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SR5 Shopping)))

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Hanzo

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« on: <05-08-21/0657:06> »
Howdy, chummers!

This is gonna be a question regarding the Lore but not the mechanics.

Uhhmm... How do people, including the runners, go shopping? Is going on foot to the WallMart so generic in 2k75? Or do you order a delivery to your door? I can get understand that this is included into your lifestyle and you don't have to worry about this.

But what about gun stores and pawnshop? Can a SINner of FakeSINner go in and buy some legal or restricted stuff without any Availability Test. I guess it's all up to GM, but still.

Xenon

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« Reply #1 on: <05-08-21/0922:25> »
For legal items that have a low availability you just go to the store and buy. If you don't have a SIN (not even a fake one) you can probably find them on the black market or just ask/beg someone to buy them for you. For higher availability you typically need to track down the seller and exchange credits face to face. Shadowrunners typically pay with certified credsticks rather than with a bank account as certified credsticks tend to not leave as much of a data trail.


Mechanically low availability and legal everyday things like cloths. food, electricity, water, locks for your front door. etc etc. are typically handwaved via Lifestyle expenses. As for other items, use the Availability Table on SR6 p. 245 to get a sense of how easy or hard they are to buy.

For example, a Taser, a Concealable holster or a Used Datajack can be found just about anywhere. If youíre in a relatively civilized area, just walk a few blocks, and youíll find a place that sells this. They are also fully legal and doesn't require a License.

A Katana, a Gyro mount or a pair of Rating 3-6 Cybereyes are starting to be a boutique items, the type of things aficionados seek out, or things that are made in relatively small batches. Theyíre not the rarest items, but theyíre also not sitting in a ton of stores across the sprawl. They fully legal and doesn't require a License.

Ingram Valiant machine gun, a Full Body Armor or Tailored pheromones are specialty market items. These are things not intended for mass markets, and their specialized function isnít for everyone. Few people in any given sprawl carry them, and their supplies are limited. The three listed items also require a License in order to legally possess or transport them. Licenses are bought and attached to SINs (or fake SINs).

A Barret Model 122, an Anti-Vehicle Missile or Wired Reflexes 4 are quite rare, often hand-crafted items. Small workshops and specialty manufacturers make them, and youíll never find them at a major retailer. Work hard, and you might track a by-appointment seller who will sell you one. All three of them are illegal for private ownership in most places, which means they are only allowed in the possession of security, megacorporate, or government entities.

Reaver

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« Reply #2 on: <05-09-21/0012:49> »
Howdy, chummers!

This is gonna be a question regarding the Lore but not the mechanics.

Uhhmm... How do people, including the runners, go shopping? Is going on foot to the WallMart so generic in 2k75? Or do you order a delivery to your door? I can get understand that this is included into your lifestyle and you don't have to worry about this.

But what about gun stores and pawnshop? Can a SINner of FakeSINner go in and buy some legal or restricted stuff without any Availability Test. I guess it's all up to GM, but still.

Well, you've kind of got a "lore" and a "rule" question mixed into one there :D

Lore Wise:
The same way any group of people without proper ID get by today...
For mundane items they just walk into a shop and buy it just like anyone else out there. For most goods that a person needs to survive, an ID today really isn't required (of course, the quality of said items may be lacking...) As long as you got cash, you can get just about anything...
No one cares about your ID when you buy food...
Most SROs* don't require more then a name..
As for things that require ID to get... well there is an other market for them, if they can find it. :P

Now in SR with their SIN system, things are not all that different. Yes, you need a SIN to have a bank account and thus a credstick... But merchants will still take Certified Cred (the SR version of Cash)...
And a Coffin motel only has a credit stick reader... (so again... certified cred works!)

As for items that require a SIN (such as a firearm) well, they are not walking into Ares Arms Armory (TM) to make that purchase.. But Crime Mall in the Barrens just takes Certified Cred.. :P

Mechanically:

The availability rating gives you an idea of how common an item is, and Xenon does a good job of breaking it down.
Essentially, the higher the TN in the availability code, the more rare the item, and thus the more "looking" someone may have to do. If the item is not tagged with an (r) or (f), then basically no one cares...
(I'll pay by certified cred, please!)
If the item is tagged with a (R) (restricted) tag, well then, this is where issues come up. If you have a SIN and a license (you need that first), then no issue! make your purchase as normal and go about your day, you lawful citizen, you!
IF you don't have a SIN, or don't have a license? well, too bad for you, please come back when you do! At least legally. AS I said above, The Crime mall in the barrens will happily sell you everything from socks and bottled water to Assault canons and Missile launchers.... and the only question they ask is: "How much cash you got?"

As for forbidden items.... Well.. They get given to you. you don't "buy" them as a legal citizen... And the organization will take them back when they decide you are done with them... (what, you DIDN'T read your employment contract cyberware clause??? Too bad!)..
But again, the Crime mall might have it..


Now if it comes by Drone to you door or not... well that depends. Sure why not. But then again, this is probably only an option for the SINners.. or those with good fake SINs...after all, there is a huge range of things that have to happen to actually place the order for delivery, and all of those would require some sort of SIN verification.

Have to log on to the net (SIN required for matrix access, or faked)
have to log on to the Service host (Sin Required).
have to pay for the order (SIN check to take the funds from your account)
Have to provide an address for delivery (which usually requires a SIN to rent or own, but admittedly not always).

Not to mention it probably took a SIN to buy the commlink you are using to make the order :P

Mind you, in the 2080s if you don't have a SIN, real or fake... drone delivery is the least of your problems.





Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #3 on: <05-09-21/0045:50> »
Not to get all political, but living SINless has a very real analogue: undocumented immigrants.  Hard to get a job, and when you can it's often off the books and you have limited recourse should your employer screw you over.  Ditto for landlords, because forget about getting a mortgage to buy property.  Establishing a credit history is a bitch even for "legal" immigrants, so think about what it means to have to pay cash (certified credit, in SR) for everything.  You're dependent on ATMs, and/or payday loan sharks to keep a cache of cash on hand, and of course dealing with cash over the matrix is risky at best, when it's even possible.  Above-board retailers will be hard to conduct business with when you lack a SIN, making you have to rely on 2nd hand markup artists reselling goods to SINless like yourself, or black markets where all sorts of risks are inherent.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, youíre fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Hanzo

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« Reply #4 on: <05-09-21/0508:17> »

Have to log on to the net (SIN required for matrix access, or faked)


Do you wanna say that I need a SIN/FakeSIN to form the Persona on my commlink to access the Matrix and interract with Matrix Objects? So SIN/FakeSIN and the Persona are somehow interrelated?
« Last Edit: <05-09-21/1129:54> by Hanzo »

Xenon

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« Reply #5 on: <05-09-21/0527:26> »
(I just realized that my answer above was based upon 6th edition rather than 5th edition, but most parts of it are still accurate I think even though details in the mechanics changed slightly)


...living SINless has a very real analogue: undocumented immigrants. 
This is how I see it as well.

Having a System Identification Number seem to be akin to having a Social Security Number or a  Personal Number. Being 'in the the system' (having a 'Green Card'). System Identification Number Verification seem to be more focused on verifying if the subject 'is an actual legit citizen' or not than anything else.

Many day-to-day activities get a lot more complicated if you lack a System Identification Number compared to if you have one (fake or otherwise).


Have to log on to the net (SIN required for matrix access, or faked)
Do you wanna say that I need to form the Persona on my commlink to access the Matrix and interract with Matrix Objects? So SIN/FakeSIN and the Persona are somehow interrelated?
You have access the Public Grid even if you are not a legal citizen (even if you don't have a SIN, fake or otherwise).

But it is plausible that you need a SIN (fake or otherwise) in order to get an actual Grid Subscription....
« Last Edit: <05-09-21/0546:30> by Xenon »

Hanzo

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« Reply #6 on: <05-09-21/1141:04> »
You have access the Public Grid even if you are not a legal citizen (even if you don't have a SIN, fake or otherwise).

But it is plausible that you need a SIN (fake or otherwise) in order to get an actual Grid Subscription....

So can a runner wake up in the morning with a SIN formed of one commlink, move around a town for a whle, then move to a secret Ares Lab somewhere in the suburbs, make my another commlink, that is at home at at the moment, show the SIN, go SINless mode in my first commlink to form the PAN?

What sort of a Matrix Object is SIN? A link? a file?

Reaver

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« Reply #7 on: <05-09-21/1239:46> »

Have to log on to the net (SIN required for matrix access, or faked)


Do you wanna say that I need a SIN/FakeSIN to form the Persona on my commlink to access the Matrix and interract with Matrix Objects? So SIN/FakeSIN and the Persona are somehow interrelated?


No, I am saying "think about the order of operations."

To access the matrix, you need a commlink, registered to you.
But, to buy and register ownership of the commlink, you need a SIN to link the registration to...(even if its a fake one)

If you don't have a Sin (or fake SIN) then digitally, you are a non entity and can't have ownership...

Its all very convoluted. But at the end of the day, with out a SIN, you are very much limited in what you can do in a modern society. Hell, you are not even allowed to walk some streets with out a SIN! So, if you don't have a SIN how do you live?
You live of the fringes of Society. You don't rent a nice apartment in  a decent neighborhood, you squat in an abandoned building.
You don't go to nice restaurants... you barter for Soy-paste and and eat at McHughs (cause they take Certified Cred, and their SIN scanner is so basic, it may as well not exist!)
You don't buy your clothing from a Zoe/Armani boutique, you buy paper clothing from a vending machine or from the thrift shop (cause, again, CC reader, and cheap SIN scanner)

Now in the dystopia that is SR, there is a whole LOT of SINless. And I do mean A WHOILE LOT... how do they survive?

They scrape out a living in the areas of cities that have been abandoned by society, and establish their own networks for trade and goods... This is often referred to as a "Grey market"... Grey markets don't usually sell illegal items per say, but what they do sell is often consumer goods that are regulated or licensed by governments.

For example, First Nation produced Cigarettes in Canada. Due to our tax system and laws, if I want a pack of smokes from the gas station, its $15.50, however,  First Nations can buy smokes from a First Nations shop for $3.50... Because they don't pay taxes. So what do you think happens?? First Nations buy up the packs of smokes for $3.5 each... then sell them  to non First Nations for $10.00 each! Its illegal of course, as the government doesn't get its $10.00 sin tax per pack... but that doesn't stop it from happening...

Also, businesses in SR are aware of the SINless, and they are aware of their bottom line, and their Image. They know that just because you are SINless doesn't mean you don't have money (cert cred remember?). But they also have a image to maintain (maybe).
So while McHughes has to comply with a city's laws to stay open, they also know exactly who and what they are.. (Cheap, barely edible fast food) So, how much effort do you really think they put into their SIN Checker? its going to be a basic "do you have money? (Yes/No) solution. They don't care about anything else!
Same thing with many of the other "lower" class businesses that see the SINless as potential customers.

But what about, say, Ares Arms Armory, where they sell all the new lead spitting toys developed by Ares for the discerning customer interested in self protection and a large holes in objects?
Well, Ares has a Reputation to up hold. And there are laws around who can own a firearm and who can not. Sure they want to make a sale, but they a Reputation to think about! Not to mention the image of Ares Arms Armory! They can't have the unwashed masses leaving greasy prints on their shiny toys for the well to do! And think of the scandal if a "proper" citizen was shot by gun purchased from AAA by a member of the unwashed masses! No, that would never do!

Naturally, Ares is going to use a SIN scanner, and its probably going to be a decent to good one (at the very least its going to meet minimum code requirements). And they are going to run a check on every single person that comes in to buy a weapon. So SINless need not show up. (they don't want you!) And why don't they want you? Well because you don't have a SIN, and thus you don't have a license, thus selling to you is illegal and could lead to legal issues for the store if they sold you a weapon and you used it in a crime! (like walking while SINless!) Remember, Guns have serial numbers and other methods of tracking where they were made, who they were sold to (initially), and who purchased them (initially)
However, the Crime Mall will happily sell you the same Bang-Bang for a little more... it just "fell off the back of a truck" (IE: guns that Ares has reported as stolen, or destroyed, or is lacking a serial number)

What not mentioned (because its "fluff" and people seem to get mad when "fluff" is included) is that while there is a huge divide between the SIN and the SINless in terms of what they can and can not do legally... Organiztions, structures and systems get developed to always make sure goods flow to those that can pay for them (regardless of paperwork) But those avenues of movement are always shaky and could collapse at any time, change locations, or simple disappear.
(If gun violence by the Sinless gets out of hand, the police start raiding greya nd black markets to get guns off the streets for example)

Runners, who by nature of their jobs are required to keep a low profile to the world (IE usually SINless), make do with Fake Sins, and the services built up to cater to their needs.
Sure as Shadow banks for their credsticks. (because regular banks require SINs....)
Shadow Matrix networks for their matrix subscription.
Fake SINs made by the organized crime...

But honestly? Most SINless can't afford these services, or can't find them, and make do without.



All of this is in the books. its just spread around in a blurb here and a sentence there...
Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #8 on: <05-09-21/1242:20> »
You have access the Public Grid even if you are not a legal citizen (even if you don't have a SIN, fake or otherwise).

But it is plausible that you need a SIN (fake or otherwise) in order to get an actual Grid Subscription....

So can a runner wake up in the morning with a SIN formed of one commlink, move around a town for a whle, then move to a secret Ares Lab somewhere in the suburbs, make my another commlink, that is at home at at the moment, show the SIN, go SINless mode in my first commlink to form the PAN?

What sort of a Matrix Object is SIN? A link? a file?

I would disagree with the sentiment that you need a SIN (or fake SIN) to have matrix service.  Having matrix access without a SIN is absolutely possible, but having matrix access without a persona is not.  Ergo, they are not the same thing.  Being SINless and having matrix access is analogous to having a pre-paid/pay-as-you-go cell phone service today.  Deal in cash/certified credit, and there's no need for personal/financial data being collected by your service provider. (and this anonymity is basically the entire point, for shadowrunners...)

As SIN is not any kind of matrix object. It cannot by hacked or modified by players. At least, not under the given rules.  A SIN is analogous to a national identity (SSN in the US) but instead of being maintained by one national database, it's a global registry with redundant backups.  Even if you were to hack the UCAS SIN registry to alter or create a SIN, the fakery would be moot as it doesn't match the records in backups, or other concurrent corporate and global databases.  Falsifying a SIN is a "hack" that has to be done almost entirely within the system with legitimate access, and takes years of time to craft, so that the fakery can be accepted over time by the global network.
« Last Edit: <05-09-21/1249:25> by Stainless Steel Devil Rat »
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, youíre fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Xenon

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« Reply #9 on: <05-09-21/1331:05> »
You have access the Public Grid even if you are not a legal citizen (even if you don't have a SIN, fake or otherwise).

But it is plausible that you need a SIN (fake or otherwise) in order to get an actual Grid Subscription....
So can a runner wake up in the morning with a SIN formed of one commlink, move around a town for a whle, then move to a secret Ares Lab somewhere in the suburbs, make my another commlink, that is at home at at the moment, show the SIN, go SINless mode in my first commlink to form the PAN?

What sort of a Matrix Object is SIN? A link? a file?
You can only use (access the matrix) via one commlink at a time. It is from this commlink your persona will originate and it is from this commlink that you (or rather your matrix persona) broadcast your SIN (fake or otherwise).

To switch to another commlink you need to first reboot both comminks.

Once you are accessing the matrix via your other commlink it will be this commlink where your matrix persona originates from and it is from this commlink that you (or your matrix persona) will broadcast your SIN.



To access the matrix, you need a commlink, registered to you.
It seem as if you are allowed to buy (be the "matrix owner") of electronic devices without having a SIN. It seem as if you can also transfer ownership of electronic devices (or hack ownership) to someone that doesn't have a SIN. Having a SIN is not a requirement for having a lifestyle, in this edition, and if your fake SIN is burned you will still be the legit matrix owner of all your electronic devices (and your lifestyle).

The only thing that technically seem to be linked to your SIN (and will be burned together with your SIN if your SIN is burned) seem to be licences and bank accounts. And skillsoft subscriptions (which is why I think it might be plausible that you also need a SIN for an actual Grid Subscription in case you don't want to just use the Public Grid - but perhaps you don't need a SIN for this after all).



Ares is going to use a SIN scanner, and its probably going to be a decent to good one (at the very least its going to meet minimum code requirements). And they are going to run a check on every single person that comes in to buy a weapon. So SINless need not show up. (they don't want you!) And why don't they want you? Well because you don't have a SIN, and thus you don't have a license, thus selling to you is illegal and could lead to legal issues for the store if they sold you a weapon and you used it in a crime! (like walking while SINless!)
Agreed.

Many legal stores will run a SIN verification on potential customers. They might have a corporate policy to not even let SINless into the store. And this goes double for stores that are selling restricted items (as you say, to have a License you first need to have a SIN - fake or otherwise).


I would disagree with the sentiment that you need a SIN (or fake SIN) to have matrix service. 
Agreed. You don't need a SIN to access the Matrix.

I find it plausible that you need a SIN to register a Grid Subscription to one of the big Global Grids (similar to how you need a SIN to register a Skillsoft Subscription), but it is also possible that you don't need a SIN for this. That was not really my point to be honest :-)

In any case you can always also access the Matrix via the Public Grid (no matter if you have a SIN or not). So having a SIN is for sure not a requirement to access the Matrix.



Having matrix access without a SIN is absolutely possible
Agreed.

It is explicit that anyone can access the Matrix via the Public Grid which mean you don't need a subscription to access the Matrix which mean you don't need a SIN to access the Matrix.

(And perhaps you don't need a SIN to have a global grid subscription either)



but having matrix access without a persona is not.
Agreed.

Whenever you are accessing the matrix you will have a matrix persona.

Your matrix persona seem to be your.... Single Sign On Global Internet Identity / IM Name / Email Address / Phone Number. All in one.
« Last Edit: <05-09-21/1734:01> by Xenon »

Reaver

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« Reply #10 on: <05-10-21/0007:54> »
I freely admit that all this is overly complicated. I personally believe that most of this is due to the shoe horning of a "hack anything Wire-less matrix" that came along in 4e, and has continued to be a problem in 5e. From what Xenon is saying, it sounds like 6e may have fixed some of this.....

on page 366 CRB 5e we get everything about SINs in a small area.

Quote
The foundation of an identity in the Sixth World is the
System Identification Number (SIN). If someone wanted
to divide the world into two groups of people, it could
be done by saying there are those who have a SIN and
those who donít. That is, if you even consider the SINless
to be ďpeople,Ē which some donít. Modern society
in 2075 produces a staggering amount of information
every second of every day: where you are, what you
buy, and what you do. With the system producing all of
these pieces of information, there needs to be an easy
way to store, track, and correlate it. All of that information
needs to be associated with a person somehow.
Thatís where the SIN comes in.

So right in the first paragraph, we know that a SIN is storing more then just some basic age, name, sex, race data. It tracking A LOT more... If you want to go back through the editions, and assume they didn't feel like printing it all over again: A SIN contains every little factoid about you and your life. Where you live and lived, where you went to school, what your grades where, who you are/were employed with. Right on down to that "Also Ran" achievement they gave you in elementary school for coming in last in that race... Basically, if it got entered into a database somewhere, it been attached to your SIN

But it goes on...
Quote
A SIN is issued to a person
a birth, and stays with them (baring exceptional circumstances)
for the rest of their life. A SIN identifies a person
in the global information system and is attached
to every piece of information associated with them in
the Matrix. No aspect of modern or legal life can function
without a SIN. Those who donít have one canít get a
job, canít buy food, canít even walk down the street. To
the system, these people donít exist.

which is basically what everyone is saying. No SIN, and you're screwed. There is no service in the modern world that really deals with you... (And is probably part of the reason Hanzo was asking in the first place:P )

Some of the confusion however is probably due to the this next part under "Issuing a SIN"
Quote
However, this means that anyone with
access to the proper software, like law enforcement
agents and other government officials, can know several
things just by looking at the SIN: your name, birth
date, place of birth, and nation that issued the SIN

To me, all this means is that base info is easy to Law Enforcement to read. But that doesn't mean that all the SIN contains, nor does that mean that all the Law Enforcement can tell by looking at a SIN... Its just what can be found easily... And for a game, and game mechanic that all it needs to do... Because, well, this is a game of action, and not a game of sitting in  detention cell for weeks and or months while the police run a forensic audit of the SIN you were caught with to see if they can link your location to any crimes... (which is exactly what would happen in the real world - as they do with Cell Phones!)


Now I will freely admit that the matrix is not my strong point. And this is why I say the Wireless matrix has really kind of Fucked up SINs...

You end up with a lot of circular logic when you look at the relationship of SINs and Personas...

A Persona is formed on any device that you use to log into the matrix, regardless of if you own the device. Ok great....
SINs are supposedly the data store of everything your are and own in the digital world of 2070s... and yet people seem to think that its Personas that store info, when they really don't.
Quote
A persona is more or less what it sounds like: a person
in the Matrix. A persona is the combination of a user
and a device that gets the user onto the Matrix.
The
fact that the device has a user overrides the deviceís
normal icon status, turning it into a persona. A persona
is usually based on a commlink, cyberdeck, or rigged
vehicle or drone, although technomancers are a sort of
device-less persona.
   

So questions of ownership, and what not really don't have anything to do with a Persona directly. And probably relate back to your SIN, in some way shape and form in some automatic way. After all, IF the persona is nothing more then a User and a Device, information such as the bank account to pay your Subscriptions, purchases, and debits has to be be somewhere. The fact that you own things has to be recorded somewhere.. and its not directly the Persona (a User and the device connected to the matrix)

But it doesn't really spell any of this out.. its all left murky and incomplete rules/fluff wise and we are left to try to suss it out.

And IF this stuff IS somehow magically stored directly in the Persona, Why deal with SINs at all? It would make more sense to turn Personas, thanks to their unique and unhackable nature into "the New SIN"... and scrap the old system that is generating faulty data (AKA fake SINs)..

(Aside from the obvious, "The Corps need the ability to make fake SINs themselves, and thus don't care")   


And.... down the Ownership rabbit hole we go (again!)
<Please, Spirits! Not again!! not the dreaded Ownership rabbit hole  AGAIN!!! Take my finger nails!! Take my toe nails!! Just NOT the ownership rabbit hole again!! >
Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.

Xenon

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« Reply #11 on: <05-10-21/0844:57> »
on page 366 CRB 5e we get everything about SINs in a small area.

Quote
The foundation of an identity in the Sixth World is the
System Identification Number (SIN). If someone wanted
to divide the world into two groups of people, it could
be done by saying there are those who have a SIN and
those who don’t. That is, if you even consider the SINless
to be “people,” which some don’t. Modern society
in 2075 produces a staggering amount of information
every second of every day: where you are, what you
buy, and what you do. With the system producing all of
these pieces of information, there needs to be an easy
way to store, track, and correlate it. All of that information
needs to be associated with a person somehow.
That’s where the SIN comes in.

So right in the first paragraph, we know that a SIN is storing more then just some basic age, name, sex, race data.

The SIN (the number itself) have 5 encoded things.
Name
Date of birth
Place of birth
Nation or Corp that issued the SIN
Checksum

With the correct software you can decode this right out of the SIN. From the number itself. The number itself doesn't contain more information than this.


It tracking A LOT more...

Various databases on the matrix track what you (or rather your SIN that your matrix persona is broadcasting) have been up to. It is this information that a SIN verification unit is validating. Making sure that all the logged intimation adds up. That your entire history is plausible. That it isn't fake.

But none of this information is actually presented to the SIN verification unit operator (such as the clerk behind the counter at Stuffer Shack). All he receive is a binary response.
Either Yes, this subject is a legit citizen
Or No, this subject is not a legit citizen.

And none of that information is encoded into the number itself. Nor stored in your local commlink. Nor broadcasted by your matrix persona.

The number itself typically remain unchanged for your entire life.


Why deal with SINs at all?

SIN is there to verify that you are a legit citizen.
Only legit citizens have a legit SIN.

Why not use the persona? Because anyone, even SINless, have a matrix persona. Just checking that a subject have a matrix persona is not enough to understand if they are legit citizens or not.

To verify that the subject is a legit citizen you want to cross check to make sure all that information you just mentioned exists and seem to match. That there are no inconsistencies. That the integrity of the SIN holds up. That it is not a manufactured (fake) SIN.
« Last Edit: <05-10-21/0948:49> by Xenon »

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #12 on: <05-10-21/1333:33> »
If the question is: "Why do in-universe authorities just not use Personas as IDs, since they can't be hacked and SINs can be?"

Then, there's numerous answers why.

1) (technobabble) prevents that from being viable, in-universe.

2) While one cannot impersonate someone else's persona, one can arguably give themselves a new, also unique persona.  One cannot just stop using a SIN and start using a new one.

3) RPGs might be thought of as "you can do anything you can imagine", but in practice, no that's not really the case.  What do I mean? Let's say you want to argue with a GM that your runner can jump from Seattle to the Moon.  You argue that if you pre-edge to get the rule of exploding 6s, and note that the moon is about 3,844,000 meters up, and so "all you need is" X number of exploding 6s on your athletics test... so that by RAW you can launch yourself to the moon if you get that many hits.... but you're not playing a RPG at that point.  You're engaging in rules-lawyering.  Granted that's fun for some people, but "clearly" you can't jump from earth to the moon, no matter what loopholes may exist in the game rules.  When it comes to the fantastical or fictional aspects of the game world, you can't necessarily rely on common sense or real world example.  Naturally, this includes anything involving the Matrix: you can do what the rules permit, and there's no allowance for what the rules don't govern (like, 6e forgot to give rules for jumping!  But "clearly", jumping up at least SOME height is possible right, based on real life experience?)  So in the case of copying someone else's persona: yeah you can imagine it, but no the rules don't cover it as being possible.  Take a purely magic analogue as an example: Spells are "real" in the Sixth World.  So what if you imagine a spell that you can cast on your gun, so that while that spell is sustained the gun never runs out of ammo!  Neat idea, certainly within the realm of imagination, but unfortunately simply not possible under the rules of magic.  Why, in universe, can't that happen?  Non sequitur.  It doesn't matter.  Rules don't allow for magic doing certain things, and that specific effect is something that's not said to be possible.

Edit:
4) Oh, yeah.  The game is called Shadowrun.  You're supposed to be a Shadowrunner doing shadowruns.  If shadowruns are impossible, the game all falls apart.  Ergo, SINs have to be falsifiable, whereas there's not necessarily any reason Personas have to be.
« Last Edit: <05-10-21/1336:36> by Stainless Steel Devil Rat »
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, youíre fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Hanzo

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« Reply #13 on: <05-11-21/0330:46> »
I like the idea of SINless mode)) When a runner goes into an Ares Secret Lab it is really usefull to stop broadcasting ANY SIN you have. That at least prevents Ares from searching you by your real/fake name))

But SINless mode in Matrix is limited for shopping. You can't buy anything. Because you need a SIN to transfer funds from this SIN's bank account to the bank account of a shop. So you need to broadcast any SIN in order to get services from any shop in the Matrix.

CanRay

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« Reply #14 on: <05-11-21/1205:10> »
Unless you're shopping on the black market and using a black bank account run by one of the Organized Crime Groups.

My crew used to use "Da Foist Bank-a-Tony" awhile back.
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