NEWS

SR5 Money, Cash, Dough

  • 12 Replies
  • 939 Views

Hanzo

  • *
  • Newb
  • *
  • Posts: 65
« on: <05-25-21/0312:23> »
Hoi, Chummers!

For example a SINer has found a certified credstick with 10000 nuyen on it. What would happen to the SINer if he tries to transfer all the money to his bank account?

When Johnsons pay runners with credsticks, do the runners have to "laundry" these credsticks through some fixers?

Xenon

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 6374
« Reply #1 on: <05-25-21/0603:40> »
a SINer has found a certified credstick with 10000 nuyen on it. What would happen to the SINer if he tries to transfer all the money to his bank account?
The SINner would get 100.000 nuyen on his bank account.

Certified Credsticks work similar to paper cash back in 2021. They belong to whoever carries them. If someone physically steal it or if you physically give it to someone else then it is theirs. No data trail involved in that 'transaction'

If you slot the certified credstick in a credstick reader that is connected to the matrix and the financial institute that certified the credstick then you can transfer money too and from it.

You can transfer money from it to your own bank account (that is connected to your SIN)
...to someone else's bank account (maybe because you bought items or services from them)
...or to another certified credstick (because you want to hand over the certified credstick as payment to a team of shadowrunners and you don't want to leave a data trail of the transaction that can be traced back to you).

Items and services you buy with your bank account will be traced back to you and the SIN you used.
Items and services you buy with your certified credstick cannot be traced back to your and the SIN you used.
If you are using a fake SIN and it is burned then so will bank accounts connected to this SIN (but not certified credsticks that you are in possession of).


When Johnsons pay runners with credsticks, do the runners have to "laundry" these credsticks through some fixers?
No.
« Last Edit: <05-25-21/0605:34> by Xenon »

Beta

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 1900
  • SR1 player, SR5 GM@FtF & player@PbP
« Reply #2 on: <05-25-21/1511:49> »
Credsticks were working before the wireless matrix was a thing (and so before everyone had commlinks).  The technology is solid enough that they still get quite a bit of use.

I've not seen it spelled out so clearly, but I think they come in two flavours:
- ones that are attached to an identity (likely largely superseded by people just handling routine transactions with their commlink), these would always need authorization from the owner in some way to permit a transfer
- certified credsticks, where the value is held purely on the cred-stick, not attached to any identity or account.  A bit like cash, a bit like bearer bonds, a bit their own thing.

Personally I always thought that certified credsticks should only be a shuttle, not something you move money on and off of regularly.  That 'certified' bit being that it was certified by a financial institution, in some manner, that this much value was put on this credstick.  So when you check the value on one you see both the value and the certification.  However I'm pretty sure that the fluff has people using them more like pre-paid visa cards, able to take a certified credstick and buy drinks with it, pay a taxi driver, etc.

Tipperman  --
speechthoughtmatrix

Reaver

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 6392
  • 60% alcohol 40% asshole...
« Reply #3 on: <05-25-21/1550:17> »
In older editions, credit sticks came in a bunch of flavours.

Certified
Standard
Silver
Gold
Platinum
Black.

Each one had a certain cash limit, AND rating that was used in a test Vs the reader.
It was a complex mechanic thats been "dumbed" down for ease of play. (And one of the better changes 4e brought in.).

Nowadays (5e), you just have to really worry about is just SINs and Cettifird Stics (which don't need a SIN).... everything else is pretty much fluff.
Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.

CanRay

  • *
  • Freelancer
  • Mr. Johnson
  • ***
  • Posts: 11139
  • Spouter of Random Words
    • CanRay's Artistic Work
« Reply #4 on: <05-25-21/2225:03> »
Hoi, Chummers!

For example a SINer has found a certified credstick with 10000 nuyen on it. What would happen to the SINer if he tries to transfer all the money to his bank account?
Same thing that'd happen if a person found a briefcase full of money in it and tried to deposit into their bank account.

The bank will be really, really nice to them.  The cops asking where the hell the money came from, much less so.  The criminal organization who owned that briefcase, less so.

Also, The Tax Man will be on your hoop like flies on drek.
Si vis pacem, para bellum

#ThisTaserGoesTo11

Michael Chandra

  • *
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Prime Runner
  • ***
  • Posts: 9855
  • Question-slicing ninja
« Reply #5 on: <05-26-21/0344:02> »
Eh, just properly pay your taxes and the Tax Man won't care. (And the SINner quality comes with a handwaved 10% Lifestyle increase to represent normal taxes.) Evidence IRS won't care: Lou Graham's "seamstresses". But yeah, unless you have a good excuse to frequently handle large amounts of cash, there will be questions.
How am I not part of the forum?? O_O I am both active and angry!

Hanzo

  • *
  • Newb
  • *
  • Posts: 65
« Reply #6 on: <05-26-21/0351:48> »
Same thing that'd happen if a person found a briefcase full of money in it and tried to deposit into their bank account.

The bank will be really, really nice to them.  The cops asking where the hell the money came from, much less so.  The criminal organization who owned that briefcase, less so.

Also, The Tax Man will be on your hoop like flies on drek.

That's why I was asking about doing some "laundry" in the second question. Basically the runners need some sort of a fixer who can "clean" this money and safely transfer them onto your bank account in case you need to do some payments via Matrix.

I guess that not all the landlords will be happy to get a rent on a credstick because they will also have to "laundry" the money on the very same reasons. Unless you rent a flat somewhere in the barrens.

sidslick

  • *
  • Newb
  • *
  • Posts: 98
« Reply #7 on: <05-26-21/0424:35> »
In the real world, banks and financial authorities only really take significant notice if a person transfers a significant sum into their account in a single go - typically $10,000 or more - unless there is a really, really good reason (lottery win, compensation, etc). 

If you play this out in the games, and you want to prevent official notice, simply transfer smaller sums of money into an account - assuming that the character has one (difficult if you're SINless) - perhaps 2 payments of $5,000 or 4 payments of $2,500. Alternatively, make use of a shadow broker (like Mr Bonds) who will handle and invest your character's money for a suitable fee.
Travel the world; meet new people; crush them for all they are worth!

Hanzo

  • *
  • Newb
  • *
  • Posts: 65
« Reply #8 on: <05-26-21/0440:29> »
A Shdow Broker is a good idea for a starting contract. This contract will deal your illegal money activity to make it legal. I guess that every SINner (either legal or not) who has no traces in the Matrix on cash flow or any money activity but has a lot of gear and equipment - is a VERY suspicious SINner.

Michael Chandra

  • *
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Prime Runner
  • ***
  • Posts: 9855
  • Question-slicing ninja
« Reply #9 on: <05-26-21/0447:26> »
As a sidenote, SR4 had rules on money laundering and escrow services, normally those cost 10% iirc.

Aight, I just checked Unwired: One-time accounts and escrow services cost 10%, a Numbered Credit Account for normal laundering cost you 100 nuyen per month in upkeep. For clear laundering, 10% is a decent fee. For 'keep my illegal gains safe', you'd use the 100/month account. Basically that is an illegal bank account you use for paying people illegally.
How am I not part of the forum?? O_O I am both active and angry!

Reaver

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 6392
  • 60% alcohol 40% asshole...
« Reply #10 on: <05-26-21/1508:27> »
As a sidenote, SR4 had rules on money laundering and escrow services, normally those cost 10% iirc.

Aight, I just checked Unwired: One-time accounts and escrow services cost 10%, a Numbered Credit Account for normal laundering cost you 100 nuyen per month in upkeep. For clear laundering, 10% is a decent fee. For 'keep my illegal gains safe', you'd use the 100/month account. Basically that is an illegal bank account you use for paying people illegally.


I think, for the most part, its just assumed your character is using services like escrow accounts, or shadow banking services if you're a Runner....
Part of that "Ease of gameplay" thing that people keep claiming thr market wants....

OTOH tracking which SIN is linked to what Credstic, and what funds you have on each (the 3e system) is rather tedious once you're used to 4/5e "handwave" on the issue, even if its more immersive.
Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.

Wakshaani

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 2223
« Reply #11 on: <05-27-21/0202:14> »
Same thing that'd happen if a person found a briefcase full of money in it and tried to deposit into their bank account.

The bank will be really, really nice to them.  The cops asking where the hell the money came from, much less so.  The criminal organization who owned that briefcase, less so.

Also, The Tax Man will be on your hoop like flies on drek.

That's why I was asking about doing some "laundry" in the second question. Basically the runners need some sort of a fixer who can "clean" this money and safely transfer them onto your bank account in case you need to do some payments via Matrix.

I guess that not all the landlords will be happy to get a rent on a credstick because they will also have to "laundry" the money on the very same reasons. Unless you rent a flat somewhere in the barrens.

Of course, if you're dipping into the Barrens, you're in an area that uses a LOT of cash, since many, if not most, of the lowest quintile are bankless. They not only don't have banks, but they may well be SINless (or just as bad, have criminal SINS) and they don't like just leaving that identity all over the place.

The Barrens are where many a Shadowrunner lives not because they can't afford elsewhere but because eit's the only place that's, well, in the shadows … you can hide out there. nobody wants your SIN, nobody wants your credstick … they want cash and they don't wanna know nuthin' cause knowin' just means trouble.

So you get a little rathole, pay cash for it, get a decent VR rig inside, pay off the local gang because it just ain't worth the trouble of kickin' hoop to get your stuff back, so you'd rather they not take it at all, and you eat soy out of a can most of the time but you can splurge when you gotta. Out there, you never gotta turn your commlink on, never gotta give a SIN, and never have to worry about credits … just cold hard cash.

Xenon

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 6374
« Reply #12 on: <05-27-21/0504:42> »
At least in 5th edition it seem as if actual cash is rarely used. Only for special transactions or in areas so backwards they don’t even have Matrix access at all (CRB p. 39)

If you are SINless or if you wish to do a transaction without involving a SIN or leaving a data trail it seem as if you would typically use certified credsticks. Certified credsticks seem to be the go-to method for most shadowrunners.

In more respectable areas it seem as if most shops and public services etc require that you are a legit citizen (passing a SIN verification) and also that most transactions seem to be conducted via bank account transfer (which are linked to a specific SIN and this will also create a data trail linked to this specific SIN), but also that certified credsticks will be accepted in most cases.

Also, in many corporate extraterritorial ares it seem to be common that the corporation pay their employees in corporate scrip (rather than regular nuyen), usable only in corporate locales as it keeps money in the corporate family. But also that there is a thriving black market for scrip exchanges.