Shadowrun

Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: The Bald Man on <02-25-17/1911:49>

Title: Is Quickening Metamagic a trap?
Post by: The Bald Man on <02-25-17/1911:49>
Given the difficulty of getting around mana barriers is Quickening Metamagic a trap for the black trenchcoat types? 
Title: Re: Is Quickening Metamagic a trap?
Post by: firebug on <02-25-17/1954:23>
If you get the Flux metamagic, you can use it to bypass wards (however, during this time your quickened spells won't affect you as they are temporarily scrambled).  Otherwise the only other way to do so is to manually deactivate all sustained spells and active foci so the ward can't detect you at all.

While it is an extra costs, Flux would be useful in a black trenchcoat type game anyways, and it's worth it to be able to use the immensely powerful Quickening metamagic.
Title: Re: Is Quickening Metamagic a trap?
Post by: Slipperychicken on <02-26-17/0723:17>
It seems pretty reasonable to me. When you press through a mana barrier, just get one net hit for every quickened spell, and you're golden. Just be sure to be a charisma mage.

If you only have one quickened spell on you, then you can guarantee it will stay up because you need one net hit to press through anyway.
Title: Re: Is Quickening Metamagic a trap?
Post by: The Bald Man on <02-26-17/1120:38>
It seems pretty reasonable to me. When you press through a mana barrier, just get one net hit for every quickened spell, and you're golden. Just be sure to be a charisma mage.

If you only have one quickened spell on you, then you can guarantee it will stay up because you need one net hit to press through anyway.

Pressing through still notifies the owner - just like attacking it does. 

If you get the Flux metamagic, you can use it to bypass wards (however, during this time your quickened spells won't affect you as they are temporarily scrambled).  Otherwise the only other way to do so is to manually deactivate all sustained spells and active foci so the ward can't detect you at all.

While it is an extra costs, Flux would be useful in a black trenchcoat type game anyways, and it's worth it to be able to use the immensely powerful Quickening metamagic.
Flexible Signature -> Flux -> Quicken.  If you go in that order it works.  My GM makes each initiation more difficult than the last (don't just pay karma and go) so 3 initiations is daunting. 

My point is that Quicken causes a whole new set of problems that are very hard to overcome. 
Title: Re: Is Quickening Metamagic a trap?
Post by: Slipperychicken on <02-26-17/1852:39>
It seems pretty reasonable to me. When you press through a mana barrier, just get one net hit for every quickened spell, and you're golden. Just be sure to be a charisma mage.

If you only have one quickened spell on you, then you can guarantee it will stay up because you need one net hit to press through anyway.

Pressing through still notifies the owner - just like attacking it does. 

Do you know where it says that? I'm having some trouble finding it.
Title: Re: Is Quickening Metamagic a trap?
Post by: The Bald Man on <02-26-17/2123:27>
Sidebar in Street Grimior p135 under "fooling wards". 
It is possible to attack a mana barrier or to press through it (p. 315, SR5), but doing so alerts the ward’s creator to the action, which is
something the magician may want to avoid. A magician may use Flux if they have learned it, or become the astral doppelganger of a person
approved to pass through the ward. Crossing the ward using either option requires an Opposed Test of the character’s Intuition + Magic
+ initiate grade vs. Force of the ward x 2. If the individual succeeds in this test, they are able to cross the ward without alerting the ward’s
creator. If they failed, they cannot cross, but they have not yet alerted the ward’s creator
Title: Re: Is Quickening Metamagic a trap?
Post by: Slipperychicken on <02-26-17/2203:33>
Sidebar in Street Grimior p135 under "fooling wards". 
It is possible to attack a mana barrier or to press through it (p. 315, SR5), but doing so alerts the ward’s creator to the action, which is
something the magician may want to avoid. A magician may use Flux if they have learned it, or become the astral doppelganger of a person
approved to pass through the ward. Crossing the ward using either option requires an Opposed Test of the character’s Intuition + Magic
+ initiate grade vs. Force of the ward x 2. If the individual succeeds in this test, they are able to cross the ward without alerting the ward’s
creator. If they failed, they cannot cross, but they have not yet alerted the ward’s creator

There we go. I was stuck looking in the core book which only specifies it for attacking.
Title: Re: Is Quickening Metamagic a trap?
Post by: Tarislar on <02-26-17/2210:40>
Given the difficulty of getting around mana barriers is Quickening Metamagic a trap for the black trenchcoat types? 

That & it turns into a massive Karma sink too since you keep wanting to learn more & more spells to "buff" yourself with.
Title: Re: Is Quickening Metamagic a trap?
Post by: Quatar on <02-27-17/0932:41>
Given the difficulty of getting around mana barriers is Quickening Metamagic a trap for the black trenchcoat types? 

That & it turns into a massive Karma sink too since you keep wanting to learn more & more spells to "buff" yourself with.
Well the minimum amount of Karma you spend per spell is 1. Anything else just gives a bonus to dispelling, which is nice fo course, but maybe not too often relevant.
So for 1 karma you can get the semi-permanent benefit of Wired Reflexes 3, or increase an attribute by 4 etc... That is EXTREMELY cheap.

Even if it only lasts for a while, and you have to recast it every month or so.
Title: Re: Is Quickening Metamagic a trap?
Post by: firebug on <02-27-17/1013:12>
Yeah, it's...  Easily the single most powerful metamagic, as it multiplies the power of sustained spells.  It's absolutely worth getting Flux to be able to sneak through barriers with it; the amount of money and karma you save not needing multiple Sustaining Foci, is a huge deal.  It's a big part of what makes mage the strongest archetype; their buff spells are incredibly flexible (they include the only way to directly augment BOD and CHA, for instance) or just powerful (Increase Reflexes is the best initiative boost in the game).  Quickened Deflection in combination with Increase INT and/or Increase REA isn't visibly noticeable, and makes you significantly harder to hit.
Title: Re: Is Quickening Metamagic a trap?
Post by: Tecumseh on <02-27-17/1244:32>
Whether Quickening is a trap option is entirely dependent on your GM. If you have a lenient GM or are playing in a high-powered game where large dice pools are acceptable, then Quickening is the fastest and easiest way to make the leap to Prime Runner. (A good teammate should be quickening Combat Sense on everyone, not just themselves.)

But if your GM is playing things tightly in terms of wards and background counts and other things that might pop the spells then Quickening can be a rabbit hole. Whether it is worth the multiple initiations becomes a question of opportunity cost and what else you want the character to be good at, which can be just as much of a question about fun as it is about effectiveness.
Title: Re: Is Quickening Metamagic a trap?
Post by: The Bald Man on <02-27-17/1310:10>
you spend 29 for your first 2 initiations for minor yield.  Then you spend 19 karma on quickening and BAM!  you can average 10 hits (post edge and F6 spirit assist) on quickened spells (more if you have a spellcasting/power focus).  10 hits on all your favorite buff spells turns you into an unstoppable beast. 
...while awesome for the mage isn't fun for anyone else at the table.  I need to rethink this. 
Title: Re: Is Quickening Metamagic a trap?
Post by: firebug on <02-27-17/1351:44>
I have some houserules to balance Quickening, which I think you could consider.  They keep it powerful, and useful without it being just the absolute monster and arms race it can be.

1)  When a spell is quickened, its limit becomes the limit of the spell as cast at its force; modifiers like using edge to Push the Limit or reagents disappear, and any hits above the Limit of the spell are lost as normal.

2) You cannot quicken a spell that has been overcast at a Force above your MAG rating; if your Magic attribute drops below the spell's Force at any point, the quickened spell's Force is permanently lowered to your current MAG and cannot be increased.  (You may, however, cancel the spell if you wish and re-quicken it, paying for it with Karma again)

3) The Karma cost to Quicken a spell is (Force) Karma.  This is how it was in the previous edition, by the way.

This makes Quickening still a powerful tool, but the investment per spell is increased, making it harder to quicken a dozen max-Force spells on you.  It also limits the power of the spells, so you can't simply cast a F12 spell with Edge, get 18 hits, and then quicken that.

A reasonable in-game justification is that for 1), those temporary boosts fade as the quickened spell normalizes and forms to your aura.  For 2), your aura cannot properly quicken a spell that your own MAG rating can't normally power; it's just too powerful of a spell for you to sustain this way.  Number 3 isn't something that can be keened in-game, and so doesn't need an explanation beyond "it's for game balance".

Title: Re: Is Quickening Metamagic a trap?
Post by: Tecumseh on <02-27-17/1458:32>
firebug's house rules are all reasonable. If you search the forum, you will find several threads with other suggestions about how to house rule quickening.

One I use is that the caster must buy hits when casting a spell to be quickened. You can use foci and mentor spirit bonuses but not Edge. That usually limits the hits to 3-4, which is enough to give the recipient a nice boost without turning them into an unstoppable juggernaut.
Title: Re: Is Quickening Metamagic a trap?
Post by: firebug on <02-27-17/1510:45>
Buying hits is a good way to balance it, but I shy away from it because it means you can't organically decide to quicken a spell after you've cast it normally.  It's not a common occurrence by any means, but as written you should be able to say...  Cast a Physical Barrier or something, then realize you want/need it to last a loooong time, and then decide to Quicken it even if you weren't originally planning to.
Title: Re: Is Quickening Metamagic a trap?
Post by: Hobbes on <02-27-17/1809:27>
Whether Quickening is a trap option is entirely dependent on your GM. If you have a lenient GM or are playing in a high-powered game where large dice pools are acceptable, then Quickening is the fastest and easiest way to make the leap to Prime Runner. (A good teammate should be quickening Combat Sense on everyone, not just themselves.)

But if your GM is playing things tightly in terms of wards and background counts and other things that might pop the spells then Quickening can be a rabbit hole. Whether it is worth the multiple initiations becomes a question of opportunity cost and what else you want the character to be good at, which can be just as much of a question about fun as it is about effectiveness.

This.  In a game with background count and consistent magical security, Quickening is good, but not broken.  Lots of dice pool buffs, but any kind of Astral observer is likely to see you coming.  Quickening is very Pink Mohawk.  Magical equivalent to walking around in Swat Armor and Riot Shield. 
Title: Re: Is Quickening Metamagic a trap?
Post by: Senko on <02-28-17/0536:37>
Given the difficulty of getting around mana barriers is Quickening Metamagic a trap for the black trenchcoat types? 

That & it turns into a massive Karma sink too since you keep wanting to learn more & more spells to "buff" yourself with.

I admit I can't quite keep real life out of my spell desires like wanting to quicken control temperature 10 degrees on a room after our 45 degree (celsius) days. Sure its not going to help in running but 6 karam (assuming you initiated for other reasons) to have a permanently cool living/bedroom mmmmmm.
Title: Re: Is Quickening Metamagic a trap?
Post by: The Bald Man on <02-28-17/1128:23>
Given the difficulty of getting around mana barriers is Quickening Metamagic a trap for the black trenchcoat types? 

That & it turns into a massive Karma sink too since you keep wanting to learn more & more spells to "buff" yourself with.

I admit I can't quite keep real life out of my spell desires like wanting to quicken control temperature 10 degrees on a room after our 45 degree (celsius) days. Sure its not going to help in running but 6 karam (assuming you initiated for other reasons) to have a permanently cool living/bedroom mmmmmm.

In real life everyoen who could afford one would have a sleep regulator. 
Title: Re: Is Quickening Metamagic a trap?
Post by: Tarislar on <03-04-17/1531:23>
That & it turns into a massive Karma sink too since you keep wanting to learn more & more spells to "buff" yourself with.
Well the minimum amount of Karma you spend per spell is 1. Anything else just gives a bonus to dispelling, which is nice fo course, but maybe not too often relevant.
So for 1 karma you can get the semi-permanent benefit of Wired Reflexes 3, or increase an attribute by 4 etc... That is EXTREMELY cheap.

Even if it only lasts for a while, and you have to recast it every month or so.

I think you completely missed what I said.  Let me emphasize above in bold for you.

Its not 1 Karma.  Its 6 Karma, you learn the spell, then you quicken it.  It adds up fast.
Unless you took nothing but buff spells at chargen which makes little sense since buff spells, while nifty for making you hard to kill, are not a very diverse & useful set up for a mage.

A "typical" buff gives you 4 dice for some test.  Nice, but not the kind of boost that Having or NOT Having Improved Invis, or Levitate, or Fire Ball, or Control Thoughts, or Physical Mask, or Heal, or Detect Enemies XR, or Fashion, or  .......... well you get the picture.

Buffs make you better "defensively", but short of some boosted Drain dice, they do very little to improve a mage "Offensively" the way more diverse spell selection & power foci do.
Title: Re: Is Quickening Metamagic a trap?
Post by: Hobbes on <03-04-17/2316:15>
Improved Invisibility, Levitate, and Detect Enemies XR (especially Detect Enemies XR) are phenomenal spells to Quicken IMO.
Title: Re: Is Quickening Metamagic a trap?
Post by: Tecumseh on <03-05-17/0017:56>
Again, consult with your GM. Some GMs might not allow on/off functionality for quickened spells. Quickening Improved Invisibility might permanently turn you into the invisible man ("Wells, not Ellison," in the most literary joke from the Mission Impossible franchise).

For example, I have Physical Mask quickened on a magician, with the understanding that the spell can be tweaked or "updated" to represent things like growing hair or changing makeup, but not to turn me into the T-1000 swapping identities on the fly.

As a GM, I like it when players communicate their intentions openly so that we can reach an agreement in advance about how something will be treated in-play.
Title: Re: Is Quickening Metamagic a trap?
Post by: Senko on <03-05-17/0332:43>
Given the difficulty of getting around mana barriers is Quickening Metamagic a trap for the black trenchcoat types? 

That & it turns into a massive Karma sink too since you keep wanting to learn more & more spells to "buff" yourself with.

I admit I can't quite keep real life out of my spell desires like wanting to quicken control temperature 10 degrees on a room after our 45 degree (celsius) days. Sure its not going to help in running but 6 karam (assuming you initiated for other reasons) to have a permanently cool living/bedroom mmmmmm.

In real life everyoen who could afford one would have a sleep regulator.

I know I would.

On topic I'm not sure you can really count it as 6 karma unless you ONLY learnt the spell to quicken it and given the costs personally I only tend to learn spells that are character related e.g. purify fire or I'll be using a lot. The metamagic cost could count but that would spread across however many you cast so I agree the minimum cost to quicken a spell is really 1.
Title: Re: Is Quickening Metamagic a trap?
Post by: Hobbes on <03-05-17/0910:55>
Again, consult with your GM. Some GMs might not allow on/off functionality for quickened spells. Quickening Improved Invisibility might permanently turn you into the invisible man ("Wells, not Ellison," in the most literary joke from the Mission Impossible franchise).

For example, I have Physical Mask quickened on a magician, with the understanding that the spell can be tweaked or "updated" to represent things like growing hair or changing makeup, but not to turn me into the T-1000 swapping identities on the fly.

As a GM, I like it when players communicate their intentions openly so that we can reach an agreement in advance about how something will be treated in-play.

Mana Static is your on/off switch.  But yes, Quickened Improved Invisibility turns you invisible all the time.  Quickened Physical Mask makes you look like someone else all the time.

Permanent Invisibility is only a problem if you don't have the right set up.  Trid Phantasm or Mana Static work as an on/off or as a *poof* here I am.  Or use an AR projection.  Lots of ways to cope depending on the expectations of who you're interacting with.
Title: Re: Is Quickening Metamagic a trap?
Post by: Slipperychicken on <03-05-17/1157:23>
In real life everyoen who could afford one would have a sleep regulator.

Sleep regulator seems like something that would have some nasty side-effects down the road. Messing with your mind's ability to refresh itself is serious business.

Obviously the rules for a game about violent criminals (who lets face it are lucky if they last 10 sessions) aren't likely to dive into the long-term cognitive impacts, but a wageslave who plans on living to be 80+ years old might be concerned about those issues.
Title: Re: Is Quickening Metamagic a trap?
Post by: Tarislar on <03-05-17/1409:40>
On topic I'm not sure you can really count it as 6 karma unless you ONLY learnt the spell to quicken it and given the costs personally I only tend to learn spells that are character related e.g. purify fire or I'll be using a lot. The metamagic cost could count but that would spread across however many you cast so I agree the minimum cost to quicken a spell is really 1.
There are very few spells that I quicken & then still cast a lot of the time.
Levitate is a good example of that, but the Attribute Buffs aren't, IMHO.  You basically learn them just to quicken them.
Title: Re: Is Quickening Metamagic a trap?
Post by: Tarislar on <03-05-17/1413:40>
Improved Invisibility, Levitate, and Detect Enemies XR (especially Detect Enemies XR) are phenomenal spells to Quicken IMO.

DEXR is up there as my favorite quickened spell, and the one my GM most hates.
Ruins his fun of ambushing us.

Levitate is a great one since it doesn't have to be "on" all the time, I mean it is, but you don't HAVE to float,  you can set it to ground level.

I can't say as I've ever considered Invis short of blowing the 1 karma for an infiltration, but I doubt I'd leave it on the way your talking about.

Title: Re: Is Quickening Metamagic a trap?
Post by: Hobbes on <03-05-17/2101:07>
Improved Invisibility, Levitate, and Detect Enemies XR (especially Detect Enemies XR) are phenomenal spells to Quicken IMO.

DEXR is up there as my favorite quickened spell, and the one my GM most hates.
Ruins his fun of ambushing us.

Levitate is a great one since it doesn't have to be "on" all the time, I mean it is, but you don't HAVE to float,  you can set it to ground level.

I can't say as I've ever considered Invis short of blowing the 1 karma for an infiltration, but I doubt I'd leave it on the way your talking about.

Improved Invisibility would not be an early choice for quickening for me either.  Detect Enemies, Detect Life, Clairvoyance (specifically lets you move it around), lots of stuff would be first.   
Title: Re: Is Quickening Metamagic a trap?
Post by: Senko on <03-05-17/2202:19>
In real life everyoen who could afford one would have a sleep regulator.

Sleep regulator seems like something that would have some nasty side-effects down the road. Messing with your mind's ability to refresh itself is serious business.

Obviously the rules for a game about violent criminals (who lets face it are lucky if they last 10 sessions) aren't likely to dive into the long-term cognitive impacts, but a wageslave who plans on living to be 80+ years old might be concerned about those issues.

My feeling is there are none, or at least not now they've got the bugs out, it does describe itself as essentially compressing the amount of sleep so you sleep less time but more effectively. Of course for a runner there is the minor issue that it does warn (no mechanics though) you are likely to be far more deeply asleep and not as easy to wake during that time. Which in itself raises the interesting issue of wage slave needing only 3 hours of sleep a night vs wage slave needing 8 but being able to be on call as a phone/com call will wake them up. However that's another thread.
Title: Re: Is Quickening Metamagic a trap?
Post by: Spooky on <03-07-17/1534:26>
Tarislar said: "Buffs make you better "defensively", but short of some boosted Drain dice, they do very little to improve a mage "Offensively" the way more diverse spell selection & power foci do."

my opinion is that the buff spells for reaction and intuition, combined with increase reflexes, all quickened,  make a mage almost unstoppably fast in combat, thus being very good at offense.
Title: Re: Is Quickening Metamagic a trap?
Post by: firebug on <03-07-17/1713:06>
Don't forget things like Increase Agility, or even Increase Strength if you're that kind of mage.  Potentially also Quickening Analyze Device...  Let's also not discount that having massively increased defenses (Combat Sense, Deflection, Increase REA & INT) allows you to be more reckless and offensive.  Saying that buffs do little to improve one's offense is an ignorant statement.

You can say "it's only +4 dice", but in a game where starting dice pools are around 12, that's an increase of over 30%, which is significant.
Title: Re: Is Quickening Metamagic a trap?
Post by: Tym Jalynsfein on <03-07-17/1818:46>
Our Combat Mage had all his Attributes Quickened once the campaign got really going. With Stats of 8-10 in everything, and an Initiative that was average in the Mid 40's, well, lets just say he was "Blindingly " fast. No, he could not sneak to save his life, but the quickened spells were Cast at such a High Force, typical Background counts in the campaign never bothered him all that much, and those spells were never dispelled, by ward or opposition mages. Of course, he was pretty damned easy to find, and it did not really keep him from getting the snot kicked out of him... Missiles through the bedroom window whilst asleep tend to do really bad things to a person in their underwear. :)
Title: Re: Is Quickening Metamagic a trap?
Post by: Hobbes on <03-07-17/1932:49>
It does simplify the planning stage considerably when the mage kicks everything off with a Ball lightning on the front door.
Title: Re: Is Quickening Metamagic a trap?
Post by: Tym Jalynsfein on <03-08-17/1136:51>
It does simplify the planning stage considerably when the mage kicks everything off with a Ball lightning on the front door.

Indeed it does... At Force 12...
Title: Re: Is Quickening Metamagic a trap?
Post by: RowanTheFox on <03-08-17/1617:16>
It does simplify the planning stage considerably when the mage kicks everything off with a Ball lightning on the front door.

Indeed it does... At Force 12...

My shaman, before she went NPC, once took out a room full of Humanis with a single fireball spell. MWAHAHAHA
Title: Re: Is Quickening Metamagic a trap?
Post by: Lormyr on <03-15-18/1023:22>
(Thread necro, sorry. A fun topic for me though, had to reply.)

Quickening is probably the single most powerful option in the game due to the breadth of spells available. My missions MysAd is over 800 karma now, and runs about 20 quickened spells on himself. It makes the character extremely resilient to just about everything, but also makes any form of stealth next to impossible. When I get a good GM at tables, they also make sure to harass me over license issues with law enforcement when I walk around visible or unmasked. Proper use of astral security and mana barriers also really limits the character when stealth or subtlety is necessary.

Buying hits is essential for maintaining any semblance of sanity balance wise in my opinion.
Title: Re: Is Quickening Metamagic a trap?
Post by: PiXeL01 on <03-15-18/1827:25>
Pressing against and through a barrier does NOT alert the owner. It was a mistake and deleted In the errata for SG
Title: Re: Is Quickening Metamagic a trap?
Post by: Kiirnodel on <03-16-18/0527:56>
Pressing through may have been errata'd, but it wasn't a mistake when it was written. The original writing is exactly how pressing through operated in the previous edition. And prior to 4th edition, there was no way to get through a barrier without attacking it.

Barriers being a thing that actually stops magic is kind of the point. I think it is a mistake for there to be an easy way to just side-step them, which they've now opened up with that errata...
Title: Re: Is Quickening Metamagic a trap?
Post by: Marcus on <03-16-18/0830:28>
Will someone please hit this thread with a shovel put it back to rest.
It was silly to begin with, of course there are risks when you quicken. It's stupid crazy strong, so there need to be solid checks on it.

If you wanna debate the errata go do it the errata forum, where it might make some kind of difference.
Title: Re: Is Quickening Metamagic a trap?
Post by: Mirikon on <03-17-18/0239:08>
Mana barriers being a problem and you glowing like a christmas tree on the astral were the only checks on quickened spells before. As Kiir said, Quickening is insanely powerful if you use it right. But that comes with the same risks as Heavy Milspec armor or assault cannons. It just screams, "HEY, CORPSEC! PAY EXTRA SPECIAL ATTENTION TO ME!"
Title: Re: Is Quickening Metamagic a trap?
Post by: Marcus on <03-17-18/0614:52>
Mana barriers being a problem and you glowing like a christmas tree on the astral were the only checks on quickened spells before. As Kiir said, Quickening is insanely powerful if you use it right. But that comes with the same risks as Heavy Milspec armor or assault cannons. It just screams, "HEY, CORPSEC! PAY EXTRA SPECIAL ATTENTION TO ME!"
As anyone who's had their quicken'ed spells dispelled knows it those are not the only checks. Losing karma Sucks, i don't care how much drain damage that mage took.
Title: Re: Is Quickening Metamagic a trap?
Post by: Mirikon on <03-18-18/0054:55>
Mana barriers being a problem and you glowing like a christmas tree on the astral were the only checks on quickened spells before. As Kiir said, Quickening is insanely powerful if you use it right. But that comes with the same risks as Heavy Milspec armor or assault cannons. It just screams, "HEY, CORPSEC! PAY EXTRA SPECIAL ATTENTION TO ME!"
As anyone who's had their quicken'ed spells dispelled knows it those are not the only checks. Losing karma Sucks, i don't care how much drain damage that mage took.
And that's part of the price you pay for getting incredibly powerful abilities.
Title: Re: Is Quickening Metamagic a trap?
Post by: Kiirnodel on <03-18-18/0512:20>
As anyone who's had their quicken'ed spells dispelled knows it those are not the only checks. Losing karma Sucks, i don't care how much drain damage that mage took.

And you're just complaining about losing that minimal karma based on what you chose to spend to protect your quickening. Back in 4th edition, Quickened spells cost karma equal to the Force PLUS extra to make it harder to dispell. These things are being made easier and cheaper for to do and people still complain that they can't just walk through barriers with them like they aren't there. Talk about being pampered...
Title: Re: Is Quickening Metamagic a trap?
Post by: Marcus on <03-18-18/0707:01>
And you're just complaining about losing that minimal karma based on what you chose to spend to protect your quickening. Back in 4th edition, Quickened spells cost karma equal to the Force PLUS extra to make it harder to dispell. These things are being made easier and cheaper for to do and people still complain that they can't just walk through barriers with them like they aren't there. Talk about being pampered...

*Sigh* Let me put it together for you. Cause looks like ya'll missed the point utterly.

It was silly to begin with, of course there are risks when you quicken. It's stupid crazy strong, so there need to be solid checks on it.
.

Mana barriers being a problem and you glowing like a christmas tree on the astral were the only checks on quickened spells before. As Kiir said, Quickening is insanely powerful if you use it right. But that comes with the same risks as Heavy Milspec armor or assault cannons. It just screams, "HEY, CORPSEC! PAY EXTRA SPECIAL ATTENTION TO ME!"

My reply
As anyone who's had their quicken'ed spells dispelled knows it those are not the only checks. Losing karma Sucks, i don't care how much drain damage that mage took.

So yes my point is as I said from the beginning, quickening is crazy strong and needs solid checks on it. If you're going to list the risks of quickening then list the real risk.

Any questions?

So stop putting words in my mouth, Kiir, and read the thread.
Title: Re: Is Quickening Metamagic a trap?
Post by: Kiirnodel on <03-19-18/0604:46>
I suppose you'll have to excuse my assumption that the comment about losing karma on quickened spells being dispelled was a complaint about how you should be able to keep your quickened spells?

Were you not lamenting about losing the minimum 1 karma on a quickened spell? That's the only thing I attributed to you, Marcus. You said "Losing karma sucks, [etc]" to which I replied "[yeah, and you're just talking about the amount it costs now]" And then continued on the stereotypical 'back in my day' rant of how it used to cost a bunch more karma. And man, people complain more about it now for some reason. (Seriously, I don't remember any heated debates back before 5th edition about how it is unfair that bypassing a barrier requires two extra metamagics)

Honestly, based on your apparent frustration with my comments, and your previous commentary that quickening is overpowered and should have more checks to keep it reigned in, I am completely lost on what your stance is. I was trying to say that barriers should be one of the checks in place to keep quickening in check...
Title: Re: Is Quickening Metamagic a trap?
Post by: Marcus on <03-19-18/0747:24>
Honestly, based on your apparent frustration with my comments, and your previous commentary that quickening is overpowered and should have more checks to keep it reigned in, I am completely lost on what your stance is. I was trying to say that barriers should be one of the checks in place to keep quickening in check...

Which in fact is also my position.
Title: Re: Is Quickening Metamagic a trap?
Post by: brombur on <03-19-18/2309:30>
So I didn't see any restriction noted about spells that have sustain limits, ie Control actions/Thoughts. Could a mage use quickening on those sustain spells and create an army of permanently enslaved zombies? what about mob thoughts?
Title: Re: Is Quickening Metamagic a trap?
Post by: Lormyr on <03-20-18/0755:31>
Yes, but the spell could eventually wear off as you continue to give the enslaved new commands to follow if the force of the spell is not sufficient to reduce their follow up resistance rolls to zero dice.

Dispelling is also a likely outcome to that endeavor at some point.
Title: Re: Is Quickening Metamagic a trap?
Post by: Mirikon on <03-20-18/1551:28>
Also, those kinds of things are stuff that makes people skip other mages and go out of their way to geek you first.