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Agent Cluster - would that really work?

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Jack_Spade

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« Reply #15 on: <12-28-14/1654:18> »
Well, the system, if not entirely as reliable as a more expensive machine with a real decker, is actually quite cheap:

You need:
4x Agent 3 (12000¥)
1x Agent 6 (12000¥)
2x Erica MCD-1 (99000¥)
1x Novatech Navigator (205,750¥)

3x Virtual Machine (240¥)
The 6 other Common Programs (420¥)
Baby Monitor (250¥)
Decryption (250¥)
Exploit (250¥)
Fork (250¥)
Stealth (250¥)
Wrapper (250¥)

Optional:
Area Jammer 4 (800¥)
Data Tap: (300¥)

Total: 332 010¥

Compared to a Sony CIY-720 (345 000¥) without frills you save 12 990¥
You miss out on one additional program slot and three additional slave slots

The four Agents have 6 dice each for their teamwork checks. On average, they provide each  2 successes up to a total of max. 6 bonus dice and +6 to the limit. If you run silent expect only +4

A standard loadout would be:
Erica 1 & 2: Agent 3^Virtual Machine^Agent 3
Novatech: Agent 6, Baby Monitor, Sneak^Virtual Machine^Stealth
Your Sleaze actions should on average be made with 14 dice (16-2 for running silent) against a limit of 11
Without a good Matrix perception check an attacker has only a 20% chance of actually attacking your good main deck from the 5 active personas (and he will probably notice one of the Agent 3 programs before the Agent 6)

On the downside: You'll probably have to repair quite regularly a lot of Matrix damage on your Erica decks, since they are relatively vulnerable through Virtual Machine and two Agents that can be targeted simultaneously.
The setup could be supplemented with an additional helper deck to provide more redundancy and another decoy.
The setup is also particularly vulnerable to high noise ratings. Everything above 2 will bring the system to it's knees (a bag with fresnel fabric could help, as well as direct connections, of course)
talk think matrix

To strive, to seek, to find and not to yield
Revenant Kynos Isaint Rex

adzling

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« Reply #16 on: <12-29-14/0348:00> »
nice work!

Lucean

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« Reply #17 on: <12-29-14/0512:50> »
I'm pretty sure you can only run one agent on a deck, not sure why you couldn't run multiple agents each on their own deck.

I just am curious where this notion of "only one per deck" being a thing comes from.

There is nothing saying there is a limit; you can have 1 Agent per Program Slot you have. And that is dangerous, especially with lower rating Agents.
Except, there is: p. 246 CRB
Agents are autonomous programs that are rated from 1 to 6.
+
An agent runs as a program and can use programs running on the same device as them.
+
Any attack on an agent damages the device on which it is running, rather than the agent itself (which is, after all, merely a program).


combined with p. 243
You can’t run more than one program of the same type on your deck at once (and no, changing the name of one copy of a program to run two copies doesn’t work, chummer).

So you'd need one deck per agent, which gets really expensive.

Jack_Spade

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« Reply #18 on: <12-29-14/0717:20> »
Good catch. That does indeed impact the system. Although one could argue that an Agent 3 is different from an Agent 4 or 2.

But at least it's something you can do with all those crap decks that you tend to find on enemy deckers.
talk think matrix

To strive, to seek, to find and not to yield
Revenant Kynos Isaint Rex

grid_tapper

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« Reply #19 on: <12-29-14/0752:48> »
Here is one of the rule wordings that ill point out.

'Agents run as a programs' as the later post points out. They have no written way to automatically run in any situation. They must given a command to run each and every time you need them.
 I believe running a program is a simple action? So activating two for example agents will drastically limit any other desired actions a character would want to take.....




Shaidar

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« Reply #20 on: <12-29-14/0803:08> »
Can't agents be script commanded like Drone Pilot programs can?  Ala, Attack Pattern Alpha costing only 1 Simple Action and all of the Agents respond in a set but varying manner based on the coding of the command script.

grid_tapper

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« Reply #21 on: <12-29-14/0846:55> »
Scripts were in 4th edition.... :(

Automated responses are for IC's only it seems.....
Hey! An agent acting as limited IC for a Deck is a good place to start a custom programming skill rule!
deckers are still hackers, No?

Herr Brackhaus

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« Reply #22 on: <12-29-14/0847:47> »
Shaidar
They certainly could in SR4A; Unwired introduced scripting. Page 100:
"Like IC, agents—including mooks, bots, and drone pilots— can have scripts (see Scripting, p. 69), a list of actions that they take when certain conditions apply. Scripts can make a hacker’s (and a gamemaster’s) life much easier, as hackers can spend less time micromanaging their agents or bots."

I see no reason why this couldn't be allowed in SR5 as well; in essence, this is similar to ordering drone pilots, spirits, and sprites to perform a task.

As for running multiple agents, I'm not sure I agree with using the programs rule of only one copy of a program. If you want to get really pedantic about it, I'd say that rule exists so that you can't run four copies of the same Encryption program for example to gain the benefit four times. Buying four rating 4 agent programs however to my mind is not the same, and since each agent program is an autonomous program that exposes your deck to risk I would certainly allow it.

As for low defenses; slaving the support decks to the master would give them slightly better defense attributes, if nothing else.

grid_tapper

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« Reply #23 on: <12-29-14/1419:35> »
The lack of scripts and daisy chaining does eliminate the the character run bot network zombies from 4th edition. A real abuseable situation *LOL*


8-bit

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« Reply #24 on: <12-29-14/1627:37> »
Here is one of the rule wordings that ill point out.

'Agents run as a programs' as the later post points out. They have no written way to automatically run in any situation. They must given a command to run each and every time you need them.
 I believe running a program is a simple action? So activating two for example agents will drastically limit any other desired actions a character would want to take.....

Just because it requires extra actions does not mean it isn't doable.

I'm pretty sure you can only run one agent on a deck, not sure why you couldn't run multiple agents each on their own deck.

I just am curious where this notion of "only one per deck" being a thing comes from.

There is nothing saying there is a limit; you can have 1 Agent per Program Slot you have. And that is dangerous, especially with lower rating Agents.
Except, there is: p. 246 CRB
Agents are autonomous programs that are rated from 1 to 6.
+
An agent runs as a program and can use programs running on the same device as them.
+
Any attack on an agent damages the device on which it is running, rather than the agent itself (which is, after all, merely a program).


combined with p. 243
You can’t run more than one program of the same type on your deck at once (and no, changing the name of one copy of a program to run two copies doesn’t work, chummer).

So you'd need one deck per agent, which gets really expensive.

Hmm, good catch. Although, as Jack_Spade said, it becomes debatable whether a rating 1 Agent counts as the "same" or a "copy" of a rating 6 Agent.

grid_tapper

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« Reply #25 on: <12-30-14/0937:34> »
And think of this.......
It would take about 2 initiative passes to activate 3 agents and take no other actions. And all of the requested actions would be complety out of sink.....

Jack_Spade

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« Reply #26 on: <12-30-14/1035:10> »
That's actually quite easy to do:
Simple Action: Tell Agent 6 to ask Agent 3(1),(2),(3) and (4) to start teamworking
Simple Action: Tell Agent 6 to start hacking as soon as Teamwork actions are completed

Don't forget, that every Agent has two simple actions, so they can act and direct others within one phase
talk think matrix

To strive, to seek, to find and not to yield
Revenant Kynos Isaint Rex

Herr Brackhaus

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« Reply #27 on: <12-30-14/1035:52> »
And think of this.......
It would take about 2 initiative passes to activate 3 agents and take no other actions. And all of the requested actions would be complety out of sink.....
Firstly, your comment on running a program is only applicable when a deck is booted or a program needs to change (say, when swapping Baby Monitor for Encryption, or loading an Agent into an empty program slot).

Secondly, if the Control Device action (p238) can be used to control multiple devices as long as the command is the same to all devices, surely Send Message can perform the same function.

Example:
Decker X (single Action Phase):
Simple Action: Send Message "Agent 6, sleaze a MARK on the owner of [AR marked maglock] and then spoof a command to unlock it"
Simple Action: Send Message "Agents 1 through 4, assist Agent 6 in it's task."

Since an agent has both the Hacking and Computer skills, the Matrix Perception, Hack on the Fly, and Spoof Command actions would be intuitive to it, and in my opinion would not require a Pilot/Agent test to see if it understood the order (p269). The Agents would proceed somewhat as follows, assuming average initiative rolls (12+14 for the Rating 6 agent, 6+14 for the Rating 3 Agents):

Initiative Pass 1: Complex Action - Matrix Perception (Who is the registered owner of maglock Icon?")
Initiative Pass 2: Complex Action - Hack on the Fly (Owner of maglock Icon)
Initiative Pass 3: Complex Action - Spoof Command (Unlock maglock)

Thirdly, to my mind there are ways of making the kind of of thing the OP has suggested work in the current SR5 ruleset. Just because those ways are aren't necessarily explicitly spelled out I see no reason to restrict a player from coming up with a great idea and using it in an interesting fashion, any more than I see a reason to restrict a street samurai or magician who thinks of using his or her environment to their advantage during a combat scene. Is it rules as written? No. But the rules as written contain these very important sections on page 44:
"The rules are here to help you move the story forward, to give you outcomes for the decisions you’re making. They are not a perfect mirror of reality—at times, the rules provide abstract ways to determine the results of concrete actions, because it speeds up the game and prevents players from having to roll dice over and over again to complete certain tasks."

"Role-playing is a cooperative endeavor, and every member of the gaming group should be working together to help each member of the group have fun (even the gamemasters, since they should occasionally be allowed some enjoyment). Players should feel like their characters can play an important role in shaping and advancing the story, and the gamemaster should feel that they can keep the story moving ahead without having to engage in prolonged and distracting discussions about the rules."


To summarize; to me the game is about having fun, and if the rules don't contain the necessary provisions to make something I want to happen, well, happen, then I either handwave it or come up with some rules on my own. Rules for scripting and mooks may not exist in 5th (yet), but there's plenty of rules in 4th to base a new framework on, and even without that it's simple enough to implement with very little deviation from the core SR5 rules.

In this case, the OP has come up with a unique way of creating a pocket hacker that has significant drawbacks, costs a decent chunk of money, but that gives a team with no dedicated decker matrix support of a kind. I think that should be rewarded.

Namikaze

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« Reply #28 on: <12-30-14/1202:58> »
All of the information in this thread, both rules-legal and -questionable, makes me want Data Trails to come out so badly.  I like the direction the OP is going with this, I don't see it for every team (or even most teams) but there is enough grey area to make it worth at least testing.  If it doesn't unbalance things (I doubt it will), and if it doesn't bog things down too much (I'm worried that this will happen) then I could definitely see it being adopted more readily by teams that need a hacker but don't want to risk hiring some unknown off the street.
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grid_tapper

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« Reply #29 on: <12-30-14/1419:27> »
And imagine when people start posting some comprehensive rules of their own that will inspire others to do the same!