Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => General Discussion => Topic started by: bannockburn on <06-11-13/1613:44>
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Parts of the combat chapter and a gunslinger adept.
I'll just leave that here.
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/115537/Shadowrun%2C-Fifth-Edition-Preview-%234?filters=0_0_1700_0_0_0
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Indeed...just noticed that as well. Thanks
Edit - quite like the art for the gunslinger adept ;D
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This answered my queries about how Armor was changed. I wonder why they decided to just lump Ballistic and Impact into just Armor?
Also, the Gunslinger is gawjus.
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My guess: To cut off the constant munchkining of the two that people kept doing, and to keep things simple and easy to get into.
Trolls are slow? That's weird. Movement is much nicer now, by the way. No complicated splitting over Passes, you got a Walk allotment, a Running allotment and can generate a Sprinting allotment. On top of that, Running now has more value because it determines how many IPs you can Sprint.
I'm confused by the whole "can't do another attack action" rule. Does that mean Singleshot weapons are limited to once per Combat Turn while Semi-Automatic can fire once per Action Phase?
Meanwhile, Complex Action FA/Burst Fire indeed accumulates recoil over multiple IPs, as someone reported before from PAX East. On top of that, you can use them as Simple Action to basically do the Short/Long Burst effects from SR4. Since you can't fire them a second time that Action Phase, no cumulative recoil.
I'm not gonna draw the other conclusions here yet, but it seems like they brought everyone except Magicians back to 1 attack per IP, while a Magician will find it to hurt like hell to do 2 attacks, what with Force as Drain base value and +3 Drain for Reckless Spellcasting. (This is based on other information, not Preview #4)
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Magicians don't have to cast twice when using reckless spellcasting. My personal favorite combo is reckless cast, get the hell outta Dodge.
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They don't have to, Aaron, but they appear to be the only ones capable of doing 2 attacks per Initiative Pass.
Also, just noticed something: Skill Group 5 at chargen. Wowzers.
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Love the troll pic in the package. Thumbs up to the artist.
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Interrupt actions... Very interesting. I wonder how much they will affect the game?
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Liking the change to bows, and the reckless spellcasting option.
Really like the Interrupt actions as a system. Given that the Dodge action uses Gymnastics it seems like the Dodge skill has gone the way of the dodo, which is probably good. The change to full defense is interesting, I think I like it.
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Liking the change to bows, and the reckless spellcasting option.
Really like the Interrupt actions as a system. Given that the Dodge action uses Gymnastics it seems like the Dodge skill has gone the way of the dodo, which is probably good. The change to full defense is interesting, I think I like it.
Interesting yeah, but I suspect that a lot of the munchkins optimizers on the forums will be telling people to stack Initiative to hell and back and Full Defense every Turn.
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Dodge skill has gone the way of the dodo, which is probably good. The change to full defense is interesting, I think I like it.
1 less skill to spend points on... Perfect 8).
This part is also funny: P.169 'too much can make Joe Shadowrunner
look like the SoyPuff Marshmallow Man'
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Liking the change to bows, and the reckless spellcasting option.
Really like the Interrupt actions as a system. Given that the Dodge action uses Gymnastics it seems like the Dodge skill has gone the way of the dodo, which is probably good. The change to full defense is interesting, I think I like it.
Interesting yeah, but I suspect that a lot of the munchkins optimizers on the forums will be telling people to stack Initiative to hell and back and Full Defense every Turn.
You still need alot of willpower for this to be effective though. Also if i paid to get extra inittiative why would i not get that advantage?
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Liking the change to bows, and the reckless spellcasting option.
Really like the Interrupt actions as a system. Given that the Dodge action uses Gymnastics it seems like the Dodge skill has gone the way of the dodo, which is probably good. The change to full defense is interesting, I think I like it.
Interesting yeah, but I suspect that a lot of the munchkins optimizers on the forums will be telling people to stack Initiative to hell and back and Full Defense every Turn.
You still need alot of willpower for this to be effective though. Also if i paid to get extra inittiative why would i not get that advantage?
Just seems like a potential bit of cheese. For the most part it won't be that big a deal, but with some I can see a few problems arising.
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They don't have to, Aaron, but they appear to be the only ones capable of doing 2 attacks per Initiative Pass.
Also, just noticed something: Skill Group 5 at chargen. Wowzers.
Yah, that seems off to me. I can fire once and get another simple action but I can't use it to fire again? What is the difference in SS and SA then? And 2 spells is okay when 2 pistol shots isn't? Don't get me wrong without knowing the extra drain of reckelss and base drain of spell casting reckless casting might be kind of rare. But it seems weird I can throw 2 fireballs but not pull the trigger twice.
While the pic is good I am kind of disapointed with the adept in that it looks like none of the powers he has that are 4e powers have a different PP cost than 4e. If that stays the same I'll be irritated that adept focuses are really a patch for the core problem of the damn powers costing too much. Fix he core issure instead of narowing the style of adept into tatooed focus adicts.
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They don't have to, Aaron, but they appear to be the only ones capable of doing 2 attacks per Initiative Pass.
Also, just noticed something: Skill Group 5 at chargen. Wowzers.
Yah, that seems off to me. I can fire once and get another simple action but I can't use it to fire again? What is the difference in SS and SA then? And 2 spells is okay when 2 pistol shots isn't? Don't get me wrong without knowing the extra drain of reckelss and base drain of spell casting reckless casting might be kind of rare. But it seems weird I can throw 2 fireballs but not pull the trigger twice.
While the pic is good I am kind of disapointed with the adept in that it looks like none of the powers he has that are 4e powers have a different PP cost than 4e. If that stays the same I'll be irritated that adept focuses are really a patch for the core problem of the damn powers costing too much. Fix he core issure instead of narowing the style of adept into tatooed focus adicts.
As far as I can tell the only way to make multiple attacks in a single action phase is with the Multiple Attacks free action modifier which requires die splitting. The only thing that seems unclear is whether Quickdraw is an "attack action."
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At least it wouldn't be that hard to house rule that "one attack action" thing away...
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What is the difference in SS and SA then?
Fire Long Burst or Semi-Auto Burst (complex action)
I dunno, chief. Think the latter part of that might be relevant?
The only thing I'm inclined to house rule is the standard glitch of Quick Draw; from a Simple Action to a Complex Action.
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At least it wouldn't be that hard to house rule that "one attack action" thing away...
I'll have to see how it plays. I sort of like it on first reading. My hope would be that it would encourage less "stand and shoot" combat, if it became irksome it could certainly be house ruled out.
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At least it wouldn't be that hard to house rule that "one attack action" thing away...
I'll have to see how it plays. I sort of like it on first reading. My hope would be that it would encourage less "stand and shoot" combat, if it became irksome it could certainly be house ruled out.
With some groups "stand and shoot" is perfectly fine, and with some one needs to get behind cover and fire from there. It's all in style, and that is where it should stay.
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At least it wouldn't be that hard to house rule that "one attack action" thing away...
I'll have to see how it plays. I sort of like it on first reading. My hope would be that it would encourage less "stand and shoot" combat, if it became irksome it could certainly be house ruled out.
With some groups "stand and shoot" is perfectly fine, and with some one needs to get behind cover and fire from there. It's all in style, and that is where it should stay.
Meh, mechanical effectiveness influences play style in either direction. I suspect I will like this style better and if you don't you can house rule it. Neither choice is neutral. You have a tendency to make your opinion sound a lot like an absolute statement.
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How in the bloody heck do you get a freaking "absolute statement" out of saying that people should be able to choose the play style they want without one or the other being edged out by a new rule?
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It's all in style, and that is where it should stay.
Whichever rule they had adopted it would have impacted the way people play, the fact that you prefer the current style doesn't make it preferable. I suspect I'll like the way this plays better. Maybe its because my group plays a bunch of different systems with the same crew but you can totally see the way mechanics impact flow if you pay attention.
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They don't have to, Aaron, but they appear to be the only ones capable of doing 2 attacks per Initiative Pass.
Also, just noticed something: Skill Group 5 at chargen. Wowzers.
Yah, that seems off to me. I can fire once and get another simple action but I can't use it to fire again? What is the difference in SS and SA then? And 2 spells is okay when 2 pistol shots isn't? Don't get me wrong without knowing the extra drain of reckelss and base drain of spell casting reckless casting might be kind of rare. But it seems weird I can throw 2 fireballs but not pull the trigger twice.
While the pic is good I am kind of disapointed with the adept in that it looks like none of the powers he has that are 4e powers have a different PP cost than 4e. If that stays the same I'll be irritated that adept focuses are really a patch for the core problem of the damn powers costing too much. Fix he core issure instead of narowing the style of adept into tatooed focus adicts.
As far as I can tell the only way to make multiple attacks in a single action phase is with the Multiple Attacks free action modifier which requires die splitting. The only thing that seems unclear is whether Quickdraw is an "attack action."
So lets see dimished pool size and splitting your pool against targets with 2 stat defense. Yeah that seems like a totally valid tactic. It seems much less dynamic to me.
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It's all in style, and that is where it should stay.
Whichever rule they had adopted it would have impacted the way people play, the fact that you prefer the current style doesn't make it preferable. I suspect I'll like the way this plays better. Maybe its because my group plays a bunch of different systems with the same crew but you can totally see the way mechanics impact flow if you pay attention.
I think his point is his preferred style leaves other options open, this style forces a particular style. Forcing is generally seem as worse than influencing.
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It's all in style, and that is where it should stay.
Whichever rule they had adopted it would have impacted the way people play, the fact that you prefer the current style doesn't make it preferable. I suspect I'll like the way this plays better. Maybe its because my group plays a bunch of different systems with the same crew but you can totally see the way mechanics impact flow if you pay attention.
I think his point is his preferred style leaves other options open, this style forces a particular style. Forcing is generally seem as worse than influencing.
The way that's more open to multiple play styles is preferable to me, yes.
What's really weird is that he is so busy trying to make me sound like an arse that he doesn't even realize that the "stand and shoot" he seems to hate so much would be more encouraged by the new way. Less attacks mean less chance of taking damage, which would lead to feeling "more ballsy" and standing out in the open rather than taking cover.
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Honestly what are you doing with your other simple action. Lets say you grab cover in pass one and shoot with your other SA, pass 2 you already grabbed cover, what are you doing, aiming every turn I mean woo hoo for that and observe in detail, or do I actually have to keep using a SA to stay in cover because you know if I don't take an action I am just going to stand up out of that cover.
Also why is quick draw a SA, yeah I get it included a shoot action but what if I just want to quick draw as part of an action unrelated to shooting like intimidate or just flash.
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It's all in style, and that is where it should stay.
Whichever rule they had adopted it would have impacted the way people play, the fact that you prefer the current style doesn't make it preferable. I suspect I'll like the way this plays better. Maybe its because my group plays a bunch of different systems with the same crew but you can totally see the way mechanics impact flow if you pay attention.
I think his point is his preferred style leaves other options open, this style forces a particular style. Forcing is generally seem as worse than influencing.
And my point is that neither rule closes off the other option, they just each influence one way or the other. There's nothing stopping you from standing and shooting under the new rule, you just don't suffer a 50% damage reduction for doing anything but shooting.
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Drawing a weapon normally is the "ready weapon" simple action. The confusing part of the "only one attack" rule is that it makes SS and SA weapons functionally the same. But if you are stuck with only one attack (and there is nothing indicating that spells are an exception to that rule), there are plenty of non-attack simple actions, taking cover and observing in detail being probably the top two.
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Drawing a weapon normally is the "ready weapon" simple action. The confusing part of the "only one attack" rule is that it makes SS and SA weapons functionally the same. But if you are stuck with only one attack (and there is nothing indicating that spells are an exception to that rule), there are plenty of non-attack simple actions, taking cover and observing in detail being probably the top two.
Or moving, I suspect that position will be more important under this rule set. Especially when options like Intercept as an interrupt get added in. Note that there are still complex options for bursts.
I also don't think we've seen the weapon mode rules yet and there may be other things going on with SS weapons.
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Two options. 1: Single-Shot is once per Combat Turn, vs Semi-Automatic once per Action Phase. 2: Both are once per Action Phase, but Semi-Automatic gets the option of doing a burst for a Complex Action.
So here's my guesses:
SS: PERHAPS once per Combat Turn, likely just once per action phase.
SA: Either 1 bullet as Simple, or a 3-bullet burst as Complex Action.
BF: SB for a Simple Action, or LB for a Complex Action.
FA: LB for a Simple Action, or FB for a Complex Action.
Any weapon used in a Complex Action multiple Passes in a row has its previous recoil added up. So if you have a Semi-Automatic weapon with 2 Recoil compensation, that first Semi-Auto Burst will be fine but the next Initiative Pass you'd start taking penalties.
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Anyway, I missed the part where it says you can only do 1 Attack Action per Action Phase, which also applies to Spellcasting. This means Spellcasting, Melee and Ranged all do 1 attack per Initiative Pass now, which makes it easier to balance their combat potential.
Add to that the rumored Reaction+Intuition dodgepool against both melee and ranged attacks, and suddenly we got gunfights that actually last multiple Combat Turns, rather than a single Initiative Pass. It also makes that extra Initiative Pass that more valuable, since you can't just use it defensively, it also gives you a chance to exhaust an opponent's dodge pool so you can actually slaughter them faster.
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I'd assume Chandra has it right for SA Burst. Otherwise, my guess goes to something Agility based. Either way it looks pretty neatly tied together. Simple Actions get to take multiple targets by dual wielding and an additional free action. Complex Actions don't require dual wielding, (except fire full auto?) but still use a free action. Casting reverses the trend, with the Simple Action taking more drain and being able to take multiple targets.
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Ok, taking a look at the sample characters in the last two previews, I am noticing a significant increase in the base DVs of
weapons, and an increase in the armour. Also, the weapon Accuracies seem to be pretty high. I rarely see someone rolling more then 5 or so hits in the current edition, and that the dicepools are lessened I do not see the rediculously high Accuracies showing
on things like the Colt America(Acc 7) or the Predator V with Smartlink(also Acc 7) as ever going to use up all their accuracy limits.
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Based on the German Quickstart rules, confirmed by these weapon stats, Weapon DV is up 50%, Melee Base DV is up 100%, Armor is up 50%.
As for Accuracy: 15 dice and 7 Accuracy leaves you at <1/10 of losing 1+ hits: <2/30 of losing 1 hit and <1/30 of losing 2+ hits. 6(+2) dice from Skill, 7 from Attribute puts you there. With the 10% aim, 9 Accuracy is enough for up to 20 dice, so if we can boost Accuracy to there we're comfortable for a long while.
Rough guideline: Half your dicepool. That's the Accuracy you want.
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This looks fine. I like the change to physical damage overflow and bleeding out. The new electricity damage rules seem a lot more balanced too.
One question though: Why willpower for full defense?
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One question though: Why willpower for full defense?
So Willpower matters? I mean, really, Willpower is usually one of the least important attibutes in Shadowrun.
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I have two question (I realize this may not be answered due to NDA).
The first is why does the Gunslinger have Recoil Reduction on his Single Shot Shotgun?
The second, shouldn't the Yamaha Raiden have a (d) for Drum in it's stat block, instead of (b) for Break Action?
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This looks fine. I like the change to physical damage overflow and bleeding out. The new electricity damage rules seem a lot more balanced too.
One question though: Why willpower for full defense?
I am not sure about electricity being more balanced, while before you got hit with a -2 die penalty you at least had a test to avoid the stun part. This version there is no test to avoid the -5 drop in initiative, the continuing fire damage has a test to resist, the armor destruction of cold has a test to resist(WTF my armor jacket breaks?) but the big gun of electricity has no test to resist, and -5 will very frequently cause you to lose a pass.
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I have two question (I realize this may not be answered due to NDA).
The first is why does the Gunslinger have Recoil Reduction on his Single Shot Shotgun?
The second, shouldn't the Yamaha Raiden have a (d) for Drum in it's stat block, instead of (b) for Break Action?
1. Maybe in world flavor. "While this shotgun can deliver one of the most powerful in its class kicks to your enemy you wont feel the kick on your shoulder"
2. Maybe its a break action drum?
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Shinobi, in 4th you took the penalty even if you didn't take any damage from the attack, now you only get the penalty if you take damage. I like that better. Fire damage is cleared up, base DV of 3. That helps clear things up. In my current campaign, we have a Phys Ad who uses fire attacks, and it's been a pain to adjudicate exactly how that works. Best we had figured out was she does damage as an unarmed attack, but it's fire damage instead. This is much more clear.
Dragonslayer, I would guess the recoil comp on the shotgun is because it seems you suffer recoil for consecutive shots over multiple initiative passes now, not just for the same pass. Previously you could fire that shotgun twice in one pass, taking two simple actions, where now it looks like you have to take a complex action to us semi auto burst fire, which could be a double tap or an actual three shot burst, I will have to see the rest of the rules to see. Either way you could suffer recoil with that shotgun, so yeah I would put some recoil comp on such a weapon.
I have to say, I really don't like how they worked that. Double tapping with two simple actions has been an integral part of the game from the start, and this change seems needlessly complex. If it aint broke don't fix it, and I say it wasn't broke before.
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I have two question (I realize this may not be answered due to NDA).
The first is why does the Gunslinger have Recoil Reduction on his Single Shot Shotgun?
Because Recoil carries over action to action now. So if I fire a gun with one recoil, and only fire a single bullet (Whether SA or SS) each pass, Pass 1 would be zero recoil, Pass two would be 1 recoil, reduced by 1 to zero), pass three would be 2 recoil (reduced by one, so 1 recoil), etc. Unless you have a lot of recoil mods, it's really hard to just empty a clip into someone now. if you take a pass without firing, it resets the recoil.
So even for those SS weapons, recoil can come into play now, as it should.
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Huh, weird that it only mentioned cumulative recoil for the complex actions then.
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Shinobi, in 4th you took the penalty even if you didn't take any damage from the attack, now you only get the penalty if you take damage. I like that better. Fire damage is cleared up, base DV of 3. That helps clear things up. In my current campaign, we have a Phys Ad who uses fire attacks, and it's been a pain to adjudicate exactly how that works. Best we had figured out was she does damage as an unarmed attack, but it's fire damage instead. This is much more clear.
Dragonslayer, I would guess the recoil comp on the shotgun is because it seems you suffer recoil for consecutive shots over multiple initiative passes now, not just for the same pass. Previously you could fire that shotgun twice in one pass, taking two simple actions, where now it looks like you have to take a complex action to us semi auto burst fire, which could be a double tap or an actual three shot burst, I will have to see the rest of the rules to see. Either way you could suffer recoil with that shotgun, so yeah I would put some recoil comp on such a weapon.
I have to say, I really don't like how they worked that. Double tapping with two simple actions has been an integral part of the game from the start, and this change seems needlessly complex. If it aint broke don't fix it, and I say it wasn't broke before.
While it is true you took a penalty even when you didn't take damage with its 1/2 armor benefit it was pretty dang rare for someone not to take at least 1 box of damage from a shot whether SnS or a spell. -1 die -5 init with no resist on 1 box or more damage seems just as powerful to me as -2 dice and a fairly simple test to avoid the stunning effect on just needing to hit.
We will have to see on SS weapons and recoil, while it piles up over passes I'd assume its fairly easy to reset. If it takes a full pass to reset sure recoil comp away on the single shot guns, but if it takes a full pass to reset I don't see anyone using autofire unless RC can get much higher than before without cheese or autofire is vastly more effective than 4e. If its a simple action or less to reset SS weapons wont need much in the way of RC if any but hey it can't hurt. It seems like a lot to track honestly, while the matric supposedly got easier and more streamlined it sounds like other parts are more complicated.
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While it is true you took a penalty even when you didn't take damage with its 1/2 armor benefit it was pretty dang rare for someone not to take at least 1 box of damage from a shot whether SnS or a spell. -1 die -5 init with no resist on 1 box or more damage seems just as powerful to me as -2 dice and a fairly simple test to avoid the stunning effect on just needing to hit.
We will have to see on SS weapons and recoil, while it piles up over passes I'd assume its fairly easy to reset. If it takes a full pass to reset sure recoil comp away on the single shot guns, but if it takes a full pass to reset I don't see anyone using autofire unless RC can get much higher than before without cheese or autofire is vastly more effective than 4e. If its a simple action or less to reset SS weapons wont need much in the way of RC if any but hey it can't hurt. It seems like a lot to track honestly, while the matric supposedly got easier and more streamlined it sounds like other parts are more complicated.
I agree with you there. I thought it worked just fine before. Two simple actions meant two shots or two bursts. Done. Easy. End of story. Now you have to decide if it's a simple action or a complex action, etc. Needlessly complex. And with Semi Auto Burst, you will now be limited to double tapping(or an actual 3 shot burst, who knows) against a single target. Nobody ever really splits their dice pool to attack two targets. Before you would only take a small penalty for shooting the second target. What all this seems to be doing is slowing down the action. Few shots, fewer targets. I don'e like that. Especially when compared to how many IPs hackers get, and mages now get two IPs when in astral?
I don't have a problem with the change to electrical attacks, personally. In this case it does seem simplified. One roll, not two, that being your initial damage resistance check, instead of a soak roll AND an effect resistance. Just my opinion,
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I like the idea that everyone gets only 1 attack. It means a few things. First of, fights will last longer. Second, weaker partymembers actually still get to fire. Third, it means Melee and Magic now get to hit as many people as Firearms. This is a serious rebalance of the game and definitely will be one of the bigger differences between SR4 and SR5. Combined with Reaction+Intuition on dodge, assuming that information is still correct, and the removal of most if not all dicepool bonuses, gone are the 1-second gunfights. Instead, even a few mooks take time to butcher and a fight with worthy adversaries will last long enough that considering to run away is actually an option. If you hit it's more lethal, but you'll hit less and fire less often.
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I like the idea that everyone gets only 1 attack. It means a few things. First of, fights will last longer. Second, weaker partymembers actually still get to fire. Third, it means Melee and Magic now get to hit as many people as Firearms. This is a serious rebalance of the game and definitely will be one of the bigger differences between SR4 and SR5. Combined with Reaction+Intuition on dodge, assuming that information is still correct, and the removal of most if not all dicepool bonuses, gone are the 1-second gunfights. Instead, even a few mooks take time to butcher and a fight with worthy adversaries will last long enough that considering to run away is actually an option. If you hit it's more lethal, but you'll hit less and fire less often.
eeeeehh.... mostly. Having never been in a gun fight, I have to rely on movies and how I imagine it would go. And I'm sorry, but you can pull the trigger a LOT faster than you can punch. Even if you're Bruce Lee.... And that comparison doesn't break down when considering augmented sams and multiple initiative passes. If I can't fire my gun six times in three seconds(three initiative passes, two simple actions for each) then you certainly can't deliver three distinct melee attacks in that same time. Guns will always, and should always, be a lot more deadly than attacking with melee weapons. Otherwise, why would they have been invented and increased in popularity they way they did? Because they're more deadly than a sword.
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Oh, sure, it might not be a perfect match to current reality. But that's not what I was talking about. =)
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No, we're talking about a balance of realism and playability. And to me, without seeing the whole system, and without playing it, I'm not impressed. There are some things I do like, such as the change to initiative and clearing up how fire and electrical attacks work, but am not happy with the changes to attacks, and especially not happy with Limits and Accuracy. I just can't get past those, I hate them with a burning passion that rivals a thousand fiery suns.
I am just stating my reactions, my opinion, nothing more. And hey, this is the internet, where people come to complain or look at boobs. I see no boobs here, so complain it is. And sometimes complaints trigger interesting conversations.
I had my reservations about 4th ed, but ended up liking it. have more than reservations for 5th though... when DnD 3rd came out, I had reservations as well, and ended up loving it. Was so disappointed in 4th ed that I am skipping it entirely. I'll give SR 5th a chance, but may very well just keep playing 4th ed rules.
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I understand you're looking at things from that point of view, but I was simply looking at the potential for players in combat rulewise. And from that perspective, I like the change.
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Bull posted on Dumpshock armor encumbrance for normal armor is gone.
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I like the idea that everyone gets only 1 attack. It means a few things. First of, fights will last longer. Second, weaker partymembers actually still get to fire. Third, it means Melee and Magic now get to hit as many people as Firearms. This is a serious rebalance of the game and definitely will be one of the bigger differences between SR4 and SR5. Combined with Reaction+Intuition on dodge, assuming that information is still correct, and the removal of most if not all dicepool bonuses, gone are the 1-second gunfights. Instead, even a few mooks take time to butcher and a fight with worthy adversaries will last long enough that considering to run away is actually an option. If you hit it's more lethal, but you'll hit less and fire less often.
eeeeehh.... mostly. Having never been in a gun fight, I have to rely on movies and how I imagine it would go. And I'm sorry, but you can pull the trigger a LOT faster than you can punch. Even if you're Bruce Lee.... And that comparison doesn't break down when considering augmented sams and multiple initiative passes. If I can't fire my gun six times in three seconds(three initiative passes, two simple actions for each) then you certainly can't deliver three distinct melee attacks in that same time. Guns will always, and should always, be a lot more deadly than attacking with melee weapons. Otherwise, why would they have been invented and increased in popularity they way they did? Because they're more deadly than a sword.
I think that is an oversimplified look at why guns work.
There are a lot of factors going into weapon choice through history, and these are just a few.
1. Effectiveness vs the enemy
2. Training required to use effectively.
3. Range capabilities
4. Risk factor for the user
5. Cost
The thing is at the scale of what most people carry gun wise melee is about as deadly on a hit, melee is easier to defend against though, it requires a lot more training to be effective, even though it comes with more force it has less penatrative capabilities so the armor of that time is more effective against it, to stab someone you are in stabed back range, killing people before they get close to you stops them from stabbing you so range helps a lot etc.
On a pure phsyical trauma level swords cause just as much or more damage than most bullets, but range, training, effectiveness vs armor all make guns a better choice. In a game the training side is usually taken out though the oppsoed defense of previous editions showed this fairly well. Effectiveness vs armor? Well that is a bit harder, it depends on what the armor is designed for and honestly super sci-fi sword vs bullet of the future its up to the author. Range, well guns are still the best. You can kill people before they have the opportunity to stab you.
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Looking good.
I'm assuming that the change to one combat / firing action a phase is an attempt to stop people just blowing away multiple targets in one phase. So I assume that a SS weapon fires one bullet per action phase at one target. A semi-auto weapon fires one bullet at one target as a simple action, or two / three bullets at one target per action phase.
That makes sense to me. It's easy to pull the trigger quickly on a semi-auto and get two rounds off. But just not feasible to do that at two seperate targets. Under 4e, with three inititive passes you could shoot six different people in three seconds with a semi-auto pistol. Whereas now, you could only shoot three people in the same time.
It might be nice to wide long or full bursts allowing you to hit multiple targets at a damage penalty as a compensation maybe. Spray fire stylee.
Definitely liking virtually everything I'm seeing with 5e.
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Just for fun I spun up a character using A attrbiutes, B magic, C skills, D race human, E resources with hero builder 4e, he is like 561 BP. I based him loosely off of Alex Louis Armstrong from full metal alchemist. As a note with his strengh he could pick up things like a balistic shield and be fairly durable.
[spoiler]
Alex Louis Armstrong (Human Magician)
B 3, A 3, R 5, S 7, C 2, I 2, L 5, W 5, E 3, Ess 6, M 6, Init 7, IP 1
Condition Monitor boxes (Physical/Stun): 10/11
Armor (Ballistic/Impact): 12/12
Skills: Arcana 3, Assensing 3, Athletics Group 1, Banishing 3, Binding 2, Counterspelling 3, Enchanting 3, Etiquette 1, Perception 1, Ritual Spellcasting 3, Spellcasting 4, Stealth Group 1, Summoning 4, Unarmed Combat 6
Knowledge Skills: English N
Qualities: Exceptional Attribute: Strength, Magician
Spells: Detect Enemies, Extended, Fireball, Heal, Healthy Glow, Increase Reflexes, Levitate, Petrify
Gear:
. . Armor Jacket
. . Identity: Specify Name with Fake SIN (2), Low Lifestyle
Weapons:
. . Attack of Will (vs. Spirits) [DV 2P vs. I]
. . Hardliner Gloves [Unarmed, DV 8P vs. I]
. . Unarmed Strike [Unarmed, DV 7S vs. I]
[spoiler]
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Being able to kill at a distance without exposing yourself to counter-attack is also a good part of it.
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...I just noticed that the skill Sneaking is on the Adept's skill list. They replaced Infiltration?
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...I just noticed that the skill Sneaking is on the Adept's skill list. They replaced Infiltration?
That would be my guess.
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...I just noticed that the skill Sneaking is on the Adept's skill list. They replaced Infiltration?
Interesting. I had missed that. I can see it, though, since Infiltration is, really, more then just "sneaking" by the
word, but the skill amounts to...just that.
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Odd. Also, I don't see any OS on the commlink.
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...I just noticed that the skill Sneaking is on the Adept's skill list. They replaced Infiltration?
Interesting. I had missed that. I can see it, though, since Infiltration is, really, more then just "sneaking" by the
word, but the skill amounts to...just that.
Want to bet they combined Infiltration and Shadowing?
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The Gunslinger Adept has improved attribute agility 4. This means is agi before adept powers was 2. This would leave him with an ability score array of 3,3,3,3,2,2,2,2 which is 12 attribute points. This is BEFORE adjusting for racial bonuses! However, there is no attribute priority that gives less than 12. Seems to me like whoever made this forgot to add the elven racial bonuses...
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The Gunslinger Adept has improved attribute agility 4. This means is agi before adept powers was 2. This would leave him with an ability score array of 3,3,3,3,2,2,2,2 which is 12 attribute points. This is BEFORE adjusting for racial bonuses! However, there is no attribute priority that gives less than 12. Seems to me like whoever made this forgot to add the elven racial bonuses...
No attribute boost is a power you activate in 4e, it is not a permanent boost. He has 12 attribute points with racial mods with his given stats.
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The Gunslinger Adept has improved attribute agility 4. This means is agi before adept powers was 2. This would leave him with an ability score array of 3,3,3,3,2,2,2,2 which is 12 attribute points. This is BEFORE adjusting for racial bonuses! However, there is no attribute priority that gives less than 12. Seems to me like whoever made this forgot to add the elven racial bonuses...
No attribute boost is a power you activate in 4e, it is not a permanent boost. He has 12 attribute points with racial mods with his given stats.
Ahh, that makes way more...wait wouldn't that leave him with agi 5?
bod 3=2pts, agi 6=4pts(elf+1), rea 3=2pts, str 2=1pts
will 2=1pts, log 2=1pts, int 3=2pts, cha 3=0pts(elf+2)
2+4+2+1+1+1+2=13. Yeah, he's spending one more point. Ehh, prolly bought one of those attributes with karma.
Also, I'm wondering how he has Edge 5 despite there being no Elf(4) option. He would have had to spend karma on this, but it seems pretty spendy to increase an attribute to 5 with karma. Was he able to spend karma on edge first before using his special attribute points?
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The Gunslinger Adept has improved attribute agility 4. This means is agi before adept powers was 2. This would leave him with an ability score array of 3,3,3,3,2,2,2,2 which is 12 attribute points. This is BEFORE adjusting for racial bonuses! However, there is no attribute priority that gives less than 12. Seems to me like whoever made this forgot to add the elven racial bonuses...
No attribute boost is a power you activate in 4e, it is not a permanent boost. He has 12 attribute points with racial mods with his given stats.
Ahh, that makes way more...wait wouldn't that leave him with agi 5?
bod 3=2pts, agi 6=4pts(elf+1), rea 3=2pts, str 2=1pts
will 2=1pts, log 2=1pts, int 3=2pts, cha 3=0pts(elf+2)
2+4+2+1+1+1+2=13. Yeah, he's spending one more point. Ehh, prolly bought one of those attributes with karma.
Also, I'm wondering how he has Edge 5 despite there being no Elf(4) option. He would have had to spend karma on this, but it seems pretty spendy to increase an attribute to 5 with karma. Was he able to spend karma on edge first before using his special attribute points?
I think he went Elf A for 8 points, with magic D, 4 points to magic 4 points to edge.
So elf A, B Skills, C resources, D magic, E attributes. 1 point in attributes from Karma. A 1 from a 2 costs 10 karma in 4e, so it is fairly cheap.
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The Gunslinger Adept has improved attribute agility 4. This means is agi before adept powers was 2. This would leave him with an ability score array of 3,3,3,3,2,2,2,2 which is 12 attribute points. This is BEFORE adjusting for racial bonuses! However, there is no attribute priority that gives less than 12. Seems to me like whoever made this forgot to add the elven racial bonuses...
No attribute boost is a power you activate in 4e, it is not a permanent boost. He has 12 attribute points with racial mods with his given stats.
Ahh, that makes way more...wait wouldn't that leave him with agi 5?
bod 3=2pts, agi 6=4pts(elf+1), rea 3=2pts, str 2=1pts
will 2=1pts, log 2=1pts, int 3=2pts, cha 3=0pts(elf+2)
2+4+2+1+1+1+2=13. Yeah, he's spending one more point. Ehh, prolly bought one of those attributes with karma.
Also, I'm wondering how he has Edge 5 despite there being no Elf(4) option. He would have had to spend karma on this, but it seems pretty spendy to increase an attribute to 5 with karma. Was he able to spend karma on edge first before using his special attribute points?
Remember, the special attributes offered under the racial column can be used to boost Magic/Resonance or Edge.
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I think he went Elf A for 8 points, with magic D, 4 points to magic 4 points to edge.
So elf A, B Skills, C resources, D magic, E attributes. 1 point in attributes from Karma. A 1 from a 2 costs 10 karma in 4e, so it is fairly cheap.
And it all comes together. Gotta admit, its pretty cool to see that we can make viable characters on attributes E.
Here's to hoping that the pregen characters in the book have their priority choices listed. That would help me in figuring out what I can and cannot do with the system, as well as more fully understanding what various priority values mean for a finished character.
And now for some ramblings.
This character does bring up a worry I had about limits. Here, we see a character who's urban stealth dice pool will be three times as large as its limit, all because strength seems to count most heavily in physical limits. Assuming hits work the same in 5e as they do in 4e, this means that a bit under half of this character's urban stealth rolls with be hampered by his physical limit. Not sure I'm okay with characters being too weak to be quiet. If this strangeness only happened with stealth, then I think I could get around that, but I feel as if this logical inconsistency might come up more often than I'd like.
I couldn't help but notice that the commlink just has a single device rating, and there doesn't seem to be a big of a list of matrix actions this time. Also couldn't help but notice that priority A technomancers only get 5 complex forms. Seems to me like the matrix rules are gunna get slimmed down quite a lot. I'm definitely happy about that! I'm really looking forward to seeing that they do with the matrix this time around!
Remember, the special attributes offered under the racial column can be used to boost Magic/Resonance or Edge.
I was working under the assumption that he was magic priority B. Turns out I was wrong. I must admit I'm not very good a working backwards through this priority system. It seems like priority will be great for generating characters, but its gunna be harder to see what a completed character went through to get there.
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I think he went Elf A for 8 points, with magic D, 4 points to magic 4 points to edge.
So elf A, B Skills, C resources, D magic, E attributes. 1 point in attributes from Karma. A 1 from a 2 costs 10 karma in 4e, so it is fairly cheap.
And it all comes together. Gotta admit, its pretty cool to see that we can make viable characters on attributes E.
Here's to hoping that the pregen characters in the book have their priority choices listed. That would help me in figuring out what I can and cannot do with the system, as well as more fully understanding what various priority values mean for a finished character.
And now for some ramblings.
This character does bring up a worry I had about limits. Here, we see a character who's urban stealth dice pool will be three times as large as its limit, all because strength seems to count most heavily in physical limits. Assuming hits work the same in 5e as they do in 4e, this means that a bit under half of this character's urban stealth rolls with be hampered by his physical limit. Not sure I'm okay with characters being too weak to be quiet. If this strangeness only happened with stealth, then I think I could get around that, but I feel as if this logical inconsistency might come up more often than I'd like.
I couldn't help but notice that the commlink just has a single device rating, and there doesn't seem to be a big of a list of matrix actions this time. Also couldn't help but notice that priority A technomancers only get 5 complex forms. Seems to me like the matrix rules are gunna get slimmed down quite a lot. I'm definitely happy about that! I'm really looking forward to seeing that they do with the matrix this time around!
Viable maybe, seems kind of borderline to me. Caveat of yes you can have fun playing him like you can have fun playing any character. But he has an incredibly narrow focus with his limits and dice pools and his specialty of shooting stuff he seems just okay in. A 4 limit stops him for going for any task beyond hard even ones his dice pools would indicate he might be able to pull off. So assuming gymnastics is more than just the dodge skill when trying to do anything acrobatic he will bump into tha tlimit fairly often. Mental tasks? Well limit 3 so what will he be spotting with his perception checks? Social limit of 4 is fine for him since his highest die pool is 6, but its still not great.
On another note when dropping 150,000 in nuyen maybe muscle toner would have been a better choice than attribute boost and a platnum doc wagon contract, depending on costs obviously, similarly what about synaptic accelerator. 2.5 PP to 1 essence is a bad trade. Obviously this is based on 4e info so things like essence cost, nuyen costs may have changed dramatically in either direction. And why $150,000 in nuyen? His background is street kid good with a gun, yeah people have been throwing him cash but he has got to eat.Yeah this setup got him 5 edge so that is awesome, but 12 in attributes really shows up as a big hit to viability IMO.
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all because strength seems to count most heavily in physical limits.
How do you figure? I was assuming it was simply the average of the physical attributes. 3+6+5+2=16 16/4=4.
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all because strength seems to count most heavily in physical limits.
How do you figure? I was assuming it was simply the average of the physical attributes. 3+6+5+2=16 16/4=4.
They released the formulas
Physical is (Strx2+reaction+body)/3round up. Or for him 2x2=4+3bod+5 reaciton=11/3=4.
Mental Logicx2+intuition+will/3
Social Charismax2+willpower+essence/3.
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My only issue is that I feel that stat of 2 seems a bit deficient, simply due to personal taste of going for average or better in my runners.
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I don't have a problem with a 2 stat. I will often try to deliberately engineer a 2 for every character, just to represent a weakness, and to make them more interesting. Most recently I did this with with Charisma for my Orc Sam, as my co-players are all new to the game and I thought a nice stereotype would be fun. Somehow he always ends up being the one to do the negotiations, with hilarious results. Dump stats can be fun!
I agree with Glaive. I am really hating limits. I see no reason for them at all. There are already upward limits in place, ie dice pools. Unless you pay Edge, you can't ever roll more hits than your dice pool. Most people won't be tossing 18 or 24 dice for more than one or maybe two skills, so I don't see huge numbers of success being a problem. And those one or two skills where you CAN get six or eight success on an average roll, well, shadowrunnes are extraordinary folk, with military grade implants or magical powers that SHOULD allow for results well beyond what a normal human can achieve. They re not ordinary people and should not be held to ordinary successes.
And yes, you are likely going to see me rant about this regularly, until I have a copy of 5th Ed in my hands, and suddenly fall madly in love with the idea(aint gona happen).
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Obviously this is based on 4e info so things like essence cost, nuyen costs may have changed dramatically in either direction. And why $150,000 in nuyen?
Which makes me wonder, whether we will see a price rise for everything that is not exposing to Sybil Virus.
I would think of it being a little vile;)
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I started to read this preview yesterday and think there is a mistake in this paragraph:
"Determine Initiative Scores for all the characters, critters, spirits, sprites, intrusion countermeasures (IC), and anything else involved in the fight (see Initiative, p. 159). The order in which things happen during the Action Phase is determined by Initiative Scores, going from highest first to lowest last. Initiative is fluid and changes both within a Combat Turn and between Combat Turns. Note that wound modifiers affect the Initiative Score
(see Changing Initiative, p. 160) as soon as the wound is inflicted."
I think it should read "during the Initiative Pass" or even better and righter "during the Combat turn"
Otherwise it does not make sense to me, reading what follows.