[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

Deckers still don't get Complex Forms or Sprites.

And I'm betting Technomancers still don't use agent programs.

What I mean is, if the matrix rules are as streamlined as I saw in the SCN demo, then aside from the agent/sprite split, what will define a Techno from a Decker in a meaningful way?

I don't mean to be snarky, but I wonder are you familiar with how they're different in 5e?

TMs: In addition to matrix actions and a free (in nuyen) Living Persona, they get "spells" and "spirits" and "initiation".  They're called Complex Forms, Sprites, and Submersion, but they mirror the magic mechanics.

Deckers: No "matrix magic", but they do get to run cheap programs and easily reconfigure their programs and ASDF array.  These are both because they use cyberdecks rather than a free Living Persona.

[Jack_Spade]

Technomancer have one main story purpose: It allows you to have an enemy decker without having to worry about your players getting their hands on a deck that's more worth than the whole run...

There's less convoluted ways to handle that...just saying....

"I thought you said this was a biker gang! These dudes are cyclists!!"

"Can't have the players cashing in on a whole truckload of motorcycles! Are you crazy?!"


-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist

Consider that even the cheapest deck in core is as expensive as four roadhogs, imminently more portable and easier to transfer ownership (Because the owner is dead or just lost access to the very device he'd use to track down his gear)

For a street level campaign a techno riding with a gang is much easier to handle and explain than a decker whose equipment is more worth than the combined rest of the gangs operation.

[Hobbes]

Deckers still don't get Complex Forms or Sprites.

And I'm betting Technomancers still don't use agent programs.

What I mean is, if the matrix rules are as streamlined as I saw in the SCN demo, then aside from the agent/sprite split, what will define a Techno from a Decker in a meaningful way?

I don't mean to be snarky, but I wonder are you familiar with how they're different in 5e?

TMs: In addition to matrix actions and a free (in nuyen) Living Persona, they get "spells" and "spirits" and "initiation".  They're called Complex Forms, Sprites, and Submersion, but they mirror the magic mechanics.

Deckers: No "matrix magic", but they do get to run cheap programs and easily reconfigure their programs and ASDF array.  These are both because they use cyberdecks rather than a free Living Persona.

Not to be snarky but in 5th Edition there is very little a Technomancer can do that a Decker can't (Matrix-wise).  Different ways to get there, but there isn't a difference in the outcome.  A Device is Controlled or Bricked.  An NPC takes Dump Shock or gets fooled.  A Decker uses a combination of Matrix Actions to accomplish the task, a TM may have a Resonance based short cut or use the exact same Matrix Actions. 

Off the top of my head Diagnostics power, Resonance Veil Complex Form aren't easily replicated by Matrix Actions, but can be done using other skills.  (Leadership, Con, Impersonation, ect...) 

IMO it would be nice if TMs had more toys like Diagnostics so you'd have a meaningful mechanical difference in capabilities.  As far as most Runner teams are concerned a Hacker is a Hacker.  TM or Decker makes no real difference.  YMMV of course. 

[BeCareful]

True, but those outcomes are basic things that any hacker would be expected to do, regardless of method. I also liked Diagnostics & Resonance Veil, and hoped that there would be more stuff like that.
Sort of why Cyberadepts appeal to me more than Hyperthreading/Giant Sprites: instead of doing it like magic only on the Matrix, they get to do something intuitive with technology that you otherwise couldn't do.

[Michael Chandra]

Both street sams and adepts can kill people but people still want adepts. I like having a different kind of hacker around, the only problems are balance and making the tactic differences big enough.

[Hobbes]

Both street sams and adepts can kill people but people still want adepts. I like having a different kind of hacker around, the only problems are balance and making the tactic differences big enough.

Right but there are enough combat options that even two Adepts could play very differently, narratively and mechanically.  I've seen plenty of TMs at the table just stick to Matrix Actions to get things done.  In fact, that is how most TMs play, they could be a Decker with an implanted Deck the rest of the team wouldn't know. 

I do sincerely hope that TMs turn out to have some meaningful differences from Deckers.

[Marcus]

I'm confused what are we discussing now?

Yes in 5th at street level TM have an advantage or at-least make certain amount of sense,  why? b/c Cash a deeply restricted option in that level of play.

As to 6th I'm confident TM and Decker will be different. I haven't read anything relating to TM and Decker in 6th. But there hasn't been anything I seen in the simplifications that would suggest archetypes have lost any level level uniqueness.

Could i be wrong? Sure. We don't have the CRB, and 5e was huge revival deckers, so them taking some level of hit is probably likely, but 5e was also disaster for TM. I doubt that they would nerf that archetype two editions running. We'll see when the CRB drops.

[Banshee]

here is a link to the final results, thanks for everyone's input ... now let's see what I can do with it

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1p43EYgC1BIXoVyuPqow7C3iOjffW4euJ

[FastJack]

Interesting results. Some things I expected, others I did not.

[Singularity]

Interesting results. Some things I expected, others I did not.

As someone new to Shadowrun and cyberpunk in general, could I ask you to elaborate on that please? Which things were expected? I'm guessing robust character creation, gear selection, and magic options? More importantly which were surprising?

[FastJack]

Interesting:

• 75% of the participants skipped the Experience and Edition questions.
• Rolling large pools of dice and Soak rolls tied for the third of least things liked in Core Mechanics. They also have a pretty high deviation, meaning both are pretty contentious, so lots of disagreements between the participants on the answer.
• Likewise, Technomancers and Spirits were voted low, and their deviation is high as well. (Lots of disagreement that they are important).
• 75% also skipped the Neo-Anarchy and Tribal Resurgence questions, meaning they either didn't care or didn't know about those elements.

Excpected:

• Top mechanics are Flexible CharGen, Detailed Gear, Flexible Magic System, and Special Attributes. These have all been standard in all editions.
• The top Setting/Lore answers are also standard for all editions.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Interesting:

• 75% of the participants skipped the Experience and Edition questions.
• Rolling large pools of dice and Soak rolls tied for the third of least things liked in Core Mechanics. They also have a pretty high deviation, meaning both are pretty contentious, so lots of disagreements between the participants on the answer.
• Likewise, Technomancers and Spirits were voted low, and their deviation is high as well. (Lots of disagreement that they are important).
• 75% also skipped the Neo-Anarchy and Tribal Resurgence questions, meaning they either didn't care or didn't know about those elements.

Excpected:

• Top mechanics are Flexible CharGen, Detailed Gear, Flexible Magic System, and Special Attributes. These have all been standard in all editions.
• The top Setting/Lore answers are also standard for all editions.

The problem with surveys is it’s a yes no system and not a why system?

As an example imo spirits are pretty integral to the setting and should be part of the rules. But for all of 4e and 5e they were ridiculously broken. A lot of people who focus on the broken part might vote no, and that’s not really a spirits bad vote it’s a bad implementation is bad vote.

Or things like large pools. Large pools means different things to different people. I’m from
1e in phase. In 1-3e I’d say most pools were 6ish dice and could be boosted to 12 with a associated pool. 4e/5e 12+ dice was normal. What’s  large to one group might be normal to another. But in a sense it just means bigger than normal pool which most people will say is bad just due to the nature of the terms. But it has no meaning out of context. Are they saying yeah 40 die pools is to much or are they saying d20 for life.

[FastJack]

Interesting:

• 75% of the participants skipped the Experience and Edition questions.
• Rolling large pools of dice and Soak rolls tied for the third of least things liked in Core Mechanics. They also have a pretty high deviation, meaning both are pretty contentious, so lots of disagreements between the participants on the answer.
• Likewise, Technomancers and Spirits were voted low, and their deviation is high as well. (Lots of disagreement that they are important).
• 75% also skipped the Neo-Anarchy and Tribal Resurgence questions, meaning they either didn't care or didn't know about those elements.

Excpected:

• Top mechanics are Flexible CharGen, Detailed Gear, Flexible Magic System, and Special Attributes. These have all been standard in all editions.
• The top Setting/Lore answers are also standard for all editions.

The problem with surveys is it’s a yes no system and not a why system?

As an example imo spirits are pretty integral to the setting and should be part of the rules. But for all of 4e and 5e they were ridiculously broken. A lot of people who focus on the broken part might vote no, and that’s not really a spirits bad vote it’s a bad implementation is bad vote.

Or things like large pools. Large pools means different things to different people. I’m from
1e in phase. In 1-3e I’d say most pools were 6ish dice and could be boosted to 12 with a associated pool. 4e/5e 12+ dice was normal. What’s  large to one group might be normal to another. But in a sense it just means bigger than normal pool which most people will say is bad just due to the nature of the terms. But it has no meaning out of context. Are they saying yeah 40 die pools is to much or are they saying d20 for life.

That's where the deviation comes in, that says that there is less of a difference between the count of the lowest and highest votes. When the deviation is higher, that means there's more people that disagree with how you might have answered.

[Banshee]

Interesting:

• 75% of the participants skipped the Experience and Edition questions.
• Rolling large pools of dice and Soak rolls tied for the third of least things liked in Core Mechanics. They also have a pretty high deviation, meaning both are pretty contentious, so lots of disagreements between the participants on the answer.
• Likewise, Technomancers and Spirits were voted low, and their deviation is high as well. (Lots of disagreement that they are important).
• 75% also skipped the Neo-Anarchy and Tribal Resurgence questions, meaning they either didn't care or didn't know about those elements.

Excpected:

• Top mechanics are Flexible CharGen, Detailed Gear, Flexible Magic System, and Special Attributes. These have all been standard in all editions.
• The top Setting/Lore answers are also standard for all editions.

The problem with surveys is it’s a yes no system and not a why system?

As an example imo spirits are pretty integral to the setting and should be part of the rules. But for all of 4e and 5e they were ridiculously broken. A lot of people who focus on the broken part might vote no, and that’s not really a spirits bad vote it’s a bad implementation is bad vote.

Or things like large pools. Large pools means different things to different people. I’m from
1e in phase. In 1-3e I’d say most pools were 6ish dice and could be boosted to 12 with a associated pool. 4e/5e 12+ dice was normal. What’s  large to one group might be normal to another. But in a sense it just means bigger than normal pool which most people will say is bad just due to the nature of the terms. But it has no meaning out of context. Are they saying yeah 40 die pools is to much or are they saying d20 for life.

That's where the deviation comes in, that says that there is less of a difference between the count of the lowest and highest votes. When the deviation is higher, that means there's more people that disagree with how you might have answered.

exactly, and that's why I included deviation ... the lower the deviation the more consensus but also why I included a comment section for people who felt strongly about something or wanted to talk about something that was not asked.

[Wakshaani]

I don't think I even saw a few of those questions when I took it. Ack.

Sorry if I bent the survey!