandra]

I like the idea that everyone gets only 1 attack. It means a few things. First of, fights will last longer. Second, weaker partymembers actually still get to fire. Third, it means Melee and Magic now get to hit as many people as Firearms. This is a serious rebalance of the game and definitely will be one of the bigger differences between SR4 and SR5. Combined with Reaction+Intuition on dodge, assuming that information is still correct, and the removal of most if not all dicepool bonuses, gone are the 1-second gunfights. Instead, even a few mooks take time to butcher and a fight with worthy adversaries will last long enough that considering to run away is actually an option. If you hit it's more lethal, but you'll hit less and fire less often.

[MadBear]

I like the idea that everyone gets only 1 attack. It means a few things. First of, fights will last longer. Second, weaker partymembers actually still get to fire. Third, it means Melee and Magic now get to hit as many people as Firearms. This is a serious rebalance of the game and definitely will be one of the bigger differences between SR4 and SR5. Combined with Reaction+Intuition on dodge, assuming that information is still correct, and the removal of most if not all dicepool bonuses, gone are the 1-second gunfights. Instead, even a few mooks take time to butcher and a fight with worthy adversaries will last long enough that considering to run away is actually an option. If you hit it's more lethal, but you'll hit less and fire less often.

eeeeehh.... mostly. Having never been in a gun fight, I have to rely on movies and how I imagine it would go. And I'm sorry, but you can pull the trigger a LOT faster than you can punch. Even if you're Bruce Lee.... And that comparison doesn't break down when considering augmented sams and multiple initiative passes. If I can't fire my gun six times in three seconds(three initiative passes, two simple actions for each) then you certainly can't deliver three distinct melee attacks in that same time. Guns will always, and should always, be a lot more deadly than attacking with melee weapons. Otherwise, why would they have been invented and increased in popularity they way they did? Because they're more deadly than a sword.