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[SR4] House Rules

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JustADude

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« Reply #435 on: <06-26-12/1336:46> »
Here's a house rule that I think is needed. In order to discourage implants in Awakened, ruling that the karma cost for increasing Magic would go off of what one's Magic would be without the implants.  As an example, buying a Magic of 5 and taking 2 Essence worth of implants would still require spending 30 karma to get back to Magic 4.

Without going into the discussion on whether or not awakened should get implants:
Isn't this already the case in RAW?
I always figured that an Adept that buys 5 magic at chargen and loses a point of essense to implants, still has a 'Base Magic' of 5, but has a Modified Value of 4 Magic ( Magic 5(4) ).

Nope. It's not a modification that you could remove by getting rid of the 'ware and healing the Essence Hole. The loss of Essence actually burns off one of your points of Magic. It's not 5(4), it's just straight up 4.
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Xzylvador

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« Reply #436 on: <06-26-12/1412:12> »
Here's a house rule that I think is needed. In order to discourage implants in Awakened, ruling that the karma cost for increasing Magic would go off of what one's Magic would be without the implants.  As an example, buying a Magic of 5 and taking 2 Essence worth of implants would still require spending 30 karma to get back to Magic 4.

Without going into the discussion on whether or not awakened should get implants:
Isn't this already the case in RAW?
I always figured that an Adept that buys 5 magic at chargen and loses a point of essense to implants, still has a 'Base Magic' of 5, but has a Modified Value of 4 Magic ( Magic 5(4) ).

Nope. It's not a modification that you could remove by getting rid of the 'ware and healing the Essence Hole. The loss of Essence actually burns off one of your points of Magic. It's not 5(4), it's just straight up 4.
Hmm, always did that wrong then.
Well, the houserule seems to make a lot of sense and fits with all the other rules for increasing Attributes modified by Augmentation.

_Pax_

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« Reply #437 on: <06-26-12/1432:39> »
Well, the houserule seems to make a lot of sense and fits with all the other rules for increasing Attributes modified by Augmentation.
... what rules?

If i have Agility 5 and 2 levels of Muscle Toner, giving me a final Agility 5 (7) ... raising that by one point to 6 (8) costs the same as an unaugmented Agility 5 being raised to Agility 6.

Xzylvador

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« Reply #438 on: <06-26-12/1646:25> »
Yes, you look at the base attribute without its altered value from the implant: You spend 5x6, not 5x(8).
I thought it was the same for magic: to raise 5(3) --two magic lost to implant essense loss--, you pay to raise the 5 to 6, not to raise (3) to (4).
But apparently that's not RAW, but a houserule.

JustADude

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« Reply #439 on: <06-26-12/1655:09> »
Yes, you look at the base attribute without its altered value from the implant: You spend 5x6, not 5x( 8 ).
I thought it was the same for magic: to raise 5(3) --two magic lost to implant essense loss--, you pay to raise the 5 to 6, not to raise (3) to (4).
But apparently that's not RAW, but a houserule.

Except, again, it's not 5(3), it's just 3.

If you have Muscle Toner 4 for Agility 3(7) and rip the muscle toner out, you go instantly back to Agility 3, that's why you pay for 3 -> 4, not 7 -> 8.

However, if you were an Adept with Magic 6 before you got 2 points of Bioware in, dropping you to 4.00 Essence and Magic 4, then you decide to remove the Bioware and paid 475000¥ for 20 months of Revitalization therapy to close the Essence Hole and bring you back up to 6.00 Essence, you remain at Magic 4 unless you buy it back up with Karma. That's why buying it back up costs you 4 -> 5, not 6 -> 7

The same exact situation applies to getting hit by the Energy Drain power and losing Essence or Magic, or essence lost to Burnout levels of Addiction, HMMVV, and anything else that drops your Essence total. The points are gone for good. Period. End of story. No returns, no exchanges, no appeals.
« Last Edit: <06-26-12/1707:23> by JustADude »
“What is right is not always popular and what is popular is not always right.”
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"Being average just means that half of everyone you meet is better than you."
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Xzylvador

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« Reply #440 on: <06-26-12/1808:54> »
Am I actually being smitten for something I admitted from the start I misunderstood and got wrong in the past?
Seriously, that's pretty sad.
I asked for a clarification of something I misunderstood and am grateful that it was explained to me...
Why are you even trying to argue about this? I never claimed that what you say isn't so.
But this is the House Rules thread, right? I mean, I don't think I need to ask permission to mention that I like a houserule someone else posted here...
« Last Edit: <06-26-12/1811:53> by Xzylvador »

_Pax_

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« Reply #441 on: <06-26-12/1811:45> »
If you're getting Smites, it's not from me.

JustADude

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« Reply #442 on: <06-26-12/1924:38> »
If you're getting Smites, it's not from me.

Nor me. I may be grumpy, but I'm not gonna smite someone for (what I perceived as) a persisting misunderstanding.

That said, I was under the incorrect impression that you, Xzylvador, still thought RAW was "5(3)", which is what I was trying to correct. Sorry about that.
“What is right is not always popular and what is popular is not always right.”
― Albert Einstein

"Being average just means that half of everyone you meet is better than you."
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thinklibertarian

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« Reply #443 on: <07-03-12/1610:56> »
I use these two house rules.  I'm curious what you think of them.

Note that I only have the core rulebook, so these are based on just that book.

* On page 161, under Armor and Encumbrance, ignore the first line “If a character is wearing more than one piece of armor at a time, only the highest value (for either Ballistic or Impact) applies.”  Instead, you can stack armor, up to a maximum of Body X 2, counting the higher of the Ballistic or Impact rating against that limit.

I’ve categorized the armors into three categories: Inner, Middle, and Outer Layers.  You can only stack armors from two different layers.

   Inner Layers: Actioneer Business Clothes, Armor Clothing, Armor Vest
   Middle Layers: Armor Jacket, Leather Jacket, Urban Explorer Jumpsuit
   Outer Layers: Camouflage Suit, Chameleon Suit, Full Body Armor, Leather Duster, Lined Coat, all Helmets, all Shields

   A Leather Duster is a full length leather coat.  It has B2/I2, Avail -, and costs 400¥.

   Clothing, since it’s B0/I0, can be any layer you want, and stacks with everything (including itself). The Feedback Clothing upgrade can only be applied to the Inner Layer, and the Shock Frills armor modification to the Outer Layer.  Armor modification ratings do not stack, use the highest rating per mod.

   For example: My character has Body 4, so I can stack a maximum of 8 armor (Ballistic or Impact).  I choose an Urban Explorer Jumpsuit (B6/I6), over which I wear a Leather Duster (B2/I2) for a total of B8/I8.  I suffer no encumbrance penalty.

   During a run with my Body 4 hero, I am captured and stripped of my armor.  When I break out, I acquire Armor Clothing (B4/I0), and an Armored Jacket (B8/I6).  That would normally be B12/I6, but it only counts as B8/I6. I suffer encumbrance penalties as if the rating was still 12.  I exceed my (Body X 2) by 4 points, so I get a -2 encumbrance penalty to Agility and Reaction (and derived stats like Initiative).

* For the techies out there, I made this change: You can run a number of programs concurrently equal to your System rating.  For every two programs (or fraction thereof) running over System capacity, Response is reduced by 1, to a minimum of 1. For example: if you have System 4/Response 4, running up to 4 programs is no problem, running 5 or 6 drops response to 3, 7 or 8 = Response 2, 9 or 10 = Response 1.

Why? 
The armor stacking is because it's hard to be a hero out there, and since I don't allow the form fitting armor or PPP system, I thought it would help. 
As for the System/Response rule, it gives a slight advantage to the hacker, and I think the math is easier.

Thanks
« Last Edit: <07-03-12/2155:44> by thinklibertarian »

_Pax_

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« Reply #444 on: <07-03-12/1828:42> »
I use these two house rules.  I'm curious what you think of them.

Note that I only have the core rulebook, so these are based on just that book.

* On page 161, under Armor and Encumbrance, ignore the first line “If a character is wearing more than one piece of armor at a time, only the highest value (for either Ballistic or Impact) applies.”  Instead, you can stack armor, up to a maximum of Body X 2, counting the higher of the Ballistic or Impact rating against that limit.
..... oooooooh, that is raising some "open to abuse" orange flags for me, in such a big way.  Mainly by super-high-body Orks and Trolls.

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I’ve categorized the armors into three categories: Inner, Middle, and Outer Layers.  You can only stack armors from two different layers.

   Inner Layers: Actioneer Business Clothes, Armor Clothing, Armor Vest
   Middle Layers: Armor Jacket, Leather Jacket, Urban Explorer Jumpsuit
   Outer Layers: Camouflage Suit, Chameleon Suit, Full Body Armor, Leather Duster, Lined Coat, all Helmets, all Shields

Where would you put the +2/+1 "Ballistic Mask" (a la Army of Two) ...?  Can it be combined with a Helmet?  (after all, not all helmets include faceplates/masks ...).

Where would you put Chain Mail (2/7, generally presented as a shirt / "hauberk") ...?

How about Padded Leather (2/5) ...?

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   For example: My character has Body 4, so I can stack a maximum of 10 armor (Ballistic or Impact).
  Shouldn't that be a maximum of 8?

thinklibertarian

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« Reply #445 on: <07-03-12/2227:44> »
I've updated the original post  to say 8 instead of 10.  Thanks for pointing that out.

As for the abuse by high-body orks and trolls, I'm not too worried.  New characters can't buy full body armor (availability 14R).  The most they could get, AFAICT, is an Urban Explorer Jumpsuit (6/6) over an Armor Jacket (8/6), totaling 14/12.   Assuming a full Body 10 Troll, she would roll 24 dice to soak ballistic damage and would average 8 hits, which negates most small arms fire.  The fact that the shot would have to do over 14 points of damage to do physical harm instead of stun is ok too, since the stun track is usually a faster way to take out a high-body character.

Other tactics could include taking a called shot to hit the leg (no Armor Jacket), or have a mage use Mana combat spells like Stunball, or use an AK-97 (6 DV) to do a full burst (+9 DV) to do a base 15 + net hits damage.

As for the armor types you mention, they are not in the core rulebook, so I have not thought of them.  I only have the core book.  But, off the top of my head, the ballistic mask sounds like a helmet accessory, so it would be Outer Layer, and chainmail and padded leather are historically worn over padded clothing, so I would classify them as Middle Layer.

Thanks for the comments.
« Last Edit: <07-03-12/2233:18> by thinklibertarian »

_Pax_

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« Reply #446 on: <07-03-12/2252:54> »
As for the abuse by high-body orks and trolls, I'm not too worried.  New characters can't buy full body armor (availability 14R).  The most they could get, AFAICT, is an Urban Explorer Jumpsuit (6/6) over an Armor Jacket (8/6), totaling 14/12.
  Perhaps not with the sources you've got to hand.

  But just off the top of my head?  Armor Jacket with Gel Packs (9/7) ... and over that, Riot control Armor with gel packs (7/10).  That's 16/17 right there.  Add a Riot Control Helmet (+1/+2) and a Riot shield (+6/+2), and you're looking at 23/21 armor.

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   Assuming a full Body 10 Troll,
  Exceptional Attribute: Body;  Metagenic Improvement (Body); Genetic Optimisation (Body); Suprathyroid Gland.  That's a Body of 14, enough to wear that 23/21 armor comfortably.

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[...] she would roll 24 dice to soak ballistic damage [...]
  14 Body, and 24/21 worn armor ... +1/+1 from trollish Dermal Deposits, +3/+3 from Orthoskin 3.  Let's add in Ceramic Bone Lacing, for +2 body and +0/+2 armor.

  Net result?  44 dice with Ballistic armor, 43 dice with Impact.

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Other tactics could include taking a called shot to hit the leg (no Armor Jacket), [...]
  Even in your less-twinked example?  That'd be -8 to the attacker's die pool (to bypass the single piece).  The attacker takes a straight -1 penalty per point of armor bypassed.  Shadowrun, remember, is a very abstracted system; it doesn't get into the nitty-gritty of precise hit-versus-armor-locations.

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As for the armor types you mention, they are not in the core rulebook, so I have not thought of them.
  I hadn't thought you did.  That's why I brought them up.  It's always best to have your house rules set up so that they can accommodate existing books, even if you don't have them.

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But, off the top of my head, the ballistic mask sounds like a helmet accessory, so it would be Outer Layer, [...]
  It's a helmet alternative, actually - but it's nature is such that it can conceivable be worn in addition to a helmet.  RAW, that'd mean the character got +2/+2 armor, for 3/3 encumbrance.

^_^

Quote
Thanks for the comments.
Not a problem.  I do think your houserule is trying to do what shouldn't be done, though (allow for vastly-inflated armor ratings).

thinklibertarian

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« Reply #447 on: <07-04-12/2041:38> »
I re-read the Called Shot section.  I must have been mixing up my game systems again.  I thought Shadowrun had a set modifier to hit a certain body part.  (I blame GURPS.)  Still, -8 to bypass just the Armor Jacket is easier to swallow than -14 to bypass all of the armor.  I think my rules make it a more viable tactic.

"It's always best to have your house rules set up so that they can accommodate existing books, even if you don't have them."

I'm not sure that's possible, but I take your point.  If I do allow the other books, then the armor house rule will have to change or go back to the book's version.  But I will save that can-of-worms for later.

That's why I submitted these rules for commentary: I learn something with each reply.

Thanks

Glorthoron

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« Reply #448 on: <07-05-12/2017:06> »
"It's always best to have your house rules set up so that they can accommodate existing books, even if you don't have them."

I'm not sure that's possible, but I take your point. 

I'm pretty sure it's not. 

Shame on Pax for being silly.  Not all GMs know all the rules in all of the existing books without reading them  :P
"It's not enough to complain.  You have to want to be part of the solution."

_Pax_

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« Reply #449 on: <07-05-12/2212:01> »
Shame on Pax for being silly.  Not all GMs know all the rules in all of the existing books without reading them  :P
.... which is why we come here to discuss the rules, isn't it?