Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: ZombieAcePilot on <07-25-13/1904:13>
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Does the text on addiction tests make no sense to anyone else? I have no idea when I'm supposed to make a test. Help me out!
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My interpretation of it is as follows.
- You use a drug, thereby entering "week 1". (The rules aren't clear on where in the week you are. though: the first day? the last day? If you use the drug again 6 hours later, is that in "week 2"? Perhaps Sunday is Addiction Test Day?)
- "Decision week" is set as week (11 - Addiction Rating): that can range from week 10 for soykaf, all the way down to 2 for Kamikaze and Nitro. (Technically, it's every multiple of that number, by the way - so weeks 2, 4, 6, etc. for Kamikaze/Nitro, and weeks 10, 20, 30, etc. for soykaf.)
- At the end of each week, you follow a few steps:
- Did I use the drug at any point during this week?
- Yes: reset Addiction Threshold to the initial value. Carry on with the next step.
- No: the Addiction Threshold goes down by 1. Is it 0 now?
- Yes: you're in the clear! No need to keep track anymore.
- No: carry on with the next step.
- Is this a "Decision week"?
- Yes: Make an Addiction Test (2 if the addiction type is both psychological and physiological). Did you pass the test (or both tests)?
- Yes: congratulations! You didn't get hooked this time, but until the Threshold hits 0 or you get hooked, you'll have to continue keeping track of this. See you next week!
- No: you're now (even more) hooked. No need to keep track anymore.
- No: see you next week!
I hope that makes things a little more clear. Of course, since a picture is worth a thousand words, you could flowchart it and rub the flowchart in people's faces when they get confused (or when you want to go "Look! I have a flowchart!"), if you want.
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It took me several read througs, but I pretty much came up with the same answer as ZeConster
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(Note that using a total focus rating above magic rating might cause addiction in SR5, including but not limited to the new qi focus).
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Actually, that one's a little weird. Someone fresh out of chargen could theoretically have 6 Force 2 Qi Foci (36k + 24 Karma), which would give an Addiction Rating of 12 if all used at the same time - and the theoretical maximum is a combined Force of 30 even without raising your Magic beyond 6. At that point, (11 - Addiction Rating) gets negative. Perhaps I should ask this in the FAQ.
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My interpretation of it is as follows.
- You use a drug, thereby entering "week 1". (The rules aren't clear on where in the week you are. though: the first day? the last day? If you use the drug again 6 hours later, is that in "week 2"? Perhaps Sunday is Addiction Test Day?)
- "Decision week" is set as week (11 - Addiction Rating): that can range from week 10 for soykaf, all the way down to 2 for Kamikaze and Nitro. (Technically, it's every multiple of that number, by the way - so weeks 2, 4, 6, etc. for Kamikaze/Nitro, and weeks 10, 20, 30, etc. for soykaf.)
- At the end of each week, you follow a few steps:
- Did I use the drug at any point during this week?
- Yes: reset Addiction Threshold to the initial value. Carry on with the next step.
- No: the Addiction Threshold goes down by 1. Is it 0 now?
- Yes: you're in the clear! No need to keep track anymore.
- No: carry on with the next step.
- Is this a "Decision week"?
- Yes: Make an Addiction Test (2 if the addiction type is both psychological and physiological). Did you pass the test (or both tests)?
- Yes: congratulations! You didn't get hooked this time, but until the Threshold hits 0 or you get hooked, you'll have to continue keeping track of this. See you next week!
- No: you're now (even more) hooked. No need to keep track anymore.
- No: see you next week!
I hope that makes things a little more clear. Of course, since a picture is worth a thousand words, you could flowchart it and rub the flowchart in people's faces when they get confused (or when you want to go "Look! I have a flowchart!"), if you want.
Per your request, a breakdown of what of this I think is you house ruling. I'd like to emphasize that I don't mean this pejoratively; your interpretation is absolutely the best I've yet seen.
1A) When do you take an addiction test? Using kamikaze as our example, the answering sentence reads, "Every time you use kamikaze during 2 weeks in a row, you need to make an Addiction test." This is not a valid English sentence, and hence has no actual meaning. You are clearly attempting to fix the grammar in your solution, but that's a house rule. I think you're reading the sentence like this, which makes a LOT more sense:
"Every time you use kamikaze[, for] 2 weeks in a row, you need to make an Addiction test [every week]." Modifications in brackets. Generic version: "Every time you use an addictive substance[, for] (11-Addiction Rating) weeks in a row, you need to make an Addiction test [every week]."
2) I just don't see anything referencing that the process stops when you fail an addiction test; see here: "This means that substances with high Addiction ratings (like kamikaze) could get you hooked in a single dose." Your system, with Kamikaze, has you going up one addiction degree and then stopping, but the implication I read is that because 11-9=2<3, one dose of Kamikaze causes two tests (at 3 and 1, since I agree with your interpretation above).
I thought I saw a third issue, but on closer inspection, you had clear rules support, so my "number" of house rules ended up being very low. :-P
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1A) When do you take an addiction test? Using kamikaze as our example, the answering sentence reads, "Every time you use kamikaze during 2 weeks in a row, you need to make an Addiction test." This is not a valid English sentence, and hence has no actual meaning. You are clearly attempting to fix the grammar in your solution, but that's a house rule. I think you're reading the sentence like this, which makes a LOT more sense:
"Every time you use kamikaze[, for] 2 weeks in a row, you need to make an Addiction test [every week]." Modifications in brackets. Generic version: "Every time you use an addictive substance[, for] (11-Addiction Rating) weeks in a row, you need to make an Addiction test [every week]."
Actually, I think the sentence, while unconventional, is still valid (in fact, googling "during * weeks in a row" gives me more results than googling "for * weeks in a row"). You don't have to use the drug the entire week - a single usage at any point during the week is enough to count. So I read the sentence as "Every time you use an addictive substance [at any point] during (11 — Addiction Rating) weeks in a row".
2) I just don't see anything referencing that the process stops when you fail an addiction test; see here: "This means that substances with high Addiction ratings (like kamikaze) could get you hooked in a single dose." Your system, with Kamikaze, has you going up one addiction degree and then stopping, but the implication I read is that because 11-9=2<3, one dose of Kamikaze causes two tests (at 3 and 1, since I agree with your interpretation above).
I'm not so sure about there always being 2 tests, actually. If you only use Kamikaze once, I think it goes like this:
- Week 1: you use Kamikaze.
- End of week 1: since you used Kamikaze during the week, the threshold is 'reset' to 3.
- Week 2: you don't use Kamikaze.
- End of week 2: the threshold goes down by 1, to 2. You then make an Addiction Test, which (for the sake of this example) you pass.
- Week 3: you don't use Kamikaze.
- End of week 3: the threshold goes down by 1, to 1.
- Week 4: you don't use Kamikaze.
- End of week 4: the threshold goes down by 1, to 0 - you're in the clear.
You're still guaranteed to have to make an Addiction Test if you use Kamikaze, which I think that is what they meant with that it can get you hooked in a single dose.
I admit, though, that RAW doesn't really support my theory that failing the Addiction Test means you have to make no more tests, so it's entirely possible that instead of this:
- Week 1: you use Kamikaze.
- End of week 1: since you used Kamikaze during the week, the threshold is 'reset' to 3.
- Week 2: you use Kamikaze.
- End of week 2: since you used Kamikaze during the week, the threshold is 'reset' to 3. You then make an Addiction Test, fail, and get hooked - end of story.
This actually might happen:
- Week 1: you use Kamikaze.
- End of week 1: since you used Kamikaze during the week, the threshold is 'reset' to 3.
- Week 2: you use Kamikaze.
- End of week 2: since you used Kamikaze during the week, the threshold is 'reset' to 3. You then make an Addiction Test, fail, and get hooked - you now have a Mild Addiction.
- Week 3: you don't use Kamikaze.
- End of week 3: the threshold goes down by 1, to 2.
- Week 4: you don't use Kamikaze.
- End of week 4: the threshold goes down by 1, to 1. You then make an Addiction Test, fail, and get hooked even more, so you now have a Moderate Addiction.
I don't agree with that interpretation, though - it seems weird that you'd run the risk of getting hooked twice without using anything after getting hooked the first time, and while with Kamikaze and Nitro (the only regular substances that would run the risk of getting you hooked twice if you use during the week of the first Addiction Test) you'd still have to use the drug two times, this interpretation means it would be possible with a Focus Addiction addiction test to go from nothing to Moderate from a single over-Focus, which just doesn't feel right.
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I hope that makes things a little more clear. Of course, since a picture is worth a thousand words, you could flowchart it and rub the flowchart in people's faces when they get confused (or when you want to go "Look! I have a flowchart!"), if you want.
Thanks! You helped a lot! =)
BTW, I made a flowchart!)
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Thanks for the chart. But I don't understand what the "wait two weeks" is for...
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My understanding of the addiction rules is this:
Take a hit of a drug. Start the clock: for the next (11-Addiction Level) weeks, each time you use that drug again, you must pass a physical or mental test (or both!) with a threshold based on the drug. Each week you go without using the drug the Addiction Threshold goes down by one. When it reaches zero, you are off the hook (no more addiction tests). If you do use, after the addiction tests are rolled, both the clock and the addiction threshold reset.
An example: the Weapon Master archetype (page 118) is in a tough fight and takes a hit of Jazz to make it through. The clock starts, and she is at risk of addiction for the next (11-8=) 3 weeks. Minutes later, in yet another brutal firefight, she takes another hit, and must pass both a physical and psychological addiction test. For the physical she rolls 7 dice (Body + Willpower), and she rolls 6 dice (Logic + Willpower) for the psychological, both against a threshold of 3. With some hot dice, she passes both. (Technically, the clock and addiction threshold reset, but they did not have time to change anyway.)
Ten days pass uneventfully. The addiction threshold drops to two on day seven.
Day eleven, and another fight forces another dose. Same tests, but threshold 2. The clock is reset to another 21 days, and the addiction threshold is back to 3.
Twenty days later, another hit. The threshold is only 1, and the GM generously allows her to buy the hits. Reset the clock and threshold again.
This time she goes to ground and stays out of trouble for three weeks. She is off the clock.
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Your interpretation is flawed. It only counts towards the next addiction test if you use during that week. This is supported by the text saying that the weeks "don't need to be consecutive" + it also doesn't make sense that your risk for addiction would progress during weeks you don't use. So it would be:
Week 1: You use Kamikaze.
- Start the addiction period. (no need to "reset", since you always start at the base value).
This counts as the first week of using Kamikaze for the addiction.
Week 2: Don't use.
- Threshold drops from 3 to 2.
Week 3: Don't use.
- Threshold drops from 2 to 1.
- You're almost there!
Week 4: You use.
- Damn! You were so close!
- Threshold resets to 3.
- Since this is the second week you use in this addiction period, and Kamikazi only needs two, you make an addiction test.
- If you fail it: You gain Addiction (Mild, Kamikaze). (or it progresses one level) The current Addiction period ends, to start from week 1 again when you use next.
- If you succeed: Keep going.
Week 5: Don't use.
- Threshold drops from 3 to 2.
Week 6: Don't use.
- Threshold drops from 2 to 1.
- You're almost there!
Week 7: Don't use.
- Threshold drops from 1 to 0.
- You're in the clear! Addiction period ends and you have suffered no negative consequences.
This both makes sense and follows a literal reading of all the rules.
My understanding of the addiction rules is this:
Take a hit of a drug. Start the clock: for the next (11-Addiction Level) weeks, each time you use that drug again, you must pass a physical or mental test (or both!) with a threshold based on the drug.
Nope. The (11-addiction level) is how many weeks you must use in the addiction period to be forced to take the test. In your ruling, stronger drugs actually have a shorter time period where you could have to make a test to resist... When you do make the test, you have to beat the drug's full threshold. (since it resets when you use it) If you let the Threshold hit 0 by not using for an amount of consecutive weeks equal to the Threshold, you'r eoff the hook and the addiction period ends.
If you use again after that, you start back from week 1.
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Your interpretation is flawed. It only counts towards the next addiction test if you use during that week. This is supported by the text saying that the weeks "don't need to be consecutive" + it also doesn't make sense that your risk for addiction would progress during weeks you don't use.
Incorrect. The rules specifically state that "The clock on this keeps ticking even if you skip a week". Your interpretation goes against the book's claim that drugs like Kamikaze "could get you hooked in a single dose".
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I think you're right. That's some convoluted wording right there, though. In that case it checks out as working like your earlier assessment.
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We're puzzling with this right now as well..
Way I understand it at this moment is;
- Use Kamikaze, this is moment A
- Check 1 week later; have used than threshold resets/ haven't used threshold goes down -1
- Check 2 weeks later; have used threshold resets/ haven't used threshold -1. Either way it's Addiction Check time with a threshold varying between 1 and 3.
How do you guys deal with mentioned but unstatted addictions like smoking, alcohol, gambling etc?
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How do you guys deal with mentioned but unstatted addictions like smoking, alcohol, gambling etc?
Easy: I don't allow them as a Negative Quality. Roleplay the hell out of it, if you please, but no bonus Karma for such an addiction . That's a houserule, of course =) But there was something on that topic in the Missions hot-patch Errata, IIRC.
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Addiction: The Addiction must be to something that is either somewhat expensive, harmful to the character in the short term, and/or otherwise difficult to obtain. There are many serious, real-life examples of addictions that can be very harmful and have long-term effects on a person but would have little to no effect on a Shadowrun game, especially in the Missions format. Things like caffeine or cigarette addictions would fall into the “disallowed” category, as these can be harmful but are also legal, cheap, and easy to obtain. MMO and sex addiction likewise wouldn’t come up in play very often, other than as a minor distraction to the character. Narcotics, BTLs, and expensive gambling are all acceptable examples of Addictions that can be used in Missions.
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Way I understand it at this moment is;
- Use Kamikaze, this is moment A
- Check 1 week later; have used than threshold resets/ haven't used threshold goes down -1
- Check 2 weeks later; have used threshold resets/ haven't used threshold -1. Either way it's Addiction Check time with a threshold varying between 1 and 3.
Actually, I'm reasonably sure moment A is part of week 1.
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Way I understand it at this moment is;
- Use Kamikaze, this is moment A
- Check 1 week later; have used than threshold resets/ haven't used threshold goes down -1
- Check 2 weeks later; have used threshold resets/ haven't used threshold -1. Either way it's Addiction Check time with a threshold varying between 1 and 3.
Actually, I'm reasonably sure moment A is part of week 1.
Well, I guess you could do it that way. I don't think the text is clear enough, but since that first instance of drug use is the whole reason the Addiction tests cycle begins in the first place, I wouldn't count it as using the drugs 'another time' in that first week.
It would make drugs just that little bit harsher.. for those who want to play it that way. ;)
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Way I understand it at this moment is;
- Use Kamikaze, this is moment A
- Check 1 week later; have used than threshold resets/ haven't used threshold goes down -1
- Check 2 weeks later; have used threshold resets/ haven't used threshold -1. Either way it's Addiction Check time with a threshold varying between 1 and 3.
Actually, I'm reasonably sure moment A is part of week 1.
Well, I guess you could do it that way. I don't think the text is clear enough, but since that first instance of drug use is the whole reason the Addiction tests cycle begins in the first place, I wouldn't count it as using the drugs 'another time' in that first week.
It would make drugs just that little bit harsher.. for those who want to play it that way. ;)
To the contrary: not putting moment A in week 1 seem incredibly odd, since you did use the drugs during a week, and not putting it in week 1 would essentially make it part of a "week 0".
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I'm with ZeConster on this one.
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How do you guys deal with mentioned but unstatted addictions like smoking, alcohol, gambling etc?
Well, for the most part you don't need dice, as there are no real penalties attached (perhaps with the exception of gambling) to addiction or withdrawal, at least not that are meaningful in a rule sense.
But if you wanted to, soykaf would probably be a good starting point for comparison.
Gambling though might be interesting to have as an addiction, and I'd probably let a player explore that one if they wanted. The financial impact on severe cases would offset the reduced dice penalty type impacts...
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To the contrary: not putting moment A in week 1 seem incredibly odd, since you did use the drugs during a week, and not putting it in week 1 would essentially make it part of a "week 0".
The way I see it the first use of drugs isn't part of any week - it is one instance of druguse that initiates the whole Addiction Test clock.
Let's look at it another way. If what you say is true a character who has used drugs on day 1 of that week could use the same drug for every other day that week, without any penalty or effect on the Addiction Threshold. He would still count as 'having used in week 1'.
In my example, if the guy used Kamikaze once but then stayed clean the rest of the week, he would still risk the Addiction check at the end of the two weeks, but at least his chances have improved slightly for not using again after that first time.
By the way, I really like the idea of just using minor addicitons like smoking and soykaf just for roleplay purposes without involving the Addicition quality.
And I too would love to see some characters play out something like the gambling addiction, have to think about how to do that some more..
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To the contrary: not putting moment A in week 1 seem incredibly odd, since you did use the drugs during a week, and not putting it in week 1 would essentially make it part of a "week 0".
The way I see it the first use of drugs isn't part of any week - it is one instance of druguse that initiates the whole Addiction Test clock.
Let's look at it another way. If what you say is true a character who has used drugs on day 1 of that week could use the same drug for every other day that week, without any penalty or effect on the Addiction Threshold. He would still count as 'having used in week 1'.
In my example, if the guy used Kamikaze once but then stayed clean the rest of the week, he would still risk the Addiction check at the end of the two weeks, but at least his chances have improved slightly for not using again after that first time.
But in your example, if the character uses the drug a second time, namely during your "week 1", they can also use the drug plenty of times during that week without further penalty - the only difference is your interpretation basically gives you a 'free' extra Threshold reduction if you only use the drug once, making the 8/3 drugs safe to use, and giving the 9/3 drugs a Threshold of 1 if you only use them once, instead of 2.