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SR5: clarification on Drones and Sensors

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Insaniac99

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« on: <10-15-13/0202:15> »
The rules for rigger seem to be al over the place and I would like some clarification

  • Do drones get free sensors?  I have seen this go both ways on here
  • How many sensors max can a drone fit? (is it based on class or sensor rating or unlimited if you have enough money?)
  • I am guessing you buy the housing and then the sensor you want in the housing? or is it all one cost?
  • what about things like the camera that can accept modifications?
  • The drone always rolls Pilot + Clearsight except when being remote-controlled via a rigger, correct?
  • The Rigger rolls Perception + intuition when it is a sensor that replicates a normal sense (hearing, sight, smell and Electronic Warfare + intuition if it doesn't replicate a sense

Are there any compiled play examples for the rigger on the forums like there is the hacking the library?
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martinchaen

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« Reply #1 on: <10-15-13/0843:01> »
1. Yes.
Page 199; "Sensor is a rating representing the suite of information-gathering or detection devices that are built into every vehicle in the Sixth World."
Page 445; "Most vehicles and drones come factory-equipped with a sensor array (at a rating listed with their stats)."

That's pretty clear to me. Just because the first paragraph doesn't specifically mention drones do not mean they are excluded from that rule; drones are still vehicles, and they still have a Sensor rating.

2. See above reference to page 445. A sensor array always has capacity 6.

3. The housing is the drone itself, see 2. The problem is that these rules contradict themselves; the phrase on page 445 specifically states that a sensor array "at a rating listed with [the drone's] stats" comes factory equipped, meaning all drones come with a rating 3 sensor array (all drones in the SR5 core book have Sensor 3). The table for Sensor Housings on the other hand has Large Drones listed as Max Sensor rating 5.

In my opinion, then, drones come with up to 6 free functions from the factory limited to rating 3 sensors; for a fluff justification of this, think mass production costs vs individual costs.

So, if you wish to upgrade the sensors on a Large Drone to Rating 5, for example, you would then have to pay Rating 5 x 1000 for the array (page 446) and then you'd get to pick 6 functions for the array at Rating 5.

4. Page 446; "If a function has the same name as an imaging or audio device, itís the same as its description in those sections, with a Capacity equal to its Rating, and thus is not described here."

Meaning, yes, you can put a camera in a sensor array and then upgrade the camera with vision enhancements. Keep in mind that a micro-sized camera only has capacity 1.

5. Incorrect; there are four ways to control a vehicle, three of which applies to drones (see page 265)
1. Manual Control (does not apply to Drones as far as I'm aware)
2.. Remote control (can be done even with a commlink, so a street sam can have an eye-in-the-sky for example)
3. Autopilot (using the drone's Pilot rating)
4. Jumped In

By the RAW as per page 270, the drone would use it's Pilot + Clearsight [Sensor] to observe it's surroundings in the case of 2 and 3, while you would use your own Perception + Intuition [Sensor] if you're Jumped In. And this is why it's a good idea to upgrade a drone's sensor array if your drone is medium sized or larger ;)

6. I'm not sure where you're getting this from. Page 270 as per the above states that "Either way, you get to use the drone's entire sensor suite, if it has one". Using Electronic Warfare is an option that you can always use when making a Perception Test with Sensors, as per page 445; "When you use the sensor array for Perception Tests, you may use your electronic Warfare skill in place of your Perception skill, and you may use the sensor's rating as your limit".

I'm not sure about compiled play examples.

Lobo

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« Reply #2 on: <10-15-13/0937:52> »
@martin,

A sensor array doesn't have a capacity of 6, it takes up a capacity of 6.

It allows you to have 8 functions - page 445:

Sensor array: This sensor package includes up to
eight functions listed under Sensor Functions.

So a drone from the factory has a rating 3 sensor array that includes 8 of the functions on the sensor array table (at the player's choice).

Kincaid

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« Reply #3 on: <10-15-13/0952:36> »
By the RAW as per page 270, the drone would use it's Pilot + Clearsight [Sensor] to observe it's surroundings in the case of 2 and 3, while you would use your own Perception + Intuition [Sensor] if you're Jumped In. And this is why it's a good idea to upgrade a drone's sensor array if your drone is medium sized or larger ;)

Don't forget you add you control rig rating to your limit when you're jacked in (so you're probably look at a Electronic Warfare + Intuition [5] test), so you can put off some of those upgrades until your dice pool gets really big.
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martinchaen

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« Reply #4 on: <10-15-13/1111:05> »
Lobo Good catch.

Kincaid Also a great point.

OP; I don't play a rigger character either, simply because I think the rules are so freakin' infurating to figure out. As you can see, I missed some stuff too ;)

Kincaid

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« Reply #5 on: <10-15-13/1352:15> »
Riggers can be very good at doing things--I'm holding off on building one for SRM until the Rigger Black Book 5.0 comes out, but we'll see if I can wait that long or not. 

Keep in mind that all vehicle actions count as Matrix actions for jacked in riggers (and get +2 dice as a result) and that stacks with the +1 die bonus from page 266.  This includes Gunnery and Sensor tests.  Finding things and killing them shouldn't be a problem for a rigger.

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Insaniac99

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« Reply #6 on: <10-15-13/1408:12> »
thanks for the clarifications.  as far as using electronic warfare, Aaron replied to a post


Lots of rigger-related questions.

1. Page 264 mentions "other devices" as things that can be rigged and the security spider is reminiscent of the old CCSS rigger.  Is there a way for a rigger to get marks on a device so s/he can use the Control Device matrix action?

2. What does a rigger roll to drive a vehicle while using cold- and/or hot-sim?  Presumably not Reaction since the rigger is a rag doll.

3. Similarly, what does a rigger use for initiative while using cold/hot sim?  I'm assuming it's also Data Processing + Intuition (+dice as appropriate).

4. Can you give an example of a Matrix action that would share a bonus with a Vehicle action (p. 266, under "VR and Rigging")?  For example, does the +1 die to Vehicle and Matrix tests while using hot sim (p. 266) stack with the +2 dice to Matrix tests (p. 231) since "any bonus you get to Matrix actions also applies to Vehicle actions."

5. A rigger is running hot sim on his Optix-X2 scouting an area for potential threats.  Does he get to pick between Perception + Intuition [Sensor] (p. 270) and Electronic Warfare + Intuition [Sensor] (p. 445) for the roll assuming he's using his sensor array.  Is there any reason not to use his sensor array?

6. How are sensor arrays priced?  Are any eight functions from the table on p. 446 essentially free, but after-market modifications (a thermographic modification for your free camera (3), for example) out of pocket?  If the functions aren't free, where are the prices?

7. Going back to the interchangeability of Perception and Electronic Warfare in question 5, can a rigger use Electronic Warfare for a sensor test (p. 184)?

Non-rigger related question:

8. How does a dart of narcojet interact with armor?  Without a power or AP rating for the dart pistol/rifle, it's hard to know how to determine if the dart can deliver its payload.  A guy in full armor is going to be tougher to take down than a pedestrian.

1. Yes, the same way that hackers do it. They can't jump into a device that doesn't have a rigger interface, though.

2. Reaction. It's the same medulla oblongata and motor cortex, it's just the signals go to different places than Mother Nature intended.

3. Data Processing + Intuition.

4. Yep, your example is correct. Rigging is awesome (until you get hacked or totaled).

5. Yep. Possibly, depending on the situation.

6. Single sensor functions cost Rating x 100•, arrays of eight cost Rating x 1,000•. Since your vehicle is big enough to not have to worry about sensor capacity, I suggest you buy them individually at your vehicle's Sensor rating.

7. I think this was already answered in 5.

8. Injection darts, p. 434, SR5.


Q: What is allowed to be added to a helmet (i.e. using capacity)?
Trode nets and vision enhancements are listed specifically, and both have known capacity ratings, but what about other equipment like communications gear (jammer/headjammer, white noise generator, etc) audio enhancements, survival gear (respirator/gasmask, flashlight ala Aliens Marines), sensors, etc.

Sounds good to me. Check with your GM to be sure.


Thanks for the reply--a quick follow-up/clarification regarding sensor cost.  Page 445 states, "most vehicles and drones come factory-equipped with a sensor array (at a rating listed with their stats)."  I took this to mean that all drones have a sensor array (3) as part of their off-the-shelf cost.  Since an array "includes up to eight functions listed on the Sensor Table," I read this as meaning that all drones have up to 8 things from the table at rating 3 for free, even though it's a little strange to have a 3,000 nuyen array in a 1,000 nuyen drone.  Drones have arrays, arrays are specific things, ergo drones have those specific things.

The manufacturer gets a bulk discount on most drone parts. If you're willing to buy sensor arrays in 50,000 count lots, you could probably get that kind of a discount, too. =i)

Some of those answers don't mesh 100% with the book (you can buy individual sensors for the drones, rather than the array, but what's the limit on ammount?
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Kincaid

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« Reply #7 on: <10-15-13/1425:14> »
I suppose you could, but since you get 8 sensors for free, I'm not sure how often someone would really want to get a 9th.  I'd probably just say something like +1 sensor/size category or something easy to remember like that.
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martinchaen

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« Reply #8 on: <10-15-13/1430:35> »
Or +1 sensor per body, perhaps? I mean, a microsensor can quite literally be microscopic, or the size of a price tag. A rating 2 sensor is not necessarily going to be very big...

Kincaid

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« Reply #9 on: <10-15-13/1525:48> »
Or +1 sensor per body, perhaps? I mean, a microsensor can quite literally be microscopic, or the size of a price tag. A rating 2 sensor is not necessarily going to be very big...

Yeah, that's probably more reasonable.  I honestly would be shocked if this ever came up, but it's good to have on hand.  (Rule 1A of rigging: Don't over-invest in a single drone.  25 nuyen of Stick-n-Shock ammo can cost you 25 grand).
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martinchaen

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« Reply #10 on: <10-15-13/1540:07> »
Speaking of Stick-n-Shock; when is the secondary effect (dealing Matrix damage equal to half modified DV) ever going to be useful against things like drones and vehicles? There's no "wound penalties" for Matrix damage, so you're likely to destroy the drone before causing enough Matrix damage to brick it, unless I've grossly misread those rules.

I completely agree on the general "don't over-invest" rule of thumb, by the way. That can apply to pretty much anything...

Kincaid

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« Reply #11 on: <10-15-13/1552:08> »
Speaking of Stick-n-Shock; when is the secondary effect (dealing Matrix damage equal to half modified DV) ever going to be useful against things like drones and vehicles? There's no "wound penalties" for Matrix damage, so you're likely to destroy the drone before causing enough Matrix damage to brick it, unless I've grossly misread those rules.

I completely agree on the general "don't over-invest" rule of thumb, by the way. That can apply to pretty much anything...

The Matrix damage carries over to your persona device (p. 266), which means your drone is trashed and your RCC has a repair bill.  Or is simply offline for the rest of the run, which sucks in its own way.
« Last Edit: <10-15-13/1554:05> by Kincaid »
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martinchaen

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« Reply #12 on: <10-15-13/1553:17> »
Kincaid Ooooh... that's some serious potential fun right there. Thanks!

Kincaid

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« Reply #13 on: <10-15-13/1601:00> »
Kincaid Ooooh... that's some serious potential fun right there. Thanks!

Not to give too much away for the Dragonsong CMP, but there are lots of drones.  My guy used his sniper rifle, silencer, and Stick-n-Shock to great effect.

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