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SR5 a question about air spirit's engulf

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XandorDoom

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« on: <05-31-21/1642:38> »
Hi everyone,

A group of mine came across this scenario where we couldn't find proper clarification in the rules for the situation.

The group of runners were in a car chase, firing out the windows at the flying drones around them. The attacking drones were shot down, but the runners car got taken out by matrix damage and won't start up. The runners are still in the car when a spirit of air glides into melee with the car and uses engulf on the vehicle.

My question is can the engulf be used on the car and if yes how would the air spirits engulf affect the people in the car?

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #1 on: <05-31-21/1821:44> »
1) Can it be used on the car? Theoretically.  Mind you a car is a much bigger target than a metahuman, which is what the rules generally are assuming.  The GM would be will within their rights to say a spirit under some arbitrary force level cannot engulf something the size of a car.

2) would it do anything to the people inside?  I'd say no.  Principle of outside-in.  Spirit is crushing the vehicle.  It's the only thing thing in danger, for now.

3) what do you roll if the vehicle weren't bricked, and they tried to "drive" out?  Vehicles don't have Strength, so in place of Strength + Body I'd suggest Body + Body for the vehicle's side of the test.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Reaver

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« Reply #2 on: <05-31-21/1900:41> »
1) Can it be used on the car? Theoretically.  Mind you a car is a much bigger target than a metahuman, which is what the rules generally are assuming.  The GM would be will within their rights to say a spirit under some arbitrary force level cannot engulf something the size of a car.

2) would it do anything to the people inside?  I'd say no.  Principle of outside-in.  Spirit is crushing the vehicle.  It's the only thing thing in danger, for now.

3) what do you roll if the vehicle weren't bricked, and they tried to "drive" out?  Vehicles don't have Strength, so in place of Strength + Body I'd suggest Body + Body for the vehicle's side of the test.


Technically, if the vechile can't drive, it can't "break out" of the engulf. Its stationary.
However, this doesn't mean the vehicle is actually hurt by the engulf either.... so keep THAT in mind as well. (Vehicles have lots of body and armor. And some engulf effects are fairly pointless to an inanimate object).

What I would be concerned with, is how are guys going to get out of the vehicle, with a hostile spirit out there :P someone might have to take one the team
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Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #3 on: <05-31-21/1920:24> »
Technically, if the vechile can't drive, it can't "break out" of the engulf. Its stationary.

Exactly.  But if the vehicle HADN'T been bricked, I'd say even a stationary vehicle can attempt to pull out of an engulf. It's one thing to say a spirit can engulf something the size of a vehicle... it's quite another thing entirely to say the spirit is strong enough to pick the vehicle up while engulfing it and remove it from contact with the ground.  Naaah, I don't see that.  Not until we start talking about Great Forms or such.
« Last Edit: <05-31-21/1927:34> by Stainless Steel Devil Rat »
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Reaver

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« Reply #4 on: <05-31-21/2112:38> »
Technically, if the vechile can't drive, it can't "break out" of the engulf. Its stationary.

Exactly.  But if the vehicle HADN'T been bricked, I'd say even a stationary vehicle can attempt to pull out of an engulf. It's one thing to say a spirit can engulf something the size of a vehicle... it's quite another thing entirely to say the spirit is strong enough to pick the vehicle up while engulfing it and remove it from contact with the ground.  Naaah, I don't see that.  Not until we start talking about Great Forms or such.

Picking the vehicle up would be a Strength test. (I believe its covered in the runner's guide book, forget the name). And Strength for spirits is function their Force..

To pull this off, you would be talking about Max Troll type Strength, which in turn would mean a Spirit in the 10 to 14 range....

GOOD LUCK!!

Even a Spirit using something like Leviate wouldn't be able to pick up a car... bevause the max force of a spell is still limited by the Force of the Spirit... and if I recall correctly, its 1 force per 100kg.



More likely, the spirit has the immoblized car 'engulfed' but can't really do much to it other than make it bounce about on its shocks (no damage). However, the team is still trapped inside the car, which its disabled. Chances are, that Spirit's meat back up is on the way, and THAT is going to be the real issue when they show up.

So the Runners better figure out how to deal with the spirit before that happens.
Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.

XandorDoom

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« Reply #5 on: <06-01-21/0122:24> »
Would the outside-in principle apply here? The car has its windows open and the air spirits engulf attack has an inhalation based vector. I assume the spirit is sucking the air out of the engulfed target.

Xenon

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« Reply #6 on: <06-01-21/0252:12> »
If you want to create some real havoc you should let the spirit materialize inside the car before it start to engulf things ;-)

Reaver

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« Reply #7 on: <06-01-21/0338:31> »
Would the outside-in principle apply here? The car has its windows open and the air spirits engulf attack has an inhalation based vector. I assume the spirit is sucking the air out of the engulfed target.

well, this is your problem:

Spirits are generally a man sized object, and can generally target a man sized object... A car, no matter how small, is still bigger then a man sized object. but that is also mute.
the Engulf ability is a single target ability. If its engulfing the car, fine. But that is the car, NOT the Characters. This is not an AOE attack, even if you are attempting to turn it into one through scene manipulation.


IF you want to, fine... but you will be setting your self up later on...
« Last Edit: <06-02-21/1338:50> by Reaver »
Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #8 on: <06-01-21/1028:21> »
Would the outside-in principle apply here? The car has its windows open and the air spirits engulf attack has an inhalation based vector. I assume the spirit is sucking the air out of the engulfed target.

Absolutely.  Windows up or down or shot out: no difference.  If you want to engulf the people in the car, you have to engulf the people in the car.  Engulfing the car is doing nothing to the people in the car. Doing nothing directly, at any rate... the indirect effects of being engulfed could apply, given enough time*. But as a rule of thumb I would say there is no "I'm going to get X targets in one engulf by targeting the car they're all sitting in" loophole.

*Edit: When it comes to the "suck the air out" angle: I'd say a theoretical air spirit engulf of a vehicle could eventually suffocate the occupants within, but I wouldn't say it'd happen any faster than the car being engulfed by other means.  again unless the air spirit is engulfing the victims within, they have whatever ambient air was inside the passenger compartment at the start of the engulf.  Will it eventually run out?  Sure.  Quickly? No.


Edit 2: Mind you, this is no official ruling.  It's my opinion.  Is it reasonable to expect that a vehicle with open windows/doors COULD have the air sucked out by a spirit of air?  Or that people on a motorcyle or inside a dune buggy could be affected by an engulf targeting the vehicle?  RPGs have GMs for a reason.  GM discretion is Rule Zero and it trumps everything.  Go with what makes sense!  As Reaver warned you though: Beware opening pandoras box.  Once you give an inch, prepare to have to defend a mile.
« Last Edit: <06-01-21/1049:46> by Stainless Steel Devil Rat »
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.