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[SR4] House Rules

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Blue_Lion

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« Reply #390 on: <05-04-12/1926:50> »
Not really irl or by the rules. Sure using two hands is going to (irl) improve your stability and aim, but it's perfectly possible to fire them one handed relatively well if you're trained to. They are no different than pistols in this regard. 90% of weapons trainers are going to train you to shoot all but the tiniest pistols using a two handed grip, but they can be fired one handed with a slight reduction in stability, and therefore accuracy.

3E wasn't really better per say. It had every weapon type as a skill pretty much (Pistols, SMGs, Rifles, Assault Rifles and Shotguns. Heavy Weapons covered MGs and Assault cannons while Launch Weapons covered launcher, but they were Strength and Intelligence based respectively.) Where it had a definite advantage in realism was that you could "default" to skills rather than straight up attribute. The way SR4A changed the system (set TN), makes it weird to try and emulate defaulting to similar skills though.
By your logic then full on assault rifles and sporting rifles are 1 handed weapons in real life some people do shoot them one handed. But for practicle uses they require 2 hands.

_Pax_

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« Reply #391 on: <05-04-12/1932:36> »
Yes, practically speaking an SMG is usually a small, two-handed weapon with a barrel length between that of rifles and pistols, typically fired from the shoulder.

Crash_00

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« Reply #392 on: <05-04-12/2101:58> »
Quote
By your logic then full on assault rifles and sporting rifles are 1 handed weapons in real life some people do shoot them one handed. But for practicle uses they require 2 hands.

Seriously, do you even read the books? There is an entire passage on this in Arsenal. Yes, I've seen people shoot up to MGs in real life. Not well, but I've seen it. SMGs and Pistols are much easier to shoot one handed (common sense here).

The rules of the game have this to say though:
Quote
Large firearms (anything rifle-sized and larger) are typically
used with two hands. A character wielding a large firearm with only
one hand will suffer a –2 dice pool modifier to ranged attacks (–1
for trolls).

SMGs are not considered two handed, rifles and larger are. End of argument right there.

Mirikon

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« Reply #393 on: <05-04-12/2257:25> »
Actually, many SMGs are easily used in one hand. An Uzi comes to mind immediately, as does the MAC-10.
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JustADude

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« Reply #394 on: <05-05-12/0114:07> »
Actually, many SMGs are easily used in one hand. An Uzi comes to mind immediately, as does the MAC-10.

And here's a real life example, just in case anyone doubts: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9VMoLapNA8
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_Pax_

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« Reply #395 on: <05-05-12/0151:16> »
Actually, many SMGs are easily used in one hand. An Uzi comes to mind immediately, as does the MAC-10.

And here's a real life example, just in case anyone doubts: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9VMoLapNA8
.... and just watching that thing waggle around?  I doubt he could hit the broad side of a car at over twenty feet, with more than one round in five.

JustADude

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« Reply #396 on: <05-05-12/0747:31> »
Actually, many SMGs are easily used in one hand. An Uzi comes to mind immediately, as does the MAC-10.

And here's a real life example, just in case anyone doubts: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9VMoLapNA8
.... and just watching that thing waggle around?  I doubt he could hit the broad side of a car at over twenty feet, with more than one round in five.

Good thing he's firing off 5-6 rounds a pop, then, isn't it? When you throw enough lead down range you don't have to be nearly as accurate, hence why "wide burst" exista.
« Last Edit: <05-05-12/0749:10> by JustADude »
“What is right is not always popular and what is popular is not always right.”
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"Being average just means that half of everyone you meet is better than you."
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Crash_00

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« Reply #397 on: <05-05-12/0906:38> »
Also keep in mind that it isn't modded with the standard underbarrel weight, gas vent III, personalized grip and sling that most runners would use to get 6 RC.

_Pax_

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« Reply #398 on: <05-05-12/1034:06> »
To get RC from the sling, you're pretty much bringing your second hand into the equation.  You don't get the RC just because it's hanging there, after all.

Crash_00

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« Reply #399 on: <05-05-12/1050:13> »
Using a sling to absorb recoil on the shot involves forcing the gun against the sling until it's tight. You can achieve this one handed just as easily two handed. It's pretty much the opposite of using a stock, where you draw the weapon back toward you. Yes, irl two handed is more accurate, but SR makes no distinction between one handed or two handed for one handed weapons and a minimal difference for two handed weapons one handed (-2 is not even a full hit).

JustADude

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« Reply #400 on: <05-06-12/0108:18> »
Using a sling to absorb recoil on the shot involves forcing the gun against the sling until it's tight. You can achieve this one handed just as easily two handed. It's pretty much the opposite of using a stock, where you draw the weapon back toward you. Yes, irl two handed is more accurate, but SR makes no distinction between one handed or two handed for one handed weapons and a minimal difference for two handed weapons one handed (-2 is not even a full hit).

The issue could easily be solved (for any those that think it needs to be "solved") by giving out +2 RC* for using both hands on a one-handed weapon... pretty much exactly inverting the penalty for one-handing a two-handed weapon.

*Possibly +4 for Trolls, since half (1/2) the penalty would invert to twice (2/1) the bonus.
« Last Edit: <05-06-12/0111:29> by JustADude »
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Glorthoron

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« Reply #401 on: <05-06-12/1825:23> »
Quote
Large firearms (anything rifle-sized and larger) are typically
used with two hands. A character wielding a large firearm with only
one hand will suffer a –2 dice pool modifier to ranged attacks (–1
for trolls).

SMGs are not considered two handed, rifles and larger are. End of argument right there.


That being said, does it make sense that an SMG used with both hands provides 1 point of recoil?  Not sure if it shows up in any of the companion books, though.
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Blue_Lion

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« Reply #402 on: <05-07-12/0042:12> »
Seriously, do you even read the books? There is an entire passage on this in Arsenal. Yes, I've seen people shoot up to MGs in real life. Not well, but I've seen it. SMGs and Pistols are much easier to shoot one handed (common sense here).
Actualy controling a light automatic weapon is harder less wgt to counter the recoil. You whould think smaller is easer to control but with automatics it is the other way around. In fact proper postion on the M240B is a one handed grip the other hand is used as a spacer when shooting prone suported, and instead of pulling it into you lean into it hard to bind the bipod. Now shooting standing changes the grip a bit making it 2 handed, but you loose allot of accuracy with it that way. (not something i read in a book but learned with first hand expearnce.)

And yes i read the books but i dont mermorize every thing in them, so the rules say X but they also count carbines witch are austalt rifles as submachine guns. But if the rules say X go with X it does not make it right.

_Pax_

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« Reply #403 on: <05-07-12/0303:39> »
Using a sling to absorb recoil on the shot involves forcing the gun against the sling until it's tight. You can achieve this one handed just as easily two handed. It's pretty much the opposite of using a stock, where you draw the weapon back toward you. Yes, irl two handed is more accurate, but SR makes no distinction between one handed or two handed for one handed weapons and a minimal difference for two handed weapons one handed (-2 is not even a full hit).

You g ahead, read books and watch Internet Tough Guy videos on youtube all you like.  Some of us have actual first-hand experience with firing weapons like SMGs, LMG, assault rifles, and so on.  When I said "most SMGs are two handed weapons", that's because the proper use of most SMG models has both your hands on the weapon.  (As opposed to two-handed pistol stances, which typically have one hand on the weapon, and the other hand on the first hand ...  8) )

Crash_00

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« Reply #404 on: <05-07-12/0859:49> »
Heavy weight reduces recoil when it's balanced correctly, but when it's not (and using a heavy weapon meant to be brace fired primarily or two handed fired when not able to brace on handed is going to be one of these cases) it just compounds the recoil. If you doubt that, take your rifle and fire off a few shots one handed, then strap a ten pound weight to it and try it again.

Yes, when braced most MGs are don't need two hands supporting them because they are braced. The whole point of the brace is to force the weight of the gun into the brace and let the brace absorb the recoil.

The lines between machine pistols and submachine guns blur as do those between smgs and carbines. Most carbines are just short barreled versions of an assault rifle, but some, especially bullpup models, are only available as carbines and roughly the same size as an smg. It really comes down to the definitions you use. One of the most common distinctions is that most people define SMGs as using pistol ammunition and carbines as using rifle ammunition.

None of this really changes a fact that has been completely ignored here though. All this talk about SMGs being two handed weapons makes an assumption that Pistols and Machine Pistols aren't two handed weapons, but in real life nearly every stance taught involves the use of both hands on them just as much as using both hands on an SMG. OMG what can this mean? Guns are more accurate with two hands...mmkay. Universal standard here, no exceptions.

Of course with all your first hand knowledge you should probably know that. Of course, SR4A is an action movie, and unless I've missed the headlines of a real life Live Action Hero, you probably don't have any first hand knowledge from the shadowrun universe which is what the books discuss. Real Life is ---> that way. Gritty Realistic Combat in an RPG is <--- that way. This is shadowrun, home to campy humor and utterly unrealistic damages since 4th edition. Yes, book knowledge of shadowrun over-rules first hand knowledge of non-SR weapons in SR.