[skalchemist]

Is there a rule that says whether "natural" thermographic vision (or I guess other sensory qualities) works through electronic imaging (or other sensory) devices?  Like my dwarf has vision magnification on his goggles, does his innate thermographic vision work through that? 

My sense is that it has to otherwise that really really sucks.  But I though I would ask. 

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

I don't think anything explicitly addresses it.  However, the example of spells requiring natural vision and natural vision working through explicitly optical devices sets the precedent that natural (or magically gained) thermographic vision should probably also work through explicitly optical devices and not through electronic imaging devices.

Goggles don't explicitly come as an optical option (contrasted by binoculars, which do).  It's probably not much of a stretch to get your GM to agree that your given set of goggles are optical devices rather than putting a digital display in front of your eyeballs.

[skalchemist]

I don't think anything explicitly addresses it.  However, the example of spells requiring natural vision and natural vision working through explicitly optical devices sets the precedent that natural (or magically gained) thermographic vision should probably also work through explicitly optical devices and not through electronic imaging devices.

Goggles don't explicitly come as an optical option (contrasted by binoculars, which do).  It's probably not much of a stretch to get your GM to agree that your given set of goggles are optical devices rather than putting a digital display in front of your eyeballs.

Ugh, I hate everything about that but I fear you might be right, SSDR.  Do you by chance have a page number for the example of optical but not electronic?

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

It's mentioned in the rules for binoculars (pg. 274), although the rule is technically discussing optical tech.  Goggles aren't said to be available in optical format, but it doesn't seem like a stretch to say that yes you can purchase goggles that you can see through.

[skalchemist]

It's mentioned in the rules for binoculars (pg. 274), although the rule is technically discussing optical tech.  Goggles aren't said to be available in optical format, but it doesn't seem like a stretch to say that yes you can purchase goggles that you can see through.

Let me ask a different but related question to you or anyone else reading this...

In your games, can characters with thermographic vision use that power through googles, imaging sights, etc. OR only purely optical things OR nothing?  In other words, in your game, when would my dwarf need to buy thermographic on his devices versus when would he be ok with his innate capability?

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

Well, not being a physics major, my assumption is that EM energy coming in the IR wavelengths works the same way as ER in the "visible light" wavelengths when they come through lenses.  In other words, if you're looking at actual light coming from the physical object, even if that light is manipulated, then yes you can still see thermo just like you can still see red or blue even when the light is being warped.

On the other hand, if what you're looking at is a display screen that is rendering an image gathered by an electronic sensor, then it should be obvious that no, your natural senses are not in play.  You can't see the IR signature of someone on on a CCTV image being shown in the security station, right?  Exact same principle when you look through an electronic device that simply happens to be held close to your eye.

OTOH, just because binoculars say they come in vislight-blocking models AND vislight-compatible models and no other optical devices do, it doesn't mean that only binoculars are available in optical/lensed models.  It makes perfect sense to me to assume that since goggles don't say they come in both, then the version they "should" come in is optical.  If we presume that the goggles are bricked or powered off, should they be transparent and still see-through or are they now a blindfold since there's no image being generated?  I assume goggles can be seen through by default, and therefore that includes thermographic vision if you have it.

The sorts of things where your natural senses are not relevant are cases like looking at a sensor feed, being jumped into a drone, and so on.  I would assume that unless the device specifies it is NOT optical in nature, you can see though it naturally.  Note however that many real life and futuristic/cyberpunky vision goggles should not be considered "see through" and are putting a computer generated image in front of your eyes, rather than directing EM energy that's literally coming from the objects you're looking at.


TL;DR: something like this you can either obviously see through, or should presume you can see through:


OTOH something like this, clearly your natural thermo is useless:

[skalchemist]

I totally get what you are saying there, SSDR.  I appreciate the expanation of the logic. 

But my question was what do you actually do in your game? Do you require dwarves to somehow purchase see through googles versus non-see through?  Does their thermographic vision work with vision magnification? Is this something you actually spend time on, or do you just handwave it? 

(or anyone else reading this, of course).

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

I totally get what you are saying there, SSDR.  I appreciate the expanation of the logic. 

But my question was what do you actually do in your game? Do you require dwarves to somehow purchase see through googles versus non-see through?  Does their thermographic vision work with vision magnification? Is this something you actually spend time on, or do you just handwave it? 

(or anyone else reading this, of course).

Since dwarves/trolls have to pay extra for "fitted gear", I presume when they buy any vision devices they sensibly buy stuff that doesn't prevent their natural thermo, so it's essentially moot.  I suppose I'd potentially consider the nature of the goggles if the dwarf steals them from a NPC for use, as an additional penalty on top of the penalty for using un-sized gear.  But honestly it's never come up for me before, and most of the time NPCs don't have any accompanying artwork to make the judgement call, so more than likely I'd just not even worry about it.

Of course, since anyone can now buy thermographic vision in 6we as a quality, I suppose the fitted gear assumption no longer covers the issue.  Good point.  I suppose, for lack of more in depth thought on the topic, I'd presume you choose a model of goggles that are compatible with your natural vision when you buy your own gear.  And just go by the rule of fun in the case of captured gear that you (for some reason) want to use.  Does it serve the needs of fun/the story to say the goggles are like the second picture rather than the first?  If yes, then yes.  If no, then no.

[Michael Chandra]

I would assume optical vision enhancements by default for most people.

[skalchemist]

Michael and SSDR: I think you are both saying that in general you would NOT require any special action on the part of dwarves or trolls or whoever to use their "natural" sensory capabilities through electronic devices in your own games.  You would just assume that they bought versions that worked with those capabilities.  Sorry to be dense, but just confirming my understanding. 

I'm assuming this would be the same for low-light vision. 

Also, crap, dwarves pay an extra 10% for fitted gear!  Need to recalculate my character sheet...

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

Michael and SSDR: I think you are both saying that in general you would NOT require any special action on the part of dwarves or trolls or whoever to use their "natural" sensory capabilities through electronic devices in your own games.  You would just assume that they bought versions that worked with those capabilities.  Sorry to be dense, but just confirming my understanding. 

I'm assuming this would be the same for low-light vision. 

Also, crap, dwarves pay an extra 10% for fitted gear!  Need to recalculate my character sheet...

Yes.  My understanding is:

1) All optical and imaging devices listed (pg. 274) are available in an optical form which permits natural vision enhancements like thermo/low light.

2) Since they're the same price either way, when you buy your own gear it's a sensible assumption that your character bought optical if they want to use their natural vision.

[skalchemist]

Thanks!

[Michael Chandra]

Idem.

[Xenon]

Not sure if this changed, but the difference between an optical device and an imaging device used to be that an optical device does not come with capacity for visual enhancements. That rather than using displays and electronics optical devices use glass, prisms, lenses and fiber optics which bend and transform natural light - which mean you can't get an optical device with thermographic or low light vision, but you can get an optical device with vision magnification.

If you as a magician want to target a line of sight spell which is not an indirect combat spell the only way you get to benefit from thermographic or low light is if you are born with it naturally or if you paid essence for it (either as a modification to your natural retinal or as a visual enhancement to a pair of cyber eyes).

But does an imaging device stop natural light or not?

Here the book is ambiguous and it can be read both ways.

Either you rule that thermographic or low light goggles work like 2020 goggles where you are looking at opaque digital screens and where the only input comes from cameras. In this case a magician can't cast line of sight spells that are not indirect combat spells at all while wearing them (and this is the reason why magicians would use an imaging device in the shape of a monocle or optical devices rather than imaging devices). This would also mean thermographic or low light effects need to be applied in the outer imaging device (can't have thermographic in goggles layered with low light in your contacts).

The other ruling is that imaging devices are transparent and let through natural light and that visual enhancements such as thermographic and low light vision are effects overlaid on the natural image. With this reading magicians can cast spells while wearing thermographic goggles and you also get to layer low light contacts underneath.

Personally I rule it somewhere in between. That optical devices are not opaque and that there are no cameras involved, but they are still electronic devices and such don't let through natural light. That you can't cast spells through them and that you can't layer low light contacts underneath thermographic goggles, but I do rule that you can layer smart link or digital magnification in contacts underneath your goggles that have both thermo and low light.

I don't think there is a clear ruling on this matter by just reading the book. Perhaps there are some official clarification to be found?

[Michael Chandra]

Binoculars come optical and electronical. Optical explicitly is called out as supporting spellcasting. Endoscopes are optical, so are mage sight goggles. Periscopes use mirrors and allow for casting.

Having optical magnification goggles is basically going 'okay so you have a built-in bino possibility', I'd allow that.

As for whether LL/TV enhancements work on Spellcasting, that's rather besides the topic at hand here (which is 'can I use natural TV/LL with vision magnification'). But my answer would be: given how the optical devices explicitly call out being usable for spellcasting, while they have 0 capacity as a result, TV/LL appear to still be pure-electronical. And then I would state that if you're not looking with your natural view, you don't get the lock. Even if you're capable of only seeing someone with TV, whether the TV is an overlay or a replacement is irrelevant: You need the TV to see them, so you can't target them with mana spells.