[Mantis]

So basically you want the advantage of explosive rounds without the restrictions those impose. While there is a sort of precedent for this with heavy pistols what do you do with assault rifles or SMGs where there is no such precedent? Start adding it? Then you get SMGs that do assault rifle damage as standard and assault rifles that do battle rifle damage as standard. And balance goes out the window as everything scales up. (Cuz if you do it then everyone else will too). It sounds like an upscale in complexity without really adding anything to the game.
'Oh your gun takes special ammo? Well I'm not sure where to find that stuff.' says your fixer. I don't see how non-standard ammo would be easier to get than some of the other options already available. The military try to avoid this very thing by standardizing their ammo as much as possible because it is a pain in the ass to manage a bunch of different calibres that all do basically the same thing.
Lets flip this a bit and ask if you are willing to take the disadvantages that go with a bigger calibre. Smaller magazine capacity (bigger rounds equals less space in the mag) and fewer rounds carried (increased weight) along with increased recoil (cuz your pistol was never designed for that round) are all things that go along with higher calibre. So would you impose the negative aspects along with the good?
If you want it for your game, go ahead but most here will not agree that any 'uniqueness' it adds is worth the hassle.

[MadBear]

Those are excellent points Mantis.
Continuing on at this point for the sake of argument, not because I have not been convinced or am trying to convince others.
Yes, as a GM I would impose those limits, and as a player I would accept them. Those are reasonable restrictions, decreased ammo capacity and additional recoil.
As for the ad infimum up-scaling, we already have that. SMGs are pretty much just big machine pistols(with the advantage of more accessories/mods); Assault Rifles are pretty much just bigger SMGs(with even more accessories and mods), or rather carbines are just smaller assault riffles that fit into the SMG class; and Battle Rifles are just scaled up Assault Rifles. Not everybody is going to mod their weapon in such a way, for the same reason not everybody carries APDS ammo or mods their heavy pistol for Burst Fire; some can't be bothered, some don't care, some don't think it's worth the hassle or expense. But some of us do, and we like to have the option. Now, I've already done some pretty serious mods in my current campaign, and am not looking to actually do this. If was, and my GM told me 'no', I would accept that and move on without complaint.

[Mirikon]

Spare Clips: Extra ammunition clips come unloaded; they can hold the maximum rounds for the weapon and are not interchangeable from weapon to weapon even within the same class.

Ever find it weird that ammunition is standardised, but spare clips aren't?

Nope, because every weapon is different, even today.

[CanRay]

Spare Clips: Extra ammunition clips come unloaded; they can hold the maximum rounds for the weapon and are not interchangeable from weapon to weapon even within the same class.

Ever find it weird that ammunition is standardised, but spare clips aren't?

Nope, because every weapon is different, even today.

Well, not EVERY weapon.  NATO and the Warsaw Pact standardized magazines (which are called "Clips" in Shadowrun) for each side to ease logistics.

Those groups, however, are very, very dead by the 2050s, and every company has their own methods again, just like the bad old days.  Why each firearms company doesn't have a unique caliber (again, like the bad old days) is likely momentum from the Cold War when standardization of ammunition was a key point.

That's, of course, talking about purely military small arms.  Civilian ones are a hodge-podge of a dogs dinner.

[JoeNapalm]

Remember, MadBear, that whatever you convince your GM to allow for you can be used against you.

While I would love more options and realism in the weapon system, I've actually tried to encourage my GM to avoid WAR!, because I don't want the Bad Guys using that stuff.

There's usually more mooks and villians than PCs. Whatever tips the balance of power away from defense hurts the players more than the NPCs.

-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist

[Mantis]

As for the ad infimum up-scaling, we already have that. SMGs are pretty much just big machine pistols(with the advantage of more accessories/mods); Assault Rifles are pretty much just bigger SMGs(with even more accessories and mods), or rather carbines are just smaller assault riffles that fit into the SMG class; and Battle Rifles are just scaled up Assault Rifles. Not everybody is going to mod their weapon in such a way, for the same reason not everybody carries APDS ammo or mods their heavy pistol for Burst Fire; some can't be bothered, some don't care, some don't think it's worth the hassle or expense. But some of us do, and we like to have the option. Now, I've already done some pretty serious mods in my current campaign, and am not looking to actually do this. If was, and my GM told me 'no', I would accept that and move on without complaint.

For the sake of argument then, the difference comes in that SMGs are more easily hidden, acquired and in some areas less frowned upon than an assault rifle. So putting the rifle's firepower in an SMG frame makes for some balance issues. At the moment you can't really hide your assault rifle but you can an SMG with the right clothing. Assault rifles have full auto which most battle rifles do not. So scaling your assault rifle to do battle rifle damage and full auto while still being able to get all the recoil comp adds balance issues as well.
The problem with most game mods like this is that they don't always get a full look at all the balance issues. Often someone will just look at, for example, damage, and say 'hey it's not that bad. X is already like this anyway.' What they often fail to do is look at how that weapon's damage is balanced against the many other factors involved (ammo cap, inherent recoil comp, mods, availability, range, concealability, etc) and how that can throw things off.
If I can get all the firepower of an assault rifle in an SMG frame, why bother with assault rifles? They cost more generally, are much harder to hide and if firepower is equal, the only advantage they offer is range and maybe ammo cap. Yes you can do something like this already with specialized ammo but that ammo is expensive and hard to come by, as a balancing factor. Maybe you got a licence for your Ingram Smartgun X but do you have one for the APDS or EX-Explosive you have loaded in it? Not likely. So you need to decide when to load that and if the risk is worth it. Adding a calibre mod that removes that from the equation throws off the balance.
As has been pointed out, realistically there should be different calibres for firearms but to keep the game simple enough and balanced enough there aren't. Some elements of reality get removed to make the game a game rather than a reality simulator. 

[JoeNapalm]

You can make an AR pretty concealable, with the right modifications.

My Merc has one with the Conceal rating of a holdout pistol.


-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist

[RHat]

I don't think what I was looking for is unbalanced at all.
High Powered Rounds have a +2 DV and a -1 Ap, which is pretty big, though they are highly illegal-20F availability. Re-chambering relatively accepted with an availability of 8R. I was looking for something more along the lines of +1DV with a more acceptable attainability, something you could carry around with you on the streets.
Look at the Taurus Multi-6 in Arsenal, it's a Light Pistol that can take either Light Pistol rounds OR Heavy Pistol rounds, for either a 4p or 5p DV. So why can't you re-chamber a Heavy Pistol to take 6p rounds instead of 5p? The Ruger already does 6p, so there is precedence for 6p pistols. How is that possible unbalanced? My suggestion is a lot more reasonable than forcing High Powered Rounds. Yes, yes, I know, I could just use explosive rounds. That's not the point.
What you all are suggesting is that if one of your players came to you with this suggestion, that you would turn it down and insist they modify their Ruger Superwarhawk to take High Powered Rounds instead? DV 8 with -3AP? And you call THAT balanced?
As a player, I enjoy having something small like that unique to my character, like a signature gun. As a GM, if it makes my player happy and will not unbalance the game, I would allow it. If he wanted the High Powered Rounds, he would have to deal with having Forbidden/illegal rounds; and if he wanted just a higher caliber, he would have to deal with a Restricted mod, and had better have a fake permit.
Another thing I do as a GM, is if my players use tech like High Powered Rounds or Combat Rifles, I let my NPCs use them too. If my players never bother with such things, I don't either. Keeps the game balanced. But if they want a small advantage like I am suggesting, yeah, I'll allow it., and while I won't have Loan Star start modding their weapons the same way, you can bet your tusks I'll have them notice that BFG you're packing.

The balancing element is the drawback of it - the fact that you can't just carry it around and that you're screwed if you should get caught with it.  Same reason explosive rounds, which offer the exact boost you seek, have a similar drawback.  Getting the damage boost without the drawbacks is a serious balance issue, full stop.

[All4BigGuns]

I don't think what I was looking for is unbalanced at all.
High Powered Rounds have a +2 DV and a -1 Ap, which is pretty big, though they are highly illegal-20F availability. Re-chambering relatively accepted with an availability of 8R. I was looking for something more along the lines of +1DV with a more acceptable attainability, something you could carry around with you on the streets.
Look at the Taurus Multi-6 in Arsenal, it's a Light Pistol that can take either Light Pistol rounds OR Heavy Pistol rounds, for either a 4p or 5p DV. So why can't you re-chamber a Heavy Pistol to take 6p rounds instead of 5p? The Ruger already does 6p, so there is precedence for 6p pistols. How is that possible unbalanced? My suggestion is a lot more reasonable than forcing High Powered Rounds. Yes, yes, I know, I could just use explosive rounds. That's not the point.
What you all are suggesting is that if one of your players came to you with this suggestion, that you would turn it down and insist they modify their Ruger Superwarhawk to take High Powered Rounds instead? DV 8 with -3AP? And you call THAT balanced?
As a player, I enjoy having something small like that unique to my character, like a signature gun. As a GM, if it makes my player happy and will not unbalance the game, I would allow it. If he wanted the High Powered Rounds, he would have to deal with having Forbidden/illegal rounds; and if he wanted just a higher caliber, he would have to deal with a Restricted mod, and had better have a fake permit.
Another thing I do as a GM, is if my players use tech like High Powered Rounds or Combat Rifles, I let my NPCs use them too. If my players never bother with such things, I don't either. Keeps the game balanced. But if they want a small advantage like I am suggesting, yeah, I'll allow it., and while I won't have Loan Star start modding their weapons the same way, you can bet your tusks I'll have them notice that BFG you're packing.

The balancing element is the drawback of it - the fact that you can't just carry it around and that you're screwed if you should get caught with it.  Same reason explosive rounds, which offer the exact boost you seek, have a similar drawback.  Getting the damage boost without the drawbacks is a serious balance issue, full stop.

Considering that in character generation it requires one of the possible three uses of Restricted Gear to get the ammo, it probably wouldn't hurt matters that much for the "F" to be dropped or changed to "R". And after creation, if you don't have a Face that is close to that "Pornomancer" crap, it won't be that easy to find the ammo then.

[RHat]

I don't think what I was looking for is unbalanced at all.
High Powered Rounds have a +2 DV and a -1 Ap, which is pretty big, though they are highly illegal-20F availability. Re-chambering relatively accepted with an availability of 8R. I was looking for something more along the lines of +1DV with a more acceptable attainability, something you could carry around with you on the streets.
Look at the Taurus Multi-6 in Arsenal, it's a Light Pistol that can take either Light Pistol rounds OR Heavy Pistol rounds, for either a 4p or 5p DV. So why can't you re-chamber a Heavy Pistol to take 6p rounds instead of 5p? The Ruger already does 6p, so there is precedence for 6p pistols. How is that possible unbalanced? My suggestion is a lot more reasonable than forcing High Powered Rounds. Yes, yes, I know, I could just use explosive rounds. That's not the point.
What you all are suggesting is that if one of your players came to you with this suggestion, that you would turn it down and insist they modify their Ruger Superwarhawk to take High Powered Rounds instead? DV 8 with -3AP? And you call THAT balanced?
As a player, I enjoy having something small like that unique to my character, like a signature gun. As a GM, if it makes my player happy and will not unbalance the game, I would allow it. If he wanted the High Powered Rounds, he would have to deal with having Forbidden/illegal rounds; and if he wanted just a higher caliber, he would have to deal with a Restricted mod, and had better have a fake permit.
Another thing I do as a GM, is if my players use tech like High Powered Rounds or Combat Rifles, I let my NPCs use them too. If my players never bother with such things, I don't either. Keeps the game balanced. But if they want a small advantage like I am suggesting, yeah, I'll allow it., and while I won't have Loan Star start modding their weapons the same way, you can bet your tusks I'll have them notice that BFG you're packing.

The balancing element is the drawback of it - the fact that you can't just carry it around and that you're screwed if you should get caught with it.  Same reason explosive rounds, which offer the exact boost you seek, have a similar drawback.  Getting the damage boost without the drawbacks is a serious balance issue, full stop.

Considering that in character generation it requires one of the possible three uses of Restricted Gear to get the ammo, it probably wouldn't hurt matters that much for the "F" to be dropped or changed to "R". And after creation, if you don't have a Face that is close to that "Pornomancer" crap, it won't be that easy to find the ammo then.

Which should probably be taken as an indicator that you should be considering High Powered Chambering as something to get later on, rather than a chargen thing.

[All4BigGuns]

I don't think what I was looking for is unbalanced at all.
High Powered Rounds have a +2 DV and a -1 Ap, which is pretty big, though they are highly illegal-20F availability. Re-chambering relatively accepted with an availability of 8R. I was looking for something more along the lines of +1DV with a more acceptable attainability, something you could carry around with you on the streets.
Look at the Taurus Multi-6 in Arsenal, it's a Light Pistol that can take either Light Pistol rounds OR Heavy Pistol rounds, for either a 4p or 5p DV. So why can't you re-chamber a Heavy Pistol to take 6p rounds instead of 5p? The Ruger already does 6p, so there is precedence for 6p pistols. How is that possible unbalanced? My suggestion is a lot more reasonable than forcing High Powered Rounds. Yes, yes, I know, I could just use explosive rounds. That's not the point.
What you all are suggesting is that if one of your players came to you with this suggestion, that you would turn it down and insist they modify their Ruger Superwarhawk to take High Powered Rounds instead? DV 8 with -3AP? And you call THAT balanced?
As a player, I enjoy having something small like that unique to my character, like a signature gun. As a GM, if it makes my player happy and will not unbalance the game, I would allow it. If he wanted the High Powered Rounds, he would have to deal with having Forbidden/illegal rounds; and if he wanted just a higher caliber, he would have to deal with a Restricted mod, and had better have a fake permit.
Another thing I do as a GM, is if my players use tech like High Powered Rounds or Combat Rifles, I let my NPCs use them too. If my players never bother with such things, I don't either. Keeps the game balanced. But if they want a small advantage like I am suggesting, yeah, I'll allow it., and while I won't have Loan Star start modding their weapons the same way, you can bet your tusks I'll have them notice that BFG you're packing.

The balancing element is the drawback of it - the fact that you can't just carry it around and that you're screwed if you should get caught with it.  Same reason explosive rounds, which offer the exact boost you seek, have a similar drawback.  Getting the damage boost without the drawbacks is a serious balance issue, full stop.

Considering that in character generation it requires one of the possible three uses of Restricted Gear to get the ammo, it probably wouldn't hurt matters that much for the "F" to be dropped or changed to "R". And after creation, if you don't have a Face that is close to that "Pornomancer" crap, it won't be that easy to find the ammo then.

Which should probably be taken as an indicator that you should be considering High Powered Chambering as something to get later on, rather than a chargen thing.

True, and some (I dare think many) do, but some times having it from creation isn't a bad thing (representing being able to get it with the quality). I don't mind any of the rest of the stuff on the mod or the ammo, I just don't think "F" is quite appropriate and think "R" is more so.

Now with the availability on the Suprathyroid Gland...oi...I just think 20F is ridiculous. 10R or 12R would be better, IMO.

[RHat]

I don't think what I was looking for is unbalanced at all.
High Powered Rounds have a +2 DV and a -1 Ap, which is pretty big, though they are highly illegal-20F availability. Re-chambering relatively accepted with an availability of 8R. I was looking for something more along the lines of +1DV with a more acceptable attainability, something you could carry around with you on the streets.
Look at the Taurus Multi-6 in Arsenal, it's a Light Pistol that can take either Light Pistol rounds OR Heavy Pistol rounds, for either a 4p or 5p DV. So why can't you re-chamber a Heavy Pistol to take 6p rounds instead of 5p? The Ruger already does 6p, so there is precedence for 6p pistols. How is that possible unbalanced? My suggestion is a lot more reasonable than forcing High Powered Rounds. Yes, yes, I know, I could just use explosive rounds. That's not the point.
What you all are suggesting is that if one of your players came to you with this suggestion, that you would turn it down and insist they modify their Ruger Superwarhawk to take High Powered Rounds instead? DV 8 with -3AP? And you call THAT balanced?
As a player, I enjoy having something small like that unique to my character, like a signature gun. As a GM, if it makes my player happy and will not unbalance the game, I would allow it. If he wanted the High Powered Rounds, he would have to deal with having Forbidden/illegal rounds; and if he wanted just a higher caliber, he would have to deal with a Restricted mod, and had better have a fake permit.
Another thing I do as a GM, is if my players use tech like High Powered Rounds or Combat Rifles, I let my NPCs use them too. If my players never bother with such things, I don't either. Keeps the game balanced. But if they want a small advantage like I am suggesting, yeah, I'll allow it., and while I won't have Loan Star start modding their weapons the same way, you can bet your tusks I'll have them notice that BFG you're packing.

The balancing element is the drawback of it - the fact that you can't just carry it around and that you're screwed if you should get caught with it.  Same reason explosive rounds, which offer the exact boost you seek, have a similar drawback.  Getting the damage boost without the drawbacks is a serious balance issue, full stop.

Considering that in character generation it requires one of the possible three uses of Restricted Gear to get the ammo, it probably wouldn't hurt matters that much for the "F" to be dropped or changed to "R". And after creation, if you don't have a Face that is close to that "Pornomancer" crap, it won't be that easy to find the ammo then.

Which should probably be taken as an indicator that you should be considering High Powered Chambering as something to get later on, rather than a chargen thing.

True, and some (I dare think many) do, but some times having it from creation isn't a bad thing (representing being able to get it with the quality). I don't mind any of the rest of the stuff on the mod or the ammo, I just don't think "F" is quite appropriate and think "R" is more so.

Depending on character background, I could see having some for a sniper rifle, though the character would be treating them as a pretty precious resource.

[Anarkitty]

Spare Clips: Extra ammunition clips come unloaded; they can hold the maximum rounds for the weapon and are not interchangeable from weapon to weapon even within the same class.

Ever find it weird that ammunition is standardised, but spare clips aren't?

Not really.  I think of the "clip" as being part of the gun, even if you have spares.  It has to fit smoothly into a gun that might be a wildly different size and shape from another of the same class.  I would be willing to house-rule compatibility between certain weapons from the same manufacturer on a case-by-case basis, but otherwise I think it makes sense.

Ammo on the other hand is not typically designed specifically along side the gun that will be firing it (except in the case of rare prototypes or hand-made art/weapon pieces).  A gun (and its "clip") are almost always designed around an existing caliber of ammunition, to fire bullets made by a wide range of different manufacturers according to a industry standards.


It is weird that the AK-97 Carbine and the AK-97 apparently fire very different ammo and have different sized "clips" that are not compatible.

[Aryeonos]

that's where GM fiat comes into play. Either that or there are intermediate carbine rounds made for SMG and carbine type weapons that are comparable in length to assault rifle rounds but still of different case diameters. After all the first sub machine guns were called Machine Carbines, if I remember right.

[Shaidar]

As a former military weapon smith I can tell you that re-chambering a weapon is a real PITA.

Now, there are kits available IRL to reduce the caliber of a weapon, mostly these include a new magazine, barrel and some other parts along with instructions.  They take a few hours to install and don't much make for a better weapon.  The U.S. Navy used M1911s re-chambered from .45ACP to .22 to give new recruits a general feel for firearms.

However, increasing the caliber is more problematic than buying a new firearm that already uses the desired caliber.  I personally wouldn't trust a shadowsmith to handle the engineering necessary to handle the stresses involved with a larger round.

And IIRC, the Light pistol which can fire a Heavy pistol round is a revolver that can hold either a single Heavy Pistol round OR its capacity in Light Pistol ammunition.  So using it as an example to allow re-chambering to increase the damage of any weapon is ludicrous in the least.