NEWS

[6e] Troll equipment costs: +10% on everything

  • 42 Replies
  • 6961 Views

penllawen

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 804
  • Let's go. In and out. Twenty minute milk run.
« on: <02-07-20/0932:11> »
pg 247 CRB 6e

Quote
It’s harder for trolls, and they experience a ten percent markup on everything. Even AR setting have to be adjusted to fit trolls’ thick fingers, and every piece of gear needs some kind of adjustment for their size, strength, and dermal deposits.
(Emphasis mine)

That makes no sense to me at all. Does anyone else think this makes sense?

A R1 cyberdeck, modified for a troll, costs 2500 nuyen more. OK, I can maybe see that; make it a bit bigger, ruggedise the case. Especially as cyberdecks are things you wear now, maybe. Although what if it's an implanted cyberdeck with just an AR interface? Why does it cost money to make an AR interface larger? And also, by and large, don't electronics get cheaper when you make them bigger? It's usually miniaturisation that's expensive, not going the other way. If cyberdecks got cheaper when you made them smaller, every decker would have one the size of wedding ring, and they'd be both less expensive and easier to hide.

But a R6 cyberdeck - that's gonna cost a troll 40k extra. So: what extra troll adaptation happened to the R6 'deck that didn't happen to the R1 'deck? And why and how did that adaption cost four times the cost of a compact car?

Let's talk foci! "The physical form of a focus varies—bracelets, amulets, belts, wands, walking sticks, staves, cups, bottle caps, daggers, hats, hip flasks, pens, and so on and so forth — although most of the time a focus reflects the tradition of its maker." A rating 6 power focus is 108k for a human and 119k for a troll. What has changed about that focus that made it cost 19k more? Why has that change cost 19k, when the same adaptation for a R1 power focus cost only 3k? It does not cost twice the price of a Jackrabbit to make a walking stick or hip flask troll-sized instead of human sized. Does it? Surely the cost of a focus is in the magic power, and surely the magic power isn't any different in a focus for a troll.

I can go on! Fake SINs... do fake SINs cost 10% more? Why? How about a gun licence to put on that SIN? 

How about programs for that cyberdeck? Do they need troll adaptation too? How about a knowsoft? Troll adaptation on those is 250 nuyen - what changes about the knowsoft for that? Do spell formulae get more expensive for trolls? How about reagents? Are troll grenades more expensive? Does that mean they're bigger? If they're bigger, why don't they do more damage? Do trolls pay more for RFID tags? 

What about a slap patch? Do trolls pay more for slap patches? Does that mean they have a bigger dose or something? So what happens if you put a troll slap patch on a human? Or vice versa?

How far down this rabbit hole shall we go? Do bullets cost more for trolls?

"It’s harder for trolls, and they experience a ten percent markup on everything."

...I guess they do.
« Last Edit: <02-07-20/0936:43> by penllawen »

Banshee

  • *
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Ace Runner
  • ***
  • Posts: 1095
« Reply #1 on: <02-07-20/0940:21> »
Yeah thats one of those weird things that have went back and forth over the years. It just doesn't make "realistic" that it cost more for everything but it's better than spending more pages on clarifying what does or doesn't.

Personally in my home games I only apply it to lifestyle cost but I also don't allow anything below low lifestyle.

Robert "Banshee" Volbrecht
Freelancer & FAQ Committee member
Former RPG Lead Agent
Catalyst Demo Team

penllawen

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 804
  • Let's go. In and out. Twenty minute milk run.
« Reply #2 on: <02-07-20/0941:51> »
It just doesn't make "realistic" that it cost more for everything but it's better than spending more pages on clarifying what does or doesn't.
Except the book has already done exactly that, for dwarves, on pg246:

Quote
To account for this, dwarfs pay a ten percent markup on all the fitted gear they purchase. This applies to items like armor and clothes, but not stuff like weapons and commlinks. When in doubt, the gamemaster makes the call of when to apply it.

Personally in my home games I only apply it to lifestyle cost but I also don't allow anything below low lifestyle.
I think 5e's "double your lifestyle cost and forget about the rest" approach was perfectly reasonable, myself.

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

  • *
  • Errata Coordinator
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 4572
« Reply #3 on: <02-07-20/0943:47> »
On this penllawen, I agree with you.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Banshee

  • *
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Ace Runner
  • ***
  • Posts: 1095
« Reply #4 on: <02-07-20/0951:52> »
It just doesn't make "realistic" that it cost more for everything but it's better than spending more pages on clarifying what does or doesn't.
Except the book has already done exactly that, for dwarves, on pg246:

Quote
To account for this, dwarfs pay a ten percent markup on all the fitted gear they purchase. This applies to items like armor and clothes, but not stuff like weapons and commlinks. When in doubt, the gamemaster makes the call of when to apply it.

Personally in my home games I only apply it to lifestyle cost but I also don't allow anything below low lifestyle.
I think 5e's "double your lifestyle cost and forget about the rest" approach was perfectly reasonable, myself.

Honestly I don't see that as much of a clarification for dwarves even ... it just establishes some rough guidelines and then says GM discretion. Apply the same to Trolls.

EDIT: but yeah I agree lifestyle cost increases is more elegant and effective
Robert "Banshee" Volbrecht
Freelancer & FAQ Committee member
Former RPG Lead Agent
Catalyst Demo Team

penllawen

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 804
  • Let's go. In and out. Twenty minute milk run.
« Reply #5 on: <02-07-20/0958:25> »
Honestly I don't see that as much of a clarification for dwarves even ... it just establishes some rough guidelines and then says GM discretion. Apply the same to Trolls.
I think it's enough to go on for dwarves, as even a novice GM I think I'd feel comfortable with that much guidance. And absolutely, applying something similar to trolls seems like a very reasonable answer. Which is why this stuck out for me (I only just noticed it) - because the book goes out of its way to not apply this to trolls, but explicitly says "everything." Which quite quickly breaks down once you start considering gear beyond guns and armour.

Weird little decision, that.

Michael Chandra

  • *
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Prime Runner
  • ***
  • Posts: 9920
  • Question-slicing ninja
« Reply #6 on: <02-07-20/1137:08> »
Yeah thats one of those weird things that have went back and forth over the years. It just doesn't make "realistic" that it cost more for everything but it's better than spending more pages on clarifying what does or doesn't.

Personally in my home games I only apply it to lifestyle cost but I also don't allow anything below low lifestyle.
'If it involves a handle and you have to be able to use your fingers to control it, or fit your body into it, I'll apply the 10%' is how I do it. So most relevant commlinks, weapons and armor, but not ware, cars or credsticks. Lifestyle increase is simpler though.
How am I not part of the forum?? O_O I am both active and angry!

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

  • *
  • Errata Coordinator
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 4572
« Reply #7 on: <02-07-20/1156:17> »
Yeah thats one of those weird things that have went back and forth over the years. It just doesn't make "realistic" that it cost more for everything but it's better than spending more pages on clarifying what does or doesn't.

Personally in my home games I only apply it to lifestyle cost but I also don't allow anything below low lifestyle.
'If it involves a handle and you have to be able to use your fingers to control it, or fit your body into it, I'll apply the 10%' is how I do it. So most relevant commlinks, weapons and armor, but not ware, cars or credsticks. Lifestyle increase is simpler though.

Yeah.  Lots of things don't make sense that they need to be ruggedized for "troll use".  Does it matter for a drone if it's owned by a troll or a human? The owner doesn't sit in it. Doesn't need handles for it (that's the RCC).  And there's the world of non-physical possessions like SINs, Licences, Programs/Autosofts, etc.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Xenon

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 6467
« Reply #8 on: <02-07-20/1321:55> »
penllawen,
Why do I get the feeling that you are trying to make this into something that is about 6th edition ;-)


Trolls paying more have been in Shadowrun since... basically forever.

In 3rd edition the drawback was 25% higher cost on all items that had to be customized. Driving a car that was not customized for trolls, would for example add +3 modifier to all driving tests.


In 6th edition trolls are mechanically stronger than other metatypes.

If it helps you can simply look at this as a balancing factor.
Without it there is, for example, very few mechanical reasons to ever play an Orc over a Troll.

Lormyr

  • *
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 820
« Reply #9 on: <02-08-20/0858:30> »
Without it there is, for example, very few mechanical reasons to ever play an Orc over a Troll.

In fairness I would argue that is still the case even with increased cost mechanic. Orcs are just strictly less good trolls, mechanically speaking. The only time I can see one being of value is if your build calls for higher than human body rating without sacrificing a single point of agility for hitting.
"TL:DR 6e's reduction of meaningful choices is akin to forcing everyone to wear training wheels. Now it's just becomes a bunch of toddlers riding around on tricycles they can't fall off of." - Adzling

Ixal

  • *
  • Chummer
  • **
  • Posts: 148
« Reply #10 on: <02-08-20/0915:13> »
Apply it to everything the troll has to physically use or consume.
Weapons, clothing, drugs, cars, etc.
Comlinks are a border case. You can use them physically but most don't so I would ignore it.

Cyberware, depends. A troll getting a cyberarm certainly costs more. A Math processor not.

Plan_B

  • *
  • Newb
  • *
  • Posts: 43
« Reply #11 on: <02-08-20/1118:30> »
Mechanics and balance aside, it’s thematic. It’s the “troll tax.” Orks are the only other (core) metatype that really experiences the Sixth World the way trolls do. That is to say, the way oppressed minorities experience our world but turned up a notch or two.


It comes down to this: Humans are still the most common species out there. By and large, trogs (be they troll or ork) scare most humans. Yes, human bigotry is rampant in the Sixth World (just look at all the racist epithets that exist for non-human metatypes). The “troll tax” is part of the world. That it was dropped for orks was a thing I disagreed with (and in my games, there’s a 5% increased cost for being an ork). The increased cost isn’t just reflective of human bigotry in direct commerce either. It reflects that goods are just costlier to get in trog neighborhoods because of systemic abuses that trogs face.


And before you think I’m making it harder for my trog players for no reason, you should know I only play trogs. Never, ever, for any reason would I play some dandelion eating knife-ear!
When the "milk run" goes sour, it's time for Plan B!

Aria

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 2249
« Reply #12 on: <02-08-20/1120:08> »
Just chalk it up to general racism! Ok, so that link may not have cost more but the car did, and the endless police bribes (walking while tusked) just to get across town, voila, it balances out to a +10% to everything...

Lol, Plan-B said it better  ::)
Excel Cha Generators <<CG5.26>> & <CG6.xx> v36

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

  • *
  • Errata Coordinator
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 4572
« Reply #13 on: <02-08-20/1157:36> »
An increased cost is thematic, and if it's not over the top it's not even a game balance problem.

Once you have to start paying more for EVERYTHING, Troll deckers/riggers/sammies start to have a real balance problem vs non troll characters.  And vs troll magicians, or other archetypes that are not nuyen-dependent.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Xenon

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 6467
« Reply #14 on: <02-08-20/1343:02> »
10% is not over the top.

I am with Lormyr on this one.
Even with the troll tax, trolls are still almost always mechanically better than both orcs and humans.