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Michael Chandra

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« Reply #165 on: <05-05-19/0404:55> »
So. New initiative system. More solidity on knowing the turn order, and everyone gets a go (though some people may opt to do 2 Majors if they have at least 3 initiative dice.) Thoughts? Yay/nay?

Me, I like it bringing a bit more stability, though I do hope there's still ways to buff/penalize Initiative Scores, even if they can't cost someone a full pass anymore.
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PiXeL01

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« Reply #166 on: <05-05-19/0440:36> »
Not knowing what characters can do with their actions I cannot honestly tell.
I liked the system of third/fifth because it rewarded street samurais for their investment but also gave all a chance to act before the turn ended at least once.
Right now it feels like they are being nerfed
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Michael Chandra

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« Reply #167 on: <05-05-19/0557:00> »
They mentioned taking cover and movement, so that's 2 Minor Actions I guess. If you have 5 dice, you'd have 6 Minors so that's 1 extra Major, plus being able to move and take cover?
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dezmont

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« Reply #168 on: <05-05-19/0604:36> »
The math of minors doesn't seem to add up in a way that is very rewarding, as before you didn't need 5 dice to get an extra pass. It definitely is a nerf to samurai, but allegedly the power level overall is coming down. It is just we are hearing a LOT of samurai nerfs.

I actually really like the idea of 'more actions rather than more passes' because it forces the samurai to make all their choices at once and take up less overall table time than making decisions every few seconds, but the implementation is very rough. It is likely that initiative boosters are coming down in essence cost and price, but maybe they aren't, and either way it removes a huge fantasy of being a samurai. I think this could have been done better by just giving the samurai an extra major per-dice equivalent, and capping the extra dice equivalent at 2 and making the second rank cost as much as synaptic/wired 3, which would maintain the benefit of 'all at once, please' while keeping the raw offensive advantage of initiative from the PC's perspective intact and perhaps even helping to create more differentiation between off combat PCs like faces going for 1 extra pass and samurai who are investing in 2, to help make up for the loss of soak tanking from the samurai's identity.

The big thing I think about when hearing about 6e is that samurai just... lost their identity. They don't even seem like they are going to be a role anymore because so many iconic aspects of them were stripped down to the bone. This may or may not be true, but unlike many mechanical anaylsises of a product that isn't out yet the fact I am feeling this is way more a red flag than other gut feelings I have about 6e. In games classes/archetypes exist basically as fantasies, mechanical and lore promises the games make to us to entice us to play them because of how cool they are, and 6e feels like samurai aren't promising anything, which means we can already evaluate at least the aspect of the fantasy of being a street samurai as a failure even if they mechanically turn out fine, unless at some point that fantasy of being a super fast and deadly cyborg ala Molly Millions or the GitS crew is replaced by a different one.
« Last Edit: <05-05-19/0611:43> by dezmont »

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #169 on: <05-05-19/0609:14> »
Mrm, I think that for my table this actually is a boost to Street Sams, Mages, Adepts and HotSim Deckers/Riggers. In 5e, most of our fights lasted maybe 2 Passes. Only the heaviest fights lasted more than 1 Combat Turn (such as the fight against a Blood Mage that kept dodging their AoE attacks), so it was extremely rare for them to actually get to use that extra pass. Now they actually get more to do in their turn, rather than theoretically receiving an extra pass. Being able to perform 2 Major actions will be a big buff to them instead.

Giving a massive amount of extra Majors sounds like it'd do more harm than good, myself. It'd be overkill and once again FORCE people to massively invest in Initiative or be worthless and die quickly.

Also, I like the sound of getting extra actions based on your dice rather than your actual roll, because it means that even if you roll poorly, you still get your extra actions. A Street Samurai will be able to perform 2 Majors, while a normal ganger won't. So that still sounds like they're badass, and they still go first in Initiative. Look at it this way: In 5e, you'd score 3 passes instead of 1~2 for the guy with 8+1d6, but even then that extra pass was only useful after a few passes take place first. Now you can actually do more stuff during your turn, which can give you a significant tactical advantage.
« Last Edit: <05-05-19/0616:54> by Michael Chandra »
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dezmont

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« Reply #170 on: <05-05-19/0620:51> »
Most fights I have end in 2 passes unless the mage decides that mandatory naptime is worth gordian knotting the whole thing. It may be because the meta I play in values full defense extremely highly and so players are reducing their own offensive power, but I find it strange that PCs are consistently able to clear a fight in a single pass even though SR is pretty darn good about ensuring PCs can't down more than one enemy a pass. Even vs grunt corpsec it generally will take a team of 5 players in an environment as optimized as the reddit LCs to take down a group of enemies slightly larger than them unless literally everyone is a samurai. "Initiative is king" has been seen as a pretty uncontroversial truism for every edition, so I hope you aren't offended when I say it seems like something is creating an extreme outlier scenario if your group is able to clear fights with one action per-player. Do you not use NPC edge?

Another big advantage to edge in SR5 was stalling: if you had the initiative advantage it meant defensive action played extremely in your favor: Your opponent had to either expose themselves or allow you to get a series of turns without them being able to react. This was especially potent because you also immediately get to act again even after you run out of initiative if you are the highest, meaning the turn rotating gave you two actions in a row, allowing you to do very dangerous things like flank with total impunity or play around with AOEs when no one could Run Like Hell. It is very very VERY good to go fast in SR5. A single pass advantage creates by a 1d6 therefore could translate into a two pass advantage with a back to back bonus, while in SR6 you aren't even able to get one effective extra pass with a single d6. There is a danger if you allow multiple movement actions per pass via minor actions of similarly stacked double turns exploiting the inability to react, but hopefully they aren't allowing that because those would be silly even without bonus majors.

That said, this isn't a PVP game, and one player getting two attacks at once has different effects in a cooperative game either way. That means that we don't actually have to worry about if it is fair to be exposed to high initiative attacks at all, as long as it is rare in the hands of NPCs.

Specifically, because majors are a player's ability to impact a combat offensively, they don't factor in to your 'time to kill' and thus wouldn't affect NPCs attacking you at all. You are dictating how many NPCs you can attack. You won't die any faster or slower at low initiative dice, so as long as the essence buy in is non-trivial, you don't need it. That said, currently in 5e most every non-magical PC makes a point of using Jazz or buying an initiative booster, so even if it were mandatory, that is still the status quo. While obviously I didn't put a ton of thought into it, paying 3/4ths of your essence to attack 3 times in combat isn't actually that attractive unless 'ware overall gets dramatically less useful. There is a reason why even in two turn fight metas you aren't seeing a lot of move by wire PCs, making your turns more impactful is equally as important as more initiative.

I fear the current system will actually make investing in initiative totally worthless, as minor actions as we saw from the lets play are not actually that useful and are not attractive enough to incentive you towards making extreme sacrifices towards getting them, which is why people are wondering if wired reflexes is going to be dropping to a sub-1 essence cost per rating item.
« Last Edit: <05-05-19/0637:22> by dezmont »

AJCarrington

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« Reply #171 on: <05-05-19/0817:19> »
I'm quite interested to see how the action economy plays out. It's seems to be a pretty major shift from "passes" to "actions" which means we'll (at least me) likely need to readjust current perceptions. Of course, not having all the rules in front of us makes things a tad challenging ;)

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #172 on: <05-05-19/1009:23> »
So someone's been summarising their readings of all sources into 1 document: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ZPN1-6xfGD9SV6xD85eaJIWoNq0NcsBdE3CQI8s5rJU/edit#heading=h.h701ncsxs7zi

Interestingly enough, Drain still exists, but Binding is gone. O_O Summoning now lasts 1 Dusk & 1 Dawn, it's resisted by Fx2 but Drain is 1/hit, and you can have a total of M*3 in Force summoned total at any time.
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Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #173 on: <05-05-19/1013:25> »
Mrm, I think that for my table this actually is a boost to Street Sams, Mages, Adepts and HotSim Deckers/Riggers. In 5e, most of our fights lasted maybe 2 Passes. Only the heaviest fights lasted more than 1 Combat Turn (such as the fight against a Blood Mage that kept dodging their AoE attacks), so it was extremely rare for them to actually get to use that extra pass. Now they actually get more to do in their turn, rather than theoretically receiving an extra pass. Being able to perform 2 Major actions will be a big buff to them instead.

Giving a massive amount of extra Majors sounds like it'd do more harm than good, myself. It'd be overkill and once again FORCE people to massively invest in Initiative or be worthless and die quickly.

Also, I like the sound of getting extra actions based on your dice rather than your actual roll, because it means that even if you roll poorly, you still get your extra actions. A Street Samurai will be able to perform 2 Majors, while a normal ganger won't. So that still sounds like they're badass, and they still go first in Initiative. Look at it this way: In 5e, you'd score 3 passes instead of 1~2 for the guy with 8+1d6, but even then that extra pass was only useful after a few passes take place first. Now you can actually do more stuff during your turn, which can give you a significant tactical advantage.

While I like the idea of one pass multiple actions, I'm with dezmont that it seems like a samurai nerf.  Especially since they are continuing the 5e tradition of making a spell the most powerful initiative booster. Unless there is like a wired 10 now at best street sams get 2 majors and one minor, which is pretty terrible for a big investment when compared to 1 major and 2 minors.  If you need to move and get cover the street sam is basically in the sam spot as a unmodified person as a bunch of extraneous minors don't really help. At wired 2 historically the more common option a street sam better hope he doesn't need to draw a weapon, move, get cover or well anything else otherwise he just has 1 major like everyone else.  Great use of 3 essence there. If wired reflexes essence isn't massively dropped and costs more than a ham sandwich its not seeming worth picking up the iconic ability of sams which is enhanced reflexes(actions).

Sure once we get the full rule maybe we will find out street sams have access to ware that makes this work for them, but it is not looking good to me. It can still overall be a fun game, I'm just not sure how shadowrun it will feel without core elements like super enhanced reflexes dude.

Also as a side note in most campaigns i've played in people never felt the need to compete with the Sam in speed, they were fine with their 1 pass in a fight while the street sam went 3+ times.

Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #174 on: <05-05-19/1020:11> »
So someone's been summarising their readings of all sources into 1 document: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ZPN1-6xfGD9SV6xD85eaJIWoNq0NcsBdE3CQI8s5rJU/edit#heading=h.h701ncsxs7zi

Interestingly enough, Drain still exists, but Binding is gone. O_O Summoning now lasts 1 Dusk & 1 Dawn, it's resisted by Fx2 but Drain is 1/hit, and you can have a total of M*3 in Force summoned total at any time.

I like the change of Fx2 for the spirits resistance(I hope hits in drain is enough), I don't like the idea of multiple spirits without binding. I'd have kept it at 1 spirit summoned, I do like the M3 total force angle for a better way to get total spirits though.  Make binding harder than summoning like vs forcex3, let people bind up to that, which may remove the ability to summon if they have all of that bound.  Make the reagent cost for binding balanced. Seems like a crazy powerful buff to mages to allow x3 magic in force in spirits without a ritual and reagent cost.

Ixal

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« Reply #175 on: <05-05-19/1034:34> »
So in SR6 we will see mage 'riggers' who use F3 or F4 spirit swarms in case the that the new combat system makes lower force spirits still a danger.

And if not 12 F1 spirits can cause a heck of a distraction while you still have a F6 spirit for combat.
Or maybe even two. Time it right and you easily have 15 hours to heal any drain with a big window for the run.
« Last Edit: <05-05-19/1055:06> by Ixal »

PiXeL01

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« Reply #176 on: <05-05-19/1041:58> »
Speaking of Riggers, it seems the game is moving in the direction of making them pure mental based, since Intuition is used instead of reaction when jumped in. I like this a lot.
Now the question remains: does that mean logic is used instead of agility for jumped in gunnery tests? I surely hope so!
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AJCarrington

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« Reply #177 on: <05-05-19/1058:06> »
So someone's been summarising their readings of all sources into 1 document: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ZPN1-6xfGD9SV6xD85eaJIWoNq0NcsBdE3CQI8s5rJU/edit#heading=h.h701ncsxs7zi

Interestingly enough, Drain still exists, but Binding is gone. O_O Summoning now lasts 1 Dusk & 1 Dawn, it's resisted by Fx2 but Drain is 1/hit, and you can have a total of M*3 in Force summoned total at any time.

Excellent link, thanks for posting!

Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #178 on: <05-05-19/1112:34> »
Speaking of Riggers, it seems the game is moving in the direction of making them pure mental based, since Intuition is used instead of reaction when jumped in. I like this a lot.
Now the question remains: does that mean logic is used instead of agility for jumped in gunnery tests? I surely hope so!

I liked that in 4e, was not happy they removed it as a option in 5e. Made no damn sense your physical agility effected your ability to mentally control your guns. So, yes hopefully logic being mental agility means something in 6e.  Same for mages on the astral.

Duellist_D

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« Reply #179 on: <05-05-19/1238:46> »
So in SR6 we will see mage 'riggers' who use F3 or F4 spirit swarms in case the that the new combat system makes lower force spirits still a danger.

And if not 12 F1 spirits can cause a heck of a distraction while you still have a F6 spirit for combat.
Or maybe even two. Time it right and you easily have 15 hours to heal any drain with a big window for the run.

Sounds plausible.

With the difference between the fastest and the slowest end of the spectrum only being a single additional Major Action (aka attack) per Combat turn, overwhelming mass seems to be the way to go.
Which, incidentally shifts it all even more towards magerun, since having multiple (low level even) ghosts seems to be the way to go to get the biggest amount of Actions per player.
Not happy about this.